Run Run Away » running training

Forerunner Software

admin — Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Since a couple of month I’m using the Forerunner. It’s a nice piece of electronics, but the software that Garmin supplies isn’t exactly top. I’ve been searching on the net but I mainly came across mapping software. What I’m looking is mainly software to analyze my run(s). Anyone out who has come accross this kind of software? thanks. de groeten, martin http://home.planet.nl/~usa

Response:

You might take a look at the Yahoo Group Garminf. It’s farly active. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/garminf/ D. Wells Remove the numbers to mail me. Include the text "gore-in-2004" (without quotation marks) to ensure you make it past the spam filter.

Response:

Analyze your runs ??? To what end ? Or is the said analysis the end and the running the means ? Don’t you have something better to do ? Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Since a couple of month I’m using the Forerunner. It’s a nice piece of electronics, but the software that Garmin supplies isn’t exactly top. I’ve been searching on the net but I mainly came across mapping software. What I’m looking is mainly software to analyze my run(s). Anyone out who has come accross this kind of software? Analyze your runs ??? To what end ? Or is the said analysis the end and the running the means ? Don’t you have something better to do ?

yes. deleting this mail. de groeten, martin http://home.planet.nl/~usa

Response:

snip.. What I’m looking is mainly software to analyze my run(s). Anyone out who has come accross this kind of software? You might take a look at the Yahoo Group Garminf. It’s farly active. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/garminf/ D. Wells

tx, useful link! de groeten, martin http://home.planet.nl/~usa

Response:

Do you not want mapping software? Analyze your runs in what way? Here’s what I do (not sure if this is what you want to do): Download the tracks from Forerunner to PC using G7ToWin Save the tracks as a trk file Import the trk file into MapSource Since MapSource is not directly compatible with the Forerunner, you have to use another program (G7ToWin) to convert the file to a trk file so that MapSource can interpret it G7ToWin is free from http://www.gpsinformation.org/ronh/g7towin.htm. You can also convert the files to text files and import it into a spreadsheet. Phil M. — "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can’t live long enough to make them all yourself."

Boeing Niner Zero Niner AwwwYEAH!

admin — Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

That’s what I think. The Germans used disposable slave labor so bombing railyards just caused delays while they rounded up more prisoners to do the repairs, BUT, it can be argued, every factory that was built was X-number of fighter planes, tanks, bullets, ball bearings, rifles, submarines or other equipment that didn’t make it to the front line to reenforce the German forces. If the bombing campaign did nothing but curtail the growth or resupply of the German infantry and Panzer divisions, it saved American lives on the ground. I have photographs of bf109s destroyed in the factories by allied bombing raids. Those 109s never left the ground to shoot down folks like my grandfather, so calling the air campaign a complete failure is a disservice to not only the guys who endured the flak guns and FW-190s and Me262s in the air war, but the guys on the ground who didn’t have to face those Tigers, artillery, etc. -c

Response:

If it was effective, why did Germany manage to produce the greatest amount of war related materials late in the war when the Allied bombing was at it’s greatest effectiveness? Shouldn’t things have been the other way around? Corky Scott

What is your source for German production in the above statement?

Response:

Inhuman? Yes. Ineffective? No. If it was effective, why did Germany manage to produce the greatest amount of war related materials late in the war when the Allied bombing was at it’s greatest effectiveness? Shouldn’t things have been the other way around?

Well, for one thing, the bombing didn’t reach it’s peak until ‘44 either. Most British bombing prior to the adoption of the area bombing strategy in early 1942 was woefully ineffective. In addition, Bomber Command had only a little over 300 bombers by early ‘42, most of which were twins. 1942 saw a gradual buildup of squadrons in Bomber Command, the introduction of navaids such as "Gee", and the gradual shift to heavies such as the Lancaster and Stirling. The U.S. wasn’t even in the picture in ‘42 – we were still building bases and running training missions. Early ‘43 saw Bomber Command really beginning to work seriously on the area bombing campaign. The USAAF started bombing targets in France. By second quarter ‘43, the USAAF was seriously working on the problem of fighter escort, starting out with Spitfires borrowed from the RAF, but the worst losses ever suffered were taken in October of that year going after targets which were outside fighter range. The P-51 was brought into the theater in November, but it was not until 1944 that enough squadrons were available to be effective. One can almost say that German production fell just as soon as we were able to regularly put several hundred to a thousand plus bombers over their cities, but, of course, both the buildup of force and the damage increases were gradual. George Patterson None of us is as dumb as all of us.

Response:

The postwar strategic bombing assesement survey. It basically shredded the hallowed tenents that founded the US strategic bombing campaign. Here is the main conclusion: Aviation: "In 1944 the German air force is reported to have accepted a total of 39,807 aircraft of all types — compared with 8,295 in 1939, or 15,596 in 1942 before the plants suffered any attack." According to the report, almost none of the aircraft produced in 1944 were used in combat and some may have been imaginary. Armor production "reached its wartime peak in December 1944, when 1,854 tanks and armored vehicles were produced. This industry continued to have relatively high production through February 1945." Ball bearings: "There is no evidence that the attacks on the ball-bearing industry had any measurable effect on essential war production." Steel: The bombing greatly reduced production, but the resulting shortage had no contribution to the defeat. Consumer goods: "In the early years of the war — the soft war period for Germany — civilian consumption remained high. Germans continued to try for both guns and butter. The German people entered the period of the air war well stocked with clothing and other consumer goods. Although most consumer goods became increasingly difficult to obtain, Survey studies show that fairly adequate supplies of clothing were available for those who had been bombed out until the last stages of disorganization. Food, though strictly rationed, was in nutritionally adequate supply throughout the war. The Germans’ diet had about the same calories as the British." The survey concluded that one reason German production rose in so many areas was in part that the German economy did not go on a complete war footing until late 1942 and 1943. Up until then, factories had been on a single shift in many industries and the German economy was generally inefficient and not operating at full capacity. Please note, some aspects of the bombing were very effective. The Oil production bombing, more so than any other aspect, hugely curtailed the ability of the German military forces to fight or train to fight. Oil was not originally the top priority of the bomber forces. Primarily the problem with Strategic Bombing, as visualized by the leaders of the Army Air Forces, was that it was an untried concept. Hundreds of thousands of airmen, in both British forces and US forces died trying to accomplish something that turned out to be unattainable, at least in terms of 1940 to 45 technology. Of course, the bombing campaign affected the outcome of the war. It’s just that the manner of the affect wasn’t how the leaders designed it. They thought that if they could destroy the war making industries, Germany would loose it’s ability to wage war. That part did not happen. But Germany spent so much time and effort attempting to stop the bombing campaign, that their ground forces suffered. The skies over Germany became a charnel house for the German aviators and without an effective air force, the German army lost a lot of effectiveness. Germany withdrew enormous numbers of flack guns from the Russian front to ring their cities for protection. This proved dire for the bombers, but also reduced the effectiveness of the German army to counter the hundreds of thousands of tanks the Russians now sent against their forces. In the end, hard as this is to swallow, the huge Russian armies likely would have ground out a victory which would have been even more costly for them than it was, were it not for the air war against Germany. Against the Japanese, any likeness to precision bombing was abandoned when the concept broke against the realities of weather and B-29 maladies. The Strategic Bombing Survey, as you can imagine, became as politicized a document and process as is humanly possible. The Army Air Force was already planning to become an independent military force at that time and made all kinds of interpretations from the survey that they felt justified their existance and the concept of an independent air force. George Ball and John Kenneth Galbreath were members of the bombing survey. Galbreath in particular adamantly argued that the strategic bombing of Germany was far less effective than trumpeted by the leaders of the Army Air Corps. The Air Corps members, of course, disagreed. Corky Scott

Response:

Inhuman? Yes. Ineffective? No.

Response:

Granted, I’m no WWII historian, so I don’t know how the analysis comes out, but…

You cannot simply look at the German production numbers and claim that because they were higher at one point in time than an earlier point in time, the bombing was ineffective. It’s entirely possible that their production would have been even higher than it was, if not for the bombing. If you use the reasoning that production would be constant, and you can judge the effectiveness of the bombing by the production change over time, then the conclusion one must arrive at is that the bombing actually *helped* Germany’s production. Obviously that’s not the case. So, given that Germany took steps to increase production in spite of the bombing, it’s not possible to say just by looking at the total production numbers that the bombing wasn’t effective. You need to look at what Germany’s production would have been without the bombing. That’s where someone like you, with your obviously greater interest and time spent researching the events of WWII comes in. I don’t know what Germany’s production would have been without the bombing. That said, assuming the bombs did manage to hit any component of Germany’s production stream, it seems to me it should be taken as obvious that the bombs hurt the production stream, and that production would have been even higher had the bombing not occurred. Pete

Response:

Read the bit under "Effectiveness". While the bombing was wildly inaccurate (this was known at the time, that’s why tactics were switched to area bombing) it was relentless, with the British bombing at night, the Americans in the day.

It’s also relevant to point out that the allies DID aim for and strike specific targets such as sub pens, shipyards and heavy water plants that would have, in fact, impaired the german war machine more than bombing an oilfield, railyard or even a ball bearing factory. U-boats didn’t get built overnight, and the strikes on the heavy water facilities would be more historically noteworthy, perhaps, had they not happened, allowing that technology to develop. The 96th sent half its group out looking for the battleship Scharnhorst, but couldn’t find it through the overcast so IIRC they bombed Gdynia, Poland instead. -c

Response:

Read the bit under "Effectiveness". While the bombing was wildly inaccurate (this was known at the time, that’s why tactics were switched to area bombing) ….

And, as Bert Harris pointed out (with tongue firmly in cheek), the Americans also opted for area bombing just as soon as they had a big enough bomb. George Patterson None of us is as dumb as all of us.

Response:

PS, the Germans had no need for something as complicated as the Norden bombsight because they did not bomb from great heights nor did they posses a heavy bomber. Their bombers were for the most part, medium battlefield support aircraft and dive bombers.

This may have been how they started out, but it wasn’t how they came to be used. The only reason that Germany didn’t produce heavy 4 engined bombers was their thought that it was more beneficial to produce twice the number of twin engined ones, the limiting factor at the time being engines. Oh, just a quick reference, the inaccuracy of the bombing was detailed in the Butt report of August 1941. http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/bombercommand/buttreport.aspx The report was criticised at the time for potentially lowering morale within Bomber Command, but it turned out to be what was needed. As well as switching to area bombardment, new ways were found to increase bomb accuracy, and some great technological achievents came about. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/air_war_bombers_02.shtml http://modena.intergate.ca/business/boport/cbctv/ Bomber Command’s attacks, initially a mere nuisance, became what Hitler’s armaments minister, Albert Speer, called "the greatest battle that we lost." On May 15, 1940, 93 bombers set out for the Krupp works at Essen. In a later asssessment it was calculated that the proportion of bombs that actually it the vast factories was 3 percent. In contrast, in a massive attack by 705 "heavies" on July 25, 1943, marked by Oboe-equipped Pathfinders, the proportion was assessed at 96 percent. Paul

Response:

Arthur Harris insisted right up to the end of the war that his bombers bomb city centers as the most effective method of bringing the war to the Germans and shorten it, if not cause them to surrender. He was mistaken. For instance, when Hamburg was bombed in late 1943, Bomber Command managed to create the worlds first "firestorm" with it’s bombing tactics. The blaze wiped out the center of Hamburg and killed many thousands of people. Gale force winds feeding the raging fire were so powerful they literally ripped babies from mothers arms and wafted them into the blaze. But did the damage halt Hamburg from producing war materials? Maybe for a week or two.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Strategic_bombing Read the bit under "Effectiveness". While the bombing was wildly inaccurate (this was known at the time, that’s why tactics were switched to area bombing) it was relentless, with the British bombing at night, the Americans in the day. German survivors said it had a huge affect on them…the couldn’t work effectively and were constantly tired and weary. There was a huge diversion of resources. Production may have increased, but the bombing ensured that the "new" German weapons of mass destruction didn’t come on-line or were severely limited. One of the aircraft under development allegedly went to South America (or the plans did) after the war only to be copied (allegedly) by the Soviets. This became the Mig 15. The relentless bombing was all part of the "total war" that was being unleashed upon Germany. http://makeashorterlink.com/?F30934F98 This makes interesting reading if anyone has the time to read it! Inhuman? Yes. Ineffective? No. Paul

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arthur Harris insisted right up to the end of the war that his bombers bomb city centers as the most effective method of bringing the war to the Germans and shorten it, if not cause them to surrender. The really sad part was he had the example of the London Blitz right in front of him. Bombing London did nothing to shake civilian resolve, and probably had the opposite result. for a week or two. A lot of people lost their jobs and their homes because what got destroyed was center city businesses and residences, The British called this ‘Baedeker Bombing,’ i.e., targeting city centers where all the tourist attractions were located.

This was the German tactic: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Baedeker%20Blitz http://modena.intergate.ca/business/boport/cbctv/ Quote: By 1941 cities throughout Europe had been bombed by the Luftwaffe, and helpless refugees had been machine-gunned from the air. These missions were flown with the sole objective of terrorising the civilian population, and breaking any will to resist. In 1940-42 the Luftwaffe devastated London, Coventry, Southampton, Bristol, Plymouth, Sheffield, Liverpool,Cardiff, Glasgow and many other British cities. From April 1942 its raids on Britain were specifically redirected against cities distinguished by three stars in the Baedeker guidebook as being "of outstanding historic or artistic interest." The "three stars" thing is a quote from Nazi propagandist Baron Gustav Braun von Sturm who said: "We shall go out and bomb every building in Britain marked with three stars in the Baedeker Guide." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1892714.stm Paul

Response:

Zillions of them were sold as surplus around the world.

That is true. Here in Portland there was a guy who bought one to use as the roof of his gas station. He bought one as surplus for $5000, flew it into Portland and wrecked in on landing. The government felt bad for him, and gave him a second one at no cost. It’s still there, except they took the nose off to restore it, so now there’s a nose-less B-17 sitting over what used to be gas station pump islands. -c

Response:

There’s a lot of irony here: The British, by the end of the war, could actually target precision targets with greater accuracy at night than the US bombers could while bombing during daylight from high altitude, but they did not, except for a very few missions, do so. Arthur Harris insisted right up to the end of the war that his bombers bomb city centers as the most effective method of bringing the war to the Germans and shorten it, if not cause them to surrender. He was mistaken. For instance, when Hamburg was bombed in late 1943, Bomber Command managed to create the worlds first "firestorm" with it’s bombing tactics. The blaze wiped out the center of Hamburg and killed many thousands of people. Gale force winds feeding the raging fire were so powerful they literally ripped babies from mothers arms and wafted them into the blaze. But did the damage halt Hamburg from producing war materials? Maybe for a week or two. A lot of people lost their jobs and their homes because what got destroyed was center city businesses and residences, but they were for the most part not producing war materials. The survivors now turned to the factories which were barely touched, and worked there instead. For the remainder of the war, Hamburg continued to contribute mightily to the war machine. Harris thought the decimation of Hamburg was a great victory. He’d show visitors stereo pictures of gutted German cities, implying that the roofless buildings indicated how effective his force of bombers was. He called this type of bombing "dehousing" the German workers and thought that they’d have to leave the cities to survive. Most of the people who lost their homes did not die, they survived and turned to the factories for work and shelter regardless Harris’s conjecture. The British bomber pilots and crew suffered enormously for their effort. Too bad the concept was so flawed. Corky Scott

Response:

The really sad part was he had the example of the London Blitz right in front of him. Bombing London did nothing to shake civilian resolve, and probably had the opposite result. for a week or two. A lot of people lost their jobs and their homes because what got destroyed was center city businesses and residences,

The British called this ‘Baedeker Bombing,’ i.e., targeting city centers where all the tourist attractions were located. but they were for the most part not producing war materials. The survivors now turned to the factories which were barely touched, and

I talked to survivors of the war in Berlin who told me the homeless would pick the longest subway route (between Spandau and Gruenau) and ride all night for a few pennies. The British bomber pilots and crew suffered enormously for their effort. Too bad the concept was so flawed.

The blame for those deaths should include the blunder of sending out the bombers with no fighter protection. Had the allies invested a little more in creating long-range fighters, this would have been quite different.

Response:

Like most legends, the accuracy of the Norden bombsight has been hugely overblown.

But it was an exquisite piece of machine work. The gyroscopes were things of beauty, that could run for half an hour after the power was disconnected. That did not stop the AAF not only from claiming that they exclusively targeted factories and war related industries only, not city centers, even though that was patently false. They also claimed that strategic bombing effectively shortened the war. This despite the fact that Germany’s wartime military production ramped up throughout the war and actually peaked in late 1944 at the absolute height of daylight and nightime bombing.

They did what they could to target factories, but the technology to do this accurately just wasn’t there. American bombing was certainly "precision bombing" compared to the British, nighttime bombing that aimed for easily located targets like large cities. The leaders of the Air Force believed in the fallacy of strategic bombing throughout the 50’s and 60’s and a case I think could be made that they continue to overbelieve in the effectiveness of bombing even today.

When the man who jumped naked into a cactus patch was asked why he would do such a thing, he answered, "it seemed like a good idea at the time." It wasn’t until after WWII, when the bomb damage could be accurately assessed, that the shortcomings of bombing became apparent. In the fifties, strategic bombing meant nuking whole cities, and the horror of that just might have kept the Cold War cold, so it may have been quite successful indeed. By the sixties, "smart bombs" were coming into existence, and nowadays armies can hit individual buildings from the other side of the world, so it’s not anywhere near the same as it was in the forties.

Response:

but it’s sad that the B-17 airframe couldn’t stick around longer in greater civilian duties. I think they’re one of the most majestic airplanes ever flown.

Well, it was an old design even during the war. B-17’s were commonly used in firebombing until the 1970’s. Zillions of them were sold as surplus around the world. I, for one, thought it remarkable that people would fly in a plane where the official starting procedure required a crewman to stand next to each engine with a fire extinguisher. I think we should all marvel that there are so many of them still flying. How many other planes designed in the 1930’s are still around?

Response:

Coolest one I ever saw was the guppy, cruising down the Hudson corridor at, oh, 600-700 feet. That’s also a view not to be forgotten.

They had a Guppy or SuperGuppy (used to haul Atlas rockets) at the Tillamook Air Museum. Can you believe the coastal wind PUSHED the airplane against the blimp hangar? Minor damage, but still amazing. -c

Response:

I’m thankful I didn’t have to fly one in combat. B-17’s are beautiful airplanes but during WWII, they were big slow targets.

Particularly for flak. Every B-17 vet I’ve ever talked to (dozens) said they’d have rather shoot it out with the Luftwaffe than ride through a flak storm on any given day. Over Germany, they generally got both, sometimes simultaneously. All those guys could count the number of people lost and calculate their chances for staying alive till their tour was over, they weren’t good. Seven missions was the average, which is about a month. 25, then 30, then 35 were the requirement to rotate. They had the highest casualty percentages for the allies according to some sources, although I know one veteran who nearly completed two tours. (Had a nut shot off.) The B-24 is a magnifent airplane and worthy of a better place in history, but it’s sad that the B-17 airframe couldn’t stick around longer in greater civilian duties. I think they’re one of the most majestic airplanes ever flown. For Christmas, though, I’d settle for a B-25 or even a P-38. BTW, they gave the bomber visit good press on the news last night. -c

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And the pictures used to fascinate me: they had an octagonal "cut-out" of the nose of the aircraft. This was to prevent our enemies from examining purloined pictures to get the details of the Norden bombsite, which was one of the keys to our bombing successes. Flash forward to around 1975… I was working as a disk jockey. We frequently received electronics surplus catalogues at the station, and I was flipping through one while the records were playing. One of the hot items being offered was Norden bombsites, for only $29.95. Interesting, but I really didn’t have any use for one. A couple of hours later I grabbed the copy for a newscast off the teletype, sat down, and started reading. At the end of the copy there were always a few very short stories to enable us to properly time our newscasts. I was running a little short so I started reading these filler stories. And one of these filler stories turned out to be interesting: it seems that one of the men who was part of a plot to steal the Norden bombsight during the War had just been released from prison. I thought there was a certain irony that this guy had spent more than 30 years in prison for trying to steal something I could now buy for less than $30!

Like most legends, the accuracy of the Norden bombsight has been hugely overblown. The Norden was developed prior to WWII and it was fiendishly difficult to manufacture due to the high number of close tolerance fittings, bearings and shafts that went into it. Plus, it was extremely intolerant of dust and shocks which are endemic in a combat zone of course, not to mention the constant upkeep it required while in the combat zone, which was limited in that there were only so many expert technicians and a lot of sights. In addition, the training for the use of the sight occured in the desert southwest where flying weather was nearly perfect. The bombing runs were conducted at altitudes normally lower than 10,000 feet. So the target was visible to the crews for a long time during the approach, the altitude at which they bombed was very low compared to the height they would bomb from in actual combat, and nothing disturbed the bomb run. In actual combat, the heavy bomber crews found things VERY different. They bombed from *at least* 22,000 feet (many times they were higher than that), they almost never actually saw the primary target due to wretched northern European weather and with the Norden you actually had to SEE the target in order to hit it, they were opposed by vicious fighter attacks which disrupted the formations not to mention shooting down numerous bombers, the flak barrages were often deadly accurate and unavoidable, and the bombs themselves were not aerodynamically very stable and often wafted away from their intended target. In addition there was the major problem with daylight bombing over Europe: If every bomber bombed individually as per training, that meant each bomber had to approach the target singly, which was obviously not going to happen as it would string the bombers out for hundreds of miles and leave them all vulnerable to fighters and flack. So the bombers bombed from formation. But while in formation, the bombardiers could not all do their own bomb runs because once the bomb run was initiated, the bombardier flew the airplane through a linkup with the auto pilot and the bombsight. You can’t have each bombardier flying his own bombrun while in tight formation or there would have been many midair collisions. So only the lead bombardier flew the bomb run. Every other bomber in the formation dropped when they saw the lead bomber’s bombs go, or upon radio signal. The accuracy of the drop depended on the skill of the lead bombardier (if he was still alive at that point, the Germans pointedly attacked the lead aircraft in all formations), and how tight the formation was at the time of the group drop. In the meantime the Germans were making smoke upwind of the city, and the first bomb strikes often caused enough smoke to obscure the actual target so that the follow on squadrons had to somewhat blindly toggle into the smoke. Even when the bombers actually accurately hit the intended target, it turned out that machine tools of they day were extremely resistant to blast damage. The Germans also turned out to be extremely good at repairing damage and renuing production. They also got very good at dispersing the factories and moving them underground. The result of all this, and more, was that the heavy bombing campaign was far less effective at doing what the Army Air Force leaders postulated they could do at the outset of the war. The bottom line is that accurate strategic bombing, whether it be daylight or night, visually or radar guided, did not occur except in a few very isolated cases, during WWII. That did not stop the AAF not only from claiming that they exclusively targeted factories and war related industries only, not city centers, even though that was patently false. They also claimed that strategic bombing effectively shortened the war. This despite the fact that Germany’s wartime military production ramped up throughout the war and actually peaked in late 1944 at the absolute height of daylight and nightime bombing. The leaders of the Air Force believed in the fallacy of strategic bombing throughout the 50’s and 60’s and a case I think could be made that they continue to overbelieve in the effectiveness of bombing even today. Corky Scott PS, the Germans had no need for something as complicated as the Norden bombsight because they did not bomb from great heights nor did they posses a heavy bomber. Their bombers were for the most part, medium battlefield support aircraft and dive bombers.

Response:

So close I could see the glint off the plexiglass turret and the black traction tape and red gas caps on her olive wings. 60 years ago, I’d be thankful I wasn’t German. Today I am simply thankful.

I’m thankful I didn’t have to fly one in combat. B-17’s are beautiful airplanes but during WWII, they were big slow targets. The Germans swatted them out of the sky in huge numbers. Several missions resulted in 60 airplanes being shot down out of about 300 that made the mission. During another mission in which more bombers sortied, over 80 were knocked down. That era is gone forever. All those guys could count the number of people lost and calculate their chances for staying alive till their tour was over, they weren’t good. Yet most went anyway. Some didn’t, a lot of men cracked up psychologically and a number of bombers were flown to neutral countries to be interned rather than complete the mission or bail out over enemy territory. Can’t say I blame them, the psychological stress of having to sit their and be shot at without the ability to maneuver to escape the fire must have been enormous. Overall, some 12,000 heavy bombers from both Britain and the US were shot down during the war. Mull that number over for a second, it represents an incredible effort and loss of life. Corky Scott

Response:

My Dad’s brother was one of those "swatted out of the sky". "His" plane was a B-17G, "Quarterback", but for some reason he was flying "Plain Mister Yank" IIRC, when he went down. I was born well after WW II, so I never knew him, but we had some uniforms, his medals, and a few pictures. And the pictures used to fascinate me: they had an octagonal "cut-out" of the nose of the aircraft. This was to prevent our enemies from examining purloined pictures to get the details of the Norden bombsite, which was one of the keys to our bombing successes. Flash forward to around 1975… I was working as a disk jockey. We frequently received electronics surplus catalogues at the station, and I was flipping through one while the records were playing. One of the hot items being offered was Norden bombsites, for only $29.95. Interesting, but I really didn’t have any use for one. A couple of hours later I grabbed the copy for a newscast off the teletype, sat down, and started reading. At the end of the copy there were always a few very short stories to enable us to properly time our newscasts. I was running a little short so I started reading these filler stories. And one of these filler stories turned out to be interesting: it seems that one of the men who was part of a plot to steal the Norden bombsight during the War had just been released from prison. I thought there was a certain irony that this guy had spent more than 30 years in prison for trying to steal something I could now buy for less than $30!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So close I could see the glint off the plexiglass turret and the black traction tape and red gas caps on her olive wings. 60 years ago, I’d be thankful I wasn’t German. Today I am simply thankful. I’m thankful I didn’t have to fly one in combat. B-17’s are beautiful airplanes but during WWII, they were big slow targets. The Germans swatted them out of the sky in huge numbers. Several missions resulted in 60 airplanes being shot down out of about 300 that made the mission. During another mission in which more bombers sortied, over 80 were knocked down. That era is gone forever. All those guys could count the number of people lost and calculate their chances for staying alive till their tour was over, they weren’t good. Yet most went anyway. Some didn’t, a lot of men cracked up psychologically and a number of bombers were flown to neutral countries to be interned rather than complete the mission or bail out over enemy territory. Can’t say I blame them, the psychological stress of having to sit their and be shot at without the ability to maneuver to escape the fire must have been enormous. Overall, some 12,000 heavy bombers from both Britain and the US were shot down during the war. Mull that number over for a second, it represents an incredible effort and loss of life. Corky Scott

Response:

Coolest one I ever saw was the guppy, cruising down the Hudson corridor at, oh, 600-700 feet. That’s also a view not to be forgotten. Jose — (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Response:

About 6 weeks ago, I was at CNH (Claremont, NH) when a plane called in to announce an over-fly. The transmission went something like: "Claremont traffic, Liberator XXXX is 5 miles to the east, overflying the field at 1000′." I sat and contemplated just what a "Liberator" was, since the only one I was familiar with was the B24. In a few short seconds, a beautiful B-24 swept in over the airport, then headed north. Wish I had my camera. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today shooting ILS approaches at McMinnville, with the blinder on, I had a close encounter. There was a lot of chatter and people stepping on each other, but I heard one aircraft rumbling calling out over McMinnville looking for the traffic on approach (me). Didn’t catch his call numbers. A few minutes later I was flying outbound from the runway at 2,400 and Delcy said "I have the traffic…whoa! That’s a BIG ASS airplane" and then (’cause I was under the hood and couldn’t see out the window) "Whoa! Look at that! What’s it doing here?" My eyeballs threatened to slither out of their sockets, down my cheeks and out the window, so I raised the blinder and looked… A camera in my head went *snap* and the view was unforgettable. At ten o’clock low to my nose, against the valley floor, was the B-17 Nine-O-Nine. Her red tail and wingtips cut across the yellow and green fields and the black, bending river below, and she passed low and slow; probably a thousand feet, along the instrument approach. So close I could see the glint off the plexiglass turret and the black traction tape and red gas caps on her olive wings. 60 years ago, I’d be thankful I wasn’t German. Today I am simply thankful. We aborted the approach and circled high because she was too close. I tailgated a B-17 Flying Fortress! And didn’t spazz out and auger the plane! She passed around and I got back under the hood. I was flying in the McMinnville pattern with a B-17 and a I had a damned blinder on! She was right out there, and I could not see it. NNNOOOooooo!!! I was freaking out ’cause I’d just seen the Joe DiMaggio of warbirds, AND I still had to turn 180 degrees and fly the approach down to the runway. It turned and banked away, and we were down at about the same altitude then, and her red tail sliced across the landscape again like a bloody fin. Back under the hood and headed for the Newburg VOR, Delcy covered up the directional indicator and the artificial horizon. Harsh. Did one form of approach for Aurora, (nailed it), circled around and did the instrument landing approach. Passed the airfield at about 500′ and she says "Whoa! There’s that airplane again. There’s two of them!" Down on the tarmac at Aurora airfield (next to I-5 south of Newburg) are the WWII B-17 Nine-O-Nine and the B-24 Dragon and Its Tail. It is my not so humble opinion that Nine-O-Nine is the single most beautiful flying aircraft in the entire world. It’s the very same airplane that we rode on with my grandfather on June 17, 1993, which was the happiest I remember seeing him and the first time he’d ridden one since crashing into a French countryside 50 years previous. For years, somehow, the airplane and I always cross paths, but this is the first time I’ve ever seen one flying from above. Awesome! -c

–

Response:

Very cool! Same B-17 and B-24 that were buzzing my house at 1000 ft. just prior to the Memorial day weekend. I don’t know how many trips I made to the front and back yard when I heard that wonderful growl of multiple radial engines. I had a nice surprise last year when (unknown to me) they were at my home airport after I’d come back from an overnight xc flight. I go to enter the pattern and turning from the 45 for a left downwind, I notice both planes on the ramp. Not something you see every day. Of course, I just had to hang around the airport after I gassed up the plane and tied it down. Glad you got to peek out form under the hood and catch the action. — Jack Allison PP-ASEL, IA Student "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Response:

Today shooting ILS approaches at McMinnville, with the blinder on, I had a close encounter. There was a lot of chatter and people stepping on each other, but I heard one aircraft rumbling calling out over McMinnville looking for the traffic on approach (me). Didn’t catch his call numbers. A few minutes later I was flying outbound from the runway at 2,400 and Delcy said "I have the traffic…whoa! That’s a BIG ASS airplane" and then (’cause I was under the hood and couldn’t see out the window) "Whoa! Look at that! What’s it doing here?" My eyeballs threatened to slither out of their sockets, down my cheeks and out the window, so I raised the blinder and looked… A camera in my head went *snap* and the view was unforgettable. At ten o’clock low to my nose, against the valley floor, was the B-17 Nine-O-Nine. Her red tail and wingtips cut across the yellow and green fields and the black, bending river below, and she passed low and slow; probably a thousand feet, along the instrument approach. So close I could see the glint off the plexiglass turret and the black traction tape and red gas caps on her olive wings. 60 years ago, I’d be thankful I wasn’t German. Today I am simply thankful. We aborted the approach and circled high because she was too close. I tailgated a B-17 Flying Fortress! And didn’t spazz out and auger the plane! She passed around and I got back under the hood. I was flying in the McMinnville pattern with a B-17 and a I had a damned blinder on! She was right out there, and I could not see it. NNNOOOooooo!!! I was freaking out ’cause I’d just seen the Joe DiMaggio of warbirds, AND I still had to turn 180 degrees and fly the approach down to the runway. It turned and banked away, and we were down at about the same altitude then, and her red tail sliced across the landscape again like a bloody fin. Back under the hood and headed for the Newburg VOR, Delcy covered up the directional indicator and the artificial horizon. Harsh. Did one form of approach for Aurora, (nailed it), circled around and did the instrument landing approach. Passed the airfield at about 500′ and she says "Whoa! There’s that airplane again. There’s two of them!" Down on the tarmac at Aurora airfield (next to I-5 south of Newburg) are the WWII B-17 Nine-O-Nine and the B-24 Dragon and Its Tail. It is my not so humble opinion that Nine-O-Nine is the single most beautiful flying aircraft in the entire world. It’s the very same airplane that we rode on with my grandfather on June 17, 1993, which was the happiest I remember seeing him and the first time he’d ridden one since crashing into a French countryside 50 years previous. For years, somehow, the airplane and I always cross paths, but this is the first time I’ve ever seen one flying from above. Awesome! -c

Response:

What do you all think about High Intensity Interval Training as opposed to long duration jogging

admin — Mon, 07 Jun 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

High intensity training can be very beneficial, as long as you do very slowly.

Would that be Special High Intesity Training or S#IT for short?

Response:

However, it may have limited relevance. For me, as a competitive runner, I don’t really care if one training modality is "more efficient" than another, as long as I’ve got time to train. No opinion on whether HIIT is actually more efficient or not. But, if one is more than a one-dimensional runner, a more efficient mode of training for a given goal could be quite valuable in allowing a person more time for the other activities they find valuable in their lives (music, gardening, dancing, time with family, hours at work, whatever),

Not necessarily. If someone enjoys running, they might actually be interested in spending some time running. A reasonable training load doesn’t require a heavy time commitment. I only train a little over 1hr a day, and if you’re even *thinking* of training as much as I do, you’re probably serious enough to put in that much time without a second thought. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I usually 2-4 times a week for about 80 minutes. LOLOLOL You punkass bitch! You aren’t even a real runner. I do a minimum of 90 minutes A DAY!

Ok, that’s your masturbation routine nailed down. How about telling us how much running you do. Edward

Response:

Ok, that’s your masturbation routine nailed down. How about telling us how much running you do. Edward

That’s your wet dream you homo. You wish you could still get your tiny boy hard without viagra, butt butts just don’t do it for you like they used to. Now try running you punk, one hour a day minimum. Frickin’ punkass jogger idiots…

Response:

However, it may have limited relevance. For me, as a competitive runner, I don’t really care if one training modality is "more efficient" than another, as long as I’ve got time to train.

No opinion on whether HIIT is actually more efficient or not. But, if one is more than a one-dimensional runner, a more efficient mode of training for a given goal could be quite valuable in allowing a person more time for the other activities they find valuable in their lives (music, gardening, dancing, time with family, hours at work, whatever), or at least in slightly increasing the recovery time available between workouts. IMHO. YMMV. — Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/ #include

Response:

High intensity training can be very beneficial, as long as you do very slowly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ trying to look for counter-points to this form of training and what better place to look then a runner’s ng. I’m talking about training where you sprint your ass off for 20 seconds, walk or jog of 15 seconds and sprint again, doing this for about 5 minutes. Of course including few minutes of warm up and cool down. I’ve read that in experiments where they compare both styles of exercise that those who exercise in HIIT gain not only of 10% anaerobic endurance but also 14% of aerobic endurance, meanwhile the medium intensity high duration people only gained 10% in aerobic endurance and naught in anaerobic. I have been running for a few months, and do notice an overall increase in endurance when I play other sports, but stairs still suck the life out of me as much as they did even before I use to run. I usually 2-4 times a week for about 80 minutes. This is what I have read on HIIT so far… http://www.buildleanmuscle.com/interval-training.html http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/justin6.htm http://www.cs.unm.edu/~wneumann/files/guerilla_cardio.pdf Thanks

Response:

Some of us might know about it (indeed, since you’ve posted this and similar dozens of times, anyone who doesn’t should be bashed about with the clue stick) However, it may have limited relevance. For me, as a competitive runner, I don’t really care if one training modality is "more efficient" than another, as long as I’ve got time to train. I think these claims of efficiency are misleading anyway, unless one wishes to argue that one can/should sprint without a decent warmup. I also am not very interested in whether one training modality is "better" than another. I am more interested in setting up a *training program*. Since I can include multiple training modalities in the overall program, I’m more interested in how the different types of training collaborate to produce the greatest possible overall effect. I’m also interested in big-picture issues like avoiding injury, periodisation, and of course, how the program translates into real-world track performances. In light of this, I’m interested in using a program that I’m convinced can produce good race performances, while minimising stress on the body. All-out sprinting maximises stress (especially if you don’t warm up!), it doesn’t minimise it. In other words, these results are no doubt interesting to academics (and hucksters in the mickey-mouse body-building/fad-diet world), but I don’t see this stuff helping me on the roads. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

You might have figured out by now that distance runners are not particularly well versed on this subject. I think this is because the running publications are dominated by marathon types. People run marathons because they’re slow (compared to, say, milers), so they don’t like all-out speed, so the running mags don’t write about this, thus the average runner doesn’t hear about this. There is a lot of physiology research published on high intensity training in the past few years, and if you want the straight facts, you have to read it for yourself. The real basis is the research that you’ve already heard about done by Izumi Tabata (1996) and originally published in MSSE. Some more stuff that is more on the technical side: http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0101/cf.pdf http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/6/2138 http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content-nw/full/90/6/2019/T2 The key point that everyone (except maybe Sam) doesn’t seem to get is that intermittent training is high intensity anerobic training for AEROBIC IMPROVEMENT. The key, here, seems to be training that improves the power of the glycolytic system. This involves maximum intensity training that lasts for 6-30 seconds. Sprint training lasting less than 6 seconds has had no effect on citric synthase, and running longer than 30 seconds stresses the maximum capacity of the glycolytic system (anerobic capacity), thus not allowing the ability to recover quickly. The HIIT training that seems to work best is running repeats of 6-20 second all-out with short rest (10-60 seconds) or repeats of 20-30 seconds with rest of 2-5 minutes (or more). Comparing High Intensity Training (HIT) and Low Intensity Training (LIT), the actual improvement in physiological measurements in the papers that I’ve seen is about like this: Training VO2max citric synthase Glut4 LIT +17-22% +40-45% +90% HIT +7-14% +36-40% +85% The actual training volume of HIT or HIIT is at least an order of magnitude lower, so the training is far more efficient, with the exception of VO2max improvements (this may be a volume effect). So it seems that one will get a better overall effect by doing some more conventional aerobic training (for instance 30-60 minutes at 80-85% heart rate a few times a week) before the high intensity stuff. So you need some slower aerobic training for maximum benefit (to raise VO2max) at some time in your training. However, VO2max plateaus very early in one’s running career, so for someone that has done VO2max training in the past, it is not clear that doing this in conjuction with the high intensity training actually carries a benefit. Noakes gives a rather small potential VO2max gain for people that have been doing running training, regardless of the mileage increase. Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!" –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

Response:

Gaining areobic endurance is great for sprints and short events and useless for marathons and such. You refer to a few body building sites so do you need aerobic endurance for that? There’s a Covert Bailey book or two that recommends some intervals with intensity just for general fitness (usual disclaimer: medical check from your doctor first if you’re a blob/couch potato/etc.). Apparently something to do with the anaerobic exercise helping to prevent the loss of muscle mass with age. I don’t recall if there was a science-backed bibliography in these books or not.

You’re in an area that is out of my sphere of knowledge. I subscribe to the use it or lose it idea. I have all the muscle mass I need to get me through my usual 5 to 13 mile runs and as long as I can still keep running that should be all I need. Above and beyond that is news to me. But even the marathon training books I’ve perused at the library recommend some small percentage of interval reps (or fartlek[sp?]), for working on running form (finishing kick?) if nothing else.

Yes marathoners of all abilities can benefit from some form of speedworkout. But it should be evaluated in terms of does the work outweigh the benefit. Everybody has their own motivations but there are many non-competitive mathoners who really don’t need to have a finishing kick in a marathon. But the improvement in running form could be a positive though. my $0.02 Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IMHO. YMMV.

Response:

I usually 2-4 times a week for about 80 minutes.

LOLOLOL You punkass bitch! You aren’t even a real runner. I do a minimum of 90 minutes A DAY!

Response:

A pragmatic reason to do intensity is that most people have days where time is short so they should run "harder" to expend the same amount of energy or for a specific training stimulus. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gaining areobic endurance is great for sprints and short events and useless for marathons and such. You refer to a few body building sites so do you need aerobic endurance for that? There’s a Covert Bailey book or two that recommends some intervals with intensity just for general fitness (usual disclaimer: medical check from your doctor first if you’re a blob/couch potato/etc.). Apparently something to do with the anaerobic exercise helping to prevent the loss of muscle mass with age. I don’t recall if there was a science-backed bibliography in these books or not. But even the marathon training books I’ve perused at the library recommend some small percentage of interval reps (or fartlek[sp?]), for working on running form (finishing kick?) if nothing else. IMHO. YMMV. — Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/ #include

Response:

do you train on stairs??? i am sure you have heard race on hill?? trains on hill!! train fast – run fast train slow – run slow i allternate days fo fast adn slow plodizlla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ trying to look for counter-points to this form of training and what better place to look then a runner’s ng. I’m talking about training where you sprint your ass off for 20 seconds, walk or jog of 15 seconds and sprint again, doing this for about 5 minutes. Of course including few minutes of warm up and cool down. I’ve read that in experiments where they compare both styles of exercise that those who exercise in HIIT gain not only of 10% anaerobic endurance but also 14% of aerobic endurance, meanwhile the medium intensity high duration people only gained 10% in aerobic endurance and naught in anaerobic. I have been running for a few months, and do notice an overall increase in endurance when I play other sports, but stairs still suck the life out of me as much as they did even before I use to run. I usually 2-4 times a week for about 80 minutes. This is what I have read on HIIT so far… http://www.buildleanmuscle.com/interval-training.html http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/justin6.htm http://www.cs.unm.edu/~wneumann/files/guerilla_cardio.pdf Thanks

Response:

Gaining areobic endurance is great for sprints and short events and useless for marathons and such. You refer to a few body building sites so do you need aerobic endurance for that?

There’s a Covert Bailey book or two that recommends some intervals with intensity just for general fitness (usual disclaimer: medical check from your doctor first if you’re a blob/couch potato/etc.). Apparently something to do with the anaerobic exercise helping to prevent the loss of muscle mass with age. I don’t recall if there was a science-backed bibliography in these books or not. But even the marathon training books I’ve perused at the library recommend some small percentage of interval reps (or fartlek[sp?]), for working on running form (finishing kick?) if nothing else. IMHO. YMMV. — Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/ #include

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ trying to look for counter-points to this form of training and what better place to look then a runner’s ng. I’m talking about training where you sprint your ass off for 20 seconds, walk or jog of 15 seconds and sprint again, doing this for about 5 minutes. Of course including few minutes of warm up and cool down. I’ve read that in experiments where they compare both styles of exercise that those who exercise in HIIT gain not only of 10% anaerobic endurance but also 14% of aerobic endurance, meanwhile the medium intensity high duration people only gained 10% in aerobic endurance and naught in anaerobic. I have been running for a few months, and do notice an overall increase in endurance when I play other sports, but stairs still suck the life out of me as much as they did even before I use to run. I usually 2-4 times a week for about 80 minutes. This is what I have read on HIIT so far… http://www.buildleanmuscle.com/interval-training.html http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/justin6.htm http://www.cs.unm.edu/~wneumann/files/guerilla_cardio.pdf Thanks

What is your goal? You can’t have a plan and we can’t give our comments on your plan if you don’t tell us what results you want. Gaining areobic endurance is great for sprints and short events and useless for marathons and such. You refer to a few body building sites so do you need aerobic endurance for that? I can’t say anything about that because I’ve never been involved in bodybuilding. Sprinters are pretty well sculpted but it has more to do with the weights they lift than the running they do. I’ve run for many years and have skinny legs, yet well defined. Doing aerobic training is pretty useless in terms of getting and keeping a base level of fittness. If you’re trying to do that stop now before you end up injuring yourself. Unless you are a highly trained athlete any aerobic training that doesn’t cause injury is beneficial to you athletic endevours. my $0.02 Andy

Response:

Competitive distance runners do not view interval training as being "opposed" to "long duration jogging". We do both intervals and steady paced aerobic runs. The adaptions that are caused by endurance training and intervals are not the same (even if the tests used in some studies can’t tell the difference). For example, try running a marathon on HIIT alone. The fact that the adaptions one gets are different (and useful for distance runners) is the reason why we do both. As for the idea of doing a program consisting *entirely* of intervals, there are many who belive such a program is likely to produce injury (even the HIIT websites who place some weasel-words in as if this is of peripheral importance compared to the results they yell about). The HIIT weight loss study (Tremblay et al) used the stationary bike. It would be interesting to see what the injury rates would be if they used running on the same subject pool (but they’d have a hard time even getting permission to do such a study) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

As for the idea of doing a program consisting *entirely* of intervals, there are many who belive such a program is likely to produce injury (even the HIIT websites who place some weasel-words in as if this is of peripheral importance compared to the results they yell about). The HIIT weight loss study (Tremblay et al) used the stationary bike. It would be interesting to see what the injury rates would be if they used running on the same subject pool (but they’d have a hard time even getting permission to do such a study) Cheers,

Uphill running has some similarities to cycling, as the knees come up higher. By doing bursts on an uphill, of which there are a few around here, you can pump as much as your lungs allow without skeletal injury. You then take your time getting back down, whether that was the plan or not. You find yourself running more from the forefoot, it adds spring to your step and it builds leg muscle of the sort that helps you run. Even mesomorphs can push their limits.

Response:

You’re trading skeletal injury risk for soft-tissue injury risk (achilles tendonitis, shinsplints). Choose your poison. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I’ trying to look for counter-points to this form of training and what better place to look then a runner’s ng. I’m talking about training where you sprint your ass off for 20 seconds, walk or jog of 15 seconds and sprint again, doing this for about 5 minutes. Of course including few minutes of warm up and cool down. I’ve read that in experiments where they compare both styles of exercise that those who exercise in HIIT gain not only of 10% anaerobic endurance but also 14% of aerobic endurance, meanwhile the medium intensity high duration people only gained 10% in aerobic endurance and naught in anaerobic. I have been running for a few months, and do notice an overall increase in endurance when I play other sports, but stairs still suck the life out of me as much as they did even before I use to run. I usually 2-4 times a week for about 80 minutes. This is what I have read on HIIT so far… http://www.buildleanmuscle.com/interval-training.html http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/justin6.htm http://www.cs.unm.edu/~wneumann/files/guerilla_cardio.pdf Thanks

Response:

Training Advice please.

admin — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open this by accident.

Not a problem. It just seems there’s been so many posts (not this one) implying that you need measured distances for speed work or hard efforts, I was trying to generate a little discussion on alternative methods, and you are one of the few here that I’ve seen post more from the VO2max, LT perspective as opposed to distances and paces. Thanks for the reply and the suggestions. For VO2max I like efforts that are 2:30 to 5 minutes in duration with equal recovery (times) at a jog. I like to aim for 12 to 18 minutes of this in a session. So a workout might be 5×3min (3min recovery). The speed of the workout is the speed that I can average for a 6min all out run (this is based on some of the work of Veronique Billat). An all out run lasting 6min will give you an approximation of the minimal velocity needed to elicit VO2max.

Can the feel for vVO2max be estimated by effort – what it feels like to run all out for 6 min? Or does it have a pct max hr or heart rate reserve that it usually corresponds to? I’ve got some notes suggesting it’s around 91% Karvonen reserve or 94% max hr. (I feel reasonably comfortable with my estimates of max hr and VT/LT based on experience – or at least something close enough that works for beginners.) While I do have some relatively easy sections of trails that might be suitable for a 6-min test, most of my runs are going to vary from dirt in summer to various levels of snow in winter (running on snowshoes again today after a couple weeks of just normal running in snow). My future races (or my best imitation of racing) will probably include both summer trail running, snowshoe running, and probably mt biking (duathlon) – and they usually involve hills, so the more I can accomodate that type training, the better off I am, I think. Treadmills to me are so different from my normal running, that if I used that for calibration, I’d have a hard time transferring that feel to actual running. Trying to find some way of meaningful calibration has always been an issue for me trying to do various tests. BTW, this 5×3 min (3 min recovery) is the same that Owen Anderson suggests for vVO2max workout (and I’m sure he got it some place else). For lactate threshold work, I aim for 20 to 60 min at a pace that one could maintain for one hour, all out. For reference however I use 10K time. So my favorite workout is 2×20min (5 min recovery) at 10K pace or a few seconds slower per mile. You can also do 4×10min, 3×15min or continuous 40-60 min effort. Another VO2max workout that I have tried to do but find really hard to do running (easier cycling) is 30sec on/30sec off. When you are "on" it is all out; when you are "off" you are doing nothing (except maybe walking. Oddly enough to many people that becomes an aerobic workout after the first couple of all out sprints. I do not recommend this workout for any person I have ever worked with. I know a guy who can do this workout for 20min.

wow! When I first looked at that, I thought it looked like OA’s suggestion for a vVO2max to do if you can’t handle the 5×3min – then I realized his is at vVO2max, and this is all out and not having as much recovery time as lactate stacker (1:2 work:recovery; all out during work). Then doing that for 20 min. Thanks again for your comments. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

–snip–

i only drink one cup a day at the most anyway. and i intend to run the 10K on an overnite empty stomach. i’m not up to risking some gastro problem (like diarrhea) just yet. it starts early enough to just give me time to sleep in to 7 o’clock, get up, dressed, drive there and get in the start group. really, not much time to eat anyway. and this means i can pig out after the race without worrying about consuming too many calories for the day. another one of my concerns is belly fat. i have a little (6 feet, 165 pounds) and don’t want more. less is better. …thehick

Response:

Dot, I apologize I skipped the thread and actually open this by accident. For VO2max I like efforts that are 2:30 to 5 minutes in duration with equal recovery (times) at a jog. I like to aim for 12 to 18 minutes of this in a session. So a workout might be 5×3min (3min recovery). The speed of the workout is the speed that I can average for a 6min all out run (this is based on some of the work of Veronique Billat). An all out run lasting 6min will give you an approximation of the minimal velocity needed to elicit VO2max. For lactate threshold work, I aim for 20 to 60 min at a pace that one could maintain for one hour, all out. For reference however I use 10K time. So my favorite workout is 2×20min (5 min recovery) at 10K pace or a few seconds slower per mile. You can also do 4×10min, 3×15min or continuous 40-60 min effort. Another VO2max workout that I have tried to do but find really hard to do running (easier cycling) is 30sec on/30sec off. When you are "on" it is all out; when you are "off" you are doing nothing (except maybe walking. Oddly enough to many people that becomes an aerobic workout after the first couple of all out sprints. I do not recommend this workout for any person I have ever worked with. I know a guy who can do this workout for 20min.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

What it really boils down to is that on the treadmill, you’re running in a frame of reference that is moving relative to observers, but that makes very little difference. It confuses a lot of people, because they labor under the intuitive delusion that the Earth’s surface is some authoritative bench mark for what is and isn’t "really moving" when in fact it practice it’s just a convenient frame of reference most of the time.

Right. Another simple example that will help is those conveyer belts that you can sometimes see and use at airports. Since they move in your direction, if you get on one and stay stationary, you still move forward. If you were to start walking normally, you would out-pace someone who is walking on the floor next to you at the same pace you’re walking. On the other hand, if you were to start walking in the *opposite* direction of the conveyer belt, now you would have to walk faster than someone walking on the floor along-side you and headed in the same direction just to keep up with them; or you must still walk to remain at the same spot where your companion stands, were he to stop walking. The second case is akin to what takes place on the treadmill. Another example: would you say you are doing less work when walking *up* a *down*-escalator than if you were walking up regular stairs? If you answer yes, congratulations, you have graduated from Macel-logic school. All of which adds up to: if the device in question is opposing your direction of motion, you have to do work to over-come it, either to stay stationary or to move forward. In the stationary case, the amount of work you must put out equals that of the motor and is for all intents and purposes equal to the amount of work along a non-moving surface while moving forward at the same rate of the opposing motor. Concretely: 1) If the motor is going at the equivalent of 6.0 miles/hr, you must run at a rate of 6.0 miles/hr to stay put; otherwise you fly out the back side. 2) If you want to run on the road at 6.0 miles/hour, you must run at 6.0 miles/hr. Yeah, really. In either case, you must run at 6.0 miles/hr, and the amount of work you must do to accomplish this is the same. —

Training Week Ending January 18, 2004

admin — Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Not a good week. Mon-7.4 mi (7:28/mile) Tues-6.1 mi (7:43/mile) Wed- 4.0 mi (8:19/mile) (6 in of snow falling) Thu-off Fri- 5.4 mi (7:40/mile) Sat-off 1-3 more inches Sun-off nada dist=22.9 mi goals martian half-marathon, late March, Dex-AA half-marathon, late May I hate snow, I hate it with a passion. and I hate all of those a-holes who can’t be bothered to shovel their sidewalks. -jeremy — — Jeremy Hallum, System Manager , Astronomy, University of Michigan "Audentis Fortuna Iuvat"

Response:

Not a good week. I hate snow, I hate it with a passion. and I hate all of those a-holes who can’t be bothered to shovel their sidewalks. -jeremy —

Jeremy, may I recommend these? They’ve enabled my wife and I to run in anything so far this winter, even glare ice. http://www.surefoot.net/products/index.php?id=22 Robert

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – M – 4 mi @ 9:00 Indoor track T – 5 mi @ 9:00 Gallup park (short) W – 4 mi @ 9:00 Around town T – On the shelf — shin splints F – Rest — injury S – Rest — injury S – Rest — injury Total: 13 mi. My left shin was clearing up nicely with my slower-pace program, but at the expense of my right shin, which was becoming more painful, and the pain was beginning to localize. I’m bagging it this week before the pain progresses from the fascia to the bone. So … going to return to running next week, but I’m going to knock the mileage down significantly, and stay at the slower pace. This week, I’ll do some lower wt. work and ride the bike on the rollers a bit to keep fit. Oh yeah, and ice and do my shin exercises and stretches. Goals: Sub-1:30 Dexter-Ann Arbor Half Marathon on June 6. I tell ya man, after spending 6.5 miles slipping around Ann Arbor today, I still think you should take a little more time away from running than that. The paths and streets just SUCK. If I were you, I’d try to cut back on that as much as possible. -jeremy — Jeremy Hallum, System Manager , Astronomy, University of Michigan "Audentis Fortuna Iuvat"

Hey, I’m an indoor track guy now, remember? I’ll go out and trot around the gerbil cage next Monday, and if all systems aren’t go, I’ve got no problem bagging it for another week. I got no problem targeting CRIM instead of the half either (except for the heat, that is …). Careful out there. Good opportunity to bang or pull something. Scott

Response:

m: dnr t: 0.618hrs w: 0.824 minus 2F

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Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

PM: 0.5 mile warmup + 1.5 hr soccer total: 20 miles + 1.5 hr soccer goals: building base. 2nd week at 20mpw. jobs

Response:

M – 4 mi @ 9:00 Indoor track T – 5 mi @ 9:00 Gallup park (short) W – 4 mi @ 9:00 Around town T – On the shelf — shin splints F – Rest — injury S – Rest — injury S – Rest — injury Total: 13 mi. My left shin was clearing up nicely with my slower-pace program, but at the expense of my right shin, which was becoming more painful, and the pain was beginning to localize. I’m bagging it this week before the pain progresses from the fascia to the bone. So … going to return to running next week, but I’m going to knock the mileage down significantly, and stay at the slower pace. This week, I’ll do some lower wt. work and ride the bike on the rollers a bit to keep fit. Oh yeah, and ice and do my shin exercises and stretches. Goals: Sub-1:30 Dexter-Ann Arbor Half Marathon on June 6. Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals. cheers,

Response:

I tell ya man, after spending 6.5 miles slipping around Ann Arbor today, I still think you should take a little more time away from running than that. The paths and streets just SUCK. If I were you, I’d try to cut back on that as much as possible. -jeremy — Jeremy Hallum, System Manager , Astronomy, University of Michigan "Audentis Fortuna Iuvat"

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

I had commitments this weekend the negated much running, which is a shame because I have pretty serious races coming up that I’d like to do well in. Goals: ATB 30k (late March) Mississauga Marathon (mid-May) F – off S – off TOTAL: 61km (37.9 miles) cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

<< Mon – DNR Tue – 5 miles, 49:04 Wed – 1 mile, no time Thu – 5 miles, 46:46 Fri – DNR Sat – 9.3 miles, 1:42:00 Sun – 4.8 miles, 47:04 Mike

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I’m trying to build a base before marathon training starts on the 26th. Monday: 5.3 miles (47:47) Tuesday: 3.25 miles (29:18) Wednesday: 45 minutes elliptical trainer, upper body weights Thursday: 5.3 miles (49:28), lower body weights Friday: 4 miles (36:38), upper body weights Satuday: 8.2 miles (81:26). Pavement was icy and slick in spots. Sunday: DNR Total – 26.05 miles marisa

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

Goals: pure sprinting (60/100/200) through indoor season peak in March first major race 2/21 Holiday Inn Classic (Reno NV) Mon weights Wed 3 X 175m hill. 20% slope, (34 avg), 3 min rest later 4K around lake (13:38) Thu off Fri weights isolation curls 4 X 10 @ 90 triceps pushdown 4 X 12 @ 90 Sat off Sun 5 X 40m accelerations from blocks (4.9 best) Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!" –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals. cheers,

M 6.3/4.5 T 6.9 W 5.9/4.1 T 4.5 F xt 50m S 12 S xt 60m Total: 44 xt=cross training Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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d02.news.aol.com: F 4.2 (30 laps around the Lake of Woe)

Stop! I’m getting dizzy. -Phil

Response:

goals: get healthy, stay healthy for marathon coming up Feb 22. for the moment I’ve decided not to race between now and then. M: 6.2mi (9:16), ITB moderately sore T: 5mi incl 9×400. this was supposed to be 11×400 but ITB pain stopped me after 9. W: 9.3mi (8:49), ITB tolerable. massage later. R: 9.1mi (8:49), ITB much better F: 6.2mi (9:01), ITB not as good Sa: 2mi (8:31) Su: 16.6mi incl half-marathon (1:38:35), ITB gave out at mile 12 of race. total: 54.4 miles So I have some ITB trouble lately. The revised marathon-training plan is: no racing, no real speedwork (tempo or mile repeats if I feel like it) – just as much easy running as I can tolerate while this heals. Wish me luck. Good week all Karen

Response:

Tuesday- DNR Wednesday- 14 miles w/speedwork- 8:50 overall pace Thursday- 8 miles- 9:05 pace Saturday- DNR Total: 50 miles March or April (not sure which yet), 100-mile (century) bike ride in the fall.

: Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training : week and goals. : : : : cheers, : — : David (in Hamilton, ON) : www.allfalldown.org : :

Response:

d02.news.aol.com: F 4.2 (30 laps around the Lake of Woe) Stop! I’m getting dizzy.

Yeah, that’s kinda how I felt, too. The sad thing is, I really LIKE that lake, as a landscaping feature. In fact, the nice landscaping was one of the selling points for me on this complex, and I love to sit out on my balcony in the summer and see nothing but leaves and water and my little pots of petunias… …still, it’s miserable to run around at 11 pm on a Friday night.

Response:

Base training for spring/summer triathlon season. Build Week M: dnr T: 9.0 – easy brick (run following a bike workout) W: 4.2 – fast brick T: 4.2 – easy brick F: 10.0 – 3 easy, 4 tempo, 3 easy S: dnr S: 20.3 – easy (achy joints the few miles) Total run: 47.7 miles (Swim 16k, Bike 210 miles)

Response:

Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org

Response:

S – 14.4 mi – tempo M – 4.5 mi – easy T – 6.2 mi w/ 5 mi tempo W – 6.1 mi – easy T – 5.7 mi easy F – 5 mi easy S – off Goal – Austin Marathon – February 14, 2004 CAJUNMAN

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@read2.cgocable.net: Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training week and goals.

Sun 9 Mon dnr Tue 5 Wed 7 Thu 6 Fri dnr Sat 5 Ttl 32 Currently in a base building phase. Steady increase in MPW and LSD. Backing off every 4th week. Hearing all the reports of sub-zero weather, I feel I have no excuses. I live in Atlanta. The temps have been in the 40 to 55 range. I’ll be paying for this wonderful weather in June, July, and August. My weight steadily coming off. 245 last June, now 179. Co-worker comment of the week: "Phil, did you have a gastric bypass operation?" I replied, "No. I had the full-body bypass." I’m still shooting for 175 by mid February. -Phil

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Mon – Sun: no running. 1st "0" week for more than a year. R&R after marathon. Doing some walking, enjoying the break. Anthony. Jerusalem, Israel.

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Monday 1 hour Tuesday Off Wed. 1:20 Thursday 1 hour Friday 2:00 Saturday 1:30 Sunday 2:00 total = 8 hours NORDIC SKIING = 70 miles… no running. Training for ski marathon in Feb, running marathon in May. JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mon – Sun: no running. 1st "0" week for more than a year. R&R after marathon. Doing some walking, enjoying the break. Anthony. Jerusalem, Israel.

Response:

Goal: Wokingham 1/2M, sub 1:14 if conditions are good. Other goals for 2004: 33:29 10k, 15:59 5k Monday: pm) 3.1 miles – easy Tuesday: pm) 7.25 miles in total, 3 x ~1.5m w/3min rec – hard Wednesday: pm) 8.1 miles – easy Thursday: pm) 8 mile club run, first 2 miles slow, got bored with pace and did the Friday: am) 6 miles – easy-easy/medium pm) 7.5 miles – easy Saturday: pm) 8.5 miles in total, 7 x 1.45km w/2min rec – hard Sunday: am) 11.8 miles, hillyish – easy/medium Total run: 60.25 miles — Brian Wakem

Response:

Goals: Complete Connemarathon 28th March with some degree of comfort. Improve pace. Mon: 8 miles Tue: 7 miles incl. 5×6 hills, played raquetball Wed: dnr, played badminton Thurs: 8 miles Fri: 8 miles Sat: dnr, went on the beer Sun: sore head, 3 mile tempo Total: 34 miles. Less than I would have liked, but sometimes a little rest is no bad thing. — Colm

: Greetings, rec.runners! Please tell us about your training : week and goals.

Response:

M 5.5 trail run T 2.8 (20 laps around the Lake of Woe) W dnr Th 3.4 (24 laps around the Lake of Woe) F 4.2 (30 laps around the Lake of Woe) S dnr S 5 trail Total = ~21 Goals: increase to consistent 28-30 mpw, fall trail half-marathon, loose 30 lbs in 2004. This week was my first stab at balancing single-again parenting and running. The Lake of Woe is a small pond in our apt. complex with a boardwalk around it, approximately 240 yards around it. It is dreadfully boring, but it is completely visible at all points from my 3rd floor apt., so I feel ok running there at night when the kids are asleep, because if emergency arose they can always just holler down from the balcony. Interesting- and annoyingly, running around that boardwalk made the muscles in front of my shins really ache. I don’t know if it was the surface (surely more springy than concrete/asphalt, but couldn’t be any softer than trails) or a change in pace/form. It got better after a few goes, but I don’t know how long I can put up with the mental tedium. Fortunately, it’ll be warm enough in a couple of months to go back to afterschool kids-bike/mom-runs in the 3-4 mile range. After all those miserable cold nights on the Lake of Woe, today’s trail run felt fabulous! It was about 35 and raining on top of light snow from last night, which wouldn’t normally seem like fun running weather. But it was so much warmer than last week, and it was nice to be running in daylight in the woods and fields.

Response:

Proper Training? But now a slow runner

admin — Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

snip…. If you’re under 30 and a 7" pace is lung punishing, you are never going to run a 5" mile. I don’t care if you train 1000 miles a week. Only way you’re moving at a 5" pace is if I tow you with the Dodge.

Of course I can. I’m not you.

Response:

What mindless retort. Has this newsgroup gone to hell or what?! "I’m not you." Really? << If you’re under 30 and a 7" pace is lung punishing, you are never going to run a 5" mile. I don’t care if you train 1000 miles a week. Only way you’re moving at a 5" pace is if I tow you with the Dodge.

Of course I can. I’m not you. Jennifer

Response:

The Number One asset in correct distance running training is PATIENCE. Without the patience to train correctly, you will not improve like you want. Yes, when you slow down and build a base you could find your race times slowing down. But the return for doing this is that when you switch back to hard training, it won’t take long before you are demolishing your PRs. It doesn’t take years, maybe months to a year but it happens. What are you doing for "easy" running? If your 5K pace is 7min/mile, then easy running is probably around 8:30-9 min/mile. Maybe 8, but that’s getting a little quick. Your longest run of the week will probably be a little slower than that. You don’t want to stop all fast running while you’re building your base. It is good to keep a couple good efforts in there to remind your body what it is like. The easiest is to do a few 100m accelerations to near full pace. This may not sound like much, but do them after every other easy workout and it will keep your legs fresh. Also do a tempo run weekly, maybe 3-5 miles if you are a 5K-10K runner. THis will be a little slower than your race pace, you should feel like you could do another mile or two at that pace when you are done but no more. Or you could do fartleks, just randomly picking it up to race pace for 1-2 minutes in the middle of your run with a few minutes easy running in between. After a few months of this, start doing two hard workouts a week as you approach goal race season. Pounding every run at PR pace will provide short-term results at best. We’re all individuals, but I’ve never met a runner who wouldn’t benefit more from this type of training than pounding every run. Andy Hass

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re that small, nobody calls you Mister. Will you beat my meat, Surf? Mr. Ree Meat Why not just beat yourself senseless with a club? In the beginning, a ran at PR pace 3 times a week, sometimes 4. Even my long run in the weekend I ran at PR pace. I broke so many PRs and on my way to running a 7 mins/mile pace in just a few months, not even a year and I started from a 13 mins/mile pace. After getting a runner’s knee (In the beginning, I ran everyday at a heavy weight) and plantar fascitis (got it when I increased my run by a mile and at the same time changed course to include huge hills), I decided to do proper training as many of you here have recommended. I went to runnersworld.com and used their calculator to tell me what my easy run, Max V02, and long run pace should be. The only lung punishing workout of course is the 4-7 x 800. So, although my mileage is about the same, maybe just a little more since I increased it by 10%. The result: runner’s knee = Seemed to get worse during the slow runs, I actually feel pain. Maybe I had pain when I was running at PR pace, just couldn’t feel it since I was gasping for air everytime and that’s the only thing I can think about. plantar fascitis = Got a little better. Time = All downhill. Since I ran my long runs at slow pace, that’s exactly what I ran the half-marathon. Since I’m no longer running at PR pace, my body adjusted and can no longer tolerate lung punishing runs that last from 45 minutes to over an hour. I knew of course I was slowing down. A few weeks before the Manhattan Half-Marathon, I tried to run a 7 minutes+/mile 5M run and just couldn’t do it. The most I could do was 1 mile. I couldn’t stand that uncomfortable feeling of gasping for air for 40 minutes. Anyway, I decided to take a month’s off from running, but when I get back, I have no choice but to do a lung punishing run instead of these lousy easy runs. I probably will not do a PR run most of the time, but I will definitely run a fast one, maybe just 20-30 seconds slower from my race pace instead of 1-2 minutes. Or I could do 2 lung punishing runs, but still run the long run at a slow pace. The proper training probably works as many runners have claimed, but the progress is slow. I don’t want to wait till I’m 30 before I start hitting 5 min/mile pace.

If you’re under 30 and a 7" pace is lung punishing, you are never going to run a 5" mile. I don’t care if you train 1000 miles a week. Only way you’re moving at a 5" pace is if I tow you with the Dodge.

Response:

When you’re that small, nobody calls you Mister. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will you beat my meat, Surf? Mr. Ree Meat Why not just beat yourself senseless with a club? In the beginning, a ran at PR pace 3 times a week, sometimes 4. Even my long run in the weekend I ran at PR pace. I broke so many PRs and on my way to running a 7 mins/mile pace in just a few months, not even a year and I started from a 13 mins/mile pace. After getting a runner’s knee (In the beginning, I ran everyday at a heavy weight) and plantar fascitis (got it when I increased my run by a mile and at the same time changed course to include huge hills), I decided to do proper training as many of you here have recommended. I went to runnersworld.com and used their calculator to tell me what my easy run, Max V02, and long run pace should be. The only lung punishing workout of course is the 4-7 x 800. So, although my mileage is about the same, maybe just a little more since I increased it by 10%. The result: runner’s knee = Seemed to get worse during the slow runs, I actually feel pain. Maybe I had pain when I was running at PR pace, just couldn’t feel it since I was gasping for air everytime and that’s the only thing I can think about. plantar fascitis = Got a little better. Time = All downhill. Since I ran my long runs at slow pace, that’s exactly what I ran the half-marathon. Since I’m no longer running at PR pace, my body adjusted and can no longer tolerate lung punishing runs that last from 45 minutes to over an hour. I knew of course I was slowing down. A few weeks before the Manhattan Half-Marathon, I tried to run a 7 minutes+/mile 5M run and just couldn’t do it. The most I could do was 1 mile. I couldn’t stand that uncomfortable feeling of gasping for air for 40 minutes. Anyway, I decided to take a month’s off from running, but when I get back, I have no choice but to do a lung punishing run instead of these lousy easy runs. I probably will not do a PR run most of the time, but I will definitely run a fast one, maybe just 20-30 seconds slower from my race pace instead of 1-2 minutes. Or I could do 2 lung punishing runs, but still run the long run at a slow pace. The proper training probably works as many runners have claimed, but the progress is slow. I don’t want to wait till I’m 30 before I start hitting 5 min/mile pace.

Response:

Will you beat my meat, Surf? Mr. Ree Meat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Why not just beat yourself senseless with a club? In the beginning, a ran at PR pace 3 times a week, sometimes 4. Even my long run in the weekend I ran at PR pace. I broke so many PRs and on my way to running a 7 mins/mile pace in just a few months, not even a year and I started from a 13 mins/mile pace. After getting a runner’s knee (In the beginning, I ran everyday at a heavy weight) and plantar fascitis (got it when I increased my run by a mile and at the same time changed course to include huge hills), I decided to do proper training as many of you here have recommended. I went to runnersworld.com and used their calculator to tell me what my easy run, Max V02, and long run pace should be. The only lung punishing workout of course is the 4-7 x 800. So, although my mileage is about the same, maybe just a little more since I increased it by 10%. The result: runner’s knee = Seemed to get worse during the slow runs, I actually feel pain. Maybe I had pain when I was running at PR pace, just couldn’t feel it since I was gasping for air everytime and that’s the only thing I can think about. plantar fascitis = Got a little better. Time = All downhill. Since I ran my long runs at slow pace, that’s exactly what I ran the half-marathon. Since I’m no longer running at PR pace, my body adjusted and can no longer tolerate lung punishing runs that last from 45 minutes to over an hour. I knew of course I was slowing down. A few weeks before the Manhattan Half-Marathon, I tried to run a 7 minutes+/mile 5M run and just couldn’t do it. The most I could do was 1 mile. I couldn’t stand that uncomfortable feeling of gasping for air for 40 minutes. Anyway, I decided to take a month’s off from running, but when I get back, I have no choice but to do a lung punishing run instead of these lousy easy runs. I probably will not do a PR run most of the time, but I will definitely run a fast one, maybe just 20-30 seconds slower from my race pace instead of 1-2 minutes. Or I could do 2 lung punishing runs, but still run the long run at a slow pace. The proper training probably works as many runners have claimed, but the progress is slow. I don’t want to wait till I’m 30 before I start hitting 5 min/mile pace.

Response:

Patience, my friend. Don’t go to it, let it come to you. when you ready, you will be ready! Hoo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In the beginning, a ran at PR pace 3 times a week, sometimes 4. Even my long run in the weekend I ran at PR pace. I broke so many PRs and on my way to running a 7 mins/mile pace in just a few months, not even a year and I started from a 13 mins/mile pace. After getting a runner’s knee (In the beginning, I ran everyday at a heavy weight) and plantar fascitis (got it when I increased my run by a mile and at the same time changed course to include huge hills), I decided to do proper training as many of you here have recommended. I went to runnersworld.com and used their calculator to tell me what my easy run, Max V02, and long run pace should be. The only lung punishing workout of course is the 4-7 x 800. So, although my mileage is about the same, maybe just a little more since I increased it by 10%. The result: runner’s knee = Seemed to get worse during the slow runs, I actually feel pain. Maybe I had pain when I was running at PR pace, just couldn’t feel it since I was gasping for air everytime and that’s the only thing I can think about. plantar fascitis = Got a little better. Time = All downhill. Since I ran my long runs at slow pace, that’s exactly what I ran the half-marathon. Since I’m no longer running at PR pace, my body adjusted and can no longer tolerate lung punishing runs that last from 45 minutes to over an hour. I knew of course I was slowing down. A few weeks before the Manhattan Half-Marathon, I tried to run a 7 minutes+/mile 5M run and just couldn’t do it. The most I could do was 1 mile. I couldn’t stand that uncomfortable feeling of gasping for air for 40 minutes. Anyway, I decided to take a month’s off from running, but when I get back, I have no choice but to do a lung punishing run instead of these lousy easy runs. I probably will not do a PR run most of the time, but I will definitely run a fast one, maybe just 20-30 seconds slower from my race pace instead of 1-2 minutes. Or I could do 2 lung punishing runs, but still run the long run at a slow pace. The proper training probably works as many runners have claimed, but the progress is slow. I don’t want to wait till I’m 30 before I start hitting 5 min/mile pace.

Response:

Why not just beat yourself senseless with a club?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the beginning, a ran at PR pace 3 times a week, sometimes 4. Even my long run in the weekend I ran at PR pace. I broke so many PRs and on my way to running a 7 mins/mile pace in just a few months, not even a year and I started from a 13 mins/mile pace. After getting a runner’s knee (In the beginning, I ran everyday at a heavy weight) and plantar fascitis (got it when I increased my run by a mile and at the same time changed course to include huge hills), I decided to do proper training as many of you here have recommended. I went to runnersworld.com and used their calculator to tell me what my easy run, Max V02, and long run pace should be. The only lung punishing workout of course is the 4-7 x 800. So, although my mileage is about the same, maybe just a little more since I increased it by 10%. The result: runner’s knee = Seemed to get worse during the slow runs, I actually feel pain. Maybe I had pain when I was running at PR pace, just couldn’t feel it since I was gasping for air everytime and that’s the only thing I can think about. plantar fascitis = Got a little better. Time = All downhill. Since I ran my long runs at slow pace, that’s exactly what I ran the half-marathon. Since I’m no longer running at PR pace, my body adjusted and can no longer tolerate lung punishing runs that last from 45 minutes to over an hour. I knew of course I was slowing down. A few weeks before the Manhattan Half-Marathon, I tried to run a 7 minutes+/mile 5M run and just couldn’t do it. The most I could do was 1 mile. I couldn’t stand that uncomfortable feeling of gasping for air for 40 minutes. Anyway, I decided to take a month’s off from running, but when I get back, I have no choice but to do a lung punishing run instead of these lousy easy runs. I probably will not do a PR run most of the time, but I will definitely run a fast one, maybe just 20-30 seconds slower from my race pace instead of 1-2 minutes. Or I could do 2 lung punishing runs, but still run the long run at a slow pace. The proper training probably works as many runners have claimed, but the progress is slow. I don’t want to wait till I’m 30 before I start hitting 5 min/mile pace.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the beginning, a ran at PR pace 3 times a week, sometimes 4. Even my long run in the weekend I ran at PR pace. I broke so many PRs and on my way to running a 7 mins/mile pace in just a few months, not even a year and I started from a 13 mins/mile pace. After getting a runner’s knee (In the beginning, I ran everyday at a heavy weight) and plantar fascitis (got it when I increased my run by a mile and at the same time changed course to include huge hills), I decided to do proper training as many of you here have recommended. from my race pace instead of 1-2 minutes. Or I could do 2 lung punishing runs, but still run the long run at a slow pace. The proper training probably works as many runners have claimed, but the progress is slow. I don’t want to wait till I’m 30 before I start hitting 5 min/mile pace.

The "proper training" doesn’t mean taking it easy all of the time. It means building up a good base (which, for a newbie, is more than "just a few months"), and then putting the punishing intervals on top of that base. periodize, and work hard _when you’re supposed to_. Push, and then _recover_. The alternatives are injury or stagnation. r.r. often gets its share of "take it easier!" because it’s one of the hardest things for driven people to do. But there’s another voice in there saying "run hill repeats" and "intervals until you almost drop" – but don’t do them every workout. If you’re finding the overall schedule too easy, up the mileage carefully. It won’t take you until you’re thirty (unless, perhaps, you’re 29.5). It might take you a year, but you probably want that year to let your tendons strengthen. Your cardiovascular system can improve in a matter of days; your muscles in weeks, but your bones and tendons have this awful habit of taking their time. If you’re not feeling the cardio thing, go swimming and demolish yourself in the pool, it’s easier to recover from. If you’re unhappy with the muscular side of it, hit the weight room. I have a good friend who runs his daily runs a lot harder than I run mine. In fact, I’ve mellowed out the pace lately and replaced it with a bit of extra distance – took my standard run up to about an hour at 8:00 – 8:45 pace depending on how I feel. All totally conversational; I throw in some 5k race pace intervals every few weeks to keep myself entertained, but that’s about it. The last time we raced together, he asked, "where the hell did _that_ come from??". Here’s a series of articles you might enjoy. It’s written from the perspective of a serious distance coach: http://www.ffh.us/cn/hadd.htm WELL worth reading. And re-reading. -Dave — work: dga – at – lcs.mit.edu me: angio – at – pobox.com MIT Laboratory for Computer Science http://www.angio.net/ (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed…) bulk emailers: I do not accept unsolicited email. Do not mail me.

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In the beginning, a ran at PR pace 3 times a week, sometimes 4. Even my long run in the weekend I ran at PR pace. I broke so many PRs and on my way to running a 7 mins/mile pace in just a few months, not even a year and I started from a 13 mins/mile pace. After getting a runner’s knee (In the beginning, I ran everyday at a heavy weight) and plantar fascitis (got it when I increased my run by a mile and at the same time changed course to include huge hills), I decided to do proper training as many of you here have recommended. I went to runnersworld.com and used their calculator to tell me what my easy run, Max V02, and long run pace should be. The only lung punishing workout of course is the 4-7 x 800. So, although my mileage is about the same, maybe just a little more since I increased it by 10%. The result: runner’s knee = Seemed to get worse during the slow runs, I actually feel pain. Maybe I had pain when I was running at PR pace, just couldn’t feel it since I was gasping for air everytime and that’s the only thing I can think about. plantar fascitis = Got a little better. Time = All downhill. Since I ran my long runs at slow pace, that’s exactly what I ran the half-marathon. Since I’m no longer running at PR pace, my body adjusted and can no longer tolerate lung punishing runs that last from 45 minutes to over an hour. I knew of course I was slowing down. A few weeks before the Manhattan Half-Marathon, I tried to run a 7 minutes+/mile 5M run and just couldn’t do it. The most I could do was 1 mile. I couldn’t stand that uncomfortable feeling of gasping for air for 40 minutes. Anyway, I decided to take a month’s off from running, but when I get back, I have no choice but to do a lung punishing run instead of these lousy easy runs. I probably will not do a PR run most of the time, but I will definitely run a fast one, maybe just 20-30 seconds slower from my race pace instead of 1-2 minutes. Or I could do 2 lung punishing runs, but still run the long run at a slow pace. The proper training probably works as many runners have claimed, but the progress is slow. I don’t want to wait till I’m 30 before I start hitting 5 min/mile pace.

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Backadapack Report: Calgary Marathon

admin — Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:00:00 +0000

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Executive summary: It was glorious. W e crashed. We burned. We immediately started planning our next one. Event Name: Calgary Marathon – AKA 39th Annual Stampede Road Race Time: 7:00 a.m. Distance: 42.2K Location: Calgary, AB, Canada Host: Calgary Road Runners Club Benefit: Special Olympics Calgary and Renfrew Educational Services Course Layout: Out and back Course Terrain: Officially flat; actually a few small hills at the start, gradual climb to mile 14 then slope back down. Weather Conditions: Very nice. 47F/8C; overcast, light breeze, very (!) low humidity Sociological (Fashion, fighting, foolery, and food): Fashion: WIDE variety from singlets to jackets. Not much in the way of coordinated attire. Fighting: None that I saw (except for the banana incident below) Foolery: Not much. A lot of chatting for the first 10 miles. Food: Very little by the time we finished. Susan rassled a banana away from a small child. (I’m just kidding.) Personal Time: 5:20:30 Personal Pace: 12:14 Personal Place Overall (males): 477 out of 491 Personal Place Age Group (males): 78 out of 78 # of participants completing the course: 750 (940 had registered) Winning Time: 2:35:56 Last Finisher: 8:01:35 Event URL: http://www.stampederoadrace.com Results URL: http://www.raceheadquarters.com/results/2003/run/stampm.htm Pictures: http://curly.cis.unf.edu/pics/sports/calgary03/calg03.html Comments: We had debated about which of the two approaches we wanted to use for our first marathon – stay at home for comfort and familiarity or travel to make it more special. Initially, we had decided to stay at home. Somewhere along the way I got a wild hair and suggested that we get out! Susan has a sister in Calgary. It was Stampede time (their rodeo and civic celebration). Plans to run the Calgary Marathon started taking place before I had a chance to reconsider my rash suggestion. The Calgary Stampede is a very nice celebration with the rodeo, a real, old fashioned parade, and pancake breakfasts everywhere you looked. The marathon is part of the Stampede Road Race (last year it was called the Stampede Roadeo Race). The new name is unfortunate in that everyone we asked (all locals) thought that the race was an automobile race. We were told that the Calgary Marathon is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) marathon in Canada. The expo was fun but much smaller than we expected. The weather was amazing – low humidity and low temperatures in the upper 40sF. I wimped out and got a long sleeved shirt for the start and planned on discarding it at a water station when I got warm. The shirt over my singlet was nice since the temp at the start was 47F. Susan’s niece (let’s call her SN) made a surprise visit to see if we’d actually go through with it. She and Susan’s sister (let’s call her SS) ended up acting as our support team. Without them the run would have been much more difficult and much less fun. Their role can’t be overstated. SN dropped us off so we could leave a bag at the runner’s tent and make our way to the start line. The crowd was pretty small and seemed to have quite a few newbies since we had to keep moving back to be at the back of the group. They used a shotgun as a start cannon. We were off! Well, not really. we waited for a while and then walked to the start line before we could start running. It was a small crowd but the entire route was pretty narrow. Once we got started running there were some nice surprises. The course was marked off in K (new to us) so the markers came a little faster than we were accustomed. The course wound through the zoo where I found a restroom and took advantage of no lines. We then came across the first of three small hills in the first several miles. None of them were troublesome but they were bigger than anything we have in Florida. About this time I realized that I was hot and was preparing to discard the overshirt. Another surprise occurred when we rounded a corner and there was our support team. How SS got through the traffic I don’t know. SN offered to take the shirt and ran along with us for a little bit. SN hadn’t done any running (a lot of mountain hiking but no running) and was wearing day-hikers. She still kept us with us while we talked. After a while SN went back to SS while we continued toward downtown Calgary. During the first ~8 miles we also talked with other people around us (well, OK, one of us talked). This was a mistake in that it took a lot of energy early in the run. We met and lost several groups as they either did run-walks or as they (or we) changed pace. Everyone we met was extremely friendly. We did pass a few people who were having a hard time and were obviously not going to make it. We met up with the support team just as the half marathon leaders came streaming past us. This was one of the more amazing parts of the run. A very large number of the halfers (leaders, midpackers, and tails) cheered us on.They didn’t know us from Martians but still took the energy to say something to us. There’s special something about most runners. The support team cheered us on and made sure we were OK. SS had done an excellent job of getting through the traffic AND finding where we were. The half marathoners made their turn back toward the finish line and we were on our own. The route had started to climb gently but steadily up the Bow River valley and way from Calgary. The crowd had thinned out (a lot!) and we were sharing the street with cars. This was the first time that I really thought about the fact that we were running a new distance event and that the distance was a marathon. What the event was called had never meant much to me but this was kinda neat. I started to fade a bit but made it to the turnaround point and started back – almost. The race organizers had the route take a right turn out of a park, travel 1/2 block, and THEN turn back toward the finish line. That little 1/2 block (see the picture) was a touch nasty. When we started back the support team met us yet again. How they were able to keep doing that is a mystery. SN had changed into some running-type shoes and spent the majority of the rest of the run with us. She’s a natural-born runner, if she wants to be. Her run was easily as big a deal as ours. I continued to fade but running down a slight incline was nice. The temperature had risen and the number of runners around us had gotten pretty small. Plus, the runners around us looked worse off than we were. Susan got a little ahead of me and we ran that way for several miles. At one point, SN came back to me from running with Susan and wanted to know if Susan should wait for me. I said No (or something that meant the same thing) and SN took off to tell Susan. SN did this several times until I caught up with Susan. SS took the car back to the finish area. We tanked about mile 21. The good thing was that there was never a point where we wanted to quit. Also, after the main tankage, we seemed to pick it up just a little. We passed a few runners who were getting into cars and passed other runners who were hurting big time. We made the final turn to the finish line. It was a nice sight. We crossed with the same finish time. The support team was at the finish area and it did seem to be a fitting end to a team effort. We started off a little fast but not too badly. Our realistic goal was to finish before the official course closing – 5:30. We made it but just barely. I do have the splits but there’s nothing interesting there other than the meltdown. One of the surprising numbers from this run was the number of Polar Calories burned – 4108. No wonder I faded. I did take gels every hour or so but I need to find something more. Also, my shirt seemed to be solid ammonia. Not that gentle whiff of ammonia but the kind of ammonia that grabs you by the nose hairs and asks, "Who’s your Daddy?" As mentioned before, we’ve already started the schedule for the next marathon in December. The first one was great and we’re looking forward to the next one. Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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Executive summary: It was glorious. W e crashed. We burned. We immediately started planning our next one.

Good show and great attitude…Congrats Layne!!! — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

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Congrats Layne to you and Susan! And thanks for the interesting report. 150-200 mls (5-7 ounces) of Sports Drink every 15 minutes works for me on my marathons. Anthony.

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Way to go, Layne! And Susan, too. give her a hug for me. Welcome to the club. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin"

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Layne! Congratulations on your first marathon! Great to hear that despite some "fading" in the final miles, you finished strong and with another race in mind. I liked the report…. I felt like I was there (and didn’t really want to be there :) Keep up the great work. I’m looking forward to your next marathon report. Cam

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Woo hoo! Nice race, Layne. Nice report. Congratulations! You know you’re a marathoner now: you had a long, drawn-out, painful experience and are already planning the next one. Hah! One of the surprising numbers from this run was the number of Polar Calories burned – 4108. No wonder I faded. I did take gels every hour or so but I need to find something more.

Sounds as if you need to take gels more often; my method is half a gel every 2-3 miles (depending on where the water stations are), along with 6 ounces of water; that seems to be the right mix. As mentioned before, we’ve already started the schedule for the next marathon in December.

See you at White Rock?? Again, congrats! — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personal Time: 5:20:30 Personal Pace: 12:14 Event URL: http://www.stampederoadrace.com Results URL: http://www.raceheadquarters.com/results/2003/run/stampm.htm Pictures: http://curly.cis.unf.edu/pics/sports/calgary03/calg03.html We started off a little fast but not too badly. Our realistic goal was to finish before the official course closing – 5:30. We made it but just barely. I do have the splits but there’s nothing interesting there other than the meltdown. One of the surprising numbers from this run was the number of Polar Calories burned – 4108. No wonder I faded. I did take gels every hour or so but I need to find something more. Also, my shirt seemed to be solid ammonia. Not that gentle whiff of ammonia but the kind of ammonia that grabs you by the nose hairs and asks, "Who’s your Daddy?" As mentioned before, we’ve already started the schedule for the next marathon in December. The first one was great and we’re looking forward to the next one. Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

ALL RIGHT! Way to go Layne! I’ve been waiting to read your report, I was almost to the point of bugging you about it (but luckily for you I’ve been really really busy). So glad to hear you and Susan made it, under time, and are already planning the next! That’s a great sign. It took me a couple of weeks before I was sure I wanted to try another. Yes, burns lots of calories. I have to take a gel every 40 minutes or so, (most marathons in the US it means every other water stop), and I’m still feeling a little light-headed at the end. I might even try taking in more on the next marathon. My stomach has gotten better and better, I can even now do my long runs in the AM right after eating a big bowl of cereal. But I have found out never to eat oranges in a marathon! All three times I tried it they made my stomach turn. It turns out that it was a good thing Claude and I couldn’t get to Calgary after all. We had a big family emergency that weekend and ended up having to fly up to Portland. Would have been very disappointing to get to Calgary and then have to miss the marathon. So, have you picked out a Dec marathon yet? Er, I will definately (barring serious injury) be running the Tucson Marathon again this year, and… it’s almost all downhill….fast course, good support… hint hint…;-) If I don’t completely kill myself there I’d also then like to run the new Arizona Rock n’ Roll up in Phoenix in Jan. But I’ll bet you guys have a good local marathon already in mind? But so Glad to hear it went well and you both finished without serious difficulty (always some small ones in a marathon..). Now I’ll pop over and go see the pics!!! Big Congratulations!!! Teresa in AZ (Still a madhouse here at work, but I *had* to reply!)

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Executive summary: It was glorious. W e crashed. We burned. We immediately started planning our next one. Event Name: Calgary Marathon – AKA 39th Annual Stampede Road Race

Great effort, Layne and Susan! Congratulations on your first marathon. We tanked about mile 21. The good thing was that there was never a point where we wanted to quit. Also, after the main tankage, we seemed to pick it up just a little.

Way to go and hang in there! Sounds like even though things didn’t go quite as desired you had enough training to recover and pull through One of the surprising numbers from this run was the number of Polar Calories burned – 4108. No wonder I faded.

Like you, I’m not sure if these things relate to real calories, but it’s a nice quantitative method of recording output for the workout. As mentioned before, we’ve already started the schedule for the next marathon in December. The first one was great and we’re looking forward to the next one.

Yea! There you go. Great attitude to have ball in motion already for next major event! Between yours and Mike’s report, I’m not sure I have any energy to work today Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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Executive summary: It was glorious. W e crashed. We burned. We immediately started planning our next one.

Excellent. Congratulations to both of you. Walk it, crawl it, run it, drive it…. any way you look at it, 26.2 miles is damn far. Leo

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Layne, great job and thanks for the usual entertaining report. Best to your better half. chris

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Way to go, Layne! And Susan, too. give her a hug for me. Welcome to the club.

Thanks, Mike. Will do. I’m kinda surprised at how much this distance has come to mean. Susan is talking tombstone text "She finished a marathon." I just hope they find my body. Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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Thanks, Cam. What? You aren’t totally enthralled by marathons??? I was gonna suggest that you run back with us but I really do think that most people would get injured doing that

Thanks. Shh, but there’s this little swamp 50K next Spring – and it’s flat! Gimme gators, snakes, and leeches over hills any day. Of course, that may change. Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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Executive summary: It was glorious. W e crashed. We burned. We immediately started planning our next one. Good show and great attitude…Congrats Layne!!!

Thanks, Doug. I did think about you doing the 100 (at about mile 25). It truly didn’t help

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Congrats Layne to you and Susan!

Thanks, Anthony. I’ll pass it along to her. And thanks for the interesting report. 150-200 mls (5-7 ounces) of Sports Drink every 15 minutes works for me on my marathons.

Hmm, good thought. I tried a cup of water and a cup of Gatorade at every water station plus carried a 16 oz bottle with me. I also did gels and Succeed Caps. Of course, 15 minutes for me ain’t the same distance as 15 minutes for you

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Woo hoo! Nice race, Layne. Nice report. Congratulations! You know you’re a marathoner now: you had a long, drawn-out, painful experience and are already planning the next one. Hah!

Hey, Brian. Thanks! I’d been through a divorce so this wasn’t too bad – and I still had my self respect when it was over! Yep, even 5 hour and 20 minute marathons are way better. The next one (marathon) is gonna be great. We’ll whip its butt. One of us has even started working out attack points. One of the surprising numbers from this run was the number of Polar Calories burned – 4108. No wonder I faded. I did take gels every hour or so but I need to find something more. Sounds as if you need to take gels more often; my method is half a gel every 2-3 miles (depending on where the water stations are), along with 6 ounces of water; that seems to be the right mix.

I’m with you on this one. I’ll take your suggestion and try gels more often during training runs. I’m also thinking of trying something more solid like Powerbars or something equally as extreme (burgers, tacos, sweet and sour chicken, coq au vin). Damn, now THAT would be the way to do a marathon. As mentioned before, we’ve already started the schedule for the next marathon in December. See you at White Rock??

The Jax marathon is on the same day and we’ve already registered for it. However, next year …. Actually, I’d really like to do one of those FW zoo events – got fond memories of that area

Thanks very much, Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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Thanks, Teresa. We did miss ya’ll. It was great. Even the Stampede had some interesting stuff. I avoided it – A LOT – but Susan went with her sister to several of the downtown events. Susan’s sister is one of the sponsors of a racing chuckwagon called the Chick Wagon. They had special seats for some of the races and poked around the midway a bit. The parade was amazing – even *I* enjoyed it. Yes, burns lots of calories. I have to take a gel every 40 minutes or so, (most marathons in the US it means every other water stop), and I’m still feeling a little light-headed at the end. I might even try taking in more on the next marathon. My stomach has gotten better and better, I can even now do my long runs in the AM right after eating a big bowl of cereal. But I have found out never to eat oranges in a marathon! All three times I tried it they made my stomach turn.

I think you’re on to something (both with my lack of enough gels and the oranges). The Calgary Marathon had water stations about every 2 miles (they did an excellent organizational job) and using your technique would have been better. The electrolytes (Succeed Caps) seemed to be fine but the Caloric intake (glycogen management) seemed a little off. Hot dog, something new to work on. I also agree about stomachs getting better. I’ve been doing some wine writeups for beginners lately and have found that I can go for a casual run right after doing in a good bit of wine (against physician’s orders but …). It’s those "short" intense runs (5-10K) that seem to invite ralph. It turns out that it was a good thing Claude and I couldn’t get to Calgary after all. We had a big family emergency that weekend and ended up having to fly up to Portland. Would have been very disappointing to get to Calgary and then have to miss the marathon.

I’m very sorry to hear that. I hope things have worked out. No, that wouldn’t have been a good trip if you had tried it. Calgary was a lot of fun, the marathon was small, and the people were wonderful. I wouldn’t say that it’s a must-do event but we had a good time. So, have you picked out a Dec marathon yet? Er, I will definately (barring serious injury) be running the Tucson Marathon again this year, and… it’s almost all downhill….fast course, good support… hint hint…;-) If I don’t completely kill myself there I’d also then like to run the new Arizona Rock n’ Roll up in Phoenix in Jan. But I’ll bet you guys have a good local marathon already in mind?

Yep, the Jax Marathon is on December 14. If I remember correctly, the Tuscon Marathon is a week before. Susan has implemented a new ploy that I’ve just cottoned on to – travel to running events. I don’t get out much. With White Rock about the same time, we’re going to have to do some serious coordination. And then there’s the Sunmart, … Wow, thons in December AND January? Woof. The Arizona RnR sounds like quite a party. But so Glad to hear it went well and you both finished without serious difficulty (always some small ones in a marathon..). Now I’ll pop over and go see the pics!!! Big Congratulations!!!

Please do. The pics are a hoot – not very good but still a hoot. One odd thing was that I was ready run on the day after. I felt a little guilty about how good I felt. (?) Thanks! Teresa in AZ (Still a madhouse here at work, but I *had* to reply!)

I hear you. Work is a pig. And, I’m not even under contract this summer! At least we still have our dignity. BWAAAAA-HAAAAA-HAAAAA! Thanks again, Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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Executive summary: It was glorious. W e crashed. We burned. We immediately started planning our next one. Event Name: Calgary Marathon – AKA 39th Annual Stampede Road Race Great effort, Layne and Susan! Congratulations on your first marathon.

Thanks, Dot. It was fun and definitely a whole new door. Persistence (or stubbornness, potatoes-potahtoes) pays off yet again. We tanked about mile 21. The good thing was that there was never a point where we wanted to quit. Also, after the main tankage, we seemed to pick it up just a little. Way to go and hang in there! Sounds like even though things didn’t go quite as desired you had enough training to recover and pull through

It was weird. I kept expecting to feel this "never again" feeling but nada. Yeah, I like your take on it – training as opposed to muleheadedness

LOL. It does go against common physiology, doesn’t it? But, hey, my Momma said I was special. Of course, she always followed that with a crazy laugh. The highest PCal I had seen on a training run was about 2500. However, my average HR was 139 which is mondo low. Who knows? As mentioned before, we’ve already started the schedule for the next marathon in December. The first one was great and we’re looking forward to the next one. Yea! There you go. Great attitude to have ball in motion already for next major event!

You betcha. I have a race slut rep to uphold. And, now I have a new distance category. Between yours and Mike’s report, I’m not sure I have any energy to work today

I don’t know how the boy was able to do it – let alone train for it! Wears me out just thinking about it, too. I wonder if he’d like to drive down and join us for the Tour de Pain this weekend? Thanks, Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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Executive summary: It was glorious. W e crashed. We burned. We immediately started planning our next one. Excellent. Congratulations to both of you. Walk it, crawl it, run it, drive it…. any way you look at it, 26.2 miles is damn far.

Hi there, Leo. You got that right. It was close to discouraging to look back at the city on the horizon when we were at the farthest point on the "out" leg. We’d also just past a guy who was suffering big time and trying to decide whether to DNF (he did). Still, it got done. It wasn’t pretty but then neither am I. "To boldly go where this boy hasn’t gone before." Hmm, but there was that one girl back in the recreational sex days of the early 1970s … NEVER MIND. Thanks, Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

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The Jax marathon is on the same day and we’ve already registered for it.

I thought that might be what you were referring to. We haven’t registered yet, but that’s Toni’s "goal" race. She wants to do sub-5 and I’ve committed to pacing her to it. On a flat course like Jax, y’all should be in that range, too. Wanna tag along?

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Thanks, Cam. What? You aren’t totally enthralled by marathons???

No. I did my one. That might be it for me. I’m not addicted to that sort of distance. That amount of running training just doesn’t agree with my body. Nor with my tastes in training. I definitely prefer more variety, like triathlon training, where I can keep running but can work other sports into the training AND the race. And no, the Ironman isn’t exactly my goal, either. But there ARE half-Ironman races…. Thanks. Shh, but there’s this little swamp 50K next Spring – and it’s flat! Gimme gators, snakes, and leeches over hills any day. Of course, that may change.

Yoiks! Sounds like an Eco-Challenge to me. Best of luck in your swam training. Cam — Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

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ALL RIGHT! Way to go Layne! I’ve been waiting to read your report, I was Thanks, Teresa. We did miss ya’ll. It was great. Even the Stampede had some interesting stuff. I avoided it – A LOT – but Susan went with her sister to several of the downtown events. Susan’s sister is one of the sponsors of a racing chuckwagon called the Chick Wagon. They had special seats for some of the races and poked around the midway a bit. The parade was amazing – even *I* enjoyed it.

Yeah, I was hoping to go and see some of it, being a "horse nut" and all. Maybe another year! Yes, burns lots of calories. I have to take a gel every 40 minutes or so, (most marathons in the US it means every other water stop), and I’m still I think you’re on to something (both with my lack of enough gels and the oranges). The Calgary Marathon had water stations about every 2 miles (they did an excellent organizational job) and using your technique would have been better. The electrolytes (Succeed Caps) seemed to be fine but the Caloric intake (glycogen management) seemed a little off. Hot dog, something new to work on. I also agree about stomachs getting better. I’ve been doing some wine writeups for beginners lately and have found that I can go for a casual run right after doing in a good bit of wine (against physician’s orders but …). It’s those "short" intense runs (5-10K) that seem to invite ralph.

I forgot to mention that in addition to gels every other water stop, at the non-gel stops I’d take in a large cup of the sports drink. So even more calories! And I still think I need to take in more next time. There’s always more to work on. So, have you picked out a Dec marathon yet? Er, I will definately But I’ll bet you guys have a good local marathon already in mind? Yep, the Jax Marathon is on December 14. If I remember correctly, the Tuscon Marathon is a week before. Susan has implemented a new ploy that I’ve just cottoned on to – travel to running events. I don’t get out much. With White Rock about the same time, we’re going to have to do some serious coordination. And then there’s the Sunmart, …

That’s what I thought, I seemed to have remembered you (or someone) mentioning a Fla marathon in Dec. Yep, travel to running events is FUN! We had such a blast last summer in San Francisco. That’s what I was hoping to do again this summer but things got in the way. Next summer fer sure! Wow, thons in December AND January? Woof. The Arizona RnR sounds like quite a party.

I figure I’ll really run Tucson Marathon and just coast and enjoy the RnR. It does sound like a lot of fun and a lot to see, so doing it as just a fun run without worrying about time sounds about right. over and go see the pics!!! Big Congratulations!!! Please do. The pics are a hoot – not very good but still a hoot. One odd thing was that I was ready run on the day after. I felt a little guilty about how good I felt. (?) Thanks! Teresa in AZ (Still a madhouse here at work, but I *had* to reply!) I hear you. Work is a pig. And, I’m not even under contract this summer! At least we still have our dignity. BWAAAAA-HAAAAA-HAAAAA!

PFFT! Darn, there goes the coffee over the keyboard AGAIN! Thanks again, Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

Don’t feel guilty about feeling good – I felt my best after my *fastest* marathon! And worst after my slowest… Hmmm, I guess a good incentive to keep trying to go fast! But that means you didn’t harm your body too much this first time, so you know now what limits you have for the next marathon. Teresa in AZ

Response:

The Jax marathon is on the same day and we’ve already registered for it. I thought that might be what you were referring to. We haven’t registered yet, but that’s Toni’s "goal" race. She wants to do sub-5 and I’ve committed to pacing her to it. On a flat course like Jax, y’all should be in that range, too. Wanna tag along?

Hot damn! You betcha. Now that we’ve gotten the idea that we can actually finish one, we’re looking at just under 5. Sounds like a pack. It’s a biggie (double points) in the Jax Grand Prix so Susan may do a little dueling with one of her rivals who did a 5:05 last year. But I’m up for packing a lunch. I promise not to talk to Toni at the start – too much. The Blue Room still has ya’ll’s names on it, if you’d like. Yep, it’s gonna be fun, Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

Response:

We tanked about mile 21. The good thing was that there was never a point where we wanted to quit.

I hope there was a point where you

Follow up to 4 minute mile vs. Mt. Everest

admin — Thu, 22 May 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

That’s what happens when you go anonymous. Anyone else can fake being you.

You obviously credited me with that quote, it was Goodmans quote. Bill R. OO

Response:

Learn how to read. Your skirt^H^H^H^H^Hkilt is on too tight. He’s Mexican (or claims to be) so he’s not wearing a kilt.

That’s what happens when you go anonymous. Anyone else can fake being you.

Response:

Why in the world [sic] do you think that only one or 2 people have run it?

Why in the world does WHO think this? Learn how to read. Your skirt^H^H^H^H^Hkilt is on too tight.

Response:

Learn how to read. Your skirt^H^H^H^H^Hkilt is on too tight.

He’s Mexican (or claims to be) so he’s not wearing a kilt. tell you it’s him. Bill R. OO

Response:

Now HOW fast are you going to run down the mountain??

With all that extra equipment weight your terminal velocity will be higher! That should help your speed! — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

Response:

(Just try, if you don’t believe me!)

WELL I’LL JUST DO THAT! I’ll report back on how long it took me. Bill R. OO

Response:

We’re assuming he’s not *running* straight down. If there’s a sheer cliff face alongside him he could be helping himself gain speed.

Umm, don’t be stupid. He’d use lead weights to make him heavier, then he’d fall faster. Bill R. OO

Response:

Masters track records are a screwed-up mess, but the "official" mile record for a masters male outdoors is 4:02.53 by David Moorcroft in 1993. You mean, you’re not supposed to be able to run 4 minute miles anymore past 40? That’s silly. 40’s not even old anymore. I mean, it’s not like it’s the Dark Ages or 20th century or something.

Who in the hell said you’re not supposed to run 4 min miles after 40, MR.Smart-Alec??? 40 is old for running sub 4 minute miles. Why in the world do you think that only one or 2 people have run it? Can you do it? I bet not. Get down from your pedestal, dude.. Bill R.

Response:

Will the real Bill R please stand up. I am having a hard time telling you two apart. Goodman Brown "She was a talker, wasn’t she?" Bobby Lee said, sliding down the ditch with a yodel. "She would of been a good woman," The Misfit said, "if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life."

Response:

Will the real Bill R please stand up. I am having a hard time telling you two apart. Goodman Brown

RU retarded or something? One ends in "aol.com" (the real me) and Itchys ends in "hotmail.com". See? Not so hard. Bill R. OO

Response:

No Bill, even in vacuum it takes more than 18 seconds to fall one mile.

We’re assuming he’s not *running* straight down. If there’s a sheer cliff face alongside him he could be helping himself gain speed. — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

Response:

No Bill, even in vacuum it takes more than 18 seconds to fall one mile. We’re assuming he’s not *running* straight down. If there’s a sheer cliff face alongside him he could be helping himself gain speed. — Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

It IS possible to take the "big air" approach (jump off): The summit is 29035′ and Gorak Shep (base camp) is 17000′. This same fellow skied down Everest a lot faster in places than a 4 minute mile. But if you’re "running," a little perspective about what it’s like over there…. At 18,000 feet, the partial pressue of O2 is HALF what it is at sea level. Above 7000 meters, your body doesn’t want to move–up or down–as Oxygen molecules are few and far between. Also, you don’t just drop off at the summit from a helicopter; You’d be dead in a day from altitude sickness if you tried that (ignoring that a helicopter can’t get to that altitude anyway) without acclimatizing. Before you get to the summit, you have spent several days climbing at high altitude, in incredibly dry conditions, and you may be suffering from serious dehydration. You might not have been able to keep solid food down for days, because you lose your appetite at altitude. Now, that "track" that you’re going to run your sub-4 on is a mixture of snow and glacier. You have on climbing boots, that are actually a double boot (inner and outer) so that your feet don’t freeze when its -50F–or colder–outside. There are two types of boots can be used: a plastic technical version which is totally inflexible, or a leather version that is just slightly flexible. Either of these would make Army Boots seem like track spikes. But remember, you are running on ICE, so you have to attach crampons (steel devices with a dozen or so–there are several varieties–points on them) so you can climb or walk or glaciers. These aren’t exactly track spikes. Remember how cold it is outside–just a "little" colder than your last marathon. So you need a "few" extra clothes. My old expedition parka (a double coat so the air doesn’t leak through the seams) and expedition pants probably weight about 8 pounds combined, and that’s not enough: You also need underwear like Capilene under them. You also need expedition gloves, so you can grip your ice axe (another couple of pounds) without your hands suffering from frostbite in 5 minutes. All told, the equipment you need just to keep you alive up there probably adds 15-20 pounds to your body weight…not good for your relative VO2 max. Now HOW fast are you going to run down the mountain?? Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!" –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

Response:

Thought I’d post this follow up. Yesterday a 70 year old Japanese man became the oldest person to climb Mt. Everest. Obviously he isn’t going to run a 4 minute mile. What is the oldest someone has run a 4 minute mile. I know Frank Shorter and Eamon Coghlin were making attempts when they turned 40. And that one of them did it. Has the age advanced much beyond that? And how long before a 70 year old runs a 4 minute mile? Andy

Response:

No Bill, even in vacuum it takes more than 18 seconds to fall one mile. Sorry, it takes 16.9 seconds.

To fall 1400 meters. But to fall one mile (which is 1605 meters) you need 18.1 seconds (Just try, if you don’t believe me!) — Jos

Response:

Maybe he’ll run a sub-4 on the way back down.

One slip and he’ll be running a sub 10 second downhill. Bill R. OO

Response:

Maybe he’ll run a sub-4 on the way back down. One slip and he’ll be running a sub 10 second downhill.

No Bill, even in vacuum it takes more than 18 seconds to fall one mile. And even thought the air is pretty thin up there, it will still slow him down, so I doubt whether he’ll even come close to a sub-20 second mile (provided he’ll slip, to begin with!) — Jos

Response:

No Bill, even in vacuum it takes more than 18 seconds to fall one mile.

Sorry, it takes 16.9 seconds. Bill R. OO

Response:

Masters track records are a screwed-up mess, but the "official" mile record for a masters male outdoors is 4:02.53 by David Moorcroft in 1993.

You mean, you’re not supposed to be able to run 4 minute miles anymore past 40? That’s silly. 40’s not even old anymore. I mean, it’s not like it’s the Dark Ages or 20th century or something.

Response:

No Bill, even in vacuum it takes more than 18 seconds to fall one mile. Sorry, it takes 16.9 seconds.

Not with a block start; probably 14 or 15 with a good push off. I mean, that’s why they do block training in track.

Response:

Yesterday a 70 year old Japanese man became the oldest person to climb Mt. Everest. Obviously he isn’t going to run a 4 minute mile. What is the oldest someone has run a 4 minute mile. I know Frank Shorter and Eamon Coghlin were making attempts when they turned 40. And that one of them did it. Has the age advanced much beyond that? And how long before a 70 year old runs a 4 minute mile?

I’d think a 70-year-old could run a pretty fast mile if it were all downhill, on a steep enough hill. And that guy up on Everest is in the perfect position right now. Maybe he’ll run a sub-4 on the way back down. — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

Response:

Mike Boit ran sub-four at age 41 in an official race—–he was the first to do it at an age over 40. I personally timed him doing a sub-four in training at that age when he was a graduate student in my town. But, he couldn’t prove his age, as he was lacking the kind of birth certificate that’s issued in Western European cultures, so they officially snubbed his accomplishment. Eamon Coughlin’s over-40 sub-four was done indoors. The only reason that many more runners haven’t done this is simply because they have used up their hunger for world-class running, before they reach that age. I’ve seen Mary Decker training recently and she looks tougher and faster than ever. She’s over 40 now and if the IAAF ever gets tired of falsely persecuting her on bogus premises, she may be the next to do it. Steve McDonald

Response:

Since this post connects running and climbing, I thought I’d share this: A few years ago my wife and I went to lecture by Ed Viesturs. For those that don’t know, he is a world class climber having ascended many of the worlds 8000+ meter peaks. Some of these have been with no oxygen including Everest. He was there on Everest as a consultant to the IMax filming team dunring the 1996 disaster. Anyway, Ed told of one Everest ascent (It might have been the IMax climb, I can’t remember), where he was going to the top from camp four (the highest camp). The plan was for Ed to start first a few hours before the group, going solo, and break a snow trail for the others to follow in and eventually catch up since Ed was presumably going slower having to break the trail. He said would climb for a while and then wait. Not seeing the rest of the party, he would go a little further up. This went on for several hours until eventuall he was at the summit where the other climbers eventually caught up, having climbed in his snow break. Everyone had oxygen but Ed. I couldn’t help but think of what he could have done in a 10k. Doesn’t mean he would be would class like the climber he is but it would be interesting to see a result if he had a little bit of running training. Doug Burke

Response:

Coghlin did it on an indoor track, and is still (iirc) the only guy to have done so. There is still nobody who has managed it on the outdoor. Steve Scott took a shot at it but couldn’t make it. I don’t recall hearing about Shorter trying. And how long before a 70 year old runs a 4 minute mile?

Hm. A bit of estimating involved … The age adjustment for a 70 year old at 10k is about 25% of his time (iirc, ymmv, etc.) So that a 70 year old who runs a 50 minute 10k is performing comparably to an open class runner who does 37.5. Let’s assume, for ball-parking purposes, that the same proportion holds for the mile. A 70 year old running a 4 minute mile is then equivalent to open class running a 3 minute mile (4×45 second quarters). I think I’ll vote for ‘never’. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

it was eamonn coghlan in 1994 – 3:58:15. i couldn’t find anyone else after that, on the web. found a link which said steve scott was going to attempt that at age 42. don’t know what happened. And how long before a 70 year old runs a 4 minute mile? Andy

hmmm… i think it’s going to be a little while. maybe well into the next century. for everest, the youngest is 18 years, IIRC. jobs

Response:

Eamonn Coughlin is the only person to run sub-4 after 40. But this was on the tuned track at Harvard, which is not the same thing as doing it outdoors. Nobody has run sub-4 outdoors after 40, Coughlin included. And of course, no female of any age has come close to a sub-4 mile. Masters track records are a screwed-up mess, but the "official" mile record for a masters male outdoors is 4:02.53 by David Moorcroft in 1993. Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!" –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

Response:

? running websites

admin — Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hello to Anyone I was wondering if you could let me know of any good running sites besides the obvious Magazines online. Could you tell me why you like it, and what does it have to offer Just looking for some fresh perspective Thanks Scottie

Response:

ahh, what are you looking for a fresh perspective from? That is, what are your interests and background. Are you looking for races (track, road, trail, sprints, ultras), different kinds of running, training, injury prevention, gear, …? One that I use frequently for training is http://www.pponline.co.uk/ but if you’ve been lurking here a lot, you’re probably already familiar with that one. It has both training and injury prevention information with justification (including journal articles in some cases) and excellent search engine. My interests are a little different than most people, so I like to understand *why* behind certain kinds of training so I can adapt them to my purposes. Some glossy magazines I’ve read tend to have articles that are more like abstracts to me, although they may trigger my interest to learn more. YMMV, depending on your interests. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

'Millions' Aid and Abet Osamma Bin Laden,and Saddam Whoseinsane

admin — Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1941: "FDR’s speech was largely a warning about complacency. Roosevelt cautioned against "loose talk of our immunity." He said there were "secret agents" in the United States plotting an attack. "The need of the moment," he declared, "is that our actions and our policy should be devoted primarily–almost exclusively–to meeting this foreign peril." "Like Bush, he asked that this be done "without regard to partisanship." Where FDR cast the United States as a beacon for a world to be built upon four freedoms–of speech, of religion, from want, and from fear–Bush declared seven "non-negotiable demands of human dignity: the rule of law; limits on the power of the state; respect for women; private property; free speech; equal justice; and religious tolerance." 1) "the rule of law" BU$H’s executive orders insures that he can suspend the Constitution at will, confiscate private property and force free Americans into work camps. WOW! Shades of Soviet Russia and Communism, huh? Let me know exactly when he suspends the Constitution at his will, and when he confiscates private property (he must be an anti-capitalist?) and force Americans into work camps. Sounds like you are describing a pseudo-liberal socialist’s agenda.

READ IT FOR YOURSELF! http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/orders/ F.E.M.A. (Federal Emergency Management Agency) has been authorized by Presidential Executive Orders to confiscate all property from the American People, separate families in the current 43 internment camps (already built and operational by the way, 5 of which are located in Georgia. The largest can confine somewhere on the order of 100,000 American citizens), called relocation camps by the government, for assignment to work camps; declares martial law and totally overrides the U.S. Constitution. Presidential Executive Orders that are related or control this are given at the end of this. Two of the state prisons here in Georgia are currently empty, although manned by a minimul number of staff, have been setup and intentionally unpopulated by prisoners just to support this political policy. Concentration (internment) Camps. An Executive Order signed by then President Bush in 1989 authorized the Federal Emergency Management Agency (F.E.M.A.) to build 43 primary camps (having a capacity of 35,000 to 45,000 prisoners EACH) and also authorized hundreds of secondary facilities. It is interesting to note that several of these facilities can accommodate 100,000 prisoners. These facilities have been completed and many are already manned but as yet contain no prisoners. (Remember all the talk of over-crowded prisons that exist…). In south Georgia there are several state prisons that except for a few guards, are completly devoid of prisoners. Under F.E.M.A., the Executive Orders which are already written and is the current law of the land, calls for the COMPLETE suspension of the United States Constitution, all rights and liberties, as they are currently known. The following executive orders, which are in the Federal Register located in Washington DC for anyone to request copies of, call for the suspension of all civil rights and liberties and for extraordinary measures to be taken in, as most of the orders state, "any national security emergency situation that might confront the government." When F.E.M.A. is implemented, the following executive orders will be immediately enforced:

Response:

1) "the rule of law" BU$H’s executive orders insures that he can suspend the Constitution at will, confiscate private property and force free Americans into work camps. 2)"limits on the power of the state" a fucking joke coming from Dubya. 3)"respect for women" BU$H wants to overturn Roe v. Wade. 4) "private property" see #2 5) "free speech" this can get you declared an enemy of the state and as such, you can be detained without charges and denied cousel indefinitely. 6) "equal justice" see above. 7) "religious tolerance"aother fucking joke coming from Dubya.

Response:

Millions of idiots pranced in the streets yesterday,and today a second tape appears from Ossama Bin Laden. Thanks ! Thanks a lot !

If you don’t like Democracy, more to Iran.

Response:

WOW! Shades of Soviet Russia and Communism, huh? Let me know exactly when he suspends the Constitution at his will, and when he confiscates private property (he must be an anti-capitalist?) and force Americans into work camps. Sounds like you are describing a pseudo-liberal socialist’s agenda. 2)"limits on the power of the state" a fucking joke coming from Dubya.

Limits on the power of the state just may not coincide with what YOU think should be limited. 3)"respect for women" BU$H wants to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Partial-birth abortion procedures respect nothing, absolutely nothing and no one. 4) "private property" see #2 5) "free speech" this can get you declared an enemy of the state and as such, you can be detained without charges and denied cousel indefinitely.

Hey, my foes in here will gladly give Bush my name because I insult courtier members of Congress everyday. I want to setup a guillotine for them. I want them to suffer a "Reign of Terror" for their taxation legislation. I want to burn them at the stake fueled by IRS tomes. 6) "equal justice" see above.

You need a referral to the ACLU. 7) "religious tolerance"aother fucking joke coming from Dubya.

Most conspicious are the intolerant rants from atheists. As an agnostic, I feel this opinion is based an impartial observation. Atheists are so irrational and egocentric, and viciously disrespectful. They fear religions, and mock religious people with utmost disdain. They do ignore fanatical Islamism, yet to indiscriminate extremes, they verbally persecute and antagonize Christians, demanding denial of their holiday expressions and public observances. A major tenet of Karl Marx was that religion was the opiate of the people. For atheists, fanatical atheism is their opiate. It seems only fair and eqalitarian to believe so. Extremism and intolerance shouts so loudly, and for us, that it is the very best forewarning. Thanks. from Nan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Millions of idiots pranced in the streets yesterday,and today a second tape appears from Ossama Bin Laden. Thanks ! Thanks a lot ! Now I’m here watching Secratry Ridge on ABC saying that we need to extend the terror alert,and that there is word of men who were training in Afghan camps (illegally) and are now in the US?. These anti-war people are the minority,and can’t stand it. Poor poor babies… If the majority of people who are for the war got up and marched around making fools of themselves,they would have swallowed up these ‘Millions’. But the majority doesn’t have to stoop to extemist behavior to get things done. In a Democracy the majority get their way. I have a message for these millions…. Get over it you whiny babies ! You had your chance at the polls,and you lost. You’re going to get us all killed. Just shut up already.

I thought they were exercising their First Amendment rights to free speech, at least in the U.S.A. That exercise deserves support.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Millions of idiots pranced in the streets yesterday,and today a second tape appears from Ossama Bin Laden. Thanks ! Thanks a lot ! Now I’m here watching Secratry Ridge on ABC saying that we need to extend the terror alert,and that there is word of men who were training in Afghan camps (illegally) and are now in the US?. These anti-war people are the minority,and can’t stand it. Poor poor babies… If the majority of people who are for the war got up and marched around making fools of themselves,they would have swallowed up these ‘Millions’. But the majority doesn’t have to stoop to extemist behavior to get things done. In a Democracy the majority get their way. I have a message for these millions…. Get over it you whiny babies ! You had your chance at the polls,and you lost. You’re going to get us all killed. Just shut up already. I thought they were exercising their First Amendment rights to free speech, at least in the U.S.A. That exercise deserves support.

Joanie likes Dictators! The Bush Dictatorship June 17, 2002 A BUZZFLASH NEWS ANALYSIS We have crossed over into the first stage of a dictatorship when American citizens can no longer exercise their First Amendment rights in the presence of an unelected president who, by his own admission, prefers dictatorships to democracies. Over the weekend, BuzzFlash headlined several stories about Ohio State University graduates who were threatened with expulsion and arrest if they even silently protested Bush, by turning their backs to him, during their commencement services. July 27, 2001 | WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush conceded Thursday he’s had his struggles with Congress and is bound to have more, joking that "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator," Bush mumbled http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm Reagan, Bush & Saddam = Best Buddies http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20020923/1048504.asp FOREIGN POLICY U.S. sent Iraq germs in mid-’80s By DOUGLAS TURNER News Washington Bureau Chief 9/23/2002

Response:

1941: "FDR’s speech was largely a warning about complacency. Roosevelt cautioned against "loose talk of our immunity." He said there were "secret agents" in the United States plotting an attack. "The need of the moment," he declared, "is that our actions and our policy should be devoted primarily–almost exclusively–to meeting this foreign peril." "Like Bush, he asked that this be done "without regard to partisanship." Where FDR cast the United States as a beacon for a world to be built upon four freedoms–of speech, of religion, from want, and from fear–Bush declared seven "non-negotiable demands of human dignity: the rule of law; limits on the power of the state; respect for women; private property; free speech; equal justice; and religious tolerance." Regards, from Nan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to terrorize himself." — Pres. GW Bush, Grand Rapids, Mich., Jan. 29, 2003

Response:

If the majority of people who are for the war got up and……

Joanie they should ENLIST IMMEDIATLEY! They should have thier kids ENLIST IMMEDIATELY! I don’t see any of the jingoistic warmongers ENLISTING!

Response:

Hehehe…its funny how those in a rush to go to war are not in a rush to enlist.

Response:

Millions of idiots pranced in the streets yesterday,and today a second tape appears from Ossama Bin Laden. Thanks ! Thanks a lot ! Now I’m here watching Secratry Ridge on ABC saying that we need to extend the terror alert,and that there is word of men who were training in Afghan camps (illegally) and are now in the US?. These anti-war people are the minority,and can’t stand it. Poor poor babies… If the majority of people who are for the war got up and marched around making fools of themselves,they would have swallowed up these ‘Millions’. But the majority doesn’t have to stoop to extemist behavior to get things done. In a Democracy the majority get their way. I have a message for these millions…. Get over it you whiny babies ! You had your chance at the polls,and you lost. You’re going to get us all killed. Just shut up already. ===== Feb 16, 6:44 AM EST http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_DEVELOPMENTS?SITE=OHC… Key Developments Concerning Iraq By The Associated Press Developments in the Iraq crisis: – An audiotape purportedly from Osama bin Laden calls President Bush "stupid" and claims American war plans against Iraq are part of a plot to attack Muslim nations in the Middle East and North Africa. The tape appeared to be the same 53-minute recording of which a few excerpts were released Thursday by the British-based Islamic Al-Ansaar news agency. – Iraq’s tightly controlled news media gave prominent coverage to anti-war demonstrations staged around the world on Saturday, saying anti-war demonstrations in dozens of countries signaled an Iraqi victory and "the defeat and isolation of America." – Iraq’s foreign minister says fellow Arab states should do more to avert a possible U.S.-led war. Naji Sabri’s remarks came hours before Arab foreign ministers opened formal discussions about holding an emergency summit in Cairo on the crisis. – Tens of thousands of people gathered in downtown Sydney and around Australia to protest possible war with Iraq and their country’s involvement.

Response:

Uh, watch TV much? jan "The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to terrorize himself." — Pres. GW Bush, Grand Rapids, Mich., Jan. 29, 2003

Response:

This is news to you? Well, here’s some more news for you. Despite our ongoing military action in Afghanistan, and having installed a more-or-less friendly government there, alQaeda is still running training camps there, according to a newsweek reporter who claimed to have spoken with trainees. These anti-war people are the minority,and can’t stand it.

Don’t read the papers much, do you? Both here in the states, and around the world, a majority believe the inspectors should be given more time, and that no military action should be contemplated without further UN approval. Poor poor babies… If the majority of people who are for the war got up and marched around making fools of themselves,they would have swallowed up these ‘Millions’.

So why didn’t they? I recall Nixon talking about the great "silent majority." Basically, he was claiming, as you are, that anyone who doesn’t publicly expound a position is a supporter of the administration position. But the majority doesn’t have to stoop to extemist behavior to get things done. In a Democracy the majority get their way. I have a message for these millions…. Get over it you whiny babies ! You had your chance at the polls,and you lost.

Polls? When did we get to vote on whether or not to go to war with Iraq? The only polls on this, both here in the states and world-wide, indicate that significant majorities want to see no war it this time. You’re going to get us all killed.

Bullshit! Just shut up already.

Show us how. Al Moore