Run Run Away

Question:

Thanks for all the replies.  I see the wisdom in staying away from LT most of the time, but am still trying to figure out just where that line is.  

Why not just use conversational effort for your easy runs? Based on my interpretations of readings, it seems like breathing and LT are more directly connected than hr and LT. When your conversation gets choppy and just a couple words at a time, you’re probably in LT zone. When you’re gasping, you’re above it. I saw a quote from Lance Armstrong today on the subject, and he said that he watches the HR but in the end listens to his legs.  

Legs work, as does breathing and other body signs. Heart rate is a convenient way of quantifying things and logging data. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

OH i read that LT ( wish i could find it) is right about 75%-78% of maxHR.

I thought LT was closer to about 85-90% max hr (80-85% using Karvonen). I train at 75-78 on easy days

That makes sense. Does that suggest that 75-78% in 1st line (for LT) may have been a typo?? Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

point of easy days? i train with a HM and easy days are for your tendons / lig / joints to ‘catch up’ with your muscles on your hard days. I call easy days active resting. It is in rest that your heal not while your run your butt off. Your body needs those day to recover . It helps also in not overtraining.   I did train in Glorietta MN and let me tell you that was H*ll . i agree that walking is boring . I thought so untill i started ultras now part of my trains goes into Walking if you can believe that. hope this helps OH i read that LT ( wish i could find it) is right about 75%-78% of maxHR. I train at 75-78 on easy days plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gang, Over the past 10 years or so I’ve been in a happy rut of training at about the same effort most of the time and racing at about the same pace.  I finally have a bit more time to train, so I’m attempting to be more scientific about adding miles and maybe finally getting one of those coveted Peach Tree mugs and possibly a Boston qualifier. My previous base pattern was to run about 2-4 times per week, once or twice for 2.5 miles and the remainder 5-7 miles.  My estimated max heart rate is between 190 and 195 based on self-performed max effort tests.  I’m in my mid 40s.  When preparing for a 10K I’ll up the mileage and do intervals once a week or so.  Preparing for a marathon I’ll do more miles (rarely more than 25/week) and do long runs ramping up to 22 miles or so 3 weeks before.  I’m a huge believer in tapering, preferring to run hard one week before a race and then not all until the race.  At my low mileage, time off seems to help a lot before a big event.  I partially make up for the insufficient mileage by having enough sense to cut back during a race if my goal becomes unreasonable and just be happy to finish.  My 10K PB is 43:53 and for the marathon it’s just under 4:00 (8:58 pace).  My current focus is to get my marathon pace down to 8:00 for a Boston qualifier, if not by this December then by next year. Up to now, I figured that since I had so many days off it made sense to do all my runs fairly hard.  Now that I’m running more often I’ve been keeping the easy days (all but 2/week) to 2.5 or 5 miles or so at approx 145 BPM, or about 9:00 pace. It seemed almost silly to go this slowly at first, but it certainly is easier on my joints and is pleasant enough, so I have been doing this for a few months.  Now that it’s getting hot, however, it’s about impossible to keep running at this low HR.  I decided to see what an easy pace, equivanent to 145BPM and about 9:00 per mile at 65 degrees, translates to at 80 degrees.  The answer seems to be 150 ramping up to 160 by the end.  This is slightly slower than my cool weather pace but feels like about the same effort, both during and after the run. Now I understand that heat puts extra burden on the cardio system and leads to increased heart rate for similar effort.  I am also sure that heat doesn’t raise the max heart rate, it just imposes a sort of overhead burden. My question is: what is an approprate training level for easy days?  This leads to the question: what is the point of easy days?  My guess is that easy days let you get some miles on the legs (do SOME new muscle damage), while simultaneously allowing damage from recent hard training to heal without undully stressing the other systems.  On the other hand, maybe considerations such as lactate threshold are well estimated based solely on heart rate, and easy days really should be run at this low heart rate even if it forces walking.  Bor-ing! Clearly temperature changes the relative load on the various systems (leg muscles, cardio, lungs).  It reminds me of the little running I did in the mountains of New Mexico: I ran as hard as my lungs would let me, but my legs has a lactic acid jones on all week. My inclination is to let my heart rate creep up on the easy days, letting the days be just as easy on my legs but maybe into the next HR zone. I’m interested in opinions on the matter. Ideas?     Dave

Response:

  I think you’ve done more reading about it than me, and I think your assumptions are correct.  

Actually, it’s been more a matter of trying to figure out appropriate training when most training is during Alaska winter (running on most kinds of snow is different than running on dirt) and race opportunities are usually in May before field season kicks into full swing. Standard training schedules didn’t work that well for me. It’s very rare that I’ve been able to do a simple running race (exactly one to date after 3 yrs, and the last 2 were cancelled) and there’s usually been a bike component to about half my races so far (duathlon, winter tri). Other events have been snowshoe running and orienteering. Also, running uses the hamstrings much more than cycling, and cycling uses the quads – in my exeperience they are not as similar as you might think.

True, but uphill and downhill running (typically 10-30% slopes on my trails) also emphasize different muscles than flat running, although LT may not be a big issue with downhill running as it is with uphill. The other thing is if your goal is running, cycling too much can easily overdevelop your legs and that will slow you down.  

I’ve used it mostly as rehab (achilles) in the past, and there’s a fun trail duathlon early in the season that I’ve been able to do a couple times. One way to combat this is to cycle always with a high cadence and easier gears.  

I’ll do that when biking to work or cruising streets, but it’s not realistic on trails where the slopes can be up to 30%, but I usually stick to the 10-15% ones after having been almost bucked off a steeper one when front wheel popped up. I go with the easy gears, but it’s not exactly a high cadence For trail runners cycling probably helps because you need stronger quads anyway…

agreed. Thanks for your comments. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Now that it’s getting hot, however, it’s about impossible to keep running at this low HR.  I decided to see what an easy pace, equivanent to 145BPM and about 9:00 per mile at 65 degrees, translates to at 80 degrees.  The answer seems to be 150 ramping up to 160 by the end. That is a hard workout, really a Lactate Threshold type run. Or worse, its a ‘junk’ zone run – not quite high enough to train LT, but high enough to do too much damage for regular training. My inclination is to let my heart rate creep up on the easy days, letting the days be just as easy on my legs but maybe into the next HR zone. I’m interested in opinions on the matter. Accept the fact that you go slower in hot weather — still use effort (%hr) as your guide. I agree that you have to slow down in hot weather to account for the general system fatigue that will accumulate if you train at too high an effort. That being said, I think there can be some allowance for cooling, without letting the HR creep up too high.  My rule of thumb is to allow my HR to creep about 5 bpm when its very hot or hot/humid, but still I have to slow down some. – Tony

Thanks for all the replies.  I see the wisdom in staying away from LT most of the time, but am still trying to figure out just where that line is.  I have read quite a few places that the LT/HR relationship changes with temperature, but have not seem much specific written about how much.  I saw a quote from Lance Armstrong today on the subject, and he said that he watches the HR but in the end listens to his legs.  That’s what I’ve been trying to do since it got hot.  Based on some unanticipated soreness Monday I think that I guessed a little high Sunday.  I’ll back off a bit more, maybe to this last +5 BPM recommendation, and see what happens.     Dave

Response:

 Now that it’s getting hot, however, it’s about impossible to keep running at this low HR.  I decided to see what an easy pace, equivanent to 145BPM and about 9:00 per mile at 65 degrees, translates to at 80 degrees.  The answer seems to be 150 ramping up to 160 by the end. That is a hard workout, really a Lactate Threshold type run.

Or worse, its a ‘junk’ zone run – not quite high enough to train LT, but high enough to do too much damage for regular training. My inclination is to let my heart rate creep up on the easy days, letting the days be just as easy on my legs but maybe into the next HR zone. I’m interested in opinions on the matter. Accept the fact that you go slower in hot weather — still use effort (%hr) as your guide.

I agree that you have to slow down in hot weather to account for the general system fatigue that will accumulate if you train at too high an effort. That being said, I think there can be some allowance for cooling, without letting the HR creep up too high.  My rule of thumb is to allow my HR to creep about 5 bpm when its very hot or hot/humid, but still I have to slow down some. – Tony

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LT work, like max HR is sport and muscle specific (so my biking LT work only carries over some to running). This is something I’ve been wondering about – cross-over effects of various training. Wouldn’t the cardiovascular effects of LT training carry over fairly strongly where the same muscle groups are involved? Cardio effects, if I understand it correctly, include such things as 1. increased heart size 2. increased blood volume 3. increased number and size of mitochondria as well as enzyme changes 4. increased number of capillaries Neuromuscular system effects 5. increased strength of muscles, tendons 6. increased power (although not as much as if you were doing drills to promote power) 7. increased coordination Specifically at LT and above 8. ability to clear lactate in muscles At my level of ignorance, I’d expect: 1 and 2 to be independent of whatever activity you’re doing 3 and 4 to have similar effects if using the same muscles, that is, running and biking might have a fair amount of cross-over (leg oriented), swimming would have less cross-over (esp. if weak kick), and xc skiing might cross-over with running for the legs (but skiing has more upper body demands than running) 5, 6, and 7 to depend strongly on the activity (specificity in training) 8 to be like 3 and 4 – effects depend on muscles used, but not necessarily used in same manner. That is LT on bike might cross over reasonably well for running – at least with regards to lactate clearing (but not for neuromuscular effects). Or is there physiology that would make very little of 1-4 and 8 cross over from mt biking or plyometric-like drills to running? I haven’t read that much about the mechanisms of what happens, so I may be approaching this very naively. I seldom do "speed" work where a person is going faster to have effort level above LT. However, I usually do "hard" workouts (close to LT or above), close to once a week much of the year when running consistently (ie. not during field season) – but they might be steep hills (running or mt biking), breaking trails with xc skis or snowshoes, cross-training class, etc. That is, I’m usually going slower in hard workouts than regular ones, but effort level is greater. In cross-training, we have drills which include high steps, butt kicks, skipping, single-legged hopping (forward and backward for everything to here), jumping over mats (forward and sideways), etc in a rapidly moving line led by instructor. That is, keep up with group or be run over (or step out for a moment so you don’t barf on his mats). Because all these activities have strong leg components, I’ve been assuming I’m getting the bulk of the cardio benefits of LT training, but not the specificity for running. Or have I been working under false assumption?

I think you’ve done more reading about it than me, and I think your assumptions are correct.  There is some carryover from LT training on the bike to running, and I’ve been sucessful doing this in the past.  It takes less time to get into peak form with running LT workouts if you’ve done them on the bike first for a while.  You still have to put in a good month of running speedwork to gain the full benefit.  Also, running uses the hamstrings much more than cycling, and cycling uses the quads – in my exeperience they are not as similar as you might think. The other thing is if your goal is running, cycling too much can easily overdevelop your legs and that will slow you down.  One way to combat this is to cycle always with a high cadence and easier gears.  For trail runners cycling probably helps because you need stronger quads anyway… – Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

My previous base pattern was to run about 2-4 times per week, once or twice for 2.5 miles and the remainder 5-7 miles.  My estimated max heart rate is between 190 and 195 based on self-performed max effort tests. …  Now that I’m running more often I’ve been keeping the easy days (all but 2/week) to 2.5 or 5 miles or so at approx 145 BPM, or about 9:00 pace. It seemed almost silly to go this slowly at first, but it certainly is easier on my joints and is pleasant enough, so I have been doing this for a few months.

That’s 74% of your maximum output — I consider this to be a medium effort. My max is 192 and I cruise at 130-135 pulse all the time on my easy days. It’s the base mileage + the particular mixture of speed work that gets you to your potential.  Recovery days at 67-70% max hr. may seem like junk miles, but they keep the base up, and get you ready for your next hard workout. If you want to improve, you probably need to increase your base mileage (and remove the hard days while you’re doing it!).  After you’ve notched up your mileage for 6-8 weeks, gradually reintroduce hard workouts.   Now that it’s getting hot, however, it’s about impossible to keep running at this low HR.  I decided to see what an easy pace, equivanent to 145BPM and about 9:00 per mile at 65 degrees, translates to at 80 degrees.  The answer seems to be 150 ramping up to 160 by the end.

That is a hard workout, really a Lactate Threshold type run. My inclination is to let my heart rate creep up on the easy days, letting the days be just as easy on my legs but maybe into the next HR zone. I’m interested in opinions on the matter.

Accept the fact that you go slower in hot weather — still use effort (%hr) as your guide. —  Dan

Response:

LT work, like max HR is sport and muscle specific (so my biking LT work only carries over some to running).

This is something I’ve been wondering about – cross-over effects of various training. Wouldn’t the cardiovascular effects of LT training carry over fairly strongly where the same muscle groups are involved? Cardio effects, if I understand it correctly, include such things as 1. increased heart size 2. increased blood volume 3. increased number and size of mitochondria as well as enzyme changes 4. increased number of capillaries Neuromuscular system effects 5. increased strength of muscles, tendons 6. increased power (although not as much as if you were doing drills to promote power) 7. increased coordination Specifically at LT and above 8. ability to clear lactate in muscles At my level of ignorance, I’d expect: 1 and 2 to be independent of whatever activity you’re doing 3 and 4 to have similar effects if using the same muscles, that is, running and biking might have a fair amount of cross-over (leg oriented), swimming would have less cross-over (esp. if weak kick), and xc skiing might cross-over with running for the legs (but skiing has more upper body demands than running) 5, 6, and 7 to depend strongly on the activity (specificity in training) 8 to be like 3 and 4 – effects depend on muscles used, but not necessarily used in same manner. That is LT on bike might cross over reasonably well for running – at least with regards to lactate clearing (but not for neuromuscular effects). Or is there physiology that would make very little of 1-4 and 8 cross over from mt biking or plyometric-like drills to running? I haven’t read that much about the mechanisms of what happens, so I may be approaching this very naively. I seldom do "speed" work where a person is going faster to have effort level above LT. However, I usually do "hard" workouts (close to LT or above), close to once a week much of the year when running consistently (ie. not during field season) – but they might be steep hills (running or mt biking), breaking trails with xc skis or snowshoes, cross-training class, etc. That is, I’m usually going slower in hard workouts than regular ones, but effort level is greater. In cross-training, we have drills which include high steps, butt kicks, skipping, single-legged hopping (forward and backward for everything to here), jumping over mats (forward and sideways), etc in a rapidly moving line led by instructor. That is, keep up with group or be run over (or step out for a moment so you don’t barf on his mats). Because all these activities have strong leg components, I’ve been assuming I’m getting the bulk of the cardio benefits of LT training, but not the specificity for running. Or have I been working under false assumption? Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

Now I understand that heat puts extra burden on the cardio system and leads to increased heart rate for similar effort.  I am also sure that heat doesn’t raise the max heart rate, it just imposes a sort of overhead burden. My question is: what is an approprate training level for easy days?  This leads to the question: what is the point of easy days?  

Run your easy days at 70% of max, even when it’s hot (meaning you’ll be running even slower). The point is to lower your aerobic threshold and build endurance. My inclination is to let my heart rate creep up on the easy days, letting the days be just as easy on my legs but maybe into the next HR zone.

The idea behind the monitor is to keep your effort <below a certain intensity. You’re back to running by perceived effort.  Why bother with a heart rate monitor at all? I’ve run with a monitor for the last several years and feel I am running much better. I don’t wear it on "hard" days very often. Running trails at elevation (6200-8000) feet makes it pretty easy to keep my heart rate up on those days. Richard

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gang, Over the past 10 years or so I’ve been in a happy rut of training at about the same effort most of the time and racing at about the same pace.  I finally have a bit more time to train, so I’m attempting to be more scientific about adding miles and maybe finally getting one of those coveted Peach Tree mugs and possibly a Boston qualifier. My previous base pattern was to run about 2-4 times per week, once or twice for 2.5 miles and the remainder 5-7 miles.  My estimated max heart rate is between 190 and 195 based on self-performed max effort tests.  I’m in my mid 40s.  When preparing for a 10K I’ll up the mileage and do intervals once a week or so.  Preparing for a marathon I’ll do more miles (rarely more than 25/week) and do long runs ramping up to 22 miles or so 3 weeks before.  I’m a huge believer in tapering, preferring to run hard one week before a race and then not all until the race.  At my low mileage, time off seems to help a lot before a big event.  I partially make up for the insufficient mileage by having enough sense to cut back during a race if my goal becomes unreasonable and just be happy to finish.  My 10K PB is 43:53 and for the marathon it’s just under 4:00 (8:58 pace).  My current focus is to get my marathon pace down to 8:00 for a Boston qualifier, if not by this December then by next year. Up to now, I figured that since I had so many days off it made sense to do all my runs fairly hard.  Now that I’m running more often I’ve been keeping the easy days (all but 2/week) to 2.5 or 5 miles or so at approx 145 BPM, or about 9:00 pace. It seemed almost silly to go this slowly at first, but it certainly is easier on my joints and is pleasant enough, so I have been doing this for a few months.  Now that it’s getting hot, however, it’s about impossible to keep running at this low HR.  I decided to see what an easy pace, equivanent to 145BPM and about 9:00 per mile at 65 degrees, translates to at 80 degrees.  The answer seems to be 150 ramping up to 160 by the end.  This is slightly slower than my cool weather pace but feels like about the same effort, both during and after the run. Now I understand that heat puts extra burden on the cardio system and leads to increased heart rate for similar effort.  I am also sure that heat doesn’t raise the max heart rate, it just imposes a sort of overhead burden. My question is: what is an approprate training level for easy days?  This leads to the question: what is the point of easy days?  My guess is that easy days let you get some miles on the legs (do SOME new muscle damage), while simultaneously allowing damage from recent hard training to heal without undully stressing the other systems.  On the other hand, maybe considerations such as lactate threshold are well estimated based solely on heart rate, and easy days really should be run at this low heart rate even if it forces walking.  Bor-ing! Clearly temperature changes the relative load on the various systems (leg muscles, cardio, lungs).  It reminds me of the little running I did in the mountains of New Mexico: I ran as hard as my lungs would let me, but my legs has a lactic acid jones on all week. My inclination is to let my heart rate creep up on the easy days, letting the days be just as easy on my legs but maybe into the next HR zone. I’m interested in opinions on the matter. Ideas?    Dave

To me there are 3 basic levels I train at: First, 4 times a week for 0:40 to 1:30 I run or cycle at moderate intensity. For me this is HR 135-150 (my max HR is about 190 for running and 185 for cycling). This is for aerobic base conditioning – training the heart-lung and basic circulatory system and teaching the body to efficiently feed the muscles while exercising.  My intensity for these efforts is based on feel and the response I’m getting from my HR.  If my HR responds quickly and I feel fresh, I go a bit harder (closer to 150), except for the long run or bike when I hold back a little. Second, two days a week I like to do either active rest or full rest. Active rest would be about HR 115 to 130, and can be easy cycling, incline treadmill walk, or a slow jog. The main benefit of active rest is to assist recover by getting some circulation through the body without stressing it. Usually the body is much happier if you don’t take a full day off but do something because its so used to it, and it helps you recover. Third, would be a speedwork day, which is aimed at making you faster with better endurance for racing.  The intensity of this effort depends on your lactate threshold (LT).  Basically your LT is the highest consistent effort level you can sustain for about one hour, and it will vary as you train it or stop training it.  The goal is to find your current LT and then train at it or slightly above it with intervals, tempo runs, or fartlek workouts. Some weeks I will do more than one day with LT like efforts, but that’s usually unintentional when I’m bike riding up a very steep hill or something.  LT work, like max HR is sport and muscle specific (so my biking LT work only carries over some to running). You won’t get much faster without LT work, and you won’t get much faster working hard but below your LT either.  That is, its very possible to run hard with virtually no more benefit than running at your aerobic pace, while doing a great deal of muscle damage to your legs in the process.  For example, my current running LT is about HR 165, and what I consider (based on feel and experience) to be my optimal aerobic training pace is HR 145. If I train at HR 150-160, it wears my legs out but does very little to make me faster because its not quite high enough to actually push up my LT.  I call this the junk zone and avoid it whenever possible. There are many ways to do LT training, and some do slightly more intense training called VO2max intervals as well.  In the past I’ve done LT intervals of 4-5 mins at 100 to 103% of current LT, with about 2 mins rests, repeated from 3 to 6 times depending on my ability that day.  Some prefer slightly longer intervals.  I also like the fartlek run because its more creative and fun.  You speed up and slow down with some long sustained efforts and some rest in between.  When I’m doing fartlek, I make sure my HR rises above the junk zone into the LT zone during the efforts.  There are so many ways to do speedwork you have to find what works for you.  Usually my LT will rise from about where it is now (165) to the mid to upper 170s after a couple of months of speed training. To estimate your current LT, you can simply record your avg HR during a 10k race in which you’re going as hard as you can for the distance.  If your time is 50+ mins then the avg HR during the race is likely very close to your LT.  If your time is less than that, then your LT might be slightly lower than your avg HR during the race.  For a 5k race usually your avg HR will be higher than your LT by a bit more than a 10k because a 5k is more anaerobic, but it can still give you an idea. For me, I measure it during interval training.  I do at least 4 efforts at what I guess is my LT and then "read" my recovery between sets, my ability to reach the same HR on the next set, and my ability to recover over the next few days.  I make note then adjust my target.  After only 6 sessions you should see your LT and your speed improve.  Of course there are many other ways to find your LT. Good luck and stay out of the junk zone. – Tony

Response:

Gang, Over the past 10 years or so I’ve been in a happy rut of training at about the same effort most of the time and racing at about the same pace.  I finally have a bit more time to train, so I’m attempting to be more scientific about adding miles and maybe finally getting one of those coveted Peach Tree mugs and possibly a Boston qualifier. My previous base pattern was to run about 2-4 times per week, once or twice for 2.5 miles and the remainder 5-7 miles.  My estimated max heart rate is between 190 and 195 based on self-performed max effort tests.  I’m in my mid 40s.  When preparing for a 10K I’ll up the mileage and do intervals once a week or so.  Preparing for a marathon I’ll do more miles (rarely more than 25/week) and do long runs ramping up to 22 miles or so 3 weeks before.  I’m a huge believer in tapering, preferring to run hard one week before a race and then not all until the race.  At my low mileage, time off seems to help a lot before a big event.  I partially make up for the insufficient mileage by having enough sense to cut back during a race if my goal becomes unreasonable and just be happy to finish.  My 10K PB is 43:53 and for the marathon it’s just under 4:00 (8:58 pace).  My current focus is to get my marathon pace down to 8:00 for a Boston qualifier, if not by this December then by next year. Up to now, I figured that since I had so many days off it made sense to do all my runs fairly hard.  Now that I’m running more often I’ve been keeping the easy days (all but 2/week) to 2.5 or 5 miles or so at approx 145 BPM, or about 9:00 pace. It seemed almost silly to go this slowly at first, but it certainly is easier on my joints and is pleasant enough, so I have been doing this for a few months.  Now that it’s getting hot, however, it’s about impossible to keep running at this low HR.  I decided to see what an easy pace, equivanent to 145BPM and about 9:00 per mile at 65 degrees, translates to at 80 degrees.  The answer seems to be 150 ramping up to 160 by the end.  This is slightly slower than my cool weather pace but feels like about the same effort, both during and after the run. Now I understand that heat puts extra burden on the cardio system and leads to increased heart rate for similar effort.  I am also sure that heat doesn’t raise the max heart rate, it just imposes a sort of overhead burden. My question is: what is an approprate training level for easy days?  This leads to the question: what is the point of easy days?  My guess is that easy days let you get some miles on the legs (do SOME new muscle damage), while simultaneously allowing damage from recent hard training to heal without undully stressing the other systems.  On the other hand, maybe considerations such as lactate threshold are well estimated based solely on heart rate, and easy days really should be run at this low heart rate even if it forces walking.  Bor-ing! Clearly temperature changes the relative load on the various systems (leg muscles, cardio, lungs).  It reminds me of the little running I did in the mountains of New Mexico: I ran as hard as my lungs would let me, but my legs has a lactic acid jones on all week. My inclination is to let my heart rate creep up on the easy days, letting the days be just as easy on my legs but maybe into the next HR zone. I’m interested in opinions on the matter. Ideas?     Dave

Response: