Run Run Away

Question:

Would appreciate any comments that anybody can make! I’ve recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour (8km) runs — I find the slower pace allows me to keep going. During the second-to-last run, I put the incline up slightly on the machine, and noticed a niggling feeling in my left calf. Over the last run today, the niggling feeling turned into a dull pain — quite slight, but it’s got a little (not much) worse over the day today since the run this morning. The pain isn’t acute (yet?), but localised within the muscle just below my calf or in the very lower part of my calf. QUESTION: What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I’d like to keep on with the running! I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take it easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be taking more time than I’m taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the calf area but also archilles. What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills? I’d like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM. TIA for any thoughts, perspectives, experiences, etc.! Best wishes Robin

Response:

Would appreciate any comments that anybody can make!

Yes – you added an incline and your calf muscles/tendons started to hurt.  I’d take this seriously, go back to flat running or no running at all until you don’t feel the pain any longer, then introduce hills in the way the occur in natural – for short amounts of time.  You can make them longer as you get used to running uphill.  Could be muscles, could be Achilles tendon, could even be plantar fascia. Stretch your calves regularly after running, especially when you do hills.  Try to end the run on a flat section for enough time to allow things to return to normal. 8km/hour is about 5 miles/hour, which is about 12 minutes per mile, which is very slow – I can walk that fast.  Even if you can’t run non-stop, I would not do the bulk of my running this slowly.  Do shorter runs then do a one-hour run once per week, no more often, for now at least.  20-40 minutes for a regular run is fine, stopping and starting is fine, varying the pace is great. Outside is better than a treadmill in every way possible, save the ability to run a precise speed over constant terrain, a useless skill if you ask me. -S- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour (8km) runs — I find the slower pace allows me to keep going. During the second-to-last run, I put the incline up slightly on the machine, and noticed a niggling feeling in my left calf. Over the last run today, the niggling feeling turned into a dull pain — quite slight, but it’s got a little (not much) worse over the day today since the run this morning. The pain isn’t acute (yet?), but localised within the muscle just below my calf or in the very lower part of my calf. QUESTION: What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I’d like to keep on with the running! I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take it easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be taking more time than I’m taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the calf area but also archilles. What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills? I’d like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM. TIA for any thoughts, perspectives, experiences, etc.! Best wishes Robin

Response:

[ good stuff snipped for brevity ] Outside is better than a treadmill in every way possible, save the ability to run a precise speed over constant terrain, a useless skill if you ask me.

The main advantage of the treadmill is convenience. It is useful if it is too cold or dark unsafe to run outside. The treadmill will not help you pace yourself IMO (I find my ability to pace myself is shot after a few weeks of treadmill running), though it will help ensure that your workouts go at the right pace. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Would appreciate any comments that anybody can make! I’ve recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour (8km) runs — I find the slower pace allows me to keep going. During the second-to-last run, I put the incline up slightly on the machine, and noticed a niggling feeling in my left calf.

You need to do some reading on running injuries and try to work out what it is. Apply the appropriate treatment for that injury (tendon injuries usually require ice, for example) It’s hard to tell from your description. Over the last run today, the niggling feeling turned into a dull pain — quite slight, but it’s got a little (not much) worse over the day today since the run this morning.

Stop running for a couple of days, then you’ll need to re-evaluate your program when you return. In fact it might be a good idea to do some sort of other exercise instead (like the bike or elliptical) for the next week or so. What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I’d like to keep on with the running!

Don’t run on an incline. Beware of overly cushioned treadmills. I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take it easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be taking more time than I’m taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the calf area but also archilles.

You can’t stretch tendons. Stretching your calves is a good idea, but I doubt that doing the stretching before a run will help besides providing general flexibility benefits What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills?

Running on treadmills is fine if you can take the boredom. Different treadmills have different levels of shock absorbtion, like different running surfaces. Really soft surfaces put more stress on your calves (for example, running on the beach). Really hard surfaces increase the stress on your knees. Running uphills puts more stress on your calves and achilles tendons, and running downhill puts more stress on your knees. For you I’d suggest running on a firm surface and avoiding steep inclines (up or downhill) I’d like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM.

Runs of this duration are rare even among well trained marathon runners. The usual "long run" is of 1 hour to 2 hours duration (closer to 2 hours with more experienced runners) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I’ve recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour (8km) runs — I find the slower pace allows me to keep going. I’d like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM. Runs of this duration are rare even among well trained marathon runners. The usual "long run" is of 1 hour to 2 hours duration (closer to 2 hours with more experienced runners)

  For marathon training at the paces this person is describing, three hours is pretty reasonable – that’s < 15 miles.  For an every other week run in the months before a marathon, perfectly good goal to build up to.  If the goal is to improve in general running fitness, I agree with you;  better to do more 1.5-2 hour long runs and not destroy yourself with a 3 hour run.  -Dave — work: dga – at – lcs.mit.edu                   me:  angio – at – pobox.com       MIT Laboratory for Computer Science           http://www.angio.net/       (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed…)       bulk emailers:  I do not accept unsolicited email.  Do not mail me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would appreciate any comments that anybody can make! I’ve recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour (8km) runs — I find the slower pace allows me to keep going. During the second-to-last run, I put the incline up slightly on the machine, and noticed a niggling feeling in my left calf. Over the last run today, the niggling feeling turned into a dull pain — quite slight, but it’s got a little (not much) worse over the day today since the run this morning. The pain isn’t acute (yet?), but localised within the muscle just below my calf or in the very lower part of my calf.

Not to sound smart, but are you waiting for it to become acute? Injuries are tricky and can’t be diagnosed via the internet.  If they could, that would put the medical profession pretty much out of business. QUESTION: What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I’d like to keep on with the running!

Difficult if not impossible to tell without a proper diagnosis.  Keep running?  Well let me see… It’s RICE (REST Incline Compression and Elevation)…the key is REST… just remember they work as a coherant element – not pick and choose the one’s you want do… that may not work (uh, it probably will not work is more correct).  So, keep running… doesn’t sound like rest to me. I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take it easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be taking more time than I’m taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the calf area but also archilles.

Assumptions are dangerous.  If you think it is insignificant… then just RICE.  It that doesn’t work… then see a physician.  Stretching warming up are good solutions to preventing injury.  You already have an injury… Stretching could be compounding the problem.  Warming up – well, that’s not rest (now is it). What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills?

Might work… what’s your base training level?  What your Max. HR. or VO2 max.?  What your orignal standard for effort (i.e., HR) for constant activity ratio?  As you can, specific training regimen (in and of itself) is not the defining element for improvement. I’d like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM. TIA for any thoughts, perspectives, experiences, etc.! Best wishes Robin

If you want to build up to faster and better runs… you need to learn the value of rest.  Most improvement occurs with recovery.  Recovery is the least understood and most underestimated part of training. Good Luck FWIW  Joe Moya

Response:

One word… Yoga.

Two words…   is pointless. Roger.

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163600.news.dfncis.de: One word… Yoga. Two words…   is pointless. Roger.

Can either of you string a few more words together to justify your positions?

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Try a spinning class at your local gym. Spinning can do wonders for minor pains in the lower leg, and serves as a respectable complement to running.

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One word… Yoga. Two words…   is pointless. Can either of you string a few more words together to justify your positions?

Not me.   My distrust of Yoga is based on a deep loathing of all four-letter words that start with the letter "Y". Roger.  <Yup, I’m bored again

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One word… Yoga. Two words…   is pointless. Can either of you string a few more words together to justify your positions? Not me.   My distrust of Yoga is based on a deep loathing of all four-letter words that start with the letter "Y". Roger.  <Yup, I’m bored again

Hmmm… Yarn? Yank – OK, this is justified Yoda – I kinda like the guy! Yo-yo? York? Yams? Yipe? Your? Yerk – "jerk" with a swedish acent

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Hmmm… Yarn? Yank – OK, this is justified Yoda – I kinda like the guy! Yo-yo? York? Yams? Yipe? Your? Yerk – "jerk" with a swedish acent

Aaargh!   Stop it!   I hate them all! Roger.

Response:

Hi folks. Firstly, thanks for all the replies — all useful perspectives on my situation. Thanks for taking the time to provide them. Reconsidering, I should have been more accurate in my initial post, and more structured. As is often the case, this becomes more obvious when considering the replies! Responding to each in turn … Regards Robin You need to do some reading on running injuries and try to work out what it is. Apply the appropriate treatment for that injury (tendon injuries usually require ice, for example) It’s hard to tell from your description.

I don’t think it’s the tendon, but can’t be sure. Today, it’s almost gone, so the amount of damage may not be that great. Stop running for a couple of days, then you’ll need to re-evaluate your program when you return. In fact it might be a good idea to do some sort of other exercise instead (like the bike or elliptical) for the next week or so.

This was my default position. I’m giving it a rest, and the next run will be shorter and better prepared in terms of stretching. Don’t run on an incline. Beware of overly cushioned treadmills.

OK. For the sake of interest, why avoid an incline? Are you saying avoid inclines while the injury is present, in general, or just on treadmills? You can’t stretch tendons. Stretching your calves is a good idea, but I doubt that doing the stretching before a run will help besides providing general flexibility benefits

I figured I’ll pay more attention to stretching my calves as they’ve probably contracted somewhat since I’ve been doing the longer runs. Running on treadmills is fine if you can take the boredom.

Yes, it is very much a mental challenge. It’s inconvenient for me to run outside at the moment, but this should change in the coming months. Different treadmills have different levels of shock absorbtion, like different running surfaces. Really soft surfaces put more stress on your calves (for example, running on the beach). Really hard surfaces increase the stress on your knees. Running uphills puts more stress on your calves and achilles tendons, and running downhill puts more stress on your knees.

All good stuff. I’ll try the treadmill on 0.00 incline. It’s not too soft or too hard (well, seemingly … ). For you I’d suggest running on a firm surface and avoiding steep inclines (up or downhill)

Will bear this in mind. I’d like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM. Runs of this duration are rare even among well trained marathon runners. The usual "long run" is of 1 hour to 2 hours duration (closer to 2 hours with more experienced runners)

Maybe this is where it would be good for me to talk about goals. [background, for what it's worth -- ignore as required!] I’m 175cm (5′8"?) and about 96kg (down from 100kg six weeks ago). My estimation is that I should be 85-90kg — I’ve got quite hefty legs, and am generally stocky. I eat a healthy diet. I used to do sprint triathlons, sea swims, duathlons, etc. Just short stuff. Not competitively — purely on a fitness and self-development basis. My real strength is swimming — 5/6 times per week, 1.5km-3km per swim, mixing it up a lot (freestyle, fly, etc.). What I’d like to do is reach a level of fitness where I can pace myself through and enjoy a 20-30km run without stressing my knees (formerly the source of aches and pains, but not injury as such). Possibly the result of some strengthening (targeted weights) of the muscles around them, the knees are much better now and don’t give me any trouble. I might look at a half-marathon, but just as an achievable goal rather than something I have to complete within X time or bust. I’d ideally like to combine running and swimming with X-country skiing in Winter, but that’s a bit in the future … (location-wise). On to the other responses … thanks Donovan. Cheers Robin

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The main advantage of the treadmill is convenience. It is useful if it is too cold or dark unsafe to run outside.

Yes this is the correct background. The treadmill will not help you pace yourself IMO (I find my ability to pace myself is shot after a few weeks of treadmill running), though it will help ensure that your workouts go at the right pace.

This is interesting. One thing I initially found about the treadmill is that it helped me pace myself. This will need to be compared again with some outdoor running pretty soon. The paced outdoor running is the goal anyway :O) Cheers Robin

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Not to sound smart, but are you waiting for it to become acute?

:O) A thoughtful question. No, I’m not one to hammer away at such injuries, small as they may be, until I’m lame or need sticks to walk. Injuries are tricky and can’t be diagnosed via the internet.  If they could, that would put the medical profession pretty much out of business.

Good point! There is a lot of useful information out there, but no substitute for knowledge and experience on the spot. There is a range of skill in this area though, even amongst "qualified professionals" :O) Difficult if not impossible to tell without a proper diagnosis.  Keep running?  Well let me see… It’s RICE (REST Incline Compression and Elevation)…the key is REST… just remember they work as a coherant element – not pick and choose the one’s you want do… that may not work (uh, it probably will not work is more correct).  So, keep running… doesn’t sound like rest to me.

Apologies –I didn’t give enough information. I’m running three times per week or so, and today the pain is pretty much gone. I know this doesn’t mean much right now, as if I went out for a run today, I’d probably find myself in the same situation (or worse) as yesterday. What I plan to do is wait another day, then do a shorter run without incline, and stop at the slightest hint that something’s not right (could be less than pain … for example, tightening in the area where there was pain). Assumptions are dangerous.  If you think it is insignificant… then just RICE.  It that doesn’t work… then see a physician.  Stretching warming up are good solutions to preventing injury.  You already have an injury… Stretching could be compounding the problem.  Warming up – well, that’s not rest (now is it).

I think it’s a matter of degree of rest required with this injury. Might work… what’s your base training level?  What your Max. HR. or VO2 max.?

Don’t know about VO2 max, but max HR is around 185. What your orignal standard for effort (i.e., HR) for constant activity ratio?

Don’t know — how to measure this? At rest it’s 47/48. If you want to build up to faster and better runs… you need to learn the value of rest.  Most improvement occurs with recovery.  Recovery is the least understood and most underestimated part of training.

Noted. Thanks Joe. Robin

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  For marathon training at the paces this person is describing, three hours is pretty reasonable – that’s < 15 miles.  For an every other week run in the months before a marathon, perfectly good goal to build up to.  If the goal is to improve in general running fitness, I agree with you;  better to do more 1.5-2 hour long runs and not destroy yourself with a 3 hour run.

Thanks for this Dave. I’ve scaled back to the 1.5-2 hour length for now as you’ve suggested as when I’m there I will then have more data/exp/etc. to make a my decision as to whether I go further from there. Cheers Robin

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You’ve obviously missed the point of yoga. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One word… Yoga. Two words…   is pointless. Can either of you string a few more words together to justify your positions? Not me.   My distrust of Yoga is based on a deep loathing of all four-letter words that start with the letter "Y". Roger.  <Yup, I’m bored again

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Spinning is useless waste of time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try a spinning class at your local gym. Spinning can do wonders for minor pains in the lower leg, and serves as a respectable complement to running.

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You’ve obviously missed the point of yoga.

Which is, ecce?

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Spinning is useless waste of time.

What would you suggest insead Steve (just asking!). TIA Robin

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Snip Might work… what’s your base training level?  What your Max. HR. or VO2 max.? Don’t know about VO2 max, but max HR is around 185.

That’s a good start (knowing your Max HR – provided it’s accurate)… to build a base you should keep your HR at or about 70-75 (for some 80% is acceptable – but, not likely good for 95% of athletes).  Stay at that HR for longer periods of time… that sometimes referred to as volume building.  Now… before you say what almost everyone else notes…yes, it will feel like your not working out.  That is correct, you are not breaking down tissue to the point that recovery is slow. The key is to stay at a low HR for longer periods of time (called aerobic training).  Fatique comes from depletion of oxygen stores in the muscle group…NOT, breaking down of muscle tissue with oxygen depletion (called anaerobic training).  Anaerobic training occurs at higher HR’s (80-85% of Max HR).  That should be done sparingly.  And rest (even if you feel you don’t need it) should follow.  Continuing to train after aerobic training is usually when injuries occure. What your orignal standard for effort (i.e., HR) for constant activity ratio? Don’t know — how to measure this? At rest it’s 47/48.

This has nothing to do with resting HR.  What I’m describing is a standard to determine improvement.  Improvement comes with increasing intensity with less effort.  For example,  Run a 1 mile course and note the time and your average HR (note: you need a HRM – if you don’t have, you need to get one).  Of course, any distance besides 1 mile can be choosen – longer distance benchmarks usually require longer running courses. This course needs to be on a track (preferably an indoor track) or in any enviroment that is CONSTANT (both in distance, location, ran at same time of day, temperature, wind, humidity etc.) Take the time ran and divide it by the Average HR for the distance ran.  This is the ratio I described. As you improve you will be able to run the same distance with a faster time AND WITH A LOWER AVERAGE HR.  Without the lower average HR for same constant distance, you are not improving regardless of your run time.  The key is to run efficiently not just fast.  Efficiency in running skills are determined by how large of an aerobic base you have.  How fast you run is determined by how much pain (and how fast you can recover) you can endure.  Eventually, you will find that base building is the key… not how much anaerobic (high HR) workout you can endure.  No pain, no gain training is a fallacy. This method can be used for swimming, biking or any aerobic sport.   If you want to build up to faster and better runs… you need to learn the value of rest.  Most improvement occurs with recovery.  Recovery is the least understood and most underestimated part of training. Noted. Thanks Joe. Robin

Hope this helps… BTW, efficiency of aerobic capacity is much more crucial for multi-sport and endurance sport athletes. Joe Moya

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Roger, how are those sphicter muscles after Bill fucked you?

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Roger, how are those sphicter muscles after Bill fucked you?

Terribly sore.   And yours? Roger.

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The stillpoint. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’ve obviously missed the point of yoga. Which is, ecce?

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Hope this helps… BTW, efficiency of aerobic capacity is much more crucial for multi-sport and endurance sport athletes.

Thanks Joe for the useful info. Looking at getting a HR monitor now … :O) Cheers Robin

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