Run Run Away

Question:

Heck, I had all these symptoms even before I took up running.  Not only did I "feel heavy", I was heavy! Advancing age might even have had something to do with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip You need to be careful here.  The USATF Track and Field Coaching manual lists the following symtoms of unsatisfactory progress (this is specifically about peaking, but also applies to overtraining generally): frequent strains of minor injuries frequent colds or viruses persistent muscle or joint soreness loss of flexibility feeling heavy irritability depression tenseness difficulty sleeping snip Lyndon "Speed Kills.  It kills those that don’t have it" –Brooks Johnson

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel.        I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

Response:

[snipped] However, I’ve found that when my mileage approaches or goes over 30 mpw, I feel tired and probably overtrained I’ve never quite figured out what ‘overtrained’ is.  Could you fill me in?  If you’re going to increase miles and therefore physical stress you’ll feel tired. I’ve heard the ‘overtrained’ excuse used often when in fact the overtrained runner just means "I’m tired."

Reluctant as I am to agree with jenn <g, there certainly is an element of truth to what she says. Now, there really is a syndrome called "overtraining" (Lyndon lays it out clearly in his post but I suspect, as jenn does, that many people use that term when they’re simply tired, not over-trained. I’m tired right now. Beat up. But it’s Hell week. One last hard week before I taper. I did a half-Ironman Sunday, took Monday off, did a double Spin class Tuesday (2 hours hard), swam a mile yesterday followed by a 4 mile run. Today I’ll do a spin class and the run 6. Friday will be a 1.5 mile swim, Saturday a 13 run, and Sunday a 60 bike.   Hell, yes I’m tired. But I’m NOT over-trained. And experience tells me the difference. It’s temporary. That’s what a taper is all about. Now, if I wasn’t coming up to a race and I started showing the group of symptoms Lyndon outlines, I’d adjust accordingly. I’d slip in an easy week, a couple of days off,  and see how I felt. Knowing the difference comes with experience. If you’re going to achieve new running goals, you have to accept being tired. There’s no way to get there without pushing yourself beyond your present capabilities. But there are smart ways of doing it and there are dumb ways of doing it. You need to recognize those times when you do need to back off and rest, but not use it as an excuse. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman, Model Railroader, Gamer

Response:

How are you able to stay focused on your *goal* for 26 weeks??  

Here’s what works for me: My overall goal is to qualify for Boston. I’m about a year away from it right now. But every time I wonder whether I can skip a workout, I remind myself that passing will make Boston less likely to happen for me. Sometimes I skip the workout anyway. Can’t be fanatical. But the motivation works. After Boston I’ll shoot for sub-3, then 2:45 … — Brian P. Baresch Lawrence, Kansas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

Response:

How are you able to stay focused on your *goal* for 26 weeks?

Dunno.  Probably, the same way I graduated from University even though the goal of graduation was years from the first year.  Baby steps.  Also, it helps to have that running partner(s) that I suggested.  Shared pain. In the plan I outlined, there are several baby steps: 26 points of reference ( one each week) with success or failure possible. 8 or so races with success (goal time achieved) or failure (not). Stick with the weekly plan and I predict many PRs in the races. By the time week 26 has arrived, if you’ve hit most of your sub-goals your 4:40 will be easy.  And, what the hell, if you’ve missed your weekly mileage, or have a bad marathon day and miss your 4:40, then there’s always another marathon. Jennifer

Response:

[snipped] However, I’ve found that when my mileage approaches or goes over 30 mpw, I feel tired and probably overtrained I’ve never quite figured out what ‘overtrained’ is.  Could you fill me in?  If you’re going to increase miles and therefore physical stress you’ll feel tired. I’ve heard the ‘overtrained’ excuse used often when in fact the overtrained runner just means "I’m tired."

  No doubt.  But there is such a thing and I’ve visited it.  Merely tired shows up as just being tired.  No big deal and one can run through it fairly easily.  It is ignorable and shows up mostly while you’re running.   Overtrained is hard to ignore, if you’re accustomed to paying any attention to your body, and shows up throughout the day.  Resting pulse starts climbing — mine reached 60+ from its normal of 44.  Pulse at the end of runs for any given pace level climbs (I assume that it does during the runs too, but have never had an HRM) significantly, say 10-20%.  Concentration deteriorated and it became hard to sleep. See also Noakes, _Lore of Running_.  I’ll add that it showed up around only 25-30 mpw.  I learned my lessons from it and since spent a couple of months around 35 mpw consistently.  On my way back now, I think. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

Thanks for writing back–I’ve found that when I feel *overtrained* I start feeling a bit jittery at night after my tempo workout and either have trouble getting to sleep, or have nightmares that night.  I also start getting *the sniffles* and I have to overload on the OJ and Vitamin C the next couple of days, and really slow down on the next few runs, or take an unscheduled rest day. How are you able to stay focused on your *goal* for 26 weeks??  I found that to be a real problem last year when I was trying the Galloway method for the first time–of course, I didn’t have the mileage base last year either, and I was less able to tolerate the mileage increase on the long runs than now! Jean in VA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snipped] However, I’ve found that when my mileage approaches or goes over 30 mpw, I feel tired and probably overtrained I’ve never quite figured out what ‘overtrained’ is.  Could you fill me in? If you’re going to increase miles and therefore physical stress you’ll feel tired.  I’ve heard the ‘overtrained’ excuse used often when in fact the overtrained runner just means "I’m tired." when I was training for the Rock n Roll  1/2 marathon this summer, I was only able to get in two 14 mile runs before  the race–one of these runs was OK, the other was harder than I expected.  Because of this, and my 2:30 finish at Rock n Roll, I decided not to do the Chicago Marathon next week–I simply didn’t feel ready for the race, or able to complete the rest of the long runs. If you were looking forward to a successful marathon, 25 mpw was not nearly adequate.  Good thing you passed on the "opportunity" that would have turned into a 6 hour urban hike. Any suggestions on how to increase my mileage this fall, so that I don’t get injured–and so that I’m able to consider doing the Shamrock Marathon in mid-March 2002?  My goal for the marathon is 5:00 to 5:15. But yet, you’re capable of far more.  Here’s my recommended approach. I’ll call it the hard-core method.  There’s other methods; reject mine at your leisure–literally. The body adapts to change slowly.  A callous develops on the foot or hand as the result of a stress over time.  If you wanted to accelerate the callousing process, by say, roughing the same area with sandpaper, you’d just end up injuring your hand or foot. Regarding your injury concerns, if you don’t want a running injury, don’t run. Other than that, get good shoes, stretch, ice after, blah, blah, blah. It’s a goal that’s going to take you 10 hours per week for the next 24 weeks. Go with the slow, consistent approach and a focus on the goal. Run a race every 3 weeks to assess. Believe me, you’ll see results. Stick with a club or running partner.  Schedule workouts, be on time, do it every week. Get some paper.  Point 1 is this week and is you with your 9:25 mile over 5K. Point 26 is next March where you’ll be running a sub 4:40 marathon.  There are 24 points in between with each point representing the week’s miles. For now start with 25 mpw and aim to hit 50 by February.  It’s a straight line ascending line through the points. Point 1 to point 26 is a SLOW 24 week progression as you first aim  for 25 miles, then 30 then 40 then the sky’s the limit. Set the goal for 30 miles next week. If you miss it, set it again.  If you miss it, set it again.  If you miss it, set it again.  Get the picture?  Then set 35. But first, asked yourself why did you miss it?  If it was because you were too tired to run a scheduled day, no biggie, just try it again next week.  If you missed it because of some other conflicting activity, then you’re priorities aren’t  focused on the marathon.  They’re diverted by something else — also, no biggie.  Just recognize that maybe it’s the body that’s willing while the mind has other plans. Last, every day’s run has a purpose.  It’s to rest, or run hard or to run fast.  Mix in 3 types of running each week for variety: One Fast at 8 – 9 per mile. 1 Hard at 10 per mile and 5 Easy at either 11-12 per mile or no running at all. Run your long ones slow and your short ones fast. left-right-repeat Jennifer

