How Roger will train for his 50k at 50.

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Question:

You may want to add a few more intervals to your track sessions or increase them to 800s instead of 400s.

<snipped, but nicely explained. You put many athletic ‘professionals’ to shame I’m aware of the science behind this option and the 15/30 mins ’speed work window’ you mentioned, and I believe your conclusions to be sound. Were I a 25 y-old I would have no hesitation in adopting your recommendations. However, as a 49 y-old using IGF in his training, I consider it prudent to adopt a familiar speedwork programme. I know how I *should* feel on this training and I want to be able to compare it with how I *am* feeling. Any significant negative differences would be a cause for concern. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as overdressing to acclimate to high heat, this has shown to work, however, at the cost of some quality of training. Even small changes in core body temperature without necessarily being dehydrated can affect performance. Fitness will be your number one defense for the heat with acclimating running a close second. To maintain your quality training dress accordingly and use the 3 weeks prior to adapt to the heat since you will be in the race environment. This is more than enough time to adjust as studies have shown the body to adjust in less than a week with training intensities as low as 50% VO2 max. You certainly will still be training harder than that which will accelerate the process, meanwhile you are hopefully bringing more to the plate at this point since you didn’t try to force adaptation early in your training potentially impacting performance for that day and possibly subsequent work outs. I can attest to this in my trips to Israel in the summer as I ran the first week I felt like total crap. By the middle of the second week my run times closely mirrored those here in the states.

This is all new to me. I sincerely hope you’re right ’cause I can see no other option available to me short of moving to the States for spring. Sorry, got a little long winded, I enjoy the topic!

Never apologise for being useful. It only makes folk wonder whether you know what you’re talking about Good Luck, Keith

Thanks. I may need it.

Response:

As you are well aware, a synthetic growth hormone substance will not, in itself, make me run faster or further. It will, however, permit me to sustain a training regime that would likely ‘bust my balls’ if I attempted it without assistance. I will hurt as much, I will suffer as much, I will want to quit as much, but – chemical willing – my body won’t fail me although my mind may. This substance, and others on the IOC banned list, provide the opportunity for those with the dedication, but lacking the robust genes,

Gee doc name the gene that you lack other than balls such that you need an illegal competitive edge? Your logic is simple – self-serving gratification and screw the rules. On the hyprocracy scale, and I will not be cruel to compare it with the Hippocratic Oath, you are in the same realm as steroids geeks and Tanya Harding’s husband. to complete at an event to a standard and intensity they choose. I’m open about my choice on this matter. The race organiser will be informed prior to the race and, if they refuse my entry, so be it.

I’m sure you don’t care since you are being so honest with your position, but there is such irony with what you plan to try. Those of us that drift off into the ultra world do so to get away from this exact mindset to include illegal drugs. With rare exceptions prizes are few and often consist of belt buckles or painted rocks. We usually have to contend with a rare person that advertently or inadvertently cuts the course to seek a leg up. Please do be honest with the race director up front. Not to sound mean spirited but I hope he says thanks for your honesty but you ain’t running my race! Call us purists or anal but I doubt any RD will let you in and rightfully so. I do this primarily as a challenge to myself Anders, not for the applause from the gallery.

Listen for the one hand clapping. Maybe we should ask, since you love to yank everyone’s chain, are you trolling? — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

I’ll skip the dumb answers. – What’s with the concern about weight? If you are stepping up your training and don’t walk around with an oat bag over your face, your weight should come down slow and healthy. I run *very* well at 56 kg.

So why won’t you lose it naturally by burning off more calories with a stepped up schedule? We into some compulsive behavior? – I don’t see many hills other that the 300m in a 10k loop. Quite possibly you have spotted a weakness. Have I made a big mistake here?

Not a mistake but power is what will get you hold pace for the entire race. Since you think you want to run with the big dogs, you had best find some nice long step hills to run once in a while. The *quality* was understated. I don’t like to boast. As regards overtraining, why do you think I monitor bloods weekly?

Because you have cheap access. Like I said, this pace was a touch understated. I run them a little quicker

And I should believe you? Goes back to what your pace goal is for the race. Whatever it has to be to stay near the leaders. I aim to be capable of a very quick final 5k.

Don’t we all. It’s all about pace and the longer the race the more important pacing becomes. If you go out too fast you will discover that turning to shit is geometric. if you go withthe big boys just a seconds per mile too fast will get you a body bag. Do you still plan to do these with no "no-run" hydration? Don’t be silly. I was trolling.

Good! Now I can conclude you’re only a part time dork and can’t trust "most" of your answers. I’m placing my trust in IGF – 1 to do that.

I’d go for eye of newt or roasted paramecium cilia. You’re correct, I plan to race the 50k, not wander around gazing at the scenery. 50k isn’t far. I did four 60ks on consecutive weekends last year to accompany a friend training for a mountain bike race. I can’t say I felt like a spring bunny afterwards, but they don’t kill you.

I shows you have or at least had a good base which suggests you will fair well. As well, as your inflated ego will allow. I only plan to do this one 50k race, never anything longer, and probably never race again.

It seems your ego needs more stroking than to just run for health. I wonder if you’re sane enough to determine dehydration. I already know my values for fluid loss each hour at 6:30 mile pace at 25 C. I’ll extrapolate for the race pace/temperature.

Do you think it’s linear? Thanks for your observations and your time Douglas. It’s nice to bounce ideas off someone. You appear to know what you’re talking about when you stick to ultras.

Why thank you. I have yet to conclude that you do anything well other than trolling, or said differently, your credibility is suspect but hopefully others who have interest in longer runs may get some benefit from the dialog even if your side is smoky. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

The smart money is riding on the mop-tops at the moment. "The West" hasn’t quite grasped the true nature of the conflict yet, have

we? No. And "the West" will have to go over my dead body before it turns my sons into cannon-fodder for an unjust and avoidable war with the Islamic world.

Response:

What’s IGF – 1?

A banned substance:-) IGF stands for "Insulinlike Growth factor". It might seem a huge leap for an ordinary man from saying a firm "No!" to caps or gels, but we are dealing with a very singular guy here:-) Anders

Response:

Not wishing to decry the title "singular man", which I wear with pride, there isn’t really a large leap here Anders. Either you train yourself to complete an event without aid or you don’t. As many have noted here, running in excess of 20k – 25k without some form of aid – usually water – is probably knocking on the doors of the asylum. If we want to *run* further we need assistance. The IOC and governing bodies have decided, in their wisdom, that certain substances are permitted whilst others are banned. That’s fine, I just happen to disagree with their selection. Now I could write to them and ask them to justify their selection criteria, and we could get into a lengthy argument about growth-hormone-like substances (banned) vis-a-vis asthma medications (permitted). It would go round and round in circles and, at the end of the day, it wouldn’t matter a toss what I thought. So I save myself the time and effort and use my medical knowledge to select a substance that I believe to be safe and efficacious within certain defined limits. As you are well aware, a synthetic growth hormone substance will not, in itself, make me run faster or further. It will, however, permit me to sustain a training regime that would likely ‘bust my balls’ if I attempted it without assistance. I will hurt as much, I will suffer as much, I will want to quit as much, but – chemical willing – my body won’t fail me although my mind may. This substance, and others on the IOC banned list, provide the opportunity for those with the dedication, but lacking the robust genes, to complete at an event to a standard and intensity they choose. I’m open about my choice on this matter. The race organiser will be informed prior to the race and, if they refuse my entry, so be it. I do this primarily as a challenge to myself Anders, not for the applause from the gallery.

Response:

Not to underthink the thing too much, but 50K isn’t so much more than a marathon, so why train too differently?

Because, Ms. she-who-so-secure-in her-own-life-she-can’t-spare-any-love-for-a-lonely-troll, I *like* running. Sure, I could get by on less mileage, just like I could get by on less trolling. But when you enjoy something, why deny yourself? One day I’ll get old and die, then there will be no more running and no more trolling. But at least I’ll die thinking "I wonder if I was too much?" rather than "Why didn’t I do more?".

Response:

Can you say "crash and burn?"

Can you say "butt out, idiot?" I could do an Ironman faster than you off a slightly modified version of this training. Hell, I could do an Ironman faster than you off six weeks sitting on my ass eating ice-cream.

Response:

Couple of questions:

As long as they aren’t about my (failed) relationship with Jenn. What’s IGF – 1?

Google under "IGF – 1" It’s cutting edge speed and endurance m’boy. Very popular with the French. And largely undetectable despite some claims to the contrary. Quite cheap too, and a lot less dangerous than some other stuff in widespread use. Why 400s on the track (as opposed to 200s for example)?

400s produce lactic acid, lots of it. Try them. Your body can, to a certain extent, develop a tolerance to lactic acid by repeated exposure. Well, not a tolerance exactly, it learns to disperse it faster. Whilst you may not consider this a useful attribute in a long distance runner, lactic acid does slowly build up over time and anything that prepares your body to deal with this issue is a ‘good thing’. 400s give the little lungs a nice surprise too. Improves breathing, strengthens the old diaphragm, and they make you concentrate on posture, stride length and pacing. All good disciplines for any runner. Wouldn’t two ~30k runs on consecutive days reduce injury risk whilst still giving you the endurance benefit of a single 50k?

Wish that were true. Reduce injury risk certainly (hence the need for chemical ‘assistance’ to train at this level at my age) but current thinking is ‘there’s no substitute for time on your feet’.

Response:

The smart money is riding on the mop-tops at the moment.

"The West" hasn’t quite grasped the true nature of the conflict yet, have we? You have hit on a very real concern, whether you were serious or merely joshing. that part about your doing 35k to 40k without intermediate water … ‘Twas a troll.

Just checking to see if anybody actually reads this stuff before replying? If so, I trust you find the result reassuring.

Response:

Not to underthink the thing too much, but 50K isn’t so much more than a marathon, so why train too differently? Maybe plan harder for 50 miles and up, but you’re only doing an extra 4-5 miles. My tuppence: Find a good marathon plan ( a real one ), combining varieties of speed with the weekly long run, then after 20 weeks or so race 50K. Keep in mind of course that anything longer than a marathon is a total freak-show. Jennifer

Response:

Wouldn’t two ~30k runs on consecutive days reduce injury risk whilst still giving you the endurance benefit of a single 50k?

To which Roger replied: Wish that were true. Reduce injury risk certainly (hence the need for chemical ‘assistance’ to train at this level at my age) but current thinking is ‘there’s no substitute for time on your feet’.

Have to agree with Roger here, though the last thing you need is my validation in this endeavor. Running a trail 50k is certainly difficult, but not nearly as "thrash-inducing" as the distance would be on roads…so I’m not really sure why there should be any disagreement with this part of the regime at all. Running the distance once per week should, all things being equal, not be problematic at all. The overall training plan is certainly aggressive to say the least, but given the goal seems to be not out of whack. Mike C

Response:

Roger, Sounds like a tough event, I can offer you some feedback for what it is worth: You may want to add a few more intervals to your track sessions or increase them to 800’s instead of 400’s. Why more? Although 10 X 400m is adequate to produce a training effect, some research has shown that total interval time, that is the speed portion, over 15 minutes has a greater effect on fitness. That is to say that once the threshold is met for adaptation (as little as 5-10min.), it remains relatively linear and then has an inflection at around 15 minutes. Of note, there appears to be a ceiling effect at around 30 minutes, not to mention over training and injury. Therefore, adding a few more 400’s would put you in the “magic” window. Why 800’s? The length of time spent in the speed portion of the interval, in your case 85 seconds or less, will factor into what energy systems that are being stressed, hence trained. As you probably know, it takes some time for the body to reach a “steady state” as far as balancing out energy sources. To oversimplify, the initial time in the interval is an adjustment period to the sudden increase in energy demand with a greater bias towards anaerobic metabolism, thus decreasing the training time in the desired metabolic state with a bias on aerobic metabolism slightly above threshold since you are training for a long distance event. Of course the intensity of the interval and your individual fitness play a role here as well. The 800 will give you more time at the metabolic intensity you seek to train (pushing up your ventilatory threshold); yet you will still reap the benefits of improved economy and increased VO2 of the 400. Judging from your times we seem fairly well matched, I have had good success with running 10-12 X 800’s at 2:50 – 3: 00 minutes a clip with a 400 m jog in between for marathon prep. This is similar to the Yasso work out. Obviously a build up is in order here, so starting with some 400’s might be a good idea. Shoot to peak your speed work 2 weeks out from the event and your endurance (highest mileage week) about 5 weeks out. Although not mutually exclusive, in general speed work has shown to be more protective of endurance gains than vice versa. Your fartlek training may need to be adjusted if you decide on 800’s but that is the beauty of them as you can adjust this workout accordingly to match your current recovery. A possible way to incorporate another higher intensity workout is to throw in some goal “race pace” in the second half of every other long run. This intensity often gets lost in the shuffle and can feel quite foreign come race day. You can than skip the fartlek session during the week you cover it in your long run. Some diversity in your long runs in both duration and intensity can be both adventitious from a training perspective and from an overuse perspective as you are changing the demands and loading parameters on the musculoskeletal system. This fact is often lost on runners that we are training several systems that have different rates and ability to respond to repetitive stress, especially at a consistent intensity. The musculoskeletal system lags behind the nervous and cardiopulmonary systems in its adaptation, which often leads to the common running ailments that are littered all over this board. Your thought of cross training with swimming is a good idea in my book as you give those weight bearing bones and muscles a relative day off, while stressing your cardiopulmonary system in another fashion as well. As far as overdressing to acclimate to high heat, this has shown to work, however, at the cost of some quality of training. Even small changes in core body temperature without necessarily being dehydrated can affect performance. Fitness will be your number one defense for the heat with acclimating running a close second. To maintain your quality training dress accordingly and use the 3 weeks prior to adapt to the heat since you will be in the race environment. This is more than enough time to adjust as studies have shown the body to adjust in less than a week with training intensities as low as 50% VO2 max. You certainly will still be training harder than that which will accelerate the process, meanwhile you are hopefully bringing more to the plate at this point since you didn’t try to “force adaptation” early in your training potentially impacting performance for that day and possibly subsequent work outs. I can attest to this in my trips to Israel in the summer as I ran the first week I felt like total crap. By the middle of the second week my run times closely mirrored those here in the states. Sorry, got a little long winded, I enjoy the topic! Good Luck, Keith

Response:

How do you get "asking for help" from "offer…..for your delectation and

debate"? You said as much in your earlier thread. You asked for suggestions, remember? Seriously, I do admire your apparent dedication to the sport, as indicated by your training plans, etc., but isn’t there some merit in the criticism that you perhaps too often piss on others’ inquiries and yet seem to expect respectful replies in return? Come on now, I’m just "Yanking" your chain here to make a teensy weensy little point. Only valuable colonies"???? I could give you an economic history lesson on the gross annual product of 18th Century America vs 18th Century India

Given the choice of India or The United States of America NOW and their relative economic, political, and military value the comparison is off the scale. King George III had so little foresight that he actually valued the West Indies over America! the point was that even a tiny modicum of IQ points should have told England to hang onto the continent rather than whatever other relatively insignificant colonies it may have had, because of what it was obvious America was becoming!. Goodness me, we’re going to have to hand out awards to any American who can go one whole year on the ‘net without mentioning WWI or WWII.

Ummm… you skipped all that other inconvenient stuff about the "American Rebellion" and the War of 1812, didn’t you? But don’t worry, we’ll go down the drain with you.

Or to the top with us….riding on our shoulders like a little boy getting a lift from his uncle… No, I’d have to admit you were a fine and courageous people back then. What went wrong?

English socialism spread to here? But back to running…. I do hope that part about your doing 35k to 40k without intermediate water was an error, oversight, or a joke. We might otherwise lose one of our most…ummm. "reliable" contributors to the newsgroup. The only way i would consider that kind of privation during training is perhaps if I was going to do the Death Valley/Badwater thing! – KLM

Response:

but isn’t there some merit in the criticism that you perhaps too often piss on others’ inquiries and yet seem to expect respectful replies in return?

But that’s me, that’s how I am, how can I help it? I’m an arrogant, self-centred bastard that just wants to be loved, cherished and told he’s cute. Where’s the harm in that? Given the choice of India or The United States of America NOW and their relative economic, political, and military value the comparison is off the scale. King George III had so little foresight that he actually valued the West Indies over America!

He made a wise choice there. At least the Windies play cricket, rather than that girlie game with a big stick that you chaps seem to consider a sport. the point was that even a tiny modicum of IQ points should have told England to hang onto the continent rather than whatever other relatively insignificant colonies it may have had, because of what it was obvious America was becoming!.

You haven’t got where you’re going yet. Let’s wait and see how America pans out. George may have made a smart move after all. Ummm… you skipped all that other inconvenient stuff about the "American Rebellion" and the War of 1812, didn’t you?

Of course. When someone makes a valid point that’s hard to refute, ignore it. It’s what Americans do all the time. Or to the top with us….riding on our shoulders like a little boy getting a lift from his uncle…

Like I said, let’s see how it pans out. The smart money is riding on the mop-tops at the moment. English socialism spread to here?

I guess you could be right! But back to running…. I do hope that part about your doing 35k to 40k without intermediate water was an error, oversight, or a joke.

‘Twas a troll. Douglas and Timothy bit good and hard, and it rolled on from there….. We might otherwise lose one of our most…ummm. "reliable" contributors to the newsgroup.

You’ll lose me to boredom, not to running. Like Jenn seemed to acknowledge, there’s only so much you can say about rec.running before it becomes too tedious and repetitive.

Response:

Couple of questions: What’s IGF – 1? Why 400s on the track (as opposed to 200s for example)? Wouldn’t two ~30k runs on consecutive days reduce injury risk whilst still giving you the endurance benefit of a single 50k?

Response:

let me offer my training plan for your delectation and debate: Hmmm. The effrontery of it all, asking for the help of this predonimantly American newsgroup….

How do you get "asking for help" from "offer…..for your delectation and debate"? Back to second grade study of the English language for you TC. By the way, it was the French revolution that had the rallying cry of "Liberte’, egalite’, fraternite’," not the one in which the Sons of Liberty kicked King George’s sorry ass out of his only valuable colonies.

"Only valuable colonies"???? I could give you an economic history lesson on the gross annual product of 18th Century America vs 18th Century India but, like I said, go back to the second grade and ask your teacher. If you’d been paying attention and asking relevant questions then you wouldn’t be making an ass of yourself now. Those same "failed" and "pointless" American Sons of Liberty also kicked Gen. Gage’s butt at Lexington/Concord, utterly trashed "Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne" at Saratoga, and rendered "Earl" Cornwallis a pathetic laughing stock for all of history at Yorktown. And let’s not forget Britain’s sorry humiliation at the battle of New Orleans in 1814. You trace your roots to that ilk? I’d rather trace mine to the folks who turned around and saved Britain’s bacon in 1917-1919 and again in 1941-1945.

Goodness me, we’re going to have to hand out awards to any American who can go one whole year on the ‘net without mentioning WWI or WWII. ‘S funny, ’cause when I think of your fine armed forces my mind flits back to the pasting you got in Vietnam, to the sheer incompetence your leaders demonstrated (and continue to demonstrate) as regards Iran, Iraq, Cuba, world hates you? Because you invented Coke? But don’t worry, we’ll go down the drain with you. We’re loyal. We just moan a lot. Your arrogance evidently surpasses that of Lord North when he assessed Americans as a lot of cowardly farmers who would run from the sight of British redcoats.

No, I’d have to admit you were a fine and courageous people back then. What went wrong?

Response:

Hmmm, yessss, but then I’m aiming to *race* this thing, not simply to be on the same course as the racers.

Response:

let me offer my training plan for your delectation and debate:

Can you really be the same "Roger Hunter" who posted less than a week ago that it’s time Americans "took those running shoes out into the back yard, dug a wee hole, and placed them in the ground alongside the graves of those other failed American dreams (You do remember, don’t you? The dreams of equality, freedom and justice for all?)" Hmmm. The effrontery of it all, asking for the help of this predonimantly American newsgroup…. By the way, it was the French revolution that had the rallying cry of "Liberte’, egalite’, fraternite’," not the one in which the Sons of Liberty kicked King George’s sorry ass out of his only valuable colonies. Those same "failed" and "pointless" American Sons of Liberty also kicked Gen. Gage’s butt at Lexington/Concord, utterly trashed "Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne" at Saratoga, and rendered "Earl" Cornwallis a pathetic laughing stock for all of history at Yorktown. And let’s not forget Britain’s sorry humiliation at the battle of New Orleans in 1814. You trace your roots to that ilk? I’d rather trace mine to the folks who turned around and saved Britain’s bacon in 1917-1919 and again in 1941-1945. Your arrogance evidently surpasses that of Lord North when he assessed Americans as a lot of cowardly farmers who would run from the sight of British redcoats (inasmuch as YOU have the benefit of hindsight).

Response:

I see you are from the over achievers school of training. You plan to do a 50k run per week and then race a 50k – interesting. At what distance would your training runs be shorter then the race?

Sounds like Indy’s old plan for his marathon PR. Can you say "crash and burn?" Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Operating Traffic Lights Crossbucks Special Effects Lighting http://www.ironpeng.com/ipe

Response:

here’s my 50k training plan: run as long as i can manage on trails every other weekend. run a little when i can during the week. lift weights twice a week. drink lots of water all the time, eat probably too much. go run the race. seems to work for me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As the advanced running knowledge base that is rec.running has failed to produce one inkling of what would constitute a reasonable training schedule for a 50k desert run in the merry month of May, let me offer my training plan for your delectation and debate: Current base: Run 1 x 35k-40k off road trail run (no on-run hydration, but it is temperate in Scotland) 1 x track session, 10 x 400 85 sec. 1 x 1.5 hours fartlek 2 x road runs of around 1.5 hours 1 x Saturday run with the kids on their bikes Swim 3 x 1000m while youngest son trains. Cycle 3 x one hour off-road cycles, chasing rabbits. Drugs and diet. No drugs, no diet. At 61kg I’m 5kg over my racing weight. Dec – February per week: Run 1 x 40k off-road trail run, pace around 8 min/mile around a 10k loop with 300m ascent/decent. 1 x track session 10 x 400m in 85 sec, 400 jog recovery in 2 mins. 800m warm up and cool down. 2 x easy road runs, steady pace around 7 – 7.25 min/miles, around 1hour. 1 x fartlek, lasting two hours, around local golf course. 1 x run with kids on bikes, at speed and duration they choose. Swim 3 x 1000m swim sets, performed in evening after long run, track run and fartlek run. Cycle 2 x 33 mile loops for fun around rolling hills. Time unimportant. Diet and drugs IGF – 1 taken before bed after 4 hour fast. Mustn’t detail exact drug and dietary protocol, but get weight to 56 kg by end Jan. March – April per week: Run 1 x 50k off road trail run, attempt to maintain or reduce 8 min/mile pace. 2 x track sessions, distance/recovery as before. 2 x easy road runs, as before. 1 x kids run, as before Swim 3 x 1000m sets, as before Cycle 1 x 52 mile hilly. Time unimportant but work hard up hills. Diet and drugs IGF – 1 reduced by half. Watch for weight increase. May In the race environment for three weeks before the race: half all distances, maintain speeds, take no drugs, ensure weight remains at 56 kg. In addition: Have local labs monitor bloods on weekly basis. Determine hydration protocol by trial and error on long runs. Schedule appointment with sports massage therapist once per week. Perform all runs, except track, overdressed in attempt to encourage adaptation to heat. Comprehensive medical checkup every four weeks. Try liquid carbo’s on 50k training runs to see if they work. Avoid ‘flu. Check into rec.running for advice.

Response:

– Since you want to play third grade hide-n-seek with the race name, it least describe the temps and terrain, specifically elevation gain and loss.

No. – You pay a lot of attention to speed. Do you have an anticipated time goal?

I have an anticipated place goal. Single digit. I may fail, I may not. – What’s with the concern about weight? If you are stepping up your training and don’t walk around with an oat bag over your face, your weight should come down slow and healthy.

I run *very* well at 56 kg. – I don’t see many hills other that the 300m in a 10k loop.

Quite possibly you have spotted a weakness. Have I made a big mistake here? – I see lots of quality per week so I would monitor those small signs of over training.

The *quality* was understated. I don’t like to boast. As regards overtraining, why do you think I monitor bloods weekly? 1 x 40k off-road trail run, pace around 8 min/mile around a 10k loop with 300m ascent/decent. One a week may slow your recover. You may want to consider every other week or two on and one off. I can do about 4 weeks in a row an then need to back down. It’s possible your youth will carry you but I’ll bet my years at this suggest you will be pushing too hard.

I find my regular 35k (sometimes 45k in the summer) quite comfortable. Don’t know why but I find them easier than a sub-40 10k. I hate 10ks. Love 5ks though. I think 8 minute pace is a bit fast based on your 85 sec 400’s.

Like I said, this pace was a touch understated. I run them a little quicker Goes back to what your pace goal is for the race.

Whatever it has to be to stay near the leaders. I aim to be capable of a very quick final 5k. Do you still plan to do these with no "no-run" hydration?

Don’t be silly. I was trolling. I would suggest, temperate conditions or not, to practice what you plan do on race day by drinking to include electrolytes and eating.

Will do. In addition keeping your fluids up will aid in faster recovery which you will need to maximize considering your total weekly effort.

I’m placing my trust in IGF – 1 to do that. 3 x 1000m swim sets, performed in evening after long run, track run and fartlek run. Slow swim I hope. You are doing these swims because????

My youngest son has a hip disease. I swim to encourage him. And I plan to continue. I see you are from the over achievers school of training. You plan to do a 50k run per week and then race a 50k – interesting.

You’re correct, I plan to race the 50k, not wander around gazing at the scenery. 50k isn’t far. I did four 60ks on consecutive weekends last year to accompany a friend training for a mountain bike race. I can’t say I felt like a spring bunny afterwards, but they don’t kill you. At what distance would your training runs be shorter then the race?

I only plan to do this one 50k race, never anything longer, and probably never race again. Personally and others may disagree but biking is great Xtraining for general conditioning but I only found it helpful on race day when hiking steep uphills. Not specific enough for running.

Gives me something to do. Better than playing on this damn computer. I wonder if you’re sane enough to determine dehydration.

I already know my values for fluid loss each hour at 6:30 mile pace at 25 C. I’ll extrapolate for the race pace/temperature. Thanks for your observations and your time Douglas. It’s nice to bounce ideas off someone. You appear to know what you’re talking about when you stick to ultras. Roger.

Response:

And they said he was a slow learner. General comments: – Since you want to play third grade hide-n-seek with the race name, it least describe the temps and terrain, specifically elevation gain and loss. – You pay a lot of attention to speed. Do you have an anticipated time goal? – What’s with the concern about weight? If you are stepping up your training and don’t walk around with an oat bag over your face, your weight should come down slow and healthy. – I don’t see many hills other that the 300m in a 10k loop. – I see lots of quality per week so I would monitor those small signs of over training. Dec – February per week: Run 1 x 40k off-road trail run, pace around 8 min/mile around a 10k loop with 300m ascent/decent.

One a week may slow your recover. You may want to consider every other week or two on and one off. I can do about 4 weeks in a row an then need to back down. It’s possible your youth will carry you but I’ll bet my years at this suggest you will be pushing too hard. I think 8 minute pace is a bit fast based on your 85 sec 400’s. Goes back to what your pace goal is for the race. Do you still plan to do these with no "no-run" hydration? I would suggest, temperate conditions or not, to practice what you plan do on race day by drinking to include electrolytes and eating. In addition keeping your fluids up will aid in faster recovery which you will need to maximize considering your total weekly effort. 3 x 1000m swim sets, performed in evening after long run, track run and fartlek run.

Slow swim I hope. You are doing these swims because???? March – April per week: Run 1 x 50k off road trail run, attempt to maintain or reduce 8 min/mile pace.

I see you are from the over achievers school of training. You plan to do a 50k run per week and then race a 50k – interesting. At what distance would your training runs be shorter then the race? 2 x track sessions, distance/recovery as before. 2 x easy road runs, as before. 1 x kids run, as before Swim 3 x 1000m sets, as before Cycle 1 x 52 mile hilly. Time unimportant but work hard up hills.

Personally and others may disagree but biking is great Xtraining for general conditioning but I only found it helpful on race day when hiking steep uphills. Not specific enough for running. In addition: Have local labs monitor bloods on weekly basis. Determine hydration protocol by trial and error on long runs.

I wonder if you’re sane enough to determine dehydration. Once you discover dehydration and start taking on water, draw you blood immediately after you run to see how close you come to hyponatremia. See http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/salt.html and http://www.spinalhealth.net/hyponatremia.html and http://www.fred.net/ultrunr/hyponatremia.html has some basic data. Schedule appointment with sports massage therapist once per week.

An obvious large wallet. Perform all runs, except track, overdressed in attempt to encourage adaptation to heat.

Then be even more cognizant of fluids and salt. Comprehensive medical checkup every four weeks.

Does this include a psychological profile? Try liquid carbo’s on 50k training runs to see if they work.

There are lots of GU like stuff out there but one that is love/hate from a flavor aspect but does well on the ultra circuit, is called CLIP. See http://www.ultrafit-endurance.com./succlipspor.html for contents. By the way, this does not contain salt. – Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

1 x 35k-40k off road trail run (no on-run hydration, but it is temperate in Scotland)

Really, I wouldn’t run 40K without hydration even here where it’s below freezing.

Response:

As the advanced running knowledge base that is rec.running has failed to produce one inkling of what would constitute a reasonable training schedule for a 50k desert run in the merry month of May, let me offer my training plan for your delectation and debate: Current base: Run 1 x 35k-40k off road trail run (no on-run hydration, but it is temperate in Scotland) 1 x track session, 10 x 400 85 sec. 1 x 1.5 hours fartlek 2 x road runs of around 1.5 hours 1 x Saturday run with the kids on their bikes Swim 3 x 1000m while youngest son trains. Cycle 3 x one hour off-road cycles, chasing rabbits. Drugs and diet. No drugs, no diet. At 61kg I’m 5kg over my racing weight. Dec – February per week: Run 1 x 40k off-road trail run, pace around 8 min/mile around a 10k loop with 300m ascent/decent. 1 x track session 10 x 400m in 85 sec, 400 jog recovery in 2 mins. 800m warm up and cool down. 2 x easy road runs, steady pace around 7 – 7.25 min/miles, around 1hour. 1 x fartlek, lasting two hours, around local golf course. 1 x run with kids on bikes, at speed and duration they choose. Swim 3 x 1000m swim sets, performed in evening after long run, track run and fartlek run. Cycle 2 x 33 mile loops for fun around rolling hills. Time unimportant. Diet and drugs IGF – 1 taken before bed after 4 hour fast. Mustn’t detail exact drug and dietary protocol, but get weight to 56 kg by end Jan. March – April per week: Run 1 x 50k off road trail run, attempt to maintain or reduce 8 min/mile pace. 2 x track sessions, distance/recovery as before. 2 x easy road runs, as before. 1 x kids run, as before Swim 3 x 1000m sets, as before Cycle 1 x 52 mile hilly. Time unimportant but work hard up hills. Diet and drugs IGF – 1 reduced by half. Watch for weight increase. May In the race environment for three weeks before the race: half all distances, maintain speeds, take no drugs, ensure weight remains at 56 kg. In addition: Have local labs monitor bloods on weekly basis. Determine hydration protocol by trial and error on long runs. Schedule appointment with sports massage therapist once per week. Perform all runs, except track, overdressed in attempt to encourage adaptation to heat. Comprehensive medical checkup every four weeks. Try liquid carbo’s on 50k training runs to see if they work. Avoid ‘flu. Check into rec.running for advice.

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