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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Straight from memory, isn’t this a knee cap tracking problem and often attributed to underdevelopment of VMO when compaired to the rest of your leg? See Krista’s website stumptuous.com and you can also try bob’s kneeboard, search and it will pop up.  Krista had it for a while and there are usually a half a dozen folks with some type of patella tracking problems on Bob’s at any given time. I remember soccer ball wall squats with feet a little closer than shoulder width apart being a rehab exercise.  Personally I would avoid sugery for this one. Dufus Thanks,   I knew Krista had a knee issue on her site, but thought it was different. I do want to avoid surgery,  And I do want to be able to stay active. Hence, I want a good education on this.

Hells Bells, I got PFS and Chondro confused.  Bob’s kneeboard will still work though and the symptoms are similar. Dufus

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Crossposted to ASD and MFW for input. Stats: Female age 32yrs 5′3", 135lbs workout with combo of weights and cardio I’ve been dealing with knee pain for a while now and finally sucked it up and went to the doc.   After a 45min wait in the waiting room, another 15 in the exam room, a 10 min consult and doc says: "Chondromalacia" OK, so flash backs to highschool – this is what I had back then. This is what is bothering me know. Treatment:  PT, for 4 weeks.  Spend lots of time on the stationary bike.  If no improvement, off to Othropedic for further treatment. Now, the question is…..  What are the suggestions from those in the group?   How do I handle workouts? Running/jogging? Biking? Weights? Squats? Lunges or deadlifts? What should and shouldn’t I do at this point.   I now have to go spend time researching this to determine my next course of action.

Straight from memory, isn’t this a knee cap tracking problem and often attributed to underdevelopment of VMO when compaired to the rest of your leg? See Krista’s website stumptuous.com and you can also try bob’s kneeboard, search and it will pop up.  Krista had it for a while and there are usually a half a dozen folks with some type of patella tracking problems on Bob’s at any given time. I remember soccer ball wall squats with feet a little closer than shoulder width apart being a rehab exercise.  Personally I would avoid sugery for this one. Dufus

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Straight from memory, isn’t this a knee cap tracking problem and often attributed to underdevelopment of VMO when compaired to the rest of your leg?  See Krista’s website stumptuous.com and you can also try bob’s kneeboard, search and it will pop up.  Krista had it for a while and there are usually a half a dozen folks with some type of patella tracking problems on Bob’s at any given time. I remember soccer ball wall squats with feet a little closer than shoulder width apart being a rehab exercise.  Personally I would avoid sugery for this one.  Dufus Thanks,   I knew Krista had a knee issue on her site, but thought it was different. I do want to avoid surgery,  And I do want to be able to stay active. Hence, I want a good education on this. Hells Bells, I got PFS and Chondro confused.  

I thought they were two different names for the same thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob’s kneeboard will still work though and the symptoms are similar. Dufus

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     People who ride a bike much know what I am talking about.  To peddle in circles is referring to the practice of making a conciouss effort to not just peddle up and down on the bike cranks.  Rather the motion is to use the crank and conciously try to make the crank for follow a circular motion. Takes the strain off the knees somewhat and is good for joint problems. I think I know what you mean.   When I bike I will spend time focusing on the full cycle of a peddle.   Its not just the "push down" motion on each leg, its the whole cycle, push forward, thru the bottom, then pull back and up thru the top. I know what yo mean now – although it did sound funny before. Riiight. Forcing the femur forward and pulling it rearward, rather than letting momentum from the up and down stroke carry the knee around passively, would be EASIER on the knee. I’m glad that makes complete sense to you.

It’s just like how leg extensions are better for you than squats. But it’s PEDAL, dammit PEDAL! — -Wayne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. peddle in circles – as opposed to what – squares or triangles?    :-)     People who ride a bike much know what I am talking about.  To peddle in circles is referring to the practice of making a conciouss effort to not just peddle up and down on the bike cranks.  Rather the motion is to use the crank and conciously try to make the crank for follow a circular motion. Takes the strain off the knees somewhat and is good for joint problems.

Here’s instructions on how to do it….. http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa010401b.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Crossposted to ASD and MFW for input. Stats: Female age 32yrs 5′3", 135lbs workout with combo of weights and cardio I’ve been dealing with knee pain for a while now and finally sucked it up and went to the doc.   After a 45min wait in the waiting room, another 15 in the exam room, a 10 min consult and doc says: "Chondromalacia" OK, so flash backs to highschool – this is what I had back then. This is what is bothering me know. Treatment:  PT, for 4 weeks.  Spend lots of time on the stationary bike.  If no improvement, off to Othropedic for further treatment. Now, the question is…..  What are the suggestions from those in the group?   How do I handle workouts? Running/jogging? Biking? Weights? Squats? Lunges or deadlifts? What should and shouldn’t I do at this point.   I now have to go spend time researching this to determine my next course of action. I have chondromalacia as well – for me, the symptoms seem to come and go. You’ll get a lot of advice, much of it conflicting. In fact, you already have!  Do leg extensions – Avoid leg extensions. Do squats – don’t. Whatever.

It only seems like conflicting advice to people who oversimplify it. Do leg extensions, concentrating on the top portion of the movement – it’s the bottom part that’s hard on the knees and the top part that strengthens the VM, which helps stabilize the kneecap. Do squats, but make sure you go down as far as you can – reversing direction at the point where there’s the most stress on the knee is bad for the knees, but doing the full ROM will strengthen the knees. Geez, it’s all so complicated.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Crossposted to ASD and MFW for input. Stats: Female age 32yrs 5′3", 135lbs workout with combo of weights and cardio I’ve been dealing with knee pain for a while now and finally sucked it up and went to the doc.   After a 45min wait in the waiting room, another 15 in the exam room, a 10 min consult and doc says: "Chondromalacia" OK, so flash backs to highschool – this is what I had back then. This is what is bothering me know. Treatment:  PT, for 4 weeks.  Spend lots of time on the stationary bike.  If no improvement, off to Othropedic for further treatment. Now, the question is…..  What are the suggestions from those in the group?   How do I handle workouts? Running/jogging? Biking? Weights? Squats? Lunges or deadlifts? What should and shouldn’t I do at this point.   I now have to go spend time researching this to determine my next course of action.

I have chondromalacia as well – for me, the symptoms seem to come and go. You’ll get a lot of advice, much of it conflicting. In fact, you already have!  Do leg extensions – Avoid leg extensions. Do squats – don’t. Whatever. My take – try to strengthen your leg muscles (particularly the quads) and stretch them (particularly the hamstrings) as much as you can. the first time you try an exercise, be careful – what helps one person’s knee can aggrevate another – and if it hurts, don’t do that one.  But do as much as you can – the more you use it without hurting it, the better it will stay. Oh – and a minor thing – if you’re doing machine weights, do each leg separately. that way, you’re sure you’re giving each leg the amount of weight it can handle (and you’re also ensuring the good leg isn’t overcompensating for the bad one) …megan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. peddle in circles – as opposed to what – squares or triangles?    :-) Just don’t pedal in pentagrams. It draws the wrong crowd. Mormons?

Joint Chiefs?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hells Bells, I got PFS and Chondro confused.   I thought they were two different names for the same thing. They do appear to be the same thing.   And to throw an even more generic term, I’m finding some call it "Runner’s Knee." From what I am gathering, it starts with PFS, and if left untreated can lead to Chondro (which is the softening and wearing away of cartlidge).   WebMD catagorizes is at "Patellar Tracking Disorder" that when left untreated can lead to Chondromalacia or Osteoarthritis of the knee. And my dog has "patellar luxation". As far as I can tell, it all means pretty much the same thing – the kneecap doesn’t track the way it’s supposed to.

ANOTHER dog with knee problems? Are your dogs doing a lousy job of playing the numbers and getting in debt to the wrong people? What are you doing for PT, other than the stationary bike? And have you tried taking glucosamine? Also, how deep do you squat? My knees seem to prefer deep squats (although my ankle doesn’t, but that’s being taken care of very soon).

hGH insoles?

Response:

I think you need to talk to your physcial therapist and see what they recommend!!!  They will be able to better evaluate what your limitations will be so you don’t keep re-injuring your knee.  Do you have an appointment set up?  Also, avoid Health South!  They will rip you off and not help.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, the question is…..  What are the suggestions from those in the group?   How do I handle workouts? Running/jogging? Biking? Weights? Squats? Lunges or deadlifts? What should and shouldn’t I do at this point.   I now have to go spend time researching this to determine my next course of action.

Response:

 If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. ! ? !! ?? !?!?!? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha… MINE! David — "If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles."—"Oldman"

That’s a beauty! ps

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. peddle in circles – as opposed to what – squares or triangles?     People who ride a bike much know what I am talking about.  To peddle in circles is referring to the practice of making a conciouss effort to not just peddle up and down on the bike cranks.  Rather the motion is to use the crank and conciously try to make the crank for follow a circular motion. Takes the strain off the knees somewhat and is good for joint problems. I think I know what you mean.   When I bike I will spend time focusing on the full cycle of a peddle.   Its not just the "push down" motion on each leg, its the whole cycle, push forward, thru the bottom, then pull back and up thru the top. I know what yo mean now – although it did sound funny before.

Riiight. Forcing the femur forward and pulling it rearward, rather than letting momentum from the up and down stroke carry the knee around passively, would be EASIER on the knee. I’m glad that makes complete sense to you. David — "If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles."—"Oldman"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. peddle in circles – as opposed to what – squares or triangles?    :-)     People who ride a bike much know what I am talking about.  To peddle in circles is referring to the practice of making a conciouss effort to not just peddle up and down on the bike cranks.  Rather the motion is to use the crank and conciously try to make the crank for follow a circular motion. Takes the strain off the knees somewhat and is good for joint problems.

I think I know what you mean.   When I bike I will spend time focusing on the full cycle of a peddle.   Its not just the "push down" motion on each leg, its the whole cycle, push forward, thru the bottom, then pull back and up thru the top. I know what yo mean now – although it did sound funny before.

Response:

Here are the things I’d recommend, based on my experience.  (I should note that I’m not a physician and that YMMV and all that stuff.)

Thanks for the input Chris!  * If you’re not already doing it, start taking glucosamine/ chondroitin.

I’ve got it, just don’t take it religously.  I’m bad about taking drugs/pills.   I just don’t remember to take them daily…  (I posted about this a few months back).   But I’m going to give it a try.  I know (from what I’ve read) that it takes a good 2 months of regular use of G/C before the affects take hold.  * Do leg extensions if they don’t feel like they aggravate your knees.  I find them therapeutic when my knees flare up.  I don’t bother with them unless I’m having knee pain.  * Do deep (below parallel — ass to grass) squats.  If you don’t know how now, learn this.  Start with no added weight if you’re new to it. Keep doing them after your knees recover, to help prevent future problems.

I can do ass to the grass, but I always get the conflicting info when I do them.   So many people are against the A2G and say to only go parallel. Its weird.  You read here and mfw and its all about how low you can go, yet you go to the gym and people say otherwise. I started using the leg press machine instead, as it was easier on my shoulders.  * Do hamstring, quad, and achilles tendon stretches — religiously, twice a day.

Besides the standard (quad stretch by pulling leg behind and calf stretch by doing a lunge, do you have some other good stretches you could recomend?  * Avoid impact exercises like running or lots of walking, particularly on pavement.  Avoid stairs when possible.  Avoid jumping (well, at least the landing part ).

stairs is not a problem around here.   single story house, single store work place.   My only issue now, besides the fact that I like to walk/jog with the dog, is the walking I do at work.  we are building a new office 2 building away (about 1/4 mile) and I walk between the 2 buildings multiple times a day (in dress shoes).   I now have my sneakers at work, and will start wearing them for the longer walks.   * Don’t do the stationary bike if it hurts.  You might find an elliptical trainer more comfortable.  Water exercise is also great for someone whose knees hurt.  If a repetitive exercise is painful, it’s not a good choice for you.

Actually – it was using the elliptical while on vacation that helped to start this whole thing.  I can do the bike now – but even this weekend I tried out an elliptical at the store and it hurt just to try to do a couple circles. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   * Ice your knees if they’re sore.   * For always — not just when your knees are bothering you — avoid twisting your leg with your foot planted on the ground. Good luck! Chris

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. peddle in circles – as opposed to what – squares or triangles?    :-) Just don’t pedal in pentagrams. It draws the wrong crowd. Mormons?

Satan worshipers.

Response:

I had a very serious problem with chondromalacia several years ago. I’m now generally pain-free, but I still get little flare-ups of it now and then. Here are the things I’d recommend, based on my experience.  (I should note that I’m not a physician and that YMMV and all that stuff.)  * If you’re not already doing it, start taking glucosamine/ chondroitin.  * Do leg extensions if they don’t feel like they aggravate your knees.  I find them therapeutic when my knees flare up.  I don’t bother with them unless I’m having knee pain.  * Do deep (below parallel — ass to grass) squats.  If you don’t know how now, learn this.  Start with no added weight if you’re new to it. Keep doing them after your knees recover, to help prevent future problems.  * Do hamstring, quad, and achilles tendon stretches — religiously, twice a day.  * Avoid impact exercises like running or lots of walking, particularly on pavement.  Avoid stairs when possible.  Avoid jumping (well, at least the landing part ).   * Don’t do the stationary bike if it hurts.  You might find an elliptical trainer more comfortable.  Water exercise is also great for someone whose knees hurt.  If a repetitive exercise is painful, it’s not a good choice for you.   * Ice your knees if they’re sore.   * For always — not just when your knees are bothering you — avoid twisting your leg with your foot planted on the ground.   Good luck! Chris

Response:

   The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. peddle in circles – as opposed to what – squares or triangles?    :-)

    People who ride a bike much know what I am talking about.  To peddle in circles is referring to the practice of making a conciouss effort to not just peddle up and down on the bike cranks.  Rather the motion is to use the crank and conciously try to make the crank for follow a circular motion. Takes the strain off the knees somewhat and is good for joint problems.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. peddle in circles – as opposed to what – squares or triangles?    :-) Just don’t pedal in pentagrams. It draws the wrong crowd.

Mormons? Proton Soup

Response:

   The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles. peddle in circles – as opposed to what – squares or triangles?    :-)

Just don’t pedal in pentagrams. It draws the wrong crowd.

Response:

 If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles.

! ? !! ?? !?!?!? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaha… MINE! David — "If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles."—"Oldman"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Crossposted to ASD and MFW for input. Stats: Female age 32yrs 5′3", 135lbs workout with combo of weights and cardio I’ve been dealing with knee pain for a while now and finally sucked it up and went to the doc.   After a 45min wait in the waiting room, another 15 in the exam room, a 10 min consult and doc says: "Chondromalacia" OK, so flash backs to highschool – this is what I had back then. This is what is bothering me know. Treatment:  PT, for 4 weeks.  Spend lots of time on the stationary bike.  If no improvement, off to Othropedic for further treatment. Now, the question is…..  What are the suggestions from those in the group?   How do I handle workouts? Running/jogging? Biking? Weights? Squats? Lunges or deadlifts? What should and shouldn’t I do at this point.   I now have to go spend time researching this to determine my next course of action.

    The deep knne bend has helped my knee tremendously.  Make sure your knee is warmed up though.  If you use a bicycle be sure to peddle in circles.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, I’m not a doc…  so what do I know.  I just want to go back to pain free exercise.   What are you doing for PT, other than the stationary bike? And have you tried taking glucosamine? Also, how deep do you squat? My knees seem to prefer deep squats (although my ankle doesn’t, but that’s being taken care of very soon). I haven’t started PT yet.  I just saw the doc this am about this. I’ve got the script for PT, and now have that wonderful choice of finding a PT to go to.   I’ve just switched insurances, and now have to deal with an HMO, so its a matter of looking up a list of local PT’s and calling around to see who is close by, convienence and will cause the least disruption on my work.  

Ahh. Good luck with that. HMOs suck. The only thing the doc said was stationary bike.  I asked if my recumbent is ok, or what about cycling around town (I live in a low lying area, no hills to deal with).   If all I have to do is ride a stationary bike 3 x a week for 4 weeks – I can do that at home.  But if the goal is to build up those muscles around the knee, I’m not sure how the stationary bike will work, as biking is somehting I do regularly and I’ve got the recumbent bike in the back bedroom for indoor activities.  

I don’t see how that would help either, if you’ve been doing it regularly already and are still having problems. What I’ve been doing to strengthen/improve recruitment of the VM is leg extensions, with a hold and squeeze at the top. Some people have had success with step-ups. Here’s some good stuff on those, from Elzi’s site. http://www.moleculegirl.com/Stepups.htm You might want to discuss those options with the PT. As for squats, I can do both, either deep (but not as much weight) or heavier but only to vertical.  Lately though, I’ve been using the leg press machine instead of squats.

The deep squats are better for your knees, if you’re going to squat at all. I’m not sure if the leg presses do anything for the knees either way.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hells Bells, I got PFS and Chondro confused.   I thought they were two different names for the same thing. They do appear to be the same thing.   And to throw an even more generic term, I’m finding some call it "Runner’s Knee." From what I am gathering, it starts with PFS, and if left untreated can lead to Chondro (which is the softening and wearing away of cartlidge).   WebMD catagorizes is at "Patellar Tracking Disorder" that when left untreated can lead to Chondromalacia or Osteoarthritis of the knee.

And my dog has "patellar luxation". As far as I can tell, it all means pretty much the same thing – the kneecap doesn’t track the way it’s supposed to. I’m not sure if I understand how a doc can diagnos Chondro with just some simple pushing/pulling on the leg to rule out ligament or muscle problems and then say "knee cap tracking problem" = Chondromalacia.

I think they can tell if the knee isn’t tracking right. One of the tests my chiropractor did on me to confirm that it was chondromalacia was to hold the kneecap and have me contract my quads. If that hurts (which it did) they diagnose chondromalacia patella. (I just googled it; it’s called "Clarke’s sign".) But, I’m not a doc…  so what do I know.  I just want to go back to pain free exercise.  

What are you doing for PT, other than the stationary bike? And have you tried taking glucosamine? Also, how deep do you squat? My knees seem to prefer deep squats (although my ankle doesn’t, but that’s being taken care of very soon).

Response:

I’ve got it, just don’t take it religously.  I’m bad about taking drugs/pills.   I just don’t remember to take them daily…  (I posted about this a few months back).  

I know what you mean.  I don’t always manage to take my pills either . I can do ass to the grass, but I always get the conflicting info when I do them.   So many people are against the A2G and say to only go parallel. Its weird.  You read here and mfw and its all about how low you can go, yet you go to the gym and people say otherwise.

Ignore the people in the gym.  The halfway position is very hard on the knee.  And the form one usually uses when squatting this way also puts more strain on the knee.  A2G is easier on the knees and helps build quad strength, which you need to keep the knee alignment. I started using the leg press machine instead, as it was easier on my shoulders.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn’t hurt your knees.  Don’t be afraid to go up in weight, though.  Leg press done with an easy weight isn’t very useful for adding strength.  * Do hamstring, quad, and achilles tendon stretches — religiously, twice a day. Besides the standard (quad stretch by pulling leg behind and calf stretch by doing a lunge, do you have some other good stretches you could recomend?

Those are definitely the standards.  For the hamstrings, sit with legs outstretched in front of you in a v, and reach toward toes on one side and then the other.  Or stand and put one foot up on a counter and stretch toward it.  I also like the exercise where you sit, draw up your legs, put the soles of your feet together, and gently press your knees down to the sides.   stairs is not a problem around here.   single story house, single store work place.   My only issue now, besides the fact that I like to walk/jog with the dog, is the walking I do at work.  we are building a new office 2 building away (about 1/4 mile) and I walk between the 2 buildings multiple times a day (in dress shoes).   I now have my sneakers at work, and will start wearing them for the longer walks.

Make sure your sneakers are good ones, and not too old or worn.  You might want to try some kind of insert for added support.  I like Superfeet inserts, and New Balance shoes. Actually – it was using the elliptical while on vacation that helped to start this whole thing.  I can do the bike now – but even this weekend I tried out an elliptical at the store and it hurt just to try to do a couple circles.

Well then I’d definitely stay away from ellipticals.  If an exercise hurts your knees, this is not an example of "good pain".  Don’t do it. Chris

Response:

Riiight. Forcing the femur forward and pulling it rearward, rather than letting momentum from the up and down stroke carry the knee around passively, would be EASIER on the knee. I’m glad that makes complete sense to you. It’s just like how leg extensions are better for you than squats. But it’s PEDAL, dammit PEDAL!

I’m glad someone took the time to correct that. It was really bugging me. To ‘peddle’ is to sell stuff.

Response: