Run Run Away

Question:

As Doug pointed out in the other thread, you’re probably going to have even more success with this in a longer race, like the upcoming Hot Chocolate (15k).

Distance is important but the terrain is even more important. If the race is a 10k and first 3 miles is downhill and the second three is uphill you need to run negative in effort not necessarily on the clock. The Boston is marathon is very hard to run negative on the clock. — Doug Freese "Caveat Lector"

Response:

As Doug pointed out in the other thread, you’re probably going to have even more success with this in a longer race, like the upcoming Hot Chocolate (15k). Distance is important but the terrain is even more important. If the race is a 10k and first 3 miles is downhill and the second three is uphill you need to run negative in effort not necessarily on the clock.

This is especially applicable to central park. The Hot Chocolate will start on the upper transverse — and from there, it’s uphill in all directions, and I think the first mile will be the same mile that he ran the slow split on in the 4 miler. I’d say he’d want to run the first mile 20 seconds slower than goal pace. He’ll be closer to on-pace at the 2 mile mark (mile 2 is downhill if the course goes CCW) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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I’d say he’d want to run the first

mile 20 seconds slower than goal pace. ___ 6:49/mile, 1:03:29 final time.  It was 27 degees F w/10mph winds.    Would love a top 10 finish in my AG and now that I’m 40 and out of that tough tough tough 30-39 AG….it’s possible.    Last year the 10th place person in my AG did 6:37/mile, 11th Place guy in my AG did 6:43/mile. My mindset going forward is 6:40/mile goal so I’m going to come out at a 7 min pace and take it from there.  This year I haven’t yet ran a race faster than I did last year and it would be nice to better myself at least once….I am sure some of you that cracked age milestones can relate to that kind of goal.  This just might be a race, a distance, wherein I improve over a year ago…. Andrew…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Coming off a 1 week break to deal with overtraining problems, and having only been back to it for 2 days, I was going to skip this race. But I got up this morning, observed the perfect weather outside (conditions about 45 degrees f, not too windy) and thought to myself — "if I ran today, this really will be my day". Could just sense that it was going to be good. I’d already registered, and my fiancee was in it, so I was going anyway. So I put on my race clothes and headed out. [] Last split: 6:11. Total time: 24:30. Half splits: 12:17/12:12 = 5 seconds negative. Average pace: 6:07.5 compared to 6:26 for the 5 miler. 4 mile PR and best race this year. Reflections: (1) The slow first mile appears to have helped, even in a fairly short race. (2) I think this decisvely proves that people like Bob Grumbine and Doug Freese who argued that complete rest before a race works well were right. I could actually feel this morning that I was ready to run fast, there’s no doubt that the rest had a major role in this race.  No speed work for 9 days, and the last week consisted of 2 easy runs the two days before the race, and some cross training on the elliptical. The biggest single training event in the month between the two events was the resting. Cheers and thanks for reading,

And thanks for sharing the results. It was especially nice to read the dual reports (you and Andrew) on the same race. Funny that it is so hard to hold back in that first mile. Thanks again for the reports.    Ed

Response:

Coming off a 1 week break to deal with overtraining problems, Awwww, did you get rust spots on the belt of your cute lil’ treadmill? Forget to lube it? (the treadmill you perverts). Did you hurtz your tender lil’ bunz? Awwww, poor realbitchy…

Had more to do with the twice weekly speedwork sessions. Coach says I need to cut back on speed work for a little while. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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Nice race Donovan!  Good to see it all come together.  It’s always a special feeling to run a PR and a good race – more so when it’s not entirely expected… I guess that some kind of taper helps for any race – and your enforced break seems to have done that. Anthony.

Response:

Nice race Andrew.  So – did your relative "neg split" feel easier/better/ different to your other "100% from the beginning" races?? Anthony.

Response:

Had more to do with the twice weekly speedwork sessions.

Treadmill jogger= Realbitchys speedwork. Coach says I need to cut back on speed work for a little while.

Tell your mommy to leave you alone.

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Had more to do with the twice weekly speedwork sessions. Treadmill jogger= Realbitchys speedwork.

Lying again. One of my weekly speed work sessions was on a track (outdoors). The other consisted of a group training session with my running club, usually outdoor hill repeats. Tell your mommy to leave you alone.

You’re a miserable lying piece of shit. — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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Treadmill jogger= Realbitchys speedwork. Lying again.

You are the one who likes jogging on his sissy lil’ treadmill. I bet you look so cute prancing around. One of my weekly speed work sessions was on a track (outdoors). The other consisted of a group training session with my running club,

It’s the only way you have any friends at all, huh? I feel for ya man… Tell your mommy to leave you alone.

Man, what DID that woman do to you? By your poor behavior I’d suspect bottles, diapers, and breast feeding were part of your daily routine right into your 40’s. You’re a miserable lying piece of shit.

Oh my! Abuse report sent! LOLOLOL

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So – did your relative "neg split" feel easier/better/ different to your other "100% from the beginning" races?? _____ To be honest I am really looking forward to a longer race, a 15K in 12 days to get a better personal measure/feeling of holding back and finishing strong.   My daily run’s a 9 miler so this 15K well models my training run, a run where I personally relative to holding back is that in the final 1/2 mile only one runner passed me (usually it’s more)…I did have the strength/energy to overtake him and I believe 4- 5 other runners ahead of me in the final 80 yards to the finish in an all out sprint : )   I’ll see my chipped time today however I’m sure 4-5 runners finished within a space of 3 or so seconds behind me (reflecting the all out sprint we were engaged in to the finish).  I did have plenty of energy to hold off and beat out these younger decent runners….C’mon…when you’re 40, you always feel good about holding off a twenty-something kid (LOL).    Overall I was relatively pleased, felt about 95% "spent", it was an "OK" race. I did note afterward how I did not feel compelled to hydrate at any water stations though…that was different.   I’m in a learning process but I think I’ll get there… Andrew…

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Coming off a 1 week break to deal with overtraining problems,

Awwww, did you get rust spots on the belt of your cute lil’ treadmill? Forget to lube it? (the treadmill you perverts). Did you hurtz your tender lil’ bunz? Awwww, poor realbitchy…

Response:

into a groove.   First split was 6:18…I am usually hitting that at about 6:12-14 so I get affirmation I’m not being such the "rabbit" (for me).  Just before the second split happy-go-lucky Donovan with one of his teammates zooms by and says Hello!   I tell him "Hey…and knowing he’s been injured and off his feet told him I was glad to see him racing"….but he was zooming rather well and I never saw him again..but I did hit my second split with 6:17 so I met the minimal requirement for achieving a neg split! Hoo-Ray For Me (Hey, it’s a start).  Preceding the 3rd mile split were a series of hills that got the best of me….split was 6:37.    However 4th split/finish looks like I clocked a 6:16 final mile..which would be another neg. split and my fast mile in this 4 miler.  

Some may dispute at the notion that a 6:16 in the final mile is a "negative split" when the splits are net positive — a net +18 (compared to about +50 at the Poland Spring) As Doug pointed out in the other thread, you’re probably going to have even more success with this in a longer race, like the upcoming Hot Chocolate (15k). Donovan asked me earlier in the week how I felt (time wise for this race) and I think I told him I should do about  6:22/mile average….and I believe that’s what I got….will know tomorrow.  

You actually said that your goal was 6:23 pace. You predicted 6:26-7 earlier in the week after <mumblingthat other race</. It’s also comparable with some of your Jan-March races this year,  so it looks like a you’d be within your rights scoring this one as a victory. flying"…and he was….it was amazing and I have never seen a guy make a leap like Donovan did today.  

I think I’m still riding the beginner gains curve. I’m happy with it all the same. Before this race….I would have said he has potential to do 6:12 maybe….but that’s about it.  

Your race prediction skills are pretty much spot on, as usual. 6:12 pace would have been a best performance for the year by 13 seconds in the 5-10k range, using Jack Daniels prediction formulas to compare race performances. I was hoping for 6:15 or better this race. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Donovan Rebbechi wrote Coming off a 1 week break to deal with overtraining problems, and having only been back to it for 2 days, I was going to skip this race.

<miscelaneous good stuff skipped Last split: 6:11. Total time: 24:30. Half splits: 12:17/12:12 = 5 seconds negative. Average pace: 6:07.5 compared to 6:26 for the 5 miler. 4 mile PR and best race this year. Reflections: (1) The slow first mile appears to have helped, even in a fairly short race.

Running the first mile slower than normal is one of the most successful strategies for running at 10K PR (unless you’re BK or something). (2) I think this decisvely proves that people like Bob Grumbine and Doug Freese who argued that complete rest before a race works well were right.

One week cutbacks work well, but given that you were talking "overtraining," something else might be at work here: Supercompensation.  You have a hard week or two at a training load that you would not be able to sustain for long (this is called overreaching), and then you have a very sharp cutback (as much as 85%) which can provide a sharp short-term gain in performance.   But the 1 week resting period does not work (for performance) without the high loading period that preceeds it.  There’s quite a bit of tapering research that suggests that just a 1-week static taper (no supercompensation effect) does not result in performance gain, put an exponential taper (drop 20% per week, for a total drop of 50%) over 2-3 week results in a 5K performance gain as much as 5-6%. If you have "Lore of Running, " see pp. 304-310. I could actually feel this morning that I was ready to run fast, there’s no doubt that the rest had a major role in this race.  No speed work for 9 days, and the last week consisted of 2 easy runs the two days before the race, and some cross training on the elliptical. The biggest single training event in the month between the two events was the resting.

It’s not just the amount of rest, but the type of training.  There is a 10-day/20-day cycle that started with the East Germans.  Hard for 10 days/ easy for 10 days.  And one of the keys here is that high lactate sessions require a long time to recover, so you try to run your last one of these 9-10 days from a race.  I don’t do 400’s with short rest within about 9 days of a race, and no hard workouts within 5 days, but short, quick speed (with enough rest to avoid lactate buildup) can be done as close as 3-4 days before a race. But any workout that involves the creation of much lactate also involves much muscle damage, and this you want to avoid close to a race. Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!"  –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

Response:

Same race, 4 Miler in Central Park….great sunny morning, knew it was a big race when I saw Paul Mwangi & a bunch of other elites lined up ahead of me.   Minutes before the race Joan Rivers (affiliated with one of the sponsors of the race) takes the stage with some other celebrities and she gives us about 2 minutes of jokes. zzzzzzz….I was more fascinated with her face as she’s known to only be second to Michael Jackson in the surgery department and that face….and yes…it does look completely (like plastic) strange close up.   OK, so we make it throught the typical festivities our NYC races sometimes take on and finally start the race.   I have had some great races in my NB 150s.   But they were beat, done, needed to be retired 25 miles ago.   But I love them, it was warm, I looked at them  fondly and endearingly (LOL) and wondered if I could eek out one more race in them.   I replaced them w/some Asiscs Gel Racer 5 flats…which are OK….but not even close to the "slipper"-like feel of NB 150s So I convinced myself they had one more race in them (I am sure we all do that)…and had them on.   I also determined I would try and ball strike exclusively the whole distance just for the challenge of it (no midsole striking).   Race starts and I’m trying to bridal my enthusiam and just relax into a groove.   First split was 6:18…I am usually hitting that at about 6:12-14 so I get affirmation I’m not being such the "rabbit" (for me).  Just before the second split happy-go-lucky Donovan with one of his teammates zooms by and says Hello!   I tell him "Hey…and knowing he’s been injured and off his feet told him I was glad to see him racing"….but he was zooming rather well and I never saw him again..but I did hit my second split with 6:17 so I met the minimal requirement for achieving a neg split! Hoo-Ray For Me  (Hey, it’s a start). Preceding the 3rd mile split were a series of hills that got the best of me….split was 6:37.    However 4th split/finish looks like I clocked a 6:16 final mile..which would be another neg. split and my fast mile in this 4 miler.   I will get my chipped finishing time tomorrow however I believe I did 25:27or8.   I thought about what lots of folks on this ng said about neg. splits at the start and in my initial 1-2 miles….simply tried to "ease back into a groove" and I was really feeling like I was having a farewell run in my trusty NB 150s hahaha…. Donovan asked me earlier in the week how I felt (time wise for this race) and I think I told him I should do about  6:22/mile average….and I believe that’s what I got….will know tomorrow.   It always amuses me how we runners can pretty much on target predict our times.   I’ve seen Donovan run in many a race….and this race though for him was dimensions beyond anything he’s done before.   Not being able to see him ahead of me despite having rolling hills and long views ahead….I knew in the race that Donovan was having the race of his life to date.   His racing team wears these offensive flourescent yellow/green singlets…but I could not spot him when I was in mile 3 and had 400-500 foot views…..and I just thought…"wow…that guy must be flying"…and he was….it was amazing and I have never seen a guy make a leap like Donovan did today.   Before this race….I would have said he has potential to do 6:12 maybe….but that’s about it.   Donovan gave a stunning performance for himself today….good for him.   Andrew….

Response:

Coming off a 1 week break to deal with overtraining problems, and having only been back to it for 2 days, I was going to skip this race. But I got up this morning, observed the perfect weather outside (conditions about 45 degrees f, not too windy) and thought to myself — "if I ran today, this really will be my day". Could just sense that it was going to be good. I’d already registered, and my fiancee was in it, so I was going anyway. So I put on my race clothes and headed out. One of the guys from my racing team who’s reasonably well matched with me was there. This guy’s one of the "older and wiser" types of runners. Had the most consistent splits in the tempo run we did 9 days ago (+- 1 sec). Background on this — October 26, I’d run a 5 miler in 32:12, splits 6:15,6:31, 6:34,6:42. So I badly wanted negative splits today. The plan was to match the projected time from the 5 miler in the first split and do 6:20 for the first mile. So went out very slowly, held myself back. Every man and his dog, it seemed, raced ahead of me in the first mile, though I overtook some in the second half of the first mile. I just ignored the noise and focused on maintaining an easy pace. Breathing rhythm 3-3-2. A bit like breathing every 6 steps except you inhale on alternate foot landings and it has a nice 4/4 rhythm. The first mile had a tough hill on it, so I ran it carefully.  The guy from my running club joined me, and we ran together to the first mile marker. First split: 6:20. I was feeling happy, almost like I’d won the race already. It really was my day. Kept the same pace/effort. My teammate and I continued to run together, sometimes swapping places. I knew I didn’t want to get too far out from him, so if I was ahead, I’d make sure he wasn’t too far behind. Greated Global near the end of mile 2. Second split: 5:57. That was a tad fast — I was starting to wonder if I’d get those negative splits. But I’d done that mile on the easy 3-3-2 breathing pattern, and was still feeling very good. So mile 3 began. This is where I wanted to make my "move". Mile 3 contained 3 hills, none of them are enormous hills, but it’s the toughest part of the course. I switched to 2-2 gear, and pushed hard, overtaking a lot of runners, especially up the hills. My teammate just took off at an incredible speed, I didn’t try to match it and let him go. Third split: 6:01. Slower than the second split, but considering the hills, this was by a long way the strongest of my three splits. Mile 4 was a long downhill. The plan: to hold myself together and finish. The downhill was on my side, I maybe made up a couple of places. There were a couple of runners who’d saved their big move for mile 4, and ran past me, but there were a few who were spent. A club member helped me near the finish by yelling some encouragement (I hope that doesn’t count as "assistance".) Last split: 6:11. Total time: 24:30. Half splits: 12:17/12:12 = 5 seconds negative. Average pace: 6:07.5 compared to 6:26 for the 5 miler. 4 mile PR and best race this year. Reflections: (1) The slow first mile appears to have helped, even in a fairly short race. (2) I think this decisvely proves that people like Bob Grumbine and Doug Freese who argued that complete rest before a race works well were right. I could actually feel this morning that I was ready to run fast, there’s no doubt that the rest had a major role in this race.  No speed work for 9 days, and the last week consisted of 2 easy runs the two days before the race, and some cross training on the elliptical. The biggest single training event in the month between the two events was the resting. Cheers and thanks for reading, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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