Response:

An excellent summary Lyndon!!!   -Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need to be careful here.  The USATF Track and Field Coaching manual lists the following symtoms of unsatisfactory progress (this is specifically about peaking, but also applies to overtraining generally): frequent strains of minor injuries frequent colds or viruses persistent muscle or joint soreness loss of flexibility feeling heavy irritability depression tenseness difficulty sleeping Any single symptom does not necessarily mean anything in particular.  But a COMBINATION of symptoms usually does mean an athlete at high risk for overtraining. There is also a concept known as "over-reaching."  The difference is than in over-reaching, you intentionally push for a short period (not more than a week or so) right to the edge of overtraining (and you get some of the overtraining symptoms during this period), and then you cut back the training immediately and sharply–rest for a week or so to allow supercompensation to take place. This is not necessarily risky–if you cut back in time (Lasse Viren used this when winning gold medals in the ’70s and Steve Ovett used a version of this called "crash training" in the ’80s). However, if you continue to push your training in the presence of these symtoms, you WILL become overtrained and you WILL pay for it in terms of unsatisfactory progress, and perhaps injury. My impression here is that you have tried to push the mileage up too rapidly. You need to listen to your body and not some mechanical mileage formula (which may end up getting you injured).  If you begin observing multiple symptoms of overtraining, you need to increase your volume or intensity more slowly.

Response:

 Hello folks– However, I’ve found that when my mileage approaches or goes over 30 mpw, I feel tired and probably overtrained–when I was training for the Rock n Roll 1/2 marathon this summer, I was only able to get in two 14 mile runs before the race–one of these runs was OK, the other was harder than I expected. Because of this, and my 2:30 finish at Rock n Roll, I decided not to do the Chicago Marathon next week–I simply didn’t feel ready for the race, or able to complete the rest of the long runs.

Rest is a very subtle but very important component of running faster/further. The 2 rest days you have per week are one aspect of rest. But then there is the bigger picture of looking at your schedule from a weekly/monthly/seasonal view. Have you been continually maintaining or increasing your weekly mileage for a long time without any breaks? Then you might benefit from taking an occasional or even regularly scheduled "down" week. For example, some experts suggest that you take every 4th week as a rest week where you cut your mileage by 50%. I believe in this concept but find the most difficult part of it mustering the self-discipline to cut back if my running is going well. However, my body always rewards me for such rest by being stronger afterwards. YMMV. I am prone to injuries and it took me a few years to figure out what works for me. Good luck. — Peter James Ontario Canada

Response:

How are you able to stay focused on your *goal* for 26 weeks?? Here’s what works for me: My overall goal is to qualify for Boston. I’m about a year away from it right now. But every time I wonder whether I can skip a workout, I remind myself that passing will make Boston less likely to happen for me. Sometimes I skip the workout anyway. Can’t be fanatical. But the motivation works. After Boston I’ll shoot for sub-3, then 2:45 …

Me, I’ll shoot for Boston, then I’ll shoot for New York.  The qualifying time for New York is a little tighter than Boston, if you don’t want to risk using the lottery. Yes, Boston seems out of the question for me right now, but I never even thought I’d do a sub 4 hour marathon at this time last year. Thanks,         Roger – gotta run –

Response:

I’ve found that when I feel *overtrained* I start feeling a bit jittery at night after my tempo workout and either have trouble getting to sleep, or have nightmares that night.  I also start getting *the sniffles* and I have to overload on the OJ and Vitamin C the next couple of days, and really slow down on the next few runs, or take an unscheduled rest day.

You need to be careful here.  The USATF Track and Field Coaching manual lists the following symtoms of unsatisfactory progress (this is specifically about peaking, but also applies to overtraining generally): frequent strains of minor injuries frequent colds or viruses persistent muscle or joint soreness loss of flexibility feeling heavy irritability depression tenseness difficulty sleeping Any single symptom does not necessarily mean anything in particular.  But a COMBINATION of symptoms usually does mean an athlete at high risk for overtraining.   There is also a concept known as "over-reaching."  The difference is than in over-reaching, you intentionally push for a short period (not more than a week or so) right to the edge of overtraining (and you get some of the overtraining symptoms during this period), and then you cut back the training immediately and sharply–rest for a week or so to allow supercompensation to take place. This is not necessarily risky–if you cut back in time (Lasse Viren used this when winning gold medals in the ’70s and Steve Ovett used a version of this called "crash training" in the ’80s). However, if you continue to push your training in the presence of these symtoms, you WILL become overtrained and you WILL pay for it in terms of unsatisfactory progress, and perhaps injury. My impression here is that you have tried to push the mileage up too rapidly. You need to listen to your body and not some mechanical mileage formula (which may end up getting you injured).  If you begin observing multiple symptoms of overtraining, you need to increase your volume or intensity more slowly. Lyndon "Speed Kills.  It kills those that don’t have it" –Brooks Johnson

Response:

Any suggestions on how to increase my mileage this fall, so that I don’t get injured–and so that I’m able to consider doing the Shamrock Marathon in mid-March 2002?  My goal for the marathon is 5:00 to 5:15.  I’m female, 46 years old, and am 5′3" tall and weigh 123 lbs now (a loss of 15 lbs over the last 15 months or so).

  See my reply to Jenn regarding what overtrained looks like vs. tired, later in this thread.   For increasing mileage while avoiding injury, a big concern of mine last year in preparing for my first truly long race, I found the best route to be increasing the number of days per week.  Secondarily, to decrease the intensity of those days.  So for you almost 6 months to a marathon, what I’d suggest is to lay off the tempo day and just run a relaxed 9 k that day.  For now.  Work on adding in another day of 5k or so done easily.  This may require taking a day you’re already running, say the 9k tempo day, and splitting the mileage across two days.  Start with 2 5k runs instead of 9k and off day.     After you’re up stably to 6 days a week, then start increasing the miles.     In the mean time also, it may be a good idea for your body to back down the long runs.  Take it down to 90 minutes for a while as you increase days per week.   Once you get closer to the marathon period, say within 3 months, then start pushing intensity as in your tempo runs.  Base miles and miles per week done in good form are the most important thing.   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

[snipped] However, I’ve found that when my mileage approaches or goes over 30 mpw, I

feel tired and probably overtrained I’ve never quite figured out what ‘overtrained’ is.  Could you fill me in?  If you’re going to increase miles and therefore physical stress you’ll feel tired.  I’ve heard the ‘overtrained’ excuse used often when in fact the overtrained runner just means "I’m tired." when I was training for the Rock n Roll  1/2 marathon this summer, I was only

able to get in two 14 mile runs before  the race–one of these runs was OK, the other was harder than I expected.  Because of this, and my 2:30 finish at Rock n Roll, I decided not to do the Chicago Marathon next week–I simply didn’t feel ready for the race, or able to complete the rest of the long runs. If you were looking forward to a successful marathon, 25 mpw was not nearly adequate.  Good thing you passed on the "opportunity" that would have turned into a 6 hour urban hike. Any suggestions on how to increase my mileage this fall, so that I don’t get

injured–and so that I’m able to consider doing the Shamrock Marathon in mid-March 2002?  My goal for the marathon is 5:00 to 5:15. But yet, you’re capable of far more.  Here’s my recommended approach.  I’ll call it the hard-core method.  There’s other methods; reject mine at your leisure–literally. The body adapts to change slowly.  A callous develops on the foot or hand as the result of a stress over time.  If you wanted to accelerate the callousing process, by say, roughing the same area with sandpaper, you’d just end up injuring your hand or foot. Regarding your injury concerns, if you don’t want a running injury, don’t run. Other than that, get good shoes, stretch, ice after, blah, blah, blah. It’s a goal that’s going to take you 10 hours per week for the next 24 weeks. Go with the slow, consistent approach and a focus on the goal. Run a race every 3 weeks to assess. Believe me, you’ll see results. Stick with a club or running partner.  Schedule workouts, be on time, do it every week. Get some paper.  Point 1 is this week and is you with your 9:25 mile over 5K. Point 26 is next March where you’ll be running a sub 4:40 marathon.  There are 24 points in between with each point representing the week’s miles. For now start with 25 mpw and aim to hit 50 by February.  It’s a straight line ascending line through the points. Point 1 to point 26 is a SLOW 24 week progression as you first aim  for 25 miles, then 30 then 40 then the sky’s the limit. Set the goal for 30 miles next week. If you miss it, set it again.  If you miss it, set it again.  If you miss it, set it again.  Get the picture?  Then set 35. But first, asked yourself why did you miss it?  If it was because you were too tired to run a scheduled day, no biggie, just try it again next week.  If you missed it because of some other conflicting activity, then you’re priorities aren’t  focused on the marathon.  They’re diverted by something else — also, no biggie.  Just recognize that maybe it’s the body that’s willing while the mind has other plans. Last, every day’s run has a purpose.  It’s to rest, or run hard or to run fast.  Mix in 3 types of running each week for variety: One Fast at 8 – 9 per mile. 1 Hard at 10 per mile and 5 Easy at either 11-12 per mile or no running at all. Run your long ones slow and your short ones fast. left-right-repeat Jennifer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello folks– I’ve been running more seriously this year than previously, and I’ve progressed from a definitely *casual* runner, logging at most 8-10 mpw, to being someone who can comfortably run 25 mpw with no injury/dings.  My 5K time has also decreased from around 33:00 to a *recent* PB of 29:11 2 weeks ago.  I also ran a hilly trail 10K in 1:07 and change last Saturday.  So, I’m seeing some improvement in my stamina and ability to hold a faster pace for a longer period of time.  Besides my *long* run I do on Mondays, I do a *tempo/interval* workout at a collegiate field near my home with a local running club–the total workout, including warm-up and cool down is close to 5.5 miles–quite a bit less than the other folks who run this workout, but I do what I’m comfortable doing, and I’m no longer the *last* person finishing my intervals.  Then, the rest of the runs are *recovery* or *medium* runs to get in the rest of the weekly mileage.  Lately I’ve been running 5 days/week. However, I’ve found that when my mileage approaches or goes over 30 mpw, I feel tired and probably overtrained–when I was training for the Rock n Roll 1/2 marathon this summer, I was only able to get in two 14 mile runs before the race–one of these runs was OK, the other was harder than I expected. Because of this, and my 2:30 finish at Rock n Roll, I decided not to do the Chicago Marathon next week–I simply didn’t feel ready for the race, or able to complete the rest of the long runs. Any suggestions on how to increase my mileage this fall, so that I don’t get injured–and so that I’m able to consider doing the Shamrock Marathon in mid-March 2002?  My goal for the marathon is 5:00 to 5:15.  I’m female, 46 years old, and am 5′3" tall and weigh 123 lbs now (a loss of 15 lbs over the last 15 months or so). Thanks in advance– Jean Barto Newport News, VA

Congrats on your PR! Sounds like your body is telling you that your workouts are about as much as you can handle at the moment.  Are you running under mileage occasionally before trying to increase?  If you’re at a plateau, you can sometimes see-saw your mileage up some weeks and then go light the following week to avoid an overtraining situation.  Also try the usual tricks like cold soaks of your legs after workouts, massage, add an extra easy day, etc. But basically, it sounds like you’re doing things just about right at the moment.  It takes a long time to ramp up mileage once the initial gains have been made.  Be patient, and keep at it.  This time next year, you’ll look back and realize that your 25 mile weeks are now your easy weeks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello folks– I’ve been running more seriously this year than previously, and I’ve progressed from a definitely *casual* runner, logging at most 8-10 mpw, to being someone who can comfortably run 25 mpw with no injury/dings.  My 5K time has also decreased from around 33:00 to a *recent* PB of 29:11 2 weeks ago.  I also ran a hilly trail 10K in 1:07 and change last Saturday.  So, I’m seeing some improvement in my stamina and ability to hold a faster pace for a longer period of time.  Besides my *long* run I do on Mondays, I do a *tempo/interval* workout at a collegiate field near my home with a local running club–the total workout, including warm-up and cool down is close to 5.5 miles–quite a bit less than the other folks who run this workout, but I do what I’m comfortable doing, and I’m no longer the *last* person finishing my intervals.  Then, the rest of the runs are *recovery* or *medium* runs to get in the rest of the weekly mileage.  Lately I’ve been running 5 days/week. However, I’ve found that when my mileage approaches or goes over 30 mpw, I feel tired and probably overtrained–when I was training for the Rock n Roll 1/2 marathon this summer, I was only able to get in two 14 mile runs before the race–one of these runs was OK, the other was harder than I expected. Because of this, and my 2:30 finish at Rock n Roll, I decided not to do the Chicago Marathon next week–I simply didn’t feel ready for the race, or able to complete the rest of the long runs. Any suggestions on how to increase my mileage this fall, so that I don’t get injured–and so that I’m able to consider doing the Shamrock Marathon in mid-March 2002?  My goal for the marathon is 5:00 to 5:15.  I’m female, 46 years old, and am 5′3" tall and weigh 123 lbs now (a loss of 15 lbs over the last 15 months or so). Thanks in advance– Jean Barto Newport News, VA

Hi Jean, First of all, congrats on your new 5k PR!  That’s great! The first thing that popped into my mind while reading your post is: do you eat enough?  With the increased mileage, your body needs more energy (food) to keep going, so you will have to increase the amount you eat in order to be able to log all those miles.  Also, are you hydrated enough?  Dehydration can cause performance problems as well. Good luck! Martha

Response:

 Hello folks– I’ve been running more seriously this year than previously, and I’ve progressed from a definitely *casual* runner, logging at most 8-10 mpw, to being someone who can comfortably run 25 mpw with no injury/dings.  My 5K time has also decreased from around 33:00 to a *recent* PB of 29:11 2 weeks ago.  I also ran a hilly trail 10K in 1:07 and change last Saturday.  So, I’m seeing some improvement in my stamina and ability to hold a faster pace for a longer period of time.  Besides my *long* run I do on Mondays, I do a *tempo/interval* workout at a collegiate field near my home with a local running club–the total workout, including warm-up and cool down is close to 5.5 miles–quite a bit less than the other folks who run this workout, but I do what I’m comfortable doing, and I’m no longer the *last* person finishing my intervals.  Then, the rest of the runs are *recovery* or *medium* runs to get in the rest of the weekly mileage.  Lately I’ve been running 5 days/week. However, I’ve found that when my mileage approaches or goes over 30 mpw, I feel tired and probably overtrained–when I was training for the Rock n Roll 1/2 marathon this summer, I was only able to get in two 14 mile runs before the race–one of these runs was OK, the other was harder than I expected. Because of this, and my 2:30 finish at Rock n Roll, I decided not to do the Chicago Marathon next week–I simply didn’t feel ready for the race, or able to complete the rest of the long runs. Any suggestions on how to increase my mileage this fall, so that I don’t get injured–and so that I’m able to consider doing the Shamrock Marathon in mid-March 2002?  My goal for the marathon is 5:00 to 5:15.  I’m female, 46 years old, and am 5′3" tall and weigh 123 lbs now (a loss of 15 lbs over the last 15 months or so). Thanks in advance– Jean Barto Newport News, VA — "If you are going through hell, keep going." Winston Churchill

Response: