Run Run Away

Question:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open this by accident.

Not a problem. It just seems there’s been so many posts (not this one) implying that you need measured distances for speed work or hard efforts, I was trying to generate a little discussion on alternative methods, and you are one of the few here that I’ve seen post more from the VO2max, LT perspective as opposed to distances and paces. Thanks for the reply and the suggestions. For VO2max I like efforts that are 2:30 to 5 minutes in duration with equal recovery (times) at a jog.  I like to aim for 12 to 18 minutes of this in a session.  So a workout might be 5×3min (3min recovery).  The speed of the workout is the speed that I can average for a 6min all out run (this is based on some of the work of Veronique Billat).  An all out run lasting 6min will give you an approximation of the minimal velocity needed to elicit VO2max.

Can the feel for vVO2max be estimated by effort – what it feels like to run all out for 6 min? Or does it have a pct max hr or heart rate reserve that it usually corresponds to? I’ve got some notes suggesting it’s around 91% Karvonen reserve or 94% max hr. (I feel reasonably comfortable with my estimates of max hr and VT/LT based on experience – or at least something close enough that works for beginners.) While I do have some relatively easy sections of trails that might be suitable for a 6-min test, most of my runs are going to vary from dirt in summer to various levels of snow in winter (running on snowshoes again today after a couple weeks of just normal running in snow). My future races (or my best imitation of racing) will probably include both summer trail running, snowshoe running, and probably mt biking (duathlon) – and they usually involve hills, so the more I can accomodate that type training, the better off I am, I think. Treadmills to me are so different from my normal running, that if I used that for calibration, I’d have a hard time transferring that feel to actual running. Trying to find some way of meaningful calibration has always been an issue for me trying to do various tests. BTW, this  5×3 min (3 min recovery) is the same that Owen Anderson suggests for vVO2max workout (and I’m sure he got it some place else). For lactate threshold work, I aim for 20 to 60 min at a pace that one could maintain for one hour, all out.  For reference however I use 10K time.  So my favorite workout is 2×20min (5 min recovery) at 10K pace or a few seconds slower per mile.  You can also do 4×10min, 3×15min or continuous 40-60 min effort. Another VO2max workout that I have tried to do but find really hard to do running (easier cycling) is 30sec on/30sec off.  When you are "on" it is all out;  when you are "off" you are doing nothing (except maybe walking.  Oddly enough to many people that becomes an aerobic workout after the first couple of all out sprints.  I do not recommend this workout for any person I have ever worked with.  I know a guy who can do this workout for 20min.

wow! When I first looked at that, I thought it looked like OA’s suggestion for a vVO2max to do if you can’t handle the 5×3min – then I realized his is at vVO2max, and this is all out and not having as much recovery time as lactate stacker (1:2 work:recovery; all out during work). Then doing that for 20 min. Thanks again for your comments. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

–snip– <more snip A little trick you might try – if you take caffine – stop until race day then have some right before the race – will feel like rocket fuel.

i only drink one cup a day at the most anyway.  and i intend to run the 10K on an overnite empty stomach.  i’m not up to risking some gastro problem (like diarrhea) just yet. it starts early enough to just give me time to sleep in to 7 o’clock, get up, dressed, drive there and get in the start group.  really, not much time to eat anyway. and this means i can pig out after the race without worrying about consuming too many calories for the day.   another one of my concerns is belly fat.  i have a little (6 feet, 165 pounds) and don’t want more.  less is better. …thehick

Response:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open this by accident. For VO2max I like efforts that are 2:30 to 5 minutes in duration with equal recovery (times) at a jog.  I like to aim for 12 to 18 minutes of this in a session.  So a workout might be 5×3min (3min recovery).  The speed of the workout is the speed that I can average for a 6min all out run (this is based on some of the work of Veronique Billat).  An all out run lasting 6min will give you an approximation of the minimal velocity needed to elicit VO2max. For lactate threshold work, I aim for 20 to 60 min at a pace that one could maintain for one hour, all out.  For reference however I use 10K time.  So my favorite workout is 2×20min (5 min recovery) at 10K pace or a few seconds slower per mile.  You can also do 4×10min, 3×15min or continuous 40-60 min effort. Another VO2max workout that I have tried to do but find really hard to do running (easier cycling) is 30sec on/30sec off.  When you are "on" it is all out;  when you are "off" you are doing nothing (except maybe walking.  Oddly enough to many people that becomes an aerobic workout after the first couple of all out sprints.  I do not recommend this workout for any person I have ever worked with.  I know a guy who can do this workout for 20min.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <description of training snipped Sounds to me like you’ve got it under control! … Does it depend on whether it’s a vVO2max workout (work at vVO2max – determined by 6min test; 1:1 work:recovery ratio) or lactate stacker (work almost all out; 1:2 work:recovery ratio) or some other? thanks, but.  this is too complex for me at my current level of running knowledge.  it will come.  just not right now. …thehick Actually, I was trying to get a discussion started on different types of training for certain objectives and maybe get some comments from Sam. Oh, well. Yea, you can ignore the question Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

What it really boils down to is that on the treadmill, you’re running in a frame of reference that is moving relative to observers, but that makes very little difference. It confuses a lot of people, because they labor under the intuitive delusion that the Earth’s surface is some authoritative bench mark for what is and isn’t "really moving" when in fact it practice it’s just a convenient frame of reference most of the time.

Right. Another simple example that will help is those conveyer belts that you can sometimes see and use at airports. Since they move in your direction, if you get on one and stay stationary, you still move forward. If you were to start walking normally, you would out-pace someone who is walking on the floor next to you at the same pace you’re walking. On the other hand, if you were to start walking in the *opposite* direction of the conveyer belt, now you would have to walk faster than someone walking on the floor along-side you and headed in the same direction just to keep up with them; or you must still walk to remain at the same spot where your companion stands, were he to stop walking. The second case is akin to what takes place on the treadmill. Another example: would you say you are doing less work when walking *up* a *down*-escalator than if you were walking up regular stairs? If you answer yes, congratulations, you have graduated from Macel-logic school. All of which adds up to: if the device in question is opposing your direction of motion, you have to do work to over-come it, either to stay stationary or to move forward. In the stationary case, the amount of work you must put out equals that of the motor and is for all intents and purposes equal to the amount of work along a non-moving surface while moving forward at the same rate of the opposing motor. Concretely: 1) If the motor is going at the equivalent of 6.0 miles/hr, you must run at a rate of 6.0 miles/hr to stay put; otherwise you fly out the back side. 2) If you want to run on the road at 6.0 miles/hour, you must run at 6.0 miles/hr. Yeah, really. In either case, you must run at 6.0 miles/hr, and the amount of work you must do to accomplish this is the same. —