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Question:

I sort of found the answer to my follow-up question earlier. Heart rate ranges as calc’d by the Karvonen method in the ‘SERIOUS’ book should be approx lowered by 10bpm for cycling, and 10-15 bpm for swimming. As is for running. This is making life a lot easier jy —                   __o       o     James Yang                   <       <       http://medicine.wustl.edu/~yangj      __/o_     () ()      /    

Response:

 You were forewarned (see my GAPO response).  And now that I’ve seen and read the FAQ, I’ll break the rest of the silence.  I come to r.s.t. by way of rec.running and _Comedy of Errors_.  

Hi Robert: Welcome to rst from a fellow r.r. To the future, and questions: Q: How does the folowing sound:  For now, I expect to be running about 3 days/week, bike 1, swim 1 (?)

I think you’ll find that you need to bike and swim more than once a week. But I’d suggest doing that for a month or so, then work in the extra 2 workouts by reducing their length <at first, doing a shorter one of each, and then working them back up. You don’t have to do true "bricks", but can split the workouts between a.m. and p.m. Or do upper body/lower body doubles. That is, a swim/bike or a swim/run. My week ends up looking like this: M  Long Swim/Short Run T  Bike W Rest T  Bike F Short Swim/Run S Long Run S Long Bike It works for me. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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I find it interesting that swimming, a full body workout, has a lower heart rate than running.  Was that an accurate statement by IronPete?

Yup. The body is horizontal, and the heart doesn’t have to overcome gravity to move the blood around. Or at least that’s the conventional wisdom. Rick "Doesn’t work for me–I’m not horizontal" Denney

Response:

I find it interesting that swimming, a full body workout, has a lower heart rate than running.  Was that an accurate statement by IronPete?

That depends on your previous experience.  I can start a running gate (more of a shuffle) at 114 bpm, with most of my training 145 or less. My swimming starts at 150 on the LOW end, but I’m working on it. Thad "doesn’t everyone swim in running shoes and hat?" Smith

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I find it interesting that swimming, a full body workout, has a lower heart rate than running.  Was that an accurate statement by IronPete?

  It is an accurate statement of my results so far.  To judge by mail and posts, though, this isn’t universally the case, nor will it necessarily remain my case.  I think it is more a statement of the person than the sport.   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and various amateur activities notes and links.

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As I understand this, while there is obviously some variation among individuals, all of us will experience lower max heart rates during swimming than during running or biking.  This makes sense physiologically, as heart rate responds to oxygen needs.  Since swimming is done horizontally, venous return to the heart will be much more effective, making the blood volume ejected per beat of the heart higher and so a person needs fewer beats to supply adequate oxygen.  While running, far more blood pools in the capillaries and veins (and increased pressure in these systems leads to increased lymphatic accumulation as well) and so less total volume is available for the heart to pump, making the heart beat faster to achieve the same results. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it interesting that swimming, a full body workout, has a lower heart rate than running.  Was that an accurate statement by IronPete?   It is an accurate statement of my results so far.  To judge by mail and posts, though, this isn’t universally the case, nor will it necessarily remain my case.  I think it is more a statement of the person than the sport.   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and various amateur activities notes and links.

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I used to have an EXTREMELY high heart rate when swimming. I also had an EXTREMELY inefficient stroke then. It’s slightly more efficient now, and my heart rate reflects that. I only get up into the same heart rate that I do when sprinting on foot when I’m also sprinting in the water. It may also depend on your background. As a lifelong runner I think my body might have figured out how to efficiently get away with running distances that my body is only now coming to terms with in the water. (no scientific evidence to back that up)  I’ve been swimming with regularity for just two years now. When starting I had no idea that swimming could be a gentle, relaxing kind of thing. I was exhausted within 100 yards. I’ve never found running to be a gentle, relaxing thing, but I’ve always enjoyed it. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it interesting that swimming, a full body workout, has a lower heart rate than running.  Was that an accurate statement by IronPete?  It is an accurate statement of my results so far.  To judge by mail and posts, though, this isn’t universally the case, nor will it necessarily remain my case.  I think it is more a statement of the person than the sport. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and various amateur activities notes and links.

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Q: I’ve noticed that in biking, and especially swimming, I don’t get my heart rate up nearly as much as in running. Tha is typical. Different forms of locomotion involve different muscles and different stresses, so you’ll have different heart rates. Your anaerobic threshold on the run will normally be higher than on the bike, with the swimming somewhere in between. You will need to establish your max and anaerobic threshold for each discipline. I’ve noticed this too.  Does this mean the  HR ranges should be adjusted for each discipline?  

In a word:  YES. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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I find it interesting that swimming, a full body workout, has a lower heart rate than running.  Was that an accurate statement by IronPete? Zack "I ask all sorts of questions" Charmoy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Q: I’ve noticed that in biking, and especially swimming, I don’t get my heart rate up nearly as much as in running. Tha is typical. Different forms of locomotion involve different muscles and different stresses, so you’ll have different heart rates. Your anaerobic threshold on the run will normally be higher than on the bike, with the swimming somewhere in between. You will need to establish your max and anaerobic threshold for each discipline. I’ve noticed this too.  Does this mean the  HR ranges should be adjusted for each discipline? In a word:  YES. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie

  zcharmoy.vcf

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I don’t know about the SERIOUS book,  but Joe Friel’s book (which uses LT rather than HR as an indicator of intensity) has you establish a separate LT for each discipline, so it seems consistent to do the same w/ HR. I hope so, because I don’t have any practical way to measure LT, and am substituting HR instead . . .  . . . .  but I could be off my rocker. Ron "Why do cars only pass you when you have to run/ride through a puddle to avoid getting hit?" Gilcreast – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Q: I’ve noticed that in biking, and especially swimming, I don’t get my heart rate up nearly as much as in running. Tha is typical. Different forms of locomotion involve different muscles and different stresses, so you’ll have different heart rates. Your anaerobic threshold on the run will normally be higher than on the bike, with the swimming somewhere in between. You will need to establish your max and anaerobic threshold for each discipline. I’ve noticed this too.  Does this mean the  HR ranges should be adjusted for each discipline?  The Sleamaker book doesn’t appear to do this? ‘SERIOUS’ training theory has my level 4 (UP/INT) intensity at 168-181. No problem with running, but cycling (trainer) I have a hard time getting into the high 160s during my intervals, which have typically been 1′ bursts. Breathless, JY —                  __o       o     James Yang                  <       <   http://medicine.wustl.edu/~yangj     __/o_     () ()      /

Response:

  You were forewarned (see my GAPO response).  And now that I’ve seen and read the FAQ, I’ll break the rest of the silence.  I come to r.s.t. by way of rec.running and _Comedy of Errors_.  The latter influence is because a fellow member of the cast routinely does sprint tri’s and has convinced me that I stand a fair chance of managing one. So now I’m looking towards one of the sprints he likes for next fall.   The running side, I think I have covered, as I can (with due training) fairly easily run 90 minutes (my wild guess of the kind of time I’m looking at for a sprint tri of 400m/15mi/5k).  The biking, I took my first reality check last week, 30 minutes on a stationary bike.  On low level (3 of 12) I managed a fairly stable 90 rpm (about my running cadence) throughout.  I don’t know how that translates to real riding, but am taking the 20+mph average the machine claimed as a good sign. I even jogged home afterwards, and although I certainly understand why the bike/run transition is called a ‘brick’, after a couple hundred meters I felt about the same as if I’d run the previous 30 minutes.   If the biking if vaguely representative of reality, then the swimming is my slow leg (which surprised me as I used to be a fairly decent swimmer mumblemumble years ago).  Last night, as my first night back swimming in a year (and last year being the first time in 15+ that I did more than casual entertainment swimming), I tried something like 5×100+1′, though there turned out to be 5′ between the second and third sets and other irregularities.  Completed and felt ok, aside from the shoulder that’s been annoyed with me for a while (no behind the back throws in my juggling in _Comedy of Errors_ due to this) anyhow. To the future, and questions: Q: How does the folowing sound:   For now, I expect to be running about 3 days/week, bike 1, swim 1 (?) This mostly on the grounds of trying to build back my base for running, which I know how to do.  (Possibly unnecessary as I managed to get a 10k PR in spite of being baseless.  Still, I’ll feel better after a couple consecutive 15 mile weeks are in hand.)  The swimming, to build to 10×100+1′  (100 is maybe a bit long for me to maintaing good form, if I even have it on the first 25, but it does at least get me back to the end that has the pace clock so I can keep the rest periods constant). The biking …? take to 60 minutes at 70% MHR (which is about what I was at for the 30 minute test).  Definitely have to get a bike.   Q: I’ve noticed that in biking, and especially swimming, I don’t get my heart rate up nearly as much as in running.  In the swimming, it is hard to get over 70% of max, while in running it is almost impossible to get that low.  Is this normal for switching to a new sport?  (In biking I could get it up to 80% easily enough, by going to level 6 from 3)  For now, the lower heart rates are something of an advantage since I have a hard time running with a low heart rate and hope to get some LSD-effective training from the biking and swimming. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and various amateur activities notes and links.

Response:

Q: I’ve noticed that in biking, and especially swimming, I don’t get my heart rate up nearly as much as in running.

Tha is typical. Different forms of locomotion involve different muscles and different stresses, so you’ll have different heart rates. Your anaerobic threshold on the run will normally be higher than on the bike, with the swimming somewhere in between. You will need to establish your max and anaerobic threshold for each discipline.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

Q: I’ve noticed that in biking, and especially swimming, I don’t get my heart rate up nearly as much as in running. Tha is typical. Different forms of locomotion involve different muscles and different stresses, so you’ll have different heart rates. Your anaerobic threshold on the run will normally be higher than on the bike, with the swimming somewhere in between. You will need to establish your max and anaerobic threshold for each discipline.

I’ve noticed this too.  Does this mean the  HR ranges should be adjusted for each discipline?  The Sleamaker book doesn’t appear to do this? ‘SERIOUS’ training theory has my level 4 (UP/INT) intensity at 168-181. No problem with running, but cycling (trainer) I have a hard time getting into the high 160s during my intervals, which have typically been 1′ bursts.   Breathless, JY —                   __o       o     James Yang                   <       <       http://medicine.wustl.edu/~yangj      __/o_     () ()      /    

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