Run Run Away

Question:

Thanks, I appreciate the information and clarification. Dot

Response:

Are these regularly scheduled ones, like weekly, in cities where people live? or maybe a weekend a month where people would travel to a location for training? or coaches go to locations? or …?

For AIDS Marathon, there were weekly long runs on weekends, the rest of the training (two mid-week maintenance runs) we were expected to do on our own. TNT schedule is:  Tuesday and Thursday morning or evening coach’s workouts — vary in length and type, everything from tempo/speed/easy/ etc workouts on a track in San Francisco.  Saturday long(er) runs are all over the place, you get information where and when the meeting place is each week. Does TNT only refer to leukemia? I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that it was any of the health organizations. From my limited

TNT is specifically for Leukemia and Lymphoma society.  There are other organizations/programs for other causes/health orgs. perspective and comments I’ve seen here, I think I’d expect the ones that had training runs of at least 26 miles to look better at the end since they did their TOL (time on legs) training.

Exactly.  The people from the program that emphsized (dare I say required) walk breaks and went up to 26 miles in training I thought produced more happy finishers. — Asya Kamsky "San Francisco isn’t what it used to be, and it never was." — Herb Caen

Response:

Asya, Thanks. I was sure there was somebody out there in r.r land that had done these. Your explanation helps a lot. (questions embedded) I did the Honolulu marathon last year training with the AIDS Marathon program.  They use the Galloway method and the "pace" of the different training groups ranged from 7 minnute miles (in training) to 17 minute miles.   The run-walk ratios ranged from run 8/walk 1 to run 1/walk 3. There were a lot of clinics for novice runners and coaches available to help with any kind of problem.  I think that’s the real value of the program, as well as the comraderie of other novice or slow runners for those of us who would otherwise feel quite out of place at a "real" marathon.

Are these regularly scheduled ones, like weekly, in cities where people live? or maybe a weekend a month where people would travel to a location for training? or coaches go to locations? or …? I’ve just signed up with TNT for my second marathon.  They are not Galloway-devotees from what I saw in the training information, and train people to run the entire marathon.  Their longest training run seems to be either 18 or 20 miles (Galloway/AIDS program did 20, 23 and 26 all before the real marathon) and frankly, in Honolulu I thought the people from my program looked a lot more chipper at the end than many TNT folks, but then plural of anecdote isn’t data.

Does TNT only refer to leukemia? I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that it was any of the health organizations. From my limited perspective and comments I’ve seen here, I think I’d expect the ones that had training runs of at least 26 miles to look better at the end since they did their TOL (time on legs) training. I feel that I need a structured program to stick with the training and aligning myself with a good cause I not only do something good for someone else, but feel more committed to stick with it.

That sounds like a really good opportunity and plan. After Anchorage in June (the TNT marathon)

Oh, good. We should have two race reports from the Mayor’s Marathon then Somebody else said they were doing it with TNT. I will probably try to train on my own (or with the SFRRA or with a coach) for the Tucson marathon.   No more warm weather marathons for me Hope that helps, and I’d be happy to answer any other questions.

yes, thanks. Dot

Response:

For curiosity, does the TNT program train the participants to run the marathon if they are capable of it at their present fitness stage, run/walk for most, and walk for some or is it all run/walk with various percents of running depending on their capabilities? Quite honestly, I’m not sure of all the TNT details either, though I have received some literature from them for various events these past couple of years. Thanks. Where’s Rob Carr when we need him. Actually, I don’t think I’ve seen a post from him for several months. I think he had done two for Team Diabetes. And Laurie sounds like she’s done one and I’m sure there are more. Maybe someone who’s actually participated can shed some light.

I did the Honolulu marathon last year training with the AIDS Marathon program.  They use the Galloway method and the "pace" of the different training groups ranged from 7 minnute miles (in training) to 17 minute miles.   The run-walk ratios ranged from run 8/walk 1 to run 1/walk 3. There were a lot of clinics for novice runners and coaches available to help with any kind of problem.  I think that’s the real value of the program, as well as the comraderie of other novice or slow runners for those of us who would otherwise feel quite out of place at a "real" marathon. I’ve just signed up with TNT for my second marathon.  They are not Galloway-devotees from what I saw in the training information, and train people to run the entire marathon.  Their longest training run seems to be either 18 or 20 miles (Galloway/AIDS program did 20, 23 and 26 all before the real marathon) and frankly, in Honolulu I thought the people from my program looked a lot more chipper at the end than many TNT folks, but then plural of anecdote isn’t data. I feel that I need a structured program to stick with the training and aligning myself with a good cause I not only do something good for someone else, but feel more committed to stick with it. After Anchorage in June (the TNT marathon) I will probably try to train on my own (or with the SFRRA or with a coach) for the Tucson marathon.   No more warm weather marathons for me Hope that helps, and I’d be happy to answer any other questions. — Asya Kamsky "San Francisco isn’t what it used to be, and it never was." — Herb Caen

Response:

Layne,

Hi, Ozzie, This was a musing of mine almost to the date.  It was written 1/24/99.  Sam replied and then I replied back to him as I looked at myself. I follow Susan Scott’s:  All conversations are with myself; they just happen to involve other people most of the time.

[good reading snipped] I guess that my questions were good examples of "there are no simple answers only simple questions." Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I can understand having a cutoff point for practical as well as health issues. It would be nice if people ran events within their abilities but one of the most rewarding things I’ve found about running is that my initial, self-imposed limits were not really my actual limits. Stretching one’s self is a good thing – within realistic expectations, IMHO (as you said, "Reality always wins."). I have secret (well, not anymore) aspirations of running the Jacksonville marathon in 2003. If I can’t make the time cutoff, then I see two choices: 1) I need to back up and train some more for 2004, or 2) I don’t have the physical/mental resources to run a marathon and will be very happy running shorter events. At this point in my running, #2 isn’t a viable option but next year will tell. Also, it’s my not so humble opinion that the work most social agencies do is well worth them gaining funds at my expense of not running an event. Naturally, I’d rather run the event AND raise funds. This thread has caused me to think about getting more involved with the local running club. Thanks, Layne

Response:

www.teamintraining.org Appears to be specific to the Leukemia/Lymphoma Society – not fundraisers in general.

Response:

as in running the answer is to each his own ,,, some view it as a test others view marathons as a long run ( a very long one). When i started down the path of marathoning it was something to do.Later it  morphed into ‘finishing the race but not feeling as bad as the last race’. Finally it came to ‘can i do the distance in a time frame’. Now when i run the wheels of my mind turn to ultrathons or tri-thons. In trying to look to the future i will snd where i  started as something to do =) plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped Layne’s and Ozzie’s thoughts, fascinating though they were! My question is even simpler – in the push for better times are marathon runners being ‘encouraged’ to run outside their natural framework of ability?  I was in Ethiopia once, saw the boys who herd the cattle running and they do run for tens of miles most days, just for fun and because they all know they could be the next Ethiopian runner who beats the world.  But they run so slowly by our standards …  In his post Ozzie said he saw runners coming in after four or five hours, still feeling pretty good – well why not?  If we all run at our natural pace that’s probably where most of us would finish.  Is marathoning (which I’ll probably never do, so this is written in a spirit of total ignorance and awe) a way to test what your body can do or a series of tests that you must complete to finish the race? K — Choosing between Scylla and Charybdis?  No contest! http://www.charybdis.freeserve.co.uk @news.ixpres.com… Layne, This was a musing of mine almost to the date.  It was written 1/24/99. Sam replied and then I replied back to him as I looked at myself. I follow Susan Scott’s:  All conversations are with myself; they just happen to involve other people most of the time. Ozzie Is There A Shadow Side to Marathoning? I don’t know if that is the right question, but there are many questions being raised in my mind from people with whom I have spoken and from my experience at the RnR in ‘98 and other marathons. This year at the RnR there will be a 7 hour cut off.  If marathoners don’t reach the halfway within a certain time, those marathoners will finish at the half marathon distance.  I am pleased that the city and Elite Racing have taken this position.  For whatever reason, I see it as a positive step in the care and support of the well being of Marathoners.  The health and safety of Marathoners being first and foremost in the minds of those putting on the marathon. I salute the heroism, tenacity and will to reach a goal by many of the individuals who have run/walked the marathon for TnT, Joints In Motion, Cancer Society and other charitable organizations. At the same time, I have concern for these marathoners who push their bodies to finish at any cost. Probably my question is: Does the vested interest of raising funds for charitable organizations influenced by group think and peer pressure go against the Hippocratic oath of "Do No Harm?" Help me understand? Are there pressures to raise the funds to attend the marathon?  Are there pressures not addressed to complete the marathon no matter what? Is the marathon, an inner journey of the individual to explore themselves and what is possible, being exploited?  Are good intentions and lofty purposes of charitable  organizations – made up of people no different than you or I – being compromised  by forgetting to look at their core values and what they stand for? If I know what you stand for, I also know what you won’t stand for. What is the shadow side of marathoning?  We are seeing what the shadow side of the Olympics looks like as more information comes out in the IOC decision making process.  If we can’t talk about the shadow side of vested interest over individual well being, it will remain unconscious until it is thrown in our face.  I only have to think of the Emperor’s Clothes or the Star Wars Trilogy. We’re back to "Reality always wins.  Our only job is to get it touch with it." So all I am saying is:  Help me understand.  Is it only me?  Do others of you on your marathon path see anything that raises questions about what is happening?  Do others of you who stand on the sidelines cheering on others have any of these thoughts and feelings of concern? Wandering minds want to know.  And what did you think about on your run today? Sam’s replies to a number of my queries and observations: #1         I am not sure that the cut off is in place as much for the safety of the runners as it is in parade permits and road closures. No city wants to have some roads tied up all day even if it is a Sunday. #2         Not sure that marathoners are finishing at any cost.  I recently saw the runners at Marine Corps who were finishing from 4 to 5:15 run time and they did not look too bad, they were finishing under their own power and looking good after the race.  This was a particularly warm day as well. #3         First, to my knowledge only doctors take the Hippocratic oath and not all of them even do that anymore (a doc’s wife once told me only about 50% take it).  So I do not think it applies.         Also, how much harms does a marathon do a healthy person? Statistically, I am betting that the answer is none. #4         I did TNT in 1995.  There was no pressure from LSA, just support.  Hearing a lot of runners talk there was no pressure to finish the marathon from LSA workers.  The talk was all about having a good time and running for the person you were "connected" to (a patient).         I recently had a friend raising $$$ for Arthritis and there was no pressure to finish the marathon and really no pressure to raise the money except that she had to raise how much ever money to go to Dublin.  However, if she did not raise all the money she either did not go or had to pay the difference. Ozzie said: Is the marathon, an inner journey of the individual to explore themselves and what is possible, being exploited?  Are good intentions and lofty purposes of charitable  organizations – made up of people no different than you or I – being compromised  by forgetting to look at their core values and what they stand for? Sam replied:         Not that I have noticed…. Ozzie said: If I know what you stand for, I also know what you won’t stand for. What is the shadow side of marathoning?  We are seeing what the shadow side of the Olympics looks like as more information comes out in the IOC decision making process.  If we can’t talk about the shadow side of vested interest over individual well being, it will remain unconscious until it is thrown in our face.  I only have to think of the Emperor’s Clothes or the Star Wars Trilogy. We’re back to "Reality always wins.  Our only job is to get it touch with it." Sam replied:         Comparing marathoning to the IOC scandal is a bit of stretch in my mind….The charities offer people a chance to train together and perhaps run in a marathon while helping people.  Many of these people would run a marathon regardless so there is no coercion.  The IOC on the other hand…… Ozzie said: So all I am saying is:  Help me understand.  Is it only me?  Do others of you on the your marathon path see anything that raises questions about what is happening?  Do others of you who stand on the sidelines cheering on others have any of these thoughts and feelings of concern? Sam replied:         No         Rarely (sometimes I see people who look in not so good shape). And I responded to Sam: Sam, I appreciate your thoughtful reply and perspective in answering my questions. I have held some of my assumptions based on my perceptions up to the scrutiny of those who read my post.  I want to see if my perceptions are correct or incorrect.  If so,  how correct or incorrect are my assumptions based on my perceptions. Your insights, Sam, have been helpful regarding some of my assumptions.  I am reflecting on my perceptions of what I’ve seen  and heard.  I raised these questions so that those  with better insight, wisdom, experience and historical perspective can look to see if vested interests are in any way clouding reality. I’m attempting to get in touch with reality. An example of vested interest is the fact that the judicial system, penal system, legal system rely on the existence of the criminal.  Doctors need sick people.  Therapists need patients. Coaches need people to coach. Teachers need students.  Shoe companies,and all expo vendors need runners. I need rec.running to see if my ideas make sense to other runners. So I come round to the Buddhist view of Interconnectedness: we’re all somehow interconnected with the rest of the universe.  The tendency is to be anthropocentric, forgetting that we are truly already in outer space. It’s back to the culture.  When one is in a culture with its assumptions, ideas, mental models, creativity, views, judgments, thoughts, philosophy and world perspective; many artifacts of the culture are transparent to those within the culture.   People still see yellow Yield signs 12 years after they’ve been changed to meet international signage specifications. Americans see the

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Response:

Not being an "anti-TNT’er" (I know you’re searching for the right term here), all I can say is that there seems to be a perception on some occasions that TNT’ers take up space that would otherwise be used for "normal" folks at sold-out events…and the perception extends to the ability of most of the TNT’ers, or lack thereof.  My own personal perception is only skewed by posts such as this from r.r. in May of 1999:

[scary post snipped - Carsten seemed to use the X-NO-ARCHIVE directive. Did he ever come back?] TNT has a noble cause, and certainly carries out a worthy effort, but I’m not sure those that get involved in it are served best long term…but that is my opinion, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. That being said, my overarching point was focusing more on the noble intentions of TNT, and that there are real names and faces behind the effort involved.  

Sounds like a valid concern to me. I’ve also found out a little more info about TNT organizations that focus on bringing new folks to the sport. Some of the organizations seem to be very earnest and try to provide a safe environment to learn the proper techniques. Others (including one that was here in Jacksonville until they went out of busniess) are not so concerned about the sport or the people and are concerned about the bottom financial line. Thanks for all the info. I promise that this is it for me on the topic unless someone wants to discuss it. Layne

Response:

For curiosity, does the TNT program train the participants to run the marathon if they are capable of it at their present fitness stage, run/walk for most, and walk for some or is it all run/walk with various percents of running depending on their capabilities? Quite honestly, I’m not sure of all the TNT details either, though I have received some literature from them for various events these past couple of years.

Thanks. Where’s Rob Carr when we need him. Actually, I don’t think I’ve seen a post from him for several months. I think he had done two for Team Diabetes. And Laurie sounds like she’s done one and I’m sure there are more. Maybe someone who’s actually participated can shed some light. I have noticed the groups in training runs in SF, and it appeared they ran the gamut of abilities, though it did seem they catered to the novice end of the scale—by virtue of offering a "safe" atmosphere with which a newbie could use to get themselves into the sport, or perhaps give someone the incentive to take on a longer distance with some "coaching".  To what extent that coaching actually is, I cannot say as I’ve not participated with them.

That makes sense, and that’s what I would have expected. But I will make it a point to do at least one race this year with them.

Super! Dot

Response:

<snipped Layne’s and Ozzie’s thoughts, fascinating though they were! My question is even simpler – in the push for better times are marathon runners being ‘encouraged’ to run outside their natural framework of ability?  I was in Ethiopia once, saw the boys who herd the cattle running and they do run for tens of miles most days, just for fun and because they all know they could be the next Ethiopian runner who beats the world.  But they run so slowly by our standards …  In his post Ozzie said he saw runners coming in after four or five hours, still feeling pretty good – well why not?  If we all run at our natural pace that’s probably where most of us would finish.  Is marathoning (which I’ll probably never do, so this is written in a spirit of total ignorance and awe) a way to test what your body can do or a series of tests that you must complete to finish the race? K — Choosing between Scylla and Charybdis?  No contest! http://www.charybdis.freeserve.co.uk @news.ixpres.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Layne, This was a musing of mine almost to the date.  It was written 1/24/99. Sam replied and then I replied back to him as I looked at myself. I follow Susan Scott’s:  All conversations are with myself; they just happen to involve other people most of the time. Ozzie Is There A Shadow Side to Marathoning? I don’t know if that is the right question, but there are many questions being raised in my mind from people with whom I have spoken and from my experience at the RnR in ‘98 and other marathons. This year at the RnR there will be a 7 hour cut off.  If marathoners don’t reach the halfway within a certain time, those marathoners will finish at the half marathon distance.  I am pleased that the city and Elite Racing have taken this position.  For whatever reason, I see it as a positive step in the care and support of the well being of Marathoners.  The health and safety of Marathoners being first and foremost in the minds of those putting on the marathon. I salute the heroism, tenacity and will to reach a goal by many of the individuals who have run/walked the marathon for TnT, Joints In Motion, Cancer Society and other charitable organizations. At the same time, I have concern for these marathoners who push their bodies to finish at any cost. Probably my question is: Does the vested interest of raising funds for charitable organizations influenced by group think and peer pressure go against the Hippocratic oath of "Do No Harm?" Help me understand? Are there pressures to raise the funds to attend the marathon?  Are there pressures not addressed to complete the marathon no matter what? Is the marathon, an inner journey of the individual to explore themselves and what is possible, being exploited?  Are good intentions and lofty purposes of charitable  organizations – made up of people no different than you or I – being compromised  by forgetting to look at their core values and what they stand for? If I know what you stand for, I also know what you won’t stand for. What is the shadow side of marathoning?  We are seeing what the shadow side of the Olympics looks like as more information comes out in the IOC decision making process.  If we can’t talk about the shadow side of vested interest over individual well being, it will remain unconscious until it is thrown in our face.  I only have to think of the Emperor’s Clothes or the Star Wars Trilogy. We’re back to "Reality always wins.  Our only job is to get it touch with it." So all I am saying is:  Help me understand.  Is it only me?  Do others of you on your marathon path see anything that raises questions about what is happening?  Do others of you who stand on the sidelines cheering on others have any of these thoughts and feelings of concern? Wandering minds want to know.  And what did you think about on your run today? Sam’s replies to a number of my queries and observations: #1         I am not sure that the cut off is in place as much for the safety of the runners as it is in parade permits and road closures. No city wants to have some roads tied up all day even if it is a Sunday. #2         Not sure that marathoners are finishing at any cost.  I recently saw the runners at Marine Corps who were finishing from 4 to 5:15 run time and they did not look too bad, they were finishing under their own power and looking good after the race.  This was a particularly warm day as well. #3         First, to my knowledge only doctors take the Hippocratic oath and not all of them even do that anymore (a doc’s wife once told me only about 50% take it).  So I do not think it applies.         Also, how much harms does a marathon do a healthy person? Statistically, I am betting that the answer is none. #4         I did TNT in 1995.  There was no pressure from LSA, just support.  Hearing a lot of runners talk there was no pressure to finish the marathon from LSA workers.  The talk was all about having a good time and running for the person you were "connected" to (a patient).         I recently had a friend raising $$$ for Arthritis and there was no pressure to finish the marathon and really no pressure to raise the money except that she had to raise how much ever money to go to Dublin.  However, if she did not raise all the money she either did not go or had to pay the difference. Ozzie said: Is the marathon, an inner journey of the individual to explore themselves and what is possible, being exploited?  Are good intentions and lofty purposes of charitable  organizations – made up of people no different than you or I – being compromised  by forgetting to look at their core values and what they stand for? Sam replied:         Not that I have noticed…. Ozzie said: If I know what you stand for, I also know what you won’t stand for. What is the shadow side of marathoning?  We are seeing what the shadow side of the Olympics looks like as more information comes out in the IOC decision making process.  If we can’t talk about the shadow side of vested interest over individual well being, it will remain unconscious until it is thrown in our face.  I only have to think of the Emperor’s Clothes or the Star Wars Trilogy. We’re back to "Reality always wins.  Our only job is to get it touch with it." Sam replied:         Comparing marathoning to the IOC scandal is a bit of stretch in my mind….The charities offer people a chance to train together and perhaps run in a marathon while helping people.  Many of these people would run a marathon regardless so there is no coercion.  The IOC on the other hand…… Ozzie said: So all I am saying is:  Help me understand.  Is it only me?  Do others of you on the your marathon path see anything that raises questions about what is happening?  Do others of you who stand on the sidelines cheering on others have any of these thoughts and feelings of concern? Sam replied:         No         Rarely (sometimes I see people who look in not so good shape). And I responded to Sam: Sam, I appreciate your thoughtful reply and perspective in answering my questions. I have held some of my assumptions based on my perceptions up to the scrutiny of those who read my post.  I want to see if my perceptions are correct or incorrect.  If so,  how correct or incorrect are my assumptions based on my perceptions. Your insights, Sam, have been helpful regarding some of my assumptions.  I am reflecting on my perceptions of what I’ve seen  and heard.  I raised these questions so that those  with better insight, wisdom, experience and historical perspective can look to see if vested interests are in any way clouding reality. I’m attempting to get in touch with reality. An example of vested interest is the fact that the judicial system, penal system, legal system rely on the existence of the criminal.  Doctors need sick people.  Therapists need patients. Coaches need people to coach. Teachers need students.  Shoe companies,and all expo vendors need runners. I need rec.running to see if my ideas make sense to other runners. So I come round to the Buddhist view of Interconnectedness: we’re all somehow interconnected with the rest of the universe.  The tendency is to be anthropocentric, forgetting that we are truly already in outer space. It’s back to the culture.  When one is in a culture with its assumptions, ideas, mental models, creativity, views, judgments, thoughts, philosophy and world perspective; many artifacts of the culture are transparent to those within the culture.   People still see yellow Yield signs 12 years after they’ve been changed to meet international signage specifications. Americans see the English driving on the "wrong" side of the street.  My Aussie wife when she first came to New York asking to be knocked up around 6 AM. As I get deeper into this, I realize that humor has left me for the moment and my writing is getting as heavy and thick as Gorilla Arm Pit Odor.  So with that, I close thinking: 1. What is my shadow? 2. What are the real questions which need to be addressed? 3. Relax, breathe, focus, smile. 4. Can 3 days without running because of a cold have that much effect       on my thinking? 5. I miss Madeleine Page’s pointed pin and pen of poignant perceptions piercing precisely the pedagogical pomposity I can create. 6. I had a great walk with my wife this morning as we both battle our colds. 7. I appreciate Sam Callan. — In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html

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Response:

Hi, Jennifer, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Scoffed," is perhaps an example of a common lament in USENET, whereby someone sets up a strawman then knocks it down. i.e. Others scoffed my idea but I think…. (Others? …  Who?) The friction between TNT (team in training) runners and non-TNT runners, if existing at all, is principally a supply demand issue. By and large, TNT is a successful charitable effort and a TNT runner looks and acts pretty much like anyone else. The following article is illustrative however of the supply/demand issue: http://www.coolrunning.com/doncol/don63001.htm

Thanks for the URL. The article did clear up some things for me. Perhaps it’s time for the organization of running events to change instead of having each of the two camps try to overwhelm the other. Perhaps I’ll see what I can do around here. Whoops, sorry about the smiley. Thanks, Layne

Response:

To get back to my confusion, is there a perception among the anti-TNT folks (that’s not the right term but I can’t think of another one) that running could become too popular?

Not being an "anti-TNT’er" (I know you’re searching for the right term here), all I can say is that there seems to be a perception on some occasions that TNT’ers take up space that would otherwise be used for "normal" folks at sold-out events…and the perception extends to the ability of most of the TNT’ers, or lack thereof.  My own personal perception is only skewed by posts such as this from r.r. in May of 1999:

: Hello, : I am new to the group, and new to distance running. I am considering the : Team in Training program for marathons. Next one is Honolulu, Dec. 12th. : Anyone else have experience with the Team in Training program? : Also, any encouragement for a first timer would be greatly appreciated!! : Thankyou, Carsten TNT has a noble cause, and certainly carries out a worthy effort, but I’m not sure those that get involved in it are served best long term…but that is my opinion, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. That being said, my overarching point was focusing more on the noble intentions of TNT, and that there are real names and faces behind the effort involved.   PS. Mike, I’d like to apologize for piggybacking on your post. It really was a good one. I’ve changed the subject line so that we can keep the two separate.

No worries, Layne! Mike C

Response:

Hi, Dot and Mike, I hope that ya’ll don’t mind if I combined your messages. It helps me keep my confusion to a reasonable level. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Team in Training. It’s when some of the health organizations train people for a marathon and have them run it in exchange for the people raising money, I believe. I’m not familiar with the details of the program which is why I posted some of the questions I did. Some of the participants are survivors, some have relatives/friends that are survivors or have died because of the disease, and others just want to support the organization, and I suppose some just want the training. Some people perceive the time distribution as being slower and may scoff at it. But since these people could participate in other marathons as well, I’m not sure that TNT participation necessarily implies a slower overall distribution, but I don’t know. I think that anyone that completes a marathon should be congratulated – especially if they are having to overcome some challenges. Just completing the course may not be that much of a challenge for the front runners, but the slower ones are out there for a long time.

Ah, thank you. Since I don’t get out much, I hadn’t heard of them. More below. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Aside from what I said in my response to Mike C (I’m claustrophobic around crowds of people), the reason I was wondering about it on the Anchorage marathon, is that my 5-mi times (and what I think I could do a 1/2 in when I get that far, and wish times (5-6hrs) for ‘thon) could have put me in top 5 people in age group (about 10-15 people iirc) for the 5-miler (and mid pack on the longer distances). As you know, I’m normally (right now) a rear-ender, hope I can keep the back of the pack in sight, can I make the cutoff time. And this is a state championship. That’s what caused me to try to figure out what was going on. I looked first at the course, which is not flat and fast, but doesn’t have that many hills in it. Then I noticed 2/3 of the folks were TNT from out of state. And they could have had trouble sleeping with our sun that time of year. And I wasn’t sure if the TNT was accounting for the slow time distributions or not. The Fall Equinox Marathon in Fbks has a similar time (but a little faster) distribution, but they definitely have hills in it (1500 ft in a few miles) and probably near 3000 total. That’s why I asked on r.r trying to understand what might be underlying what I perceived as the slow time distribution. Dot

Makes sense to me. Although, I’m not enlightened enough to really appreciate the idea of a "fun" marathon. While I realize that analogies are bound to have inaccuracies, could one say that there is a relation between the "fun" 5Ks and the TNT marathons (or than scale of effort)? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For curiosity, does the TNT program train the participants to run the marathon if they are capable of it at their present fitness stage, run/walk for most, and walk for some or is it all run/walk with various percents of running depending on their capabilities? Quite honestly, I’m not sure of all the TNT details either, though I have received some literature from them for various events these past couple of years. My mentioning of folks "scoffing" at some of the participants was due mainly to a few of the threads in the past year or so referring to either sold out marathons or talking about runners taking on the marathon (or Ironman tri distance) right out of the chute and then dropping the sport shortly thereafter because they burned out too fast or overtrained or injured themselves.

Hmm, I’m definitely a little confused here (not about taking runners out too early – that seems to be a real danger). I can understand the frustration of wanting to participate in an event but not getting a space (the Olympic torch relay comes to mind – I had nominated my wife). However, if an event is known to involve TNT folks, shouldn’t that be a notice that the event will have a "fun/benefit" component whether there is a limit or not? I have noticed the groups in training runs in SF, and it appeared they ran the gamut of abilities, though it did seem they catered to the novice end of the scale—by virtue of offering a "safe" atmosphere with which a newbie could use to get themselves into the sport, or perhaps give someone the incentive to take on a longer distance with some "coaching".  To what extent that coaching actually is, I cannot say as I’ve not participated with them. But I will make it a point to do at least one race this year with them. Mike C

I’d be interested in hearing what you think of the event after the fact. To get back to my confusion, is there a perception among the anti-TNT folks (that’s not the right term but I can’t think of another one) that running could become too popular? Several of the local events have become so popular that they have had to limit the number of participants. This turned into a good thing (in two instances) where the organizers developed two events to replace each of the oversubscribed ones – one was an elite race right before the thundering herd event and the other was to start the elite folks a short time before the herd. I really enjoyed the elite race before my event since I could watch. I suppose that this wouldn’t be practical for a marathon unless they were held on different days. On the surface, the TNT sounds like an interesting idea to get people into running, to pay homage to someone who can’t participate, or to recognize a societal/medical problem. The injury aspects concern me a bit but it seems to me that the participants should be able to make that call (yeah, I know, that’s a naive outlook but I’m just starting to get a handle on it). Thanks very much, Layne PS. Mike, I’d like to apologize for piggybacking on your post. It really was a good one. I’ve changed the subject line so that we can keep the two separate.

Response:

I am a new lurker.  What is TNT and why would it be scoffed?

"Scoffed," is perhaps an example of a common lament in USENET, whereby someone sets up a strawman then knocks it down. i.e. Others scoffed my idea but I think…. (Others? …  Who?) The friction between TNT (team in training) runners and non-TNT runners, if existing at all, is principally a supply demand issue. By and large, TNT is a successful charitable effort and a TNT runner looks and acts pretty much like anyone else. The following article is illustrative however of the supply/demand issue: http://www.coolrunning.com/doncol/don63001.htm Jennifer

Response:

Hi, Mic, I am a new lurker.  What is TNT and why would it be scoffed? I’m not a new lurker but I am a running beginner and had the same questions. The second part of your question is particularly puzzling to me – no matter what TNT is.

Team in Training. It’s when some of the health organizations train people for a marathon and have them run it in exchange for the people raising money, I believe. I’m not familiar with the details of the program which is why I posted some of the questions I did. Some of the participants are survivors, some have relatives/friends that are survivors or have died because of the disease, and others just want to support the organization, and I suppose some just want the training. Some people perceive the time distribution as being slower and may scoff at it. But since these people could participate in other marathons as well, I’m not sure that TNT participation necessarily implies a slower overall distribution, but I don’t know. I think that anyone that completes a marathon should be congratulated – especially if they are having to overcome some challenges. Just completing the course may not be that much of a challenge for the front runners, but the slower ones are out there for a long time. Aside from what I said in my response to Mike C (I’m claustrophobic around crowds of people), the reason I was wondering about it on the Anchorage marathon, is that my 5-mi times (and what I think I could do a 1/2 in when I get that far, and wish times (5-6hrs) for ‘thon) could have put me in top 5 people in age group (about 10-15 people iirc) for the 5-miler (and mid pack on the longer distances). As you know, I’m normally (right now) a rear-ender, hope I can keep the back of the pack in sight, can I make the cutoff time. And this is a state championship. That’s what caused me to try to figure out what was going on. I looked first at the course, which is not flat and fast, but doesn’t have that many hills in it. Then I noticed 2/3 of the folks were TNT from out of state. And they could have had trouble sleeping with our sun that time of year. And I wasn’t sure if the TNT was accounting for the slow time distributions or not. The Fall Equinox Marathon in Fbks has a similar time (but a little faster) distribution, but they definitely have hills in it (1500 ft in a few miles) and probably near 3000 total. That’s why I asked on r.r trying to understand what might be underlying what I perceived as the slow time distribution. Dot

Response:

For curiosity, does the TNT program train the participants to run the marathon if they are capable of it at their present fitness stage, run/walk for most, and walk for some or is it all run/walk with various percents of running depending on their capabilities?

Quite honestly, I’m not sure of all the TNT details either, though I have received some literature from them for various events these past couple of years. My mentioning of folks "scoffing" at some of the participants was due mainly to a few of the threads in the past year or so referring to either sold out marathons or talking about runners taking on the marathon (or Ironman tri distance) right out of the chute and then dropping the sport shortly thereafter because they burned out too fast or overtrained or injured themselves. I have noticed the groups in training runs in SF, and it appeared they ran the gamut of abilities, though it did seem they catered to the novice end of the scale—by virtue of offering a "safe" atmosphere with which a newbie could use to get themselves into the sport, or perhaps give someone the incentive to take on a longer distance with some "coaching".  To what extent that coaching actually is, I cannot say as I’ve not participated with them. But I will make it a point to do at least one race this year with them. Mike C

Response:

<touching story snipped This story touched me like nothing has since 9/11, and I wanted to pass it along.

Mike, That’s a great story! Thanks for sharing. Up here, we usually have a couple Make-A-Wish Foundation kids at the start of the Iditarod Sled dog race (Anchorage to Nome). And the mushers that have had the pleasure of having one of these kids on their sled always want another one the next year. And last year the International Winter Special Olympics were here with some truly amazing stories – not to be confused with the "other" olympics that are being held in Salt Lake this year. And I think they even get the press coverage right on the Special Olympics I also believe that TNT is a great program and provides a win-win situation for the organization involved as well as the folks that now have a better fitness level and may take it to a higher level, now that they are started and/or progressing. My question earlier about the %TNT/time distribution in a race was in the context of me getting claustrophobic among thousands of people crunched on a bike path (my town has fewer people than this race) where I might be more toward middle of pack instead of behind the pack (notice I didn’t say "back-of-the-pack" . And whether this was something that I should consider in race selection if I was considering a lower-48 marathon. Some friends had invited me with them when they do lower-48 ‘thon (not a city one), but I’m not anywhere near being able to do that – and I am definitely more interested in trails, hills, distance. For curiosity, does the TNT program train the participants to run the marathon if they are capable of it at their present fitness stage, run/walk for most, and walk for some or is it all run/walk with various percents of running depending on their capabilities? I’m just curious about the actual program and whether they tailor training for people of different fitnesses and capabilities. BTW, thanks for sending the cold weather – temperatures have dropped steadily since last weekend and last night was -8F. And it might snow tonight so I can use my snowshoes again. Dot

Response:

Hi, Mic, I am a new lurker.  What is TNT and why would it be scoffed?

I’m not a new lurker but I am a running beginner and had the same questions. The second part of your question is particularly puzzling to me – no matter what TNT is. Thanks for asking it. Layne

Response:

I am a new lurker.  What is TNT and why would it be scoffed?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, Hi! Did TNT 4 yrs ago for Chicago. I will get a picture up of myself and the little girl I ran in honor of. ( at Laynes RR scrapbook)  She is now in remission but at the time undergoing Chemo and a sick sick little girl.  Got a great team picture too ( Indiana) with some of the guys doing a 3 hour marathon.  They had either a family or child with the disease or deceased.  I took a lot of slack for it here at RR, but  I could have cared less. What is important to me is not influenced by anyone. I met two guys from Indiana that ran religiously for TNT( for personal reasons) that could run a marathon faster than the speed of light. Also on page of Runners World/Feb issue, Glen King has Leukemia, in remission and now heavily involved with TNT and ran his first marathon for TNT. Lost my brothers wife to this disease just one and half years ago. Struck in March, we buried her in May. I just got done reading on "invisible disabilities" Many us have them and when people look at you they think what could possibly be wrong with you HA! Don’t need a limp or a limb gone to be disabled. It is how we deal with them that is important. I think Lance showed the world that!! I think the folks with arthritis/RA, running these Marathons or walking them is quite spectacular. Ron of RR is a coach of Exec. for Joints in Motion. Bet he has some great stories/ I see on a daily basis how silly my woes are……. Laurie I saw this story on the news last night, and it was one of those that makes you think that whatever problems we might have, they pale in comparison to real life. Louie Bonpua, 37, died this past Tuesday morning.  Louie had leukemia, diagnosed five years ago.  He carried the Olympic torch in San Francisco last Saturday. He was heavily involved in the TNT program, and last year did the Wildflower and Alcatraz triathlons, among others, and finally Ironman Canada, which he completed in 16:56. He was looking forward to his carrying the torch, but a few days before he suddenly took a turn for the worse and was admitted to the hospital. Determined to fulfill his dream of holding the torch high, he did so, walking the entire length of his segment while in apparently excruciating pain in his legs.  The smile he had was ear-to-ear, his eyes lit up brighter than any flame could be, and he seemed on top of the world. Later on Saturday, he slipped into a coma from which he never awoke. Many of us scoff or look down at the TNT’ers for a variety of reasons. For one, I will never do that again.  And I will make sure that at least one event I do this year will have some ties to that program. For more information on an amazing guy most of us have never heard of, go to http://www.shrimplouie.com. This story touched me like nothing has since 9/11, and I wanted to pass it along. Mike C

Response:

Mike, Hi! Did TNT 4 yrs ago for Chicago. I will get a picture up of myself and the little girl I ran in honor of. ( at Laynes RR scrapbook)  She is now in remission but at the time undergoing Chemo and a sick sick little girl.  Got a great team picture too ( Indiana) with some of the guys doing a 3 hour marathon.  They had either a family or child with the disease or deceased.  I took a lot of slack for it here at RR, but  I could have cared less. What is important to me is not influenced by anyone. I met two guys from Indiana that ran religiously for TNT( for personal reasons) that could run a marathon faster than the speed of light. Also on page of Runners World/Feb issue, Glen King has Leukemia, in remission and now heavily involved with TNT and ran his first marathon for TNT. Lost my brothers wife to this disease just one and half years ago. Struck in March, we buried her in May. I just got done reading on "invisible disabilities" Many us have them and when people look at you they think what could possibly be wrong with you HA! Don’t need a limp or a limb gone to be disabled. It is how we deal with them that is important. I think Lance showed the world that!! I think the folks with arthritis/RA, running these Marathons or walking them is quite spectacular. Ron of RR is a coach of Exec. for Joints in Motion. Bet he has some great stories/ I see on a daily basis how silly my woes are……. Laurie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw this story on the news last night, and it was one of those that makes you think that whatever problems we might have, they pale in comparison to real life. Louie Bonpua, 37, died this past Tuesday morning.  Louie had leukemia, diagnosed five years ago.  He carried the Olympic torch in San Francisco last Saturday. He was heavily involved in the TNT program, and last year did the Wildflower and Alcatraz triathlons, among others, and finally Ironman Canada, which he completed in 16:56. He was looking forward to his carrying the torch, but a few days before he suddenly took a turn for the worse and was admitted to the hospital. Determined to fulfill his dream of holding the torch high, he did so, walking the entire length of his segment while in apparently excruciating pain in his legs.  The smile he had was ear-to-ear, his eyes lit up brighter than any flame could be, and he seemed on top of the world. Later on Saturday, he slipped into a coma from which he never awoke. Many of us scoff or look down at the TNT’ers for a variety of reasons. For one, I will never do that again.  And I will make sure that at least one event I do this year will have some ties to that program. For more information on an amazing guy most of us have never heard of, go to http://www.shrimplouie.com. This story touched me like nothing has since 9/11, and I wanted to pass it along. Mike C

Response:

I saw this story on the news last night, and it was one of those that makes you think that whatever problems we might have, they pale in comparison to real life. Louie Bonpua, 37, died this past Tuesday morning.  Louie had leukemia, diagnosed five years ago.  He carried the Olympic torch in San Francisco last Saturday. He was heavily involved in the TNT program, and last year did the Wildflower and Alcatraz triathlons, among others, and finally Ironman Canada, which he completed in 16:56. He was looking forward to his carrying the torch, but a few days before he suddenly took a turn for the worse and was admitted to the hospital. Determined to fulfill his dream of holding the torch high, he did so, walking the entire length of his segment while in apparently excruciating pain in his legs.  The smile he had was ear-to-ear, his eyes lit up brighter than any flame could be, and he seemed on top of the world. Later on Saturday, he slipped into a coma from which he never awoke. Many of us scoff or look down at the TNT’ers for a variety of reasons.  For one, I will never do that again.  And I will make sure that at least one event I do this year will have some ties to that program. For more information on an amazing guy most of us have never heard of, go to http://www.shrimplouie.com. This story touched me like nothing has since 9/11, and I wanted to pass it along. Mike C

Response: