Run Run Away

Question:

  You’re still ahead of me.  The 3:40 is for 2/17, and doesn’t have nearly that rise/fall.  I did, however, get word from a previous HAT runner about how the course compared to some of the local routes, and what I’ve been running is more or less comparable to the race route.

I’m using the HAT as a training run for Bull Run Run 50 mile race two weeks later. I don’t want you to think that nasty elevation runs are necessary for the HAT. I’m heavy into strength running aka hills, for the level I want to compete at plus recovery. These two races are stepping stones to a 100 in July. It’s all part a larger mission. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

Response:

For the training, this Saturday should be 3:40, Hell, you are ahead of me. I only did 3:20 last weekend but over 3K of up and 3k of down.   You’re still ahead of me.  The 3:40 is for 2/17, and doesn’t have nearly that rise/fall.

Ha! I’ve got you guys beat all to heck. Sunday I did 3 hours in knee deep snow (and that’s in sunny CA!) with 2000′ of climb. This Saturday will probably be 8-9 hours to do a 50K with 10,000′ of climb in knee deep mud :-0 — Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS* Trails of The Diablo Valley           *Running – Hiking – Nature*             http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/6016/

Response:

  Even lighter than I was toying with.  Definitely 3/3 is in mind for the last _long_ long run (4:00), and that week should be in the 50-60 mile range.  My tentative thinking is below.  If I read you right, you’d be in favor of knocking off at least one of the three ‘harder’ workouts from the week ending 3/10, and taking down one of the days for distance.  Week ending 3/17, you’d be suggesting dropping, say, the 10k marathon pace.  And the final week you’d move it to only two runs, and more like 3-4 miles? Week ending 3/10: Tempo run, 90-110 minute trail run, mile intervals total 30-35 miles

That sounds good. Week ending 3/17: Tempo run, 50-60 minute hilly trail run, 10k at marathon pace total 25-30 miles

This is where your history really comes into play. I seem to recall your base weeks before were in the 25-30 MPW range and that you run reasonably fast. So if you do a 50-60 minute trail run, I’m assuming that’s in the 7-8M range. Add in the 10K (which is OK) and that’s 13-14M. That means you’d be doing a 11-16M tempo run????? If I’m correct about your previous base, I’d suggest keeping the tempo to 6-8M and keeping the weeks total closer to 20-22M. You want this week to be easier than what your used to, but you still want to work some. And speedwork here is going to do you more good than endurance work at this point. Week ending 3/24: 3 relaxed short (4-5 miles) runs, Su-W

This week, you only want to enough to stay loose. In your case, if you want to run 3 days, I’d do an easy 3-4 Su, a 3M uptempo Tue, and a real easy 3M W. — Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS* Trails of The Diablo Valley           *Running – Hiking – Nature*             http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/6016/

Response:

I would agree with the 3 weeks for "virgins" More specifically, I’d recommend the longest run 3 weeks out (3/3?) then cut your weekly mileage/long run roughly in half each week. The week of the race, do your "long run" (6-8M) on the weekend and then no more than a real easy few miles once or twice through Wednesday. Then rest and eat!

  Even lighter than I was toying with.  Definitely 3/3 is in mind for the last _long_ long run (4:00), and that week should be in the 50-60 mile range.  My tentative thinking is below.  If I read you right, you’d be in favor of knocking off at least one of the three ‘harder’ workouts from the week ending 3/10, and taking down one of the days for distance.  Week ending 3/17, you’d be suggesting dropping, say, the 10k marathon pace.  And the final week you’d move it to only two runs, and more like 3-4 miles? Week ending 3/10: Tempo run, 90-110 minute trail run, mile intervals total 30-35 miles Week ending 3/17: Tempo run, 50-60 minute hilly trail run, 10k at marathon pace total 25-30 miles Week ending 3/24: 3 relaxed short (4-5 miles) runs, Su-W Thursday, Friday off — pay real attention to diet and sleep Weds-Fri                      – unlike my prior ideas, look for some intellectually                         challenging reading to do here race 50 km trails Saturday the 24th.   The last week or two, I’ve started going beyond the baseline idea of just getting miles on the legs, and thinking again about strength and speed.  Partly that is that from the heart rate discussions recently, I’m more confident that picking up the rate a little is not likely to be overdoing.  Partly it is that in doing so, my feet and knees are happier.  And part is that in the typical ‘base/strength/speed’ schedule, I’m probably due for some strength/speed.  So tonight is mile intervals on 5k-10k pace.  (Followed by an easy Weds, Thurs, Friday off, Saturday long — Friday off because I run those in the evening, but the long runs are in the morning.  12 hours, I expect, is not long enough recovery.)   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

yeah, but he could walk behind you! Good luck anyway, with or without the whip incentive.

  But if he walked, I’d be out of range fairly quickly (I may not run that fast, but I can walk pretty briskly)   Thanks. Hoping to break 1:35 for a half marathon in Austin next Sunday.

  Good luck — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

For the training, this Saturday should be 3:40, Hell, you are ahead of me. I only did 3:20 last weekend but over 3K of up and 3k of down.

  You’re still ahead of me.  The 3:40 is for 2/17, and doesn’t have nearly that rise/fall.  I did, however, get word from a previous HAT runner about how the course compared to some of the local routes, and what I’ve been running is more or less comparable to the race route.   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

I would agree with the 3 weeks for "virgins" More specifically, I’d recommend the longest run 3 weeks out (3/3?) then cut your weekly mileage/long run roughly in half each week. The week of the race, do your "long run" (6-8M) on the weekend and then no more than a real easy few miles once or twice through Wednesday. Then rest and eat! Taper?  Similar to a marathon.  If you want. It’s all about what your goal is for the race. For Robert I would suggest the three weeks to maximize his recovery. He is new at these training distances and a virgin for any 50K race. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

– Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS* Trails of The Diablo Valley           *Running – Hiking – Nature*             http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/6016/

Response:

Taper?  Similar to a marathon.  If you want.  It depends on your goals.  I took an extra rest day this week for my taper prior to the Jed Smith 50K.  I know that I didn’t need any more taper than that.  I wasn’t out to set a PR, nor was this my first attempt at the distance.  I knew what I needed to do to finish, and rest is always part of the equation.  Another ultra friend only took a single day of rest prior to Western States last year.  She did quite well earning a sub-24 hour silver buckle. You need to feel like you’re ready to run as long a time as you need to take to get to the finish.  If it’s 3 hours, 5 hours or 10 hours.  Plan for the time you need.  If you normally taper before a race, taper.  If not, take an extra day or two of rest.

How long to taper generates the same volume of energy and opinion as what should be the longest run before a race of distance N. The obvious answer is to find what works best for you. Most marathon training schedules suggest 3 weeks and what most people opt to do. Owen Anderson of Running Research News recommends four. Personally, I use two for the marathon through 50 miles and three for a 100. Unlike Todd, I choose only four races a year(I don’t count 10Ks), push each race and use a formal taper. My family and life style don’t accommodate time to do a fun race. But alas, I retire in a few weeks and I hope to reverse this problem. It’s all about what your goal is for the race. For Robert I would suggest the three weeks to maximize his recovery. He is new at these training distances and a virgin for any 50K race. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

Response:

Exactly when IS the Big Race?? <I know you told me, but I forgot   Doug already answered, but I’ll add: March 24th.  For the training, this Saturday should be 3:40, and March 3rd is planned as my last long run, 4:00.  Then three weeks of taper, once I find out (ultra runner guides — advice here?!) how to do so.  Only 3 weeks of real training left.  Yikes!

<snip Taper?  Similar to a marathon.  If you want.  It depends on your goals.  I took an extra rest day this week for my taper prior to the Jed Smith 50K.  I know that I didn’t need any more taper than that.  I wasn’t out to set a PR, nor was this my first attempt at the distance.  I knew what I needed to do to finish, and rest is always part of the equation.  Another ultra friend only took a single day of rest prior to Western States last year.  She did quite well earning a sub-24 hour silver buckle. You need to feel like you’re ready to run as long a time as you need to take to get to the finish.  If it’s 3 hours, 5 hours or 10 hours.  Plan for the time you need.  If you normally taper before a race, taper.  If not, take an extra day or two of rest. Todd

Response:

For the training, this Saturday should be 3:40,

Hell, you are ahead of me. I only did 3:20 last weekend but over 3K of up and 3k of down. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

Response:

Exactly when IS the Big Race?? <I know you told me, but I forgot

  Doug already answered, but I’ll add: March 24th.  For the training, this Saturday should be 3:40, and March 3rd is planned as my last long run, 4:00.  Then three weeks of taper, once I find out (ultra runner guides — advice here?!) how to do so.  Only 3 weeks of real training left.  Yikes! BTW, good luck, godspeed, and all that!

  Thank you!  The support around here has helped me through some obstacles already. Teresa. < 95 minutes and 9 miles is my extreme limit so far..more power to you ultra guys

  That’s right, not garden variety guys, but _ultra_ guys!  (Good advertising slogan?)   For what it’s worth, a year ago this time 95 minutes was about the longest I’d ever run (once to 100 minutes 2.5 years ago, but that was a one-off).  Didn’t pass 95 minutes until … …  October I think.     In other words, see you at next year’s HAT 50! — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

yeah, but he could walk behind you! Good luck anyway, with or without the whip incentive. Hoping to break 1:35 for a half marathon in Austin next Sunday. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lady T asked: Heeey Robert, Exactly when IS the Big Race?? March 24th and I may run right behind him with a large whip. http://www.hatrun.com/   Hah!  You can’t run that slowly! — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel.        I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

Response:

Hi, regarding the surface/foot thing, I find an  uneven surface ( dirt road, hard packed trail ) much less fatiguing than a long stretches of asphalt. As if the feet and ankles don’t like repetitive movements and like to be stressed at slight angles. It could also be the cushioning or the ball bearing effect of gravel and dirt. cheers, Scott

Response:

  I’m happy to report that Saturday’s run, 3:14, went very well and managed without running in to any ‘hedges’.  A number of downed trees in the park, but no hedges.

Great progress. You are understanding your fluid capacity and/or your caloric needs. If by chance race day is warmer than your practice runs, your fluid intake will need to be adjusted higher. As for food, if you like nuts, raisins, M&Ms, and/or dried fruit try trail mix, they pack well and provide good food source. Power bars et al also work well if you can tolerate the flavor. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

Response:

Sounds like you had fun.  I can’t imagine eating a PBJ while running though.  It takes quite a lot of fluid for me to choke down GU or Hammergel.

As strange as it sounds they go down like water off a ducks ass. Long before I ran the long stuff I can remember running two hours with an ultra friend and stopping at his house. He would shovel down a pair of PP&J and go back out for another two hours. I would cringe at the thought just like you. Now, I often toss down two Egg McMuffns and a large OJ before I even start. I’ll then damn near eat raw road kill when the hunger pangs hit. — Caveat Lector Doug "an eater that runs" Freese

Response:

Lady T asked: Heeey Robert, Exactly when IS the Big Race?? March 24th and I may run right behind him with a large whip. http://www.hatrun.com/

  Hah!  You can’t run that slowly! — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

food and take it with you. Eat it when the time is appropriate. If you don’t like the idea of eating on the ups at least take it with you and eat while departing the aid station.

Tip: Carry a small baggie to put the food in. Better tip: Find running shorts with a pocket to carry the baggie/food and you won’t squash it carrying it in your hand (a pocket works better than a pouch for this, IMHO). — Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS* Trails of The Diablo Valley           *Running – Hiking – Nature*             http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/6016/

Response:

The stopping and staring IS the race. You will find after a while it becomes second nature. A technique that many use is eating and drinking while walking the ups.

  Walking isn’t stopping, though.  When I said stopping, I meant zero motion.  So far, I haven’t had any luck eating loose munchables like peanuts etc while still walking.  I don’t have to stop for long, just enough to chuck a handful of whatever in, and then take care of the rest of the details while walking or even running.  But I do have to come to a full stop, so far. Strange yet wonderful mindset to run a marathon distance for a training run.  For my longer races I run better than a marathon every other week.  A lesson in relativity.

  Wow.  I knew you were fast, but not _that_ fast! — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

Heeey Robert, Exactly when IS the Big Race?? <I know you told me, but I forgot BTW, good luck, godspeed, and all that! Teresa. < 95 minutes and 9 miles is my extreme limit so far..more power to you ultra guys

Response:

Lady T asked: Heeey Robert, Exactly when IS the Big Race??

March 24th and I may run right behind him with a large whip. http://www.hatrun.com/ — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

Response:

Robert, Glad to hear you tried the PBJs.  As someone else mentioned, to the unitiated, it would seem that you would need more water to get them down while running.  My experience is that it doesn’t. I also like a mix of raisins, peanuts, and M&Ms.  Seems to provide enough energy and it’s easy to carry and eat as needed. Looking forward to your next report. Todd

Response:

I also like a mix of raisins, peanuts, and M&Ms.  Seems to provide enough energy and it’s easy to carry and eat as needed.   I like the idea, but as a practical matter I’d have to stop dead to eat them rather than inhale them.  The stopping isn’t so bad, but starting again is a challenge.  Time for more experimentation, or to overcome that reluctance to stop/start.

The stopping and staring IS the race. You will find after a while it becomes second nature. A technique that many use is eating and drinking while walking the ups. You don’t want to camp out at the aid stations so give your water bottle to the aid station person(assuming they offer the service), gulp a drink or two while there and grab some food and take it with you. Eat it when the time is appropriate. If you don’t like the idea of eating on the ups at least take it with you and eat while departing the aid station.   Thanks.  Should be two weeks.  I’m actually debating running a marathon that weekend.  It is (and boy does it seem strange that _I_, a self-imaged miler, am saying this) about the right distance for my planned long run that week, and there’s a marathon being hosted near me.  I think I’m going to go for the trails anyhow (the marathon is a road race) but it’s a thought …

Strange yet wonderful mindset to run a marathon distance for a training run.  For my longer races I run better than a marathon every other week.  A lesson in relativity. — Caveat Lector Doug Freese

Response:

Sounds like you had fun.  I can’t imagine eating a PBJ while running though.  It takes quite a lot of fluid for me to choke down GU or Hammergel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Last time I ran long (2:50) I encountered what I called ‘the hedge’ — not solid enough to call ‘the wall’ but a real bother, including sudden loss of speed and great increase in effort.  That happened at around 2:10, so I spent a lot (seemed to me!) of time feeling pretty bad.   The group being what it is, I put up the notes and received a lot of ideas, most focussing on fluid levels and nature, calories and better sources, and a bit on the surface (I ran the 2:50 on melting snow).   I’m happy to report that Saturday’s run, 3:14, went very well and managed without running in to any ‘hedges’.  A number of downed trees in the park, but no hedges. Fluids:   This time, I alternated (20 oz each) gatorade and lightly salted water. Took it in at a rate of 40 oz per hour (approx 1.2 L) for the first 2.5 hours.  At that point, I discovered a couple of things: 1) My body will only absorb about .7 L/hour (which is about the figure mentioned as a typical limit) and 2) the excess (some speculation when this limit was mentioned) gets excreted.  No problems with ‘bowling ball gut’ w.r.t. the gatorade. Calories:   Last time I took in almost no calories, the only ones coming from the gatorade.  This is a bad move!  This time around, some calories by way of snickers bar before the run, and then PBJ sandwiches (only 2 though) during the run.  Still not enough calories, I think, but at least this time I finished the entire duration without a hedge. (some suspiscion that the last few minutes might have been there, but I’m writing it off to the difficulty of running _away_ from the car for the last few minutes while having it in sight). Surface/foot twinge:   The first loop around the park, I ran on asphalt with a member of the Prince George’s county Road Runners.  Nice folks, and no real complaints from the foot (I mentioned some in a post on Friday). The next two loops I ran alone on the perimeter trail.  This was welcomed even better by the foot.  Seems strange to me that the uneven, irregular footing would be welcomed better by the feet, but that’s the observation.  It’s also a lot more pleasant being in touching distance of trees rather than cars!   So a very nice experiment.  Next time, which should be in 2 weeks, slightly less fluid and more calories.  And in the mean time, work on practicing and absorbing what Ozzie has contributed regarding feet and attendant muscles/tendons. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel.        I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

Response:

  Last time I ran long (2:50) I encountered what I called ‘the hedge’ — not solid enough to call ‘the wall’ but a real bother, including sudden loss of speed and great increase in effort.  That happened at around 2:10, so I spent a lot (seemed to me!) of time feeling pretty bad.   The group being what it is, I put up the notes and received a lot of ideas, most focussing on fluid levels and nature, calories and better sources, and a bit on the surface (I ran the 2:50 on melting snow).   I’m happy to report that Saturday’s run, 3:14, went very well and managed without running in to any ‘hedges’.  A number of downed trees in the park, but no hedges. Fluids:   This time, I alternated (20 oz each) gatorade and lightly salted water. Took it in at a rate of 40 oz per hour (approx 1.2 L) for the first 2.5 hours.  At that point, I discovered a couple of things: 1) My body will only absorb about .7 L/hour (which is about the figure mentioned as a typical limit) and 2) the excess (some speculation when this limit was mentioned) gets excreted.  No problems with ‘bowling ball gut’ w.r.t. the gatorade. Calories:   Last time I took in almost no calories, the only ones coming from the gatorade.  This is a bad move!  This time around, some calories by way of snickers bar before the run, and then PBJ sandwiches (only 2 though) during the run.  Still not enough calories, I think, but at least this time I finished the entire duration without a hedge. (some suspiscion that the last few minutes might have been there, but I’m writing it off to the difficulty of running _away_ from the car for the last few minutes while having it in sight). Surface/foot twinge:   The first loop around the park, I ran on asphalt with a member of the Prince George’s county Road Runners.  Nice folks, and no real complaints from the foot (I mentioned some in a post on Friday). The next two loops I ran alone on the perimeter trail.  This was welcomed even better by the foot.  Seems strange to me that the uneven, irregular footing would be welcomed better by the feet, but that’s the observation.  It’s also a lot more pleasant being in touching distance of trees rather than cars!   So a very nice experiment.  Next time, which should be in 2 weeks, slightly less fluid and more calories.  And in the mean time, work on practicing and absorbing what Ozzie has contributed regarding feet and attendant muscles/tendons. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response: