Run Run Away » running clothing

winter gear

admin — Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

(5) gloves and mitts: mitts give you better insulation. And you’ll need it on cold days. I put on gloves below 50, and by the time it’s 30 or less, I need really warm gloves.

I have some basic standards (they change with precipitation levels): 40 and above: shorts and sleeveless thin dri-fit (or similar) 30 to 40: shorts, long-sleeved thin dri-fit 20 to 30: shorts, sleeveless thin dri-fit and long-sleeved thin dri-fit over top 10 to 20: pants, any wicking variety works for me (I never wear tights), sleeveless thin dri-fit, running pullover/jacket, gloves (the miniature stretch wool gloves you get for $ 1.99 at K-Mart) 10 and below: same as above with skull cap and additional layer beneath pullover/jacket I don’t even get too scientific or particular about the products I wear, I am more concerned with rubbing and chaffing than I am warmth. Regardless of the weather I am cold for the first mile or so and sweating hot 3 miles into my run. I’d much rather suffer a mile or two of cold than 5 or 6 miles of overheating. As I look around at my fellow runners here in Colorado I don’t see many at all who are significantly different from me in their choice of attire for running in respective temperature ranges.

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Keep it simple. G O R E – T E X It works

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<< Keep it simple. G O R E – T E X It works Gore Tex HAHA! Gore lost, Tex cheated! _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!

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That seems like a lot of work….just to end up looking like a circus clown.

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[High Con] << That seems like a lot of work….just to end up looking like a circus clown. Yes ~ Horny Hounds Primp, All explained, Act 2, sc. iii. "Horny Hounds Prance: Around Town, Just a Wilde Ballet." _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Winter’s coming, time to pick up some gear if you don’t have it yet. Winter gear has been discussed to death before, and some of the discussion has been summarised and linked to here: http://www.pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/running/winter_reviews/ Having made it through a winter, my take on winter essentials is: (1) I like windproof soft shell clothing. Especially clothes with a windproof front and a breathable polyester back. This type of garment protects you from the wind, but breathes much better than a jacket. Because running jackets are designed to be waterproof, they don’t breathe all that well, even with pit zips, mesh, back vents and all that.

Not only that, I probably own more shoes than her (-; Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Winter’s coming, time to pick up some gear if you don’t have it yet. Winter gear has been discussed to death before, and some of the discussion has been summarised and linked to here: http://www.pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/running/winter_reviews/ Having made it through a winter, my take on winter essentials is: (1) I like windproof soft shell clothing. Especially clothes with a windproof front and a breathable polyester back. This type of garment protects you from the wind, but breathes much better than a jacket. Because running jackets are designed to be waterproof, they don’t breathe all that well, even with pit zips, mesh, back vents and all that.

Holy Shit dude, you shop more than my wife! M.T.

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It’s http://www.greggscycles.com/cartgenie/prod-1254.htm without the ’s’ it’s some sponsored link search thing. Is Sugoi the only company making this kind of front-block back-vent top? Thanks. -Tony ps. Windboxers do seem hard to find. I got some Asics ones at

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Bunch of stuff from MEC: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=…

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Thanks Donovan, indeed, good winter gear makes all the difference. I’m interested in this: Sugoi windhibitor evaporator jacket: jacket similar to the midlayer: windproof front, soft breathable poly back. greggscycle.com, $70. It’s http://www.greggscycles.com/cartgenie/prod-1254.htm without the ’s’ it’s some sponsored link search thing. Is Sugoi the only company making this kind of front-block back-vent top? Thanks.

First, thanks for the correction. About your question — There are three brands I’ve seen that have used the windproof front/breathable polyester back design: Sugoi (windhibitor midlayer/evaporator top) Sporthill (the explorer top, see REI) and the REI lightweight cross country ski jacket. http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8001&catalogId… http://tinyurl.com/4qu68 ps. Windboxers do seem hard to find. I got some Asics ones at

Sugoi: http://revelsports.com/Sugoi/19010U.htm Sporthill: http://milemarkersports.com/product.php?TypeID=0830&gender=m Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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Winter’s coming, time to pick up some gear if you don’t have it yet. Winter gear has been discussed to death before, and some of the discussion has been summarised and linked to here: http://www.pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/running/winter_reviews/ Having made it through a winter, my take on winter essentials is: (1) I like windproof soft shell clothing. Especially clothes with a windproof front and a breathable polyester back. This type of garment protects you from the wind, but breathes much better than a jacket. Because running jackets are designed to be waterproof, they don’t breathe all that well, even with pit zips, mesh, back vents and all that. (2) Despite not liking running jackets that much, one thing they have going for them is visibility. They are very reflective, and if you get one in a bright color, you will be visible from a great distance. (3) socks: nothing beats wool on cold, wet days. Forget about keeping your feet dry when it’s wet out. It’s not going to happen. Instead, wear something that stays warm when it gets wet. Like wool. (4) pants: pants are nice and comfortable, but tights are a must when you have cold rain. Though the sporthill 3sp pants may be an exception (polypro, so they won’t hold any water) (5) gloves and mitts: mitts give you better insulation. And you’ll need it on cold days. I put on gloves below 50, and by the time it’s 30 or less, I need really warm gloves. There are only two brands I know of that make running mitts– sugoi and sporthill. The sugoi ones are available cheaply now. Several brands make ski mitts, some of these are OK, but most are way too bulky. (6) wind briefs/boxers: The difference between a "wind brief" and any other brief is that the wind brief has a small patch of material similar to that used on windshells over the fly. Besides that, it’s basically an ordinary brief. But that little patch is important, and on windy days, you (if you’re a guy) will really appreciate that little patch. I have sugoi and hind boxers/ briefs, both are good. I highly recommend these for guys. They’re not available cheaply now. REI have some less expensive windbrief, don’t know if these are any good. Having said all of this, here is a bunch of stuff I’ve found on the net while looking around for winter clothes: Some picks in different categories: Rain Jackets Pearl izumi flash jacket, REI. This one is a polyester shell with large reflective patches. Has a back vent and pockets. On rei-outlet for $42 Sugoi Bosui vapor jacket: top of the line from Sugoi. On rei-outlet, mens and womens $57 Sugoi Pro jacket: cheap jacket from sugoi, $22 on rei-outlet Marmot precip jacket: popular rain jacket from a brand that makes top notch hiking/ski gear. This should nearly always available on ebay, it’s a "classic". ebay: lots of jackets here, look around. footlocker: ditto. Search for clearance running clothing Windproof clothing Sugoi windhibitor midlayer (womens): windproof front (densely woven soft shell fabric), highly breathable polyester back. $50 at coloradocyclist.com. Mens version is $75 at holabirdsports.com (or get the womens 1 size up) Sugoi windhibitor evaporator jacket: jacket similar to the midlayer: windproof front, soft breathable poly back. greggscycle.com, $70. Sporthill catalyst top: windpro fleece top. $54- on rei-outlet Sporthill windshield hacket: soft shell jacket. $80 on rei-outlet rei lightweight cross country ski jacket: soft shell jacket with windproof front and poly panels on the back. $47 on rei-outlet sporthill windshield pants: no-one (or almost no-one) really needs windproof pants IMO, but you can get them on rei-outlet. ebay: sometimes has sugoi windhibitor clothing, mountain hardwear (windproof tops called "transition tee"), and marmot’s light windproof top ("evolution") Marmot sharp point jacket, marmot gravity jacket: Just threw these in for the hell of it. Very warm soft shell jackets, which can often be found on ebay. Will probably be too warm for most people. Gloves: ——- smartwool glove liners $8 rei-outlet hind gloves: performancebike.com sugoi micratherm wind mitt: $15 performancebike.com Tops: sporthill infuzion top. This is a warm poly top with a zip neck. Mens and womens. $40 rei-outlet sporthill tempo top. Light nylon top. Mens and womens. $28 rei-outlet hinddrylete top: light poly/nylon top with zip neck. womens: $22, rei-outlet. hind tops are also available at footlocker.com (mens,womens) and campmor.com (womens) insport: a bunch of stuff at insport.com (under "sale") and rei-outlet.com. For example, the vapor fleece top is a very warm poly fleece top. duofold: low cost wicking base layer gear. campmor.com. Pants and tights: Hind on campmor, insport (several choices) rei-outlet.com pearl izumi: womens on rei-outlet.com hind: munich pants on campmor.com Socks: smartwool: RBX racer socks, RBX ultra cushion socks, RBX micro mini socks $8 rei-outlet. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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I just need to know briefly what some of you are wearing for running in the extreme cold. In preparation for a 11mile Dec 29th trail run,. and tricky winters here in Indiana, I want to get a pair of tights. I have winter gear but need what type of _material_ for COLD, cloudy, windy day.??Are there any known tights out there for this particular brutal COLD running. I am willing of course to pay the price for one pair. Now I have plenty of running gear for temps in the teens but not for single digits and sub zero. I layer on top. Also, if there is a lot of snow on the ground is there anything I can buy to protect my lower leg from getting wet and freezing. Thanks. Just want some ideas before I head to Galyans and running store. Laurie-

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Laurie, For sub-0 and wind, I think I would layer fleece (or light power dry, if you’re warmer blooded than I am) under SportHills XC pants – SportHills are pricey, but I found they are working better for me than the other combinations I’ve tried in the past month (southcentral Alaska banana belt). SportHill XC pants are "rated" to 15F and 35mph winds but I could feel the 15mph wind through them (windchill 8F). A powerdry layer underneath fixed that next time around (10F, calm). You might try gaiters for the ankles and the top portion of your feet (haven’t tested them yet). Bill pointed me to RaceReady for some but I haven’t bought any yet and they may be too low for deep snow – ski gaiters may be better. What I’m going to try the next time we have soft snow is putting duct tape over the open mesh on the toes of the running shoe. I didn’t get that idea until last night so haven’t had a chance to try it yet and am not sure if it will hold that well. The toe mesh is where I get the most cold, wet snow seeping through to my feet. A much better idea is found on http://www.fred.net/ultrunr/cold.html (scroll down to Dave Hurd for shoe techniques) (Bill pointed me to that general web site for lots of good information) Click on YourGear, then scroll down to "Strictly for Foot" on the following URL http://www.susitna100.com/ The following URL has some suggestions also. http://www.runningclubnorth.org/lcld_prs.htm What I’m finding on many of the websites that I’ve checked out is that for the cold, snowy conditions, using a neoprene or weatherproof sock of some sort seems to be recommended. I tested StormCloth ones one night, and they were ok, but we haven’t had the wet snow that I was intending them for. Polartec socks were also much warmer than my Ultimax. But I haven’t had the real cold temps yet to test the other socks I’ve got, like SmartWool. As you may have guessed, I’ve been dealing with the same questions for the past month Good luck! Dot

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Start with CoolMax or the like. Keep away from cotton like the plague, except for a throw away top layer. Exactly what depends on the weather of the day. In most typical weather say 20-30 F I would have a pair of moderate to heavy tights a CoolMax shirt long sleeve with a light weigh over shirt. Over that I would have an old race sweat shirt that I plan on dumping shortly after starting the run. If convenient I will pick it up later, if not no loss. — Dia ’s Muire duit Joseph E. Meehan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just need to know briefly what some of you are wearing for running in the extreme cold. In preparation for a 11mile Dec 29th trail run,. and tricky winters here in Indiana, I want to get a pair of tights. I have winter gear but need what type of _material_ for COLD, cloudy, windy day.??Are there any known tights out there for this particular brutal COLD running. I am willing of course to pay the price for one pair. Now I have plenty of running gear for temps in the teens but not for single digits and sub zero. I layer on top. Also, if there is a lot of snow on the ground is there anything I can buy to protect my lower leg from getting wet and freezing. Thanks. Just want some ideas before I head to Galyans and running store. Laurie-

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Tights come in different thickness’ and provide different levels of warmth. I have various pairs and thickness’. I use the wind as a guide. If is just cold out I match the appropriate pair. If it’s to be windy or I’m not sure and to be safe, I wear a thin pair with nylon pants on top and have been good for -15 and lots of wind. It I didn’t already have umpteenth pairs I could get by with regular lycra tights and decide whether or not to to add the nylon wind breaker. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

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Layers. Under 0F I may have two on legs and three on top.

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I just need to know briefly what some of you are wearing for running in the extreme cold.

How about a treadmill, or access to an inside track Still hasn’t broken the 30’s here during my early runs.

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Wow, and here I am wondering what to wear when it’s 40F! ;-) (Often foggy & windy though.) Cotton isn’t great because of the sweat factor, but is it really necessary to spend several hundred dollars on a good top & tights? (Or more for more than one so I’m not doing laundry every day.) I just find if I get chilled at the beginning (in the wind/fog), I’m not able to warm back up again even after running a couple of miles and I’m still freezing at the end of the run. Right now I am wearing an old Hind bike shirt which probably looks silly, but I go to the sports store and just can’t make myself fork over $125 for a new top. I am treating myself to good shoes but thought that would be the only "major" expense – I thought running would be (comparatively) inexpensive! ;-)

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Oh my, $125?! there MUST be less expensive places where you could find some of the "wicking" fabric clothes. Do you have a Mountain Equipment Co-op store nearby? Or something like that, that sells outdoors and athletic gear for pretty decent prices. I’ve gotten a few shirts at MEC at a fraction of the cost of those at Running Room. For example, a $20 light wicking shirt at MEC vs. about 50 bucks at RR. Maybe you could shop by mail order through a running magazine. I haven’t done this, but I think several ng people have. Ask around….. best of luck! Cam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, and here I am wondering what to wear when it’s 40F! ;-) (Often foggy & windy though.) Cotton isn’t great because of the sweat factor, but is it really necessary to spend several hundred dollars on a good top & tights? (Or more for more than one so I’m not doing laundry every day.) I just find if I get chilled at the beginning (in the wind/fog), I’m not able to warm back up again even after running a couple of miles and I’m still freezing at the end of the run. Right now I am wearing an old Hind bike shirt which probably looks silly, but I go to the sports store and just can’t make myself fork over $125 for a new top. I am treating myself to good shoes but thought that would be the only "major" expense – I thought running would be (comparatively) inexpensive! ;-)

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If it’s to be windy or I’m not sure and to be safe, I wear a thin pair with nylon pants on top and have been good for -15 and lots of wind.

What type of breathable wind shell (top half, not pants) do you use? I’ve been trying to replace my supplex one (lost luggage with airlines) and haven’t found anything yet. My other "breathable" shells that I had laying around come back dripping on the inside after a 40-minute run. Right now, I’m just carrying one with me for weather changes, but I don’t like that as a long-term solution. Thanks. Dot

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Dot, Thank you so much for those links. I have checked them out and they really have some valuable tips. I just bought a 3 piece goretex Patagonia ski suit. I can always wear the vest for this trail run. Lower body is my concern. I appreciate your tips and have a better idea now from reading those sights. This trail is around water, and wind and cold and being isolated are just a couple of things I need to prepare for. It is only 11 miles of a 50k but it can get pretty darn cold out there, esp without the sun. thanks again Laurie

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Depends on how far you run. For my morning 5-8 mile runs I use sweat pants and a few cotton running shirts with a wind breaker. OTOH for my long runs I jump into the poly_yuckta tops and appropriate bottom wear. Right now I am wearing an old Hind bike shirt which probably looks silly, but I go to the sports store and just can’t make myself fork over $125 for a new top.

It’s not necessary to spend this amount of money to stay warm and dry in the winter. I am treating myself to good shoes but thought that would be the only "major" expense – I thought running would be (comparatively) inexpensive! ;-)

It is but they do parade some really nice looking stuff to temp your tastes. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

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Dot asked: What type of breathable wind shell (top half, not pants) do you use?

My bride bought me a Frank Shorter gortex jacket. I wear a poly long sleeve shirt(or two) underneath and I have never been cold. The vents and general breathability seem to wick nicely as I sweat a lot. My hands thought, have been very sensitive since my winter trip to Fairbanks many years ago. I wear very heavy mittens. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

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How about a treadmill, or access to an inside track

My psychiatry bill would offset the warmth. I’d go bloody nuts. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

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Glad I could share the help that other’s have shared with me. Good luck! Dot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dot, Thank you so much for those links. I have checked them out and they really have some valuable tips. I just bought a 3 piece goretex Patagonia ski suit. I can always wear the vest for this trail run. Lower body is my concern. I appreciate your tips and have a better idea now from reading those sights. This trail is around water, and wind and cold and being isolated are just a couple of things I need to prepare for. It is only 11 miles of a 50k but it can get pretty darn cold out there, esp without the sun. thanks again Laurie

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My hands thought, have been very sensitive since my winter trip to Fairbanks many years ago. I wear very heavy mittens.

Fairbanks will do that to a person Thanks for the gore-tex comment. Dot

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is there anything to cover the nose and the mouth when running? because the wind sometimes is pretty strong and my nose becomes a piece of ice…

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is there anything to cover the nose and the mouth when running? because the wind sometimes is pretty strong and my nose becomes a piece of ice…

Some people wear face masks aka balaclavas which cover you face except small openings for the eyes, nose and mouth. I prefer a layer of Vaseline on the exposed areas, rather that the mask. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

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Right now I am wearing an old Hind bike shirt which probably looks silly, but I go to the sports store and just can’t make myself fork over $125 for a new top. I am treating myself to good shoes but thought that would be the only "major" expense – I thought running would be (comparatively) inexpensive! ;-)

I ditto both Doug’s comments about it not needing to be expensive, and there are some nice, pricey things out there. More importantly, if you want to keep it inexpensive, do NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES let a salesman talk you into trying it on I say this as a veteran of three months of trying to replace 5 to 10-yr old gear lost by airlines this summer. I’d been rather skeptical of some of the high tech materials, especially after I had seen some of the early disasters with Gore-Tex in the 70s [which is why I still don't own any Gore-tex (not counting boots that leaked right after warranty expired) even though I know it has changed and have heard very good comments from some locals about it]. However, some salesmen talked me into trying some of the stuff (power dry, Polartec fleece) on, and well, I got hooked – it was just a matter of size after that. I don’t regret spending the money. Some of the gear is nice and functional and far superior to what I used to have. But keep in mind that I’m a field ecologist in Alaska, so I’ll end up using the gear for work as well as winter runs (possibly <0F). You probably won’t have demands like that for your needs. BTW, I did draw the line at the $125 Patagonia Integral jacket But if it had had a hood on it, I might have considered buying it since a good running shell is my weak link right now. Good luck! Dot

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is there anything to cover the nose and the mouth when running? because the wind sometimes is pretty strong and my nose becomes a piece of ice…

Ditto Doug’s comments, again. And if it’s just your nose that gets cold, then vaseline is probably the best bet. I haven’t tried vaseline yet because our winter winds pick up grit from roads and glacial rivers, so I think it would be rather gritty for here. That said, coming back from a 55 minute 11F calm wind run last night, I was thinking that vaseline on cheeks might be nice since it was too warm to pull anything over head. If it’s more than just nose, then read on. Over the years, I’ve played around with balaclavas (large opening for eyes, nose, and mouth if you pull it down enough), face mask (generally, more complete covering with smaller, separate holes for eyes, nose, mouth), and scarf. Cold (subzero), dry air tends to give me a scratchy feeling on back of throat, so in the coldest temperatures, I like to "recycle" the moisture by covering my mouth with something also – this also recycles heat too, whether you want it or not. I tend to be claustrophobic so couldn’t stand most face masks, and the scarf allowed major flexibility in ventilation. The knot weaves worked well in cold weather, but not windy (not too much of an issue since when it gets windy, the temperatures warm up – usually). However, I recently found a windstopper "face mask" although it is more like a balaclava with a mouth opening. That one doesn’t give me claustrophia (although I did get it a little large), and it stops wind, at least in the breezes we’ve had so far. I think I may get to test it in one of our Matanuska winds this evening (45-60mph winds forecast), but temperatures may get above freezing [and possible rain ]so it won’t be a real good test. In the stores, I also noticed some other hybrids that you could wear as a balaclava, neck gaitor, or whatever, depending upon how you put it on. Good luck! Dot

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about 20mph winds (apparently the winds peaked while I was at lap swim so I missed the best time), temps near 30F with something hard coming out of the sky – it wasn’t quite freezing rain, but it sure wasn’t soft, flaky snow. My shell was encased in ice when I got home. At any rate, the face mask worked great, beyond my expectations – it was like a soft helmet against this pelting ice. I started and ended with just a hat for comparison. The windstopper material really does stop wind reasonably well, but depending upon where you live and how much protection you need, it is probably overkill. In most cases, vaseline would probably do fine. I couldn’t find any at home to test. good luck! Dot PS. oh yeah, I was warm and dry inside, including warm feet. I think I’m getting these new layers worked out

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is there anything to cover the nose and the mouth when running? because the wind sometimes is pretty strong and my nose becomes a piece of ice… Ditto Doug’s comments, again. And if it’s just your nose that gets cold, then vaseline is probably the best bet. I haven’t tried vaseline yet

yeah, I’ll try that. mouth), and scarf. Cold (subzero), dry air tends to give me a scratchy feeling on back of throat, so in the coldest temperatures, I like to

yeah, I forgot about this thing: when it’s pretty cold and I breath through my mouth, I get a sore throat (just came back from london where there’s constant, chilled wind and a friggin’ cold temperature and my throat was something unbelievable, I couldn’t even swallow properly for at least four days). Like a friend of mine did before, you suggest covering the mouth… I suppose with one of those white smog mask cyclist always wear? I thought that "recycling" the carbon dioxide that we exhale was not a good thing, especially while running…

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Like a friend of mine did before, you suggest covering the mouth… I suppose with one of those white smog mask cyclist always wear? I thought that "recycling" the carbon dioxide that we exhale was not a good thing, especially while running…

Not sure I’ve seen those white smog masks. But balaclavas / face masks that I’ve seen are used frequently by snow machiners as well as skiiers and other outdoor recreationists – or even just use a scarf. I don’t worry about the little bit of CO2 that’s being recycled with the moisture – there’s too much fresh air coming in also (at least the way I do it), but it does get warmed / moisturized or whatever. It’s something you’ll need to play around with to suit your conditions. Keep in mind that a balaclava or something like that will also reduce heat from escaping from head, neck, and ears – I think this is where something like 40% of body heat is lost. If you’re trying to keep warm the balaclava is a good solution; but if you are trying to vent heat but keep face from freezing, then the vaseline may be a better solution, except that you need to think about it ahead of time. Good luck! Dot

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Some people wear face masks aka balaclavas which cover you face except small openings for the eyes, nose and mouth.

But it

Heat index and quality training

admin — Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FWIW, Bob Glover certainly hasn’t given us a break from long intervals (1-2.4 miles) and tempos this summer, in fact it seems we seldom do anything else these days. A lot of our people are training for the NY marathon. Are you running in Atlanta, GA, with its weather, or in NY, with its (cooler, drier) weather? NY. It’s hot enough to slow pace on a tempo run down by 20 seconds per mile on a bad day, so a tempo run would be somewhat slower than any race I’d run in cool conditions, but it’s nowhere near as severe as what Phil describes.

I think I’m just going to stop whining and run in the morning, at least until the daily highs are less than 80 in mid September. Phil M.

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What about recent science concerning training in heat and racing in cooler temps?

Off my radar – I have not read anything about it. All I know is I run better, faster and have more fun when I go from summer heat to fall coolness. No science just personal taste. I do know and experienced the revese this spring – I trained in cool and ran in heat and shit the bed big time. I’ll bet I get an amen from those that did Boston this year. -Doug

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Off my radar

Been spending too much time on your hands and knees Doug?

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Donovan, I’ll re-phrase Phil’s question slightly. It’s an old discussion we’ve played around with several times. Say you have two runners of identical ability. One trains in Bangor, Maine, the other in Atlanta, GA. They do virtually identical workouts for 6 months, consisting of tempo, LSD, etc monitoring their exertion with HRM’s, staying within identical ranges. However, because of the significant difference in temperature and it’s effect on the body, The Maine runner’s average speed for all the workouts is about 45 seconds per mile faster than his southern compatriot. Given the old adage that you "train fast to run fast, train slow to run slow," it would appear that in a race at a neutral site, the Maine runner would have the advantage, having trained at a faster overall rate. Otherwise, you could create a new adage, train slow in the heat, beat them Yankees anyway…"

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FWIW, Bob Glover certainly hasn’t given us a break from long intervals (1-2.4 miles) and tempos this summer, in fact it seems we seldom do anything else these days. A lot of our people are training for the NY marathon. Are you running in Atlanta, GA, with its weather, or in NY, with its (cooler, drier) weather? NY. It’s hot enough to slow pace on a tempo run down by 20 seconds per mile on a bad day, so a tempo run would be somewhat slower than any race I’d run in cool conditions, but it’s nowhere near as severe as what Phil describes.

That’s why the different perspectives. I checked the climatology a bit, especially the dew points, and mine are closer to his than yours, and are already bad enough to be worth more like 40-60 seconds/mile (to me) on a tempo-type run. I’m definitely on the end of being more affected by hot and humid than most people. But, then again, he’s also got worse heat and humidity to deal with. The pace difference is enough that I feel that such training serves mostly to beat me up, but not do much towards racing, lactic tolerance, running efficiency, or anything else one is trying to train either biochemically or biomechanically in preparation for a race in cooler weather. Now, if the race were liable to be in hot/humid conditions, absolutely do the tempo runs in hot/humid conditions. Specificity is required there, and Dr. Clark showed the merits. But Chicago is just not that hot and humid in early October. Even if the temperature gets high, by running standards, the humidity doesn’t (well, much less often than the temperature) get high in October. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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I object to your premise. In particular, "etc" could possibly include a lot of things. Neither LSD, nor tempo training, do a whole lot for speed development (that’s why milers don’t just run tempos). Both of these primarily train the aerobic system. However, because of the significant difference in temperature and it’s effect on the body, The Maine runner’s average speed for all the workouts is about 45 seconds per mile faster than his southern compatriot.

No it isn’t. Both of them will be able to perform their more anaerobic workouts at comparable pace. I ran a mile PR this summer. Likewise, a workout predictive of 1 mile performance (like two sets of an 800+400+2×200 ladder with full recoveries) will be largely unaffected by heat, because you simply don’t heat up a whole lot in the space of 3 minutes (and you use full recoveries to minimise cumulative heat buildup) Given the old adage that you "train fast to run fast, train slow to run slow,"

The old adage is just that — an old adage. We now know that there are a number of problems with that assertion. In particular: (1) running ones base milage at a faster pace does not have a demonstrated advantage over running ones base milage slowly. (2) running at race pace is not as beneficial to running economy as training at a pace that may be much faster than race pace. In other words, doing the ladder workout I mentioned will do more for ones running economy than doing a tempo run (even if the actual race is run closer to tempo pace). (3) it’s well known that it’s not necessary to focus on speed-development for the entire training season. An emphasis on the aerobic system early in the training season, far from being detrimental, has provided excellent results for many athletes. In other words, you need to run fast sooner or later, but you don’t have to run fast all the time, and there will be several weeks for speed development after summer and before the race. it would appear that in a race at a neutral site, the Maine runner would have the advantage, having trained at a faster overall rate.

Not all parts of training are equal. Suppose you took two runners, one of whom his base milage at 7:30, the other whom did it at 8:00. But the one who trained at a slower pace also does a 4×1200 interval workout at 5:20 pace twice a week. Now on average, the guy with the 7:30 training pace is running faster, but which guy do you think is going to win ? The moral of this little parable is that: (a) you’ve assumed that they do identical workouts, but this needn’t be the case. The hot weather guy can add speed-specific work, and even do so in a fairly stress free way (strides, or 4×200 at the end of a tempo) (b) the 6 miles or so of fast running is actually more important as far as speed is concerned than the 70 miles or so of slow running. By incorporating a small amount of fast training (that doesn’t suffer from the heat) into the program, one can avoid losing speed. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I know we’ve discussed this recently and in the distant past. In fact, I recall a thread on this newsgroup between Mike Tennent and I back in ‘98. Go here for some interesting talk – http://tinyurl.com/6s2ue My question below still remains unanswered. [snip]

[more snip] Yes, that’s the problem. But maybe like Donovan says: So the point is that maybe you don’t get as much running economy workout of your tempo run, because the pace is slower. But this "should’t" matter a whole lot, provided that you’re already doing specific running economy work anyway. and Your speed really is there, you just can’t see it because of the shitty training conditions But you seem to think that the hot weather is a deterrent to quality training for a race to be held in cool weather.

It may be that Donovan’s take is entirely correct. On the other hand, his experience comes from a place cooler, and substantially drier, than even me, and mine is still drier than yours. Might also be that you aren’t nearly as weather sensitive as I am. To go to the matter of what’s going on when you are running in summer, as reflected by heart rate, and why I’m inclined to disagree about the effectiveness of sustained (as opposed to shorter) speed work in humid weather, … Why is your heart rate elevated in the summer for given (distance) paces? I’m confident that, notwithstanding how it feels at times, it isn’t because you have to push harder to move through humid air. If it were muscular effort involved, in one way or another, then I’d say no fundamental difference to the training as muscular effort is muscular effort and if the speed isn’t reflected against the track, it is indeed being built into the muscles. Instead, though, I think that the pulse is elevated in response to the difficulty of getting rid of heat in the humid air. It’s certainly necessary to be able to dump heat, but doing so in more difficult conditions doesn’t help your running biochemistry (lactic acid tolerances, metabolic enzymes, …) or your running biomechanics. It does good by way of keeping you from overheating/heat stroking/etc., which is certainly helpful to your training, by way of keeping you alive. So my view is that for my tempo run heart rate of 174, if I run in (very) bad weather, that 174 represents a 14 bpm penalty for the weather, and 160 as the indicator for running training level and type (i.e., vo2 vs. lactic vs …) . To get the running training level of 174, I’d have to run at 188. So goes my rationale for runs of sustained elevated pace only. LSD is LSD, even with heat and humidity, as are short forays into elevated pace. ’short’ = short enough that heat dissipation is not becoming a major factor in deciding whether I can hold the pace. Obviously this is physiologically testable, and may have been done (though my last forays in to zunis.org didn’t show me anything where they looked at the high humidity cases with respect to the sorts of things we’re talking about here). Sam? Someone else? – Are there research studies on high humidity running and training effects? [snip] In terms of the conditions helping or hurting … you have the conditions you have. True, but another option is to just run in the early morning and this whole question as to quality of training can be dropped. The question will still be out there, but I won’t have to worry about it for now.

By all means move those runs to the morning! If you can dodge the question entirely, do so! I’ve checked the weather for Chicago (taking Midway airport, MDW, as a better approximation to the course conditions than O’Hare), and, according to http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMDW/2003/10/7/WeeklyHist… the highest high for the week beginning October 7 is 80 F (cooler than I’d have thought), average 73, and minimum of 59 — for the high, 57, 51, and 43 for the lows. More importantly, the maximum dew point was 61, with the average being 47 F. At a dew point of 61, even if the temperature is 80, and even if you’re as bad as me about weather sensitivity, you should be fine on the weather. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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NY. It’s hot enough to slow pace on a tempo run down by 20 seconds per mile on a bad day, so a tempo run would be somewhat slower than any race I’d run in cool conditions, but it’s nowhere near as severe as what Phil describes. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know we’ve discussed this recently and in the distant past. In fact, I recall a thread on this newsgroup between Mike Tennent and I back in ‘98. Go here for some interesting talk – http://tinyurl.com/6s2ue My question below still remains unanswered. What I’m wondering though, is when training in all this heat are you ever able to really train at a level that would go along with your predicted race time (if the race is run at cooler temps)? I would think that ideally (though maybe not possible) you would want to train in conditions that would be similar to your goal race. Certainly that’s the ideal. Specificity is advantageous in most things. But then, recall that we don’t train for marathons by running marathons. Selective specificity? [snip] I did a tempo run yesterday while it was 93

am i an idiot?

admin — Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Re: am i an idiot? A: In short, yes.

Response:

I’m sure your black belt looks lovely when you’re dancing in front of the bedroom mirror, with the wife’s clothes on.

Undoubtedly, you’re speaking from first-hand experience.

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from alt.support.single-parents, ages ago.

wow. you’ve got a good memory. that was ages ago, certainly. Makes me wonder how you will fit a heavy-duty karate schedule *and* running into your life, but that’s for you to worry about, I suppose.

anything is possible for the determined Perhaps being an artiste is less time consuming that being a working stiff?

i’ve given that up. no time, no time. The bean’s about — what? 4 or 5 now?

4 She may be too young still, but in a year or so you can sign her up for every d*mn "junior ranger" program at the local nature center and then go run on trails for an hour each Saturday while she learns how to identify owl poo.

oooh! nifty! It’s cheap, it’s educational, and it’s relatively guilt-free.

i like that, relatively, hehe. kitznegari<—knows that there is nothing remotely involved in parenting that is guilt free. – k i t z – if you want my gravy, pepper my ragu spice it up for mama, she’ll get hot for you http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

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drlith said: Damn! First Igor followed me over here, and now Kitz. 34 bazillion newsgroups out there, and usenet is still a small, small world. do i know you?

from alt.support.single-parents, ages ago. Makes me wonder how you will fit a heavy-duty karate schedule *and* running into your life, but that’s for you to worry about, I suppose. Perhaps being an artiste is less time consuming that being a working stiff? The bean’s about — what? 4 or 5 now? She may be too young still, but in a year or so you can sign her up for every d*mn "junior ranger" program at the local nature center and then go run on trails for an hour each Saturday while she learns how to identify owl poo. It’s cheap, it’s educational, and it’s relatively guilt-free.

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drlith said: Damn! First Igor followed me over here, and now Kitz. 34 bazillion newsgroups out there, and usenet is still a small, small world.

do i know you? Anyhow, other people might have more brilliant advice on other aspects, but I feel qualified to discuss the "I hate running" part. I started running late last spring, and I really hated it at first. And then I just hated it mostly. And then I could barely tolerate it and still found that the best part of every run was the part when my feet stopped moving at the end.

LOL… that’s how i felt last summer Honest to god….take it easy, don’t get yourself injured, and keep at it slow and steady, and eventually you will stop hating it. You will even find parts of it you like, you will find yourself looking forward to running, and you will be disappointed, not gleeful, when hazardous driving conditions keep you from your Sunday morning trail run.

i started off my martial arts training that way. then it became a lifestyle for me. i got to about twice as many classes per week as anyone else in the school. One of the tricks, IMHO, is to stick with it long enough to get to the point where it’s possible to do an "easy" 2-3 mile run. Until you get to that point, "easy" and "run" don’t really go together…every step you run is a "hard" one, and the only way to cover any time/distance at all is to mix the running with some walking. How long it takes to add that "easy 3 miler" to your bag of tricks will vary.

hmmm… Other things that help: finding people to run with every now and then (many running clubs offer "beginner’s clinics" that are a good place to start).

i didn’t know about that… i should definitely check that out Finding a time and a place to run that you actually enjoy. Even if you can’t run all the time at that time or in that place, having at least one "fun" run to look forward to can help you get through the other runs the rest of the week. For me, it’s trail running. I try to get in at least one daytime run on trails each weekend–it makes my much-less-fun weeknight runs in the dark, on the roads, more bearable, because they are geared toward allowing me to run the trails better on the weekend. Winter can be a good time for trail running–the woods are pretty, there’s no mosquitos or ticks, and if it’s below freezing the sloppy places are crunchy.

thanks, drlith – k i t z – pop. six. squish. uhuh. cicero. lipschitz. http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

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Without a doubt.

Response:

the question is… am i stupid for planning on beginning to run in the middle of december? i started running during the summer this last year and decided that i hated it and i quit… but i feel very determined this time. all i’m wondering is… how smart is this of me to do? any suggestions? i really do appreciate the advice.

Damn! First Igor followed me over here, and now Kitz. 34 bazillion newsgroups out there, and usenet is still a small, small world. Anyhow, other people might have more brilliant advice on other aspects, but I feel qualified to discuss the "I hate running" part. I started running late last spring, and I really hated it at first. And then I just hated it mostly. And then I could barely tolerate it and still found that the best part of every run was the part when my feet stopped moving at the end. Honest to god….take it easy, don’t get yourself injured, and keep at it slow and steady, and eventually you will stop hating it. You will even find parts of it you like, you will find yourself looking forward to running, and you will be disappointed, not gleeful, when hazardous driving conditions keep you from your Sunday morning trail run. One of the tricks, IMHO, is to stick with it long enough to get to the point where it’s possible to do an "easy" 2-3 mile run. Until you get to that point, "easy" and "run" don’t really go together…every step you run is a "hard" one, and the only way to cover any time/distance at all is to mix the running with some walking. How long it takes to add that "easy 3 miler" to your bag of tricks will vary. Other things that help: finding people to run with every now and then (many running clubs offer "beginner’s clinics" that are a good place to start). Finding a time and a place to run that you actually enjoy. Even if you can’t run all the time at that time or in that place, having at least one "fun" run to look forward to can help you get through the other runs the rest of the week. For me, it’s trail running. I try to get in at least one daytime run on trails each weekend–it makes my much-less-fun weeknight runs in the dark, on the roads, more bearable, because they are geared toward allowing me to run the trails better on the weekend. Winter can be a good time for trail running–the woods are pretty, there’s no mosquitos or ticks, and if it’s below freezing the sloppy places are crunchy.

Response:

Also, I’m not sure what the concern is about starting running in mid-December. If you didn’t like running in summer, then maybe you’d like it in winter (assuming north of equator in some place lucky enough to have seasons). well i’m just wondering about health reasons… don’t most runners stop in the winter, or at least for a while? wouldn’t running in freezing conditions be bad for your muscles? that’s why i’m asking. i’m a dope about it and don’t know.

Everybody I know that runs, runs all year except maybe for summer field season or if they are xc skiing in years we have snow. I’m in southcentral Alaska. The biggest thing to be concerned about is warming up adequately and wearing clothing appropriate to the conditions. Some runners may take a couple weeks off for recovery, and that would normally be sometime relative to their race schedule more so than seasonal changes. Some do that in August. All runners *should* take some time off for recovery. (The article I cited originally discusses this.) Many runners have already started building for their spring races. People in warm climates may take this break in summer after a major spring race since they have fewer races then. I do periodize my training to account for differences in running conditions with the seasons since I don’t race much. My "down" time is usually Sept. But winter running is fun if take conditions into consideration. Similarly, summer running must take conditions into consideration. Icy footing is the main issue in some places. Some types of snow are fine to run in, but others can be slippery. Just try it. Enjoy Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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If you are wearing the appropriate running clothing, there shouldn’t be any harmful effects from running in the cold.

Response:

Very few stop running completely unless injured or having completed a race that was thoroughly exhausting. Many of us take breaks but these are simply reductions in miles and/or intensity. wouldn’t running in freezing conditions be bad for your muscles?

Don’t people ski, snowshoe, ice skate in the winter? Why would running be any worse. Personally I like to use the winter months to build my base, i.e. long slow distance miles. Dress properly and start off slow to allow your muscles to warm-up and you will be just fine. that’s why i’m asking. i’m a dope about it and don’t know.

It’s a valid question and many people will give you reasonable answers while others will offer dumb replies. Just ignore the dolts. — Doug Freese "Caveat Lector"

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Running endurance and tae kwon do endurance aren’t the same, different muscle groups. my instructor has said that running will help my sparring endurance. Wouldn’t it be better to spar more to get your endurance up for a match? i don’t choose how often i spar. it’s up to the teacher, unfortunately. i would love to take all-sparring hour long classes, but the lower ranks would get NO benefit from that.

I’ve not done martial arts (although had some exposure about 30 yr ago), but as already mentioned some aspects of endurance can be sport specific. However, I’m guessing you could do an "appropriate" running program that may benefit you and certainly doesn’t have to result in loss of flexibility. Also, I’m not sure what the concern is about starting running in mid-December. If you didn’t like running in summer, then maybe you’d like it in winter (assuming north of equator in some place lucky enough to have seasons). First, it’s not obvious to me if your "sparring endurance" issues are neuromuscular or aerobic. But if your instructor suggests running to help, then I’m guessing aerobic. Running conditioning usually develops 1. maximal aerobic capacity (which may include some of the others) 2. strengthen heart 3. increase blood volume 4. energy-producing muscle enzymes 5. muscles ability to extract oxygen from blood (not sure if this is where the mitochondria come in or not) 6. muscle capillarization (above are taken from RRN – see below for citation) Certain types of running may also improve ability to tolerate and/or clear lactic acid in specific muscles. My thoughts (and somebody more knowledgeable may want to correct me) are that #1-3 should definitely benefit your endurance. #4-6 may help if the muscles used are the same, but not sure if they have to be used in the same way. That is, if you are using your legs with any activity, you will increase #4-6. But to increase your endurance with kicking, for example, you may need neuromuscular endurance in kicking, that is, kick. Running (using legs) will help aerobic ability to use legs, but not the neuromuscular endurance. But I could be wrong. It’s something I’ve thought about because I mt bike a lot and am working out in a cross-training class for 2 hr on Sat morning. While neither one of them is running, I believe they have helped some aspects of my running, but the class has hindered others. It’s a matter of finding balance between the different activities and understanding what one is trying to train, that is matching training to goals. One other thought. I hate indoor training, esp. when we have fresh snow (ok, I cut the classes when the snow’s great). But I have seen enough benefits from it that I view it as a necessary (for now) evil to improve my running so I can reach those goals. Perhaps looking at running in that way – help you attain your martial arts goals – will help you get more into running and maybe even enjoy it as an activity in itself. #1-6 were taken from "You need a break this year". Running Research News 19(6):1-9. Aug 2003. (I just happened to be reading this and was the most convenient list of running benefits.) Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very true. Most Asian style martial arts require a high degree of flexibility. Running would have a negative impact on this. -Phil ? really? Yes. Really.

FWIW, our cross-training class instructor (may be in his 50’s) is primarily a gymnast, who I think has done martial arts, lifting, etc, but has been running for about 3 years (not sure how much). He can do splits with both legs out horizontally, hands out to toes, and belly button almost on floor. And he can definitely kick. I don’t know how his distance endurance might be, but he out works most of us during the running part (20-40 min, running, skipping, jumping over mats, etc). I’m well beyond conversational pace, and he’s providing instruction in form as we go. Excessive flexibility like he has, I think from what I’ve read, may be a hindrance to running performance, but he is flexible *and* runs. Runners may have trouble with flexibility, but if a person is already flexible, I don’t think they necessary lose their flexibility, as long as they maintain the appropriate training. I think it’s a matter of how one blends the various forms of training to achieve one’s goals. In this case, I would think the person could certainly add aerobic activity that would help, assuming his endurance issue isn’t primarily neuromuscular, and I haven’t read much on that stuff to know. And some of that fatigue may be inability to clear lactic acid from those muscles. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

well i’m just wondering about health reasons… don’t most runners stop in the winter, or at least for a while? wouldn’t running in freezing conditions be bad for your muscles? that’s why i’m asking. i’m a dope about it and don’t know. – k i t z – now posting with a fever of 102 degrees. http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

Response:

Very true. Most Asian style martial arts require a high degree of flexibility. Running would have a negative impact on this. -Phil ? really?

No. Only long distance running may adversely affect your ‘arts as it will build more slow-twitch (endurance) muscle fibres into your legs. Two mile runs are beneficial (for Taekwondo in my experience). Do them as fast as you like. Surf

Response:

Very true. Most Asian style martial arts require a high degree of flexibility. Running would have a negative impact on this. -Phil ? really?

Yes. Really.

Response:

Running endurance and tae kwon do endurance aren’t the same, different muscle groups.

my instructor has said that running will help my sparring endurance. Wouldn’t it be better to spar more to get your endurance up for a match?

i don’t choose how often i spar. it’s up to the teacher, unfortunately. i would love to take all-sparring hour long classes, but the lower ranks would get NO benefit from that. If it’s weight you want to lose, wouldn’t a diet change be more beneficial?

my diet is almost completely ideal. exercise is important at this point. – k i t z – money causes AIDS – Acquired InDifference to Suffering syndrome. I know someone who has it. "i’m a taoist, i’m not supposed to be serious!" http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

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Finally, he gives some advice he’s qualified to give, how to be an idiot.

Response:

Very true. Most Asian style martial arts require a high degree of flexibility. Running would have a negative impact on this. -Phil

? really? – k i t z – money causes AIDS – Acquired InDifference to Suffering syndrome. I know someone who has it. "i’m a taoist, i’m not supposed to be serious!" http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

Response:

Re: am i an idiot?

I don’t know about you, but Donovan certainly is. Notice how he immediately pickedup on this thread?

Response:

Very true. Most Asian style martial arts require a high degree of flexibility. Running would have a negative impact on this. -Phil

Response:

Running endurance and tae kwon do endurance aren’t the same, different muscle groups. Wouldn’t it be better to spar more to get your endurance up for a match? If it’s weight you want to lose, wouldn’t a diet change be more beneficial? If the tournament is in the near future, a new running program isn’t going to shed the pounds away right away. Plus, running might make your legs to sore to get a good kick in… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i need to start running. i’m a blackbelt in taekwondo and i’ve got a tournament as well as a rank testing coming up, and my endurance during sparring is not nearly where i’d like it to be… plus i’d like to lose a couple of pounds before that tournament, just to make me feel better about how i look in my uniform. the question is… am i stupid for planning on beginning to run in the middle of december? i started running during the summer this last year and decided that i hated it and i quit… but i feel very determined this time. all i’m wondering is… how smart is this of me to do? any suggestions? i really do appreciate the advice. – k i t z – money causes AIDS – Acquired InDifference to Suffering syndrome. I know someone who has it. "i’m a taoist, i’m not supposed to be serious!" http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

Response:

i need to start running. i’m a blackbelt in taekwondo and i’ve got a tournament as well as a rank testing coming up, and my endurance during sparring is not nearly where i’d like it to be… plus i’d like to lose a couple of pounds before that tournament, just to make me feel better about how i look in my uniform. the question is… am i stupid for planning on beginning to run in the middle of december? i started running during the summer this last year and decided that i hated it and i quit… but i feel very determined this time. all i’m wondering is… how smart is this of me to do? any suggestions? i really do appreciate the advice.

The key to starting a running program is to go at an easy pace. Most people try to run quickly, and find themselves out of breath before they’ve run 400m, and conclude that they "can’t run". I don’t see anything wrong with starting in December as opposed to any other month. I’d recommend picking up a good running book and starting a well thought out program. Bob Glover’s book, "The Runners Handbook" is a good starting point ($12.57 on Amazon). As for your sparring — there are (at least) two things that play a substantial role in fatigue — aerobic conditioning and "economy" — being able to spar without using too much energy. The latter only will improve by practising sparring. With practice, you’ll be able to do it without tiring yourself out as much. For example, one thing you could try is sparring with an opponent, and try to wear your opponent down while avoiding tiring yourself out. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I’m sure your black belt looks lovely when you’re dancing in front of the bedroom mirror, with the wife’s clothes on.

um. i’m female, stupid. – k i t z – money causes AIDS – Acquired InDifference to Suffering syndrome. I know someone who has it. "i’m a taoist, i’m not supposed to be serious!" http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

Response:

I’m sure your black belt looks lovely when you’re dancing in front of the bedroom mirror, with the wife’s clothes on.

Response:

fall/winter running clothing

admin — Mon, 08 Sep 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Super performance and goretex or micro fleece or whatever never appealed to me. Call me 20th century, but I’ve always liked a good pair of cotton sweat pants and a sweat shirt. One of the reasons I don’t like the so-called performance stuff is because of all the dang noise the pants seem to make, especially the ones meant for bone-chilling weather. The places that sell the old-fashioned stuff seems to be more and more limited. What do y’all wear and where do you buy it? I went to my old standbys in nyc this weekend, Paragon and Eastern Mountain Sports, and they had an extremely limited selection of cotton stuff. And of course, road runner sports only carries the highest of the high tech.

Response:

OK, Hello "20th" Century….if it was good enough for Steve Prefontaine, it’s good enough for you after all. Personally…I wear the state of the art materials/gear for the season. As for the sound of goretex and the like tops and bottoms….you missing it. That "sound" is "music" to me….it’s rhythmn…..there’s "data" in that sound. I listen to my shoes hitting the ground…I listen to the "swoosh" of materials born from the friction of rubbing against each other….you can tell/learn a lot about your stride as you’re running by the sound. You’re missing it pal….there’s knowledge/joy/data/rhythm in all the "Sounds of gear, clothing and shoes"… Andrew….

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Cotton is terrible for an inner layer, IMO. It gets damp really quickly. I have one of those underarmour long sleeve tops and some running tights. For the rain, I also have a waterproof jacket (not goretex) I also like to protect my ears when it’s cold. A headband is a must-have. Don’t have any problems with clothing making too much noise. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Super performance and goretex or micro fleece or whatever never appealed to me. Call me 20th century, but I’ve always liked a good pair of cotton sweat pants and a sweat shirt.

If you can get by with cotton either you don’t sweat or you don’t do much distance. For my short runs, less than an hour I can get by in cotton sweat pants but not a cotton top. When I’m doing my longer runs I use state of the art clothes. I’m not going frostbite the boys to avoid a swish of the pants rubbing. One of the reasons I don’t like the so-called performance stuff is because of all the dang noise the pants seem to make, especially the ones meant for bone-chilling weather.

Noise aside, the first time there is rhime on your tallywhacker you will wish you spent the money. The places that sell the old-fashioned stuff seems to be more and more limited. What do y’all wear and where do you buy it? I went to my old standbys in nyc this weekend, Paragon and Eastern Mountain Sports, and they had an extremely limited selection of cotton stuff.

The light bulb should go off, cotton sucks and does not sell. And of course, road runner sports only carries the highest of the high tech.

I will agree that the techy stuff has a high price and is probably inflated. You have some control over price if you buy off season. If you looking now with cool/cold weather coming, you will pay top dollar. About Feb/Mar the fire sales start. Now is the time to buy shorts ans singlets. -DougF

Response:

Noise in your pants? I can’t imagine that any problem in your pants could be anything but a tiny one.

Response:

Not sure what you’re wearing that made noise, but I use Sporthill xc pants – somewhat pricey (but one of those proverbial "priceless" things) but for those that run year round in Alaska, they are a great starting outer layer, work well for xc skiing and mt biking, and I can’t hear them. They are a stretch material, but you don’t buy them tight like tights. In cold weather, I layer either power-dri tights (down to 0F or so) or light fleece pants (down to -20F) under them. That’s as cold as I’ve used them so far and the powerdry tights might be able to go down farther – didn’t have weather last "winter" for testing. FWIW, I get cold easily. http://www.sporthill.com/ I got mine at my local running store, but REI had them a little cheaper. I’ve looked at SportHill tops, but don’t care for their design. While they advertise to 35mph winds, they don’t come anywhere near that for me. That’s one reason why I layer. If the weather is really windy (30-50mph, below freezing) or wet, I will wear a shell over them. I have some old wind pants (versatech, I think) that are quiet, but not waterproof. Last winter I got Marmot precip jacket and full-zip pants (to be able to ventilate) that I generally take with me on all cold runs over about 50 min in winter. They *are* noisy, but if I get caught on a trail in a driving rain or the wind comes up, I probably won’t hear them over the wind or rain, and they are good emergency gear. BUT they don’t breathe. They’re also pretty durable. I wiped out on some rocks last winter – drew blood on my knee, but not a scratch that I ever found to my Sporthills Supplex nylon is pretty quiet, and I think there’s some other nylons out there now that are fairly quiet. I use something like that as my outer layer most of the time – unless really windy or raining. My Gore-tex tops aren’t too noisy, but I’ve hesitated buying bottoms like that because of the additional noise on legs. Also, I don’t think they stretch – stretchable material is really nice for biking and running. The places that sell the old-fashioned stuff seems to be more and more limited.

Your local Wal-Mart probably has enough cotton sweats to float a boat (ours does). I think CampMor usually has cotton, but also has a good selection of synthetics. Most of my synthetic tops (base and insulating layers) have come from CampMor and are quiet. What do y’all wear and where do you buy it? I went to my old standbys in nyc this weekend, Paragon and Eastern Mountain Sports, and they had an extremely limited selection of cotton stuff.

Have you heard the phrase "cotton kills" for winter? The exception is if you’re caught in a fire in all your synthetics, you’ve got a severe problem. There’s a reason why cotton doesn’t sell for winter wear, although I’m still amazed at how hard it is to find a good non-down winter parka. Most down is also pretty useless when wet, which can happen if caught in overflow. And of course, road runner sports only carries the highest of the high tech.

My $.02 and personal rant. Most (not all, but I haven’t found the exception yet) running gear (at least that found in places like RRS or local running store) seems to be made for people that only run for short periods of time in conditions that aren’t too extreme. The hoods, if present, even on Gore-tex, look like something on a cheap Wal-Mart shell. You can’t draw the hood up around your face very tightly without pulling the whole jacket up. (40% of your body heat is lost through head and neck.) I don’t usually run that way (prefer wool watch hat or ear band so I can hear noises – traffic, people, animals), but it’s good backup if the weather takes a turn for the worse or if I have a problem and have to hobble home. If I use a running-store type jacket in the winter, I take a Windstopper face mask with me to make up for lack of decent hood. Even decent hoods can be rolled up in a collar so it’s not in the way until you need it. Other manufacturers have managed to do it. In other running e-groups where many people usually run longer and more on trails (read: are in deep sh*t if not properly prepared), it seems like most people use lightweight hiking gear. Outdoor stores seem to be the better place to find running gear for subzero F temperatures, IMHO. And stores like CampMore have reasonably priced stuff. end rant. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

Chicago this Sunday

admin — Wed, 03 Oct 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Heck, you could run naked in Chicago in the morning and it wouldn’t make a difference. With 37,500 registered the race will be packed. What a waste. Too bad they sold out for the almighty buck. It was actually a good race a few years ago. When I ran it last it was just over 20,000 and still packed for the first 7 to 10 miles. I can’t even imagine 37,500. Never again. I’m going for smaller races from now on. Real races, not publicity stunts. Definetely run in the shorts, and wear a normal coolmax-type tee shirt with a warm-ish throwaway sweater on overtop that you can toss once you warm up. That may be 2 miles into the marathon, or 10, depending on how you feel at that time. Trust me, do NOT wear tights. The sweater will be more than sufficient.

– Gary Kopycinski Frodo Lives!!!

Response:

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand your comment. The Chicago Marathon was one of the last big open marathons – no participant cutoffs, no qualifying, anyone could run. That’s the chief reason so many people want to run it now – you can get in easily, and more advanced runners can use it to qualify for closed races (a co-worker used it to qualify for Boston last year). I don’t like that they’ve set a limit, but having run in it when it hit over 30,000 I can see why they would. But I don’t see how they’ve "sold out." They should have set the cutoff at a much lower level. Obviously the time of "open marathons" is past. 37,500 is way too high, IMO. I told that to one of the directors yesterday.

I can’t find the number now, but they only ended up with 31,??? runners. I think they knew they would have a number of people that registered and then could not run for some reason, and that might be why the cap looked high. The two biggest bottle necks I remember were the gear check area and then getting your finishing line photo. People were walking both directions and ended up causing one heck of a jam. On the Lake side they did have less of a jam by keeping all the non-runners out of the area, but they were having trouble doing that. I would be hard to avoid a jam of people because try to tell people exit that way not this way. ;-) It was still fun, and it was still possible to navigate through the crowd because it did move. Last year, I was a spectator and you would get other spectators just shoving their way through everybody else. I don’t remember seeing that happen this year. In other words, it actually looked better than last year. Roger

Response:

Hey All, My news server went down so I missed a bunch of replies to my original message and had to read them on Google. Anyway, I had hurt my foot a month ago running RnR Half marathon in VA Beach, and between that race and Chicago, only managed one long run, a 12 miler which ended when my plantar fascia flared up again. So ending up with a DNF in Chicago was a very real concern to me. I also caught some sniffles at a very cold movie theater on the night before the race, and that concerned me a little bit. I had heard someone say that the temp at the start of the race was 37 F. I was pretty cold and waited till the last minute to take off my sweats. But I ran the whole race in shorts and a (dri-fit) t-shirt. I also had a pair of disposable gloves, which were great. I bought them for $1.50 / pair at a previous race expo. Now I wish I had put them in my pocket instead of throwing them away. My one previous marathon was Green Bay, just a few months ago in June. I ran 4:07:59. This time I was just hoping for a sub 4 hour time. It turns out I ran a 3:39:34. That’s more than 28 minutes faster than I ran just 3 months ago. I’m still in shock that I did it. My training was unspectacular (just one speedwork session since the previous marathon), I was sleep deprived, not to mention the other problems that I wrote in the beginning of this post. But I am very satisfied and very happy with my time and never imagined that I would even come close to the time I ran. I would say that the biggest factor, by far, was the weather. After mile 2, I never felt cold, and never even felt hot. It was perfect. I also tried the glycogen depletion diet in the week before the race. I had no carbs from Mon-Wed, ran on Monday and Wed., and then tried to load up on carbs from Thurs – Sat. It’s my first time trying it and I can’t say that I can compare its effectiveness to a regular pre-marathon diet, but I didn’t hit the wall during the race and managed to run the whole way through without taking any walk breaks. So…in short, I’m extremely happy with my time, and I really enjoyed Chicago. I’m impressed at how well organized it was. Thanks for reading, Mike

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Hea Doug, I will not tell, if you don’t. See you on the trail, Chuck

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I moved over to running Trail Ultras to avoid the pavement pounding with thousands of others. Personally I’d much rather run with a couple of hundred folks (if that many) in the quiet and remote woods……no hotel problems, no traffic problems. Dirt isn’t for everyone, but that’s ok with me.

Chuck, please do not let this out. My last race had 100 and it was perfect. During my last race, exclusive of the aid stations I did not see another runner for 20 miles. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

They should have set the cutoff at a much lower level. Obviously the time of "open marathons" is past. 37,500 is way too high, IMO. I told that to one of the directors yesterday. — Gary Kopycinski Frodo Lives!!!

Response:

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand your comment. The Chicago Marathon was one of the last big open marathons – no participant cutoffs, no qualifying, anyone could run. That’s the chief reason so many people want to run it now – you can get in easily, and more advanced runners can use it to qualify for closed races (a co-worker used it to qualify for Boston last year). I don’t like that they’ve set a limit, but having run in it when it hit over 30,000 I can see why they would. But I don’t see how they’ve "sold out." Emanuel "Everybody wants a normal life and a cool car; most people settle for the car." Chris Titus http://home.att.net/~epbrown01/1966-rolls.jpg http://home.att.net/~epbrown01/1983-porsche.jpg

Response:

<< When I ran it last it was just over 20,000 and still packed for the first 7 to 10 miles. I can’t even imagine 37,500. Never again. I’m going for smaller races from now on. Real races, not publicity stunts. I moved over to running Trail Ultras to avoid the pavement pounding with thousands of others. Personally I’d much rather run with a couple of hundred folks (if that many) in the quiet and remote woods……no hotel problems, no traffic problems. Dirt isn’t for everyone, but that’s ok with me. Chuck Gulker (Dublin, Ohio)

Response:

Marisa, You are correct. Wear a disposable shirt and it will be no problem. There are too many runners to pick out numbers. There was a ton of discarded running clothing at last years Chicago Marathon. I even saw a bunch of CD players and cassette players. There were probably some MP3 players too. If someone asks to see your number, show it to them, but there won’t be a problem. Good luck at Chicago! Troy

Response:

I had thought about just wearing a cheap long sleeve shirt for the beginning (discarding it after a few miles). But the brochure said that race numbers must be visible at all times, so I’m not sure how well layers would work out.

Maybe you could pin your number to your shorts rather than your shirt. I see lots of people do that. I got one of those race number belts for the same reason. — Brian P. Baresch Lawrence, Kansas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

Response:

I’ll be shooting for something between 3:25 and 5:59.

I would hate waiting for you, at different mile markers! With your time prediction, a friend would be exhausted. Could you imagine the concentration required at each viewing. Last year was tough, and our friends came through within 5 minutes of their projected pace. It was extremely difficult finding them, with thousands of runners. Good Luck Roger. I’m losing track of your marathons run! Tell us who you see at the expo. Troy, Ha ha, I don’t think I’ll have anybody waiting for me anywhere. Besides, I plan to be equipped with a cell phone, with auto-answer and a headset on this Marathon, just like I did on my first half Marathon this year. I might take the camera to the expo, but I don’t know if I’ll run with it yet. Thanks, Roger – gotta eat –

Response:

Many people running Twin Cities Marathon (last year it was about 30F at the start — looks like much the same this year) opted for Hefty Trash bags (the yard and garden size) for a temporary garment to keep warm at the start – just be sure to punch an opening for your head and arms! Old socks work fine as mittens to get you started too.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About the weather … any suggestions for racing clothing? I’ve been training in warmer weather, so the only things I’m used to are shorts and long sports bras/singlets. I’m wary of trying new clothes on race day. I had thought about just wearing a cheap long sleeve shirt for the beginning (discarding it after a few miles). But the brochure said that race numbers must be visible at all times, so I’m not sure how well layers would work out. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Marisa –

Response:

Thanks everyone that replied so far. I’ve got another clothing question now that I am up in Chicago. Just how cold is it going to be along the course? I’m wondering if I should run in my shorts as planned, or run in my running tights. I brought both with me, but am not sure what would be best for this weather. I figure I can layer tops, as I can easily remove those while running. The bottoms are what’s throwing me. I used to run cross country up through December, and would run in just singlet and shorts. But that was for only a 5K, and I was running considerably faster than I will be on Sunday (used to run sub-21 5K, looking to run around 4:30 for marathon). Any tips from those more familiar with Chicago weather would be greatly appreciated!! And good luck to everyone! Marisa –

Response:

I just checked the Chicago weather report for tomorrow morning. Definetely run in the shorts, and wear a normal coolmax-type tee shirt with a warm-ish throwaway sweater on overtop that you can toss once you warm up. That may be 2 miles into the marathon, or 10, depending on how you feel at that time. Trust me, do NOT wear tights. The sweater will be more than sufficient. Good luck to you!! — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks everyone that replied so far. I’ve got another clothing question now that I am up in Chicago. Just how cold is it going to be along the course? I’m wondering if I should run in my shorts as planned, or run in my running tights. I brought both with me, but am not sure what would be best for this weather. I figure I can layer tops, as I can easily remove those while running. The bottoms are what’s throwing me. I used to run cross country up through December, and would run in just singlet and shorts. But that was for only a 5K, and I was running considerably faster than I will be on Sunday (used to run sub-21 5K, looking to run around 4:30 for marathon). Any tips from those more familiar with Chicago weather would be greatly appreciated!! And good luck to everyone! Marisa –

Response:

Marisa, It will be a little cooler, at the start than I was hoping for. I think I’m going to wear a 50 gallon trash bag until the race starts. I plan to wear gloves and put them in the elastic holding up my shorts if they get too warm. BTW I’ve only done one sub 21 minute 5k in my life, so far that is. Good luck tomorrow, Roger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks everyone that replied so far. I’ve got another clothing question now that I am up in Chicago. Just how cold is it going to be along the course? I’m wondering if I should run in my shorts as planned, or run in my running tights. I brought both with me, but am not sure what would be best for this weather. I figure I can layer tops, as I can easily remove those while running. The bottoms are what’s throwing me. I used to run cross country up through December, and would run in just singlet and shorts. But that was for only a 5K, and I was running considerably faster than I will be on Sunday (used to run sub-21 5K, looking to run around 4:30 for marathon). Any tips from those more familiar with Chicago weather would be greatly appreciated!! And good luck to everyone! Marisa –

Response:

I’ll be shooting for something between 3:25 and 5:59.

Response:

About the weather … any suggestions for racing clothing? I’ve been training in warmer weather, so the only things I’m used to are shorts and long sports bras/singlets. I’m wary of trying new clothes on race day. I had thought about just wearing a cheap long sleeve shirt for the beginning (discarding it after a few miles). But the brochure said that race numbers must be visible at all times, so I’m not sure how well layers would work out. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Marisa –

Response:

I would at least get a pair of cheap cotton gloves. Perhaps they will have some at the Expo. Then you can either throw them into the crowd when you warm up. Roger – Driving to Chicago tomorrow – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About the weather … any suggestions for racing clothing? I’ve been training in warmer weather, so the only things I’m used to are shorts and long sports bras/singlets. I’m wary of trying new clothes on race day. I had thought about just wearing a cheap long sleeve shirt for the beginning (discarding it after a few miles). But the brochure said that race numbers must be visible at all times, so I’m not sure how well layers would work out. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Marisa –

Response:

It is to me, too. The last time it was in the 50’s was 23 May (and that was the low). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good luck to everyone running Chicago this Sunday! Look for me. I’ll be wearing grey shorts. That should be enough to pick me out of the crowd Best of luck, Mike! I hope you do well. I think the weather there was nice today but it looks like it’s going to be very cold on Sunday (high in the low 50’s). That’s COLD to you? (let alone "very"??)? — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel. I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

Response:

Good luck to everyone running Chicago this Sunday! Look for me. I’ll be wearing grey shorts. That should be enough to pick me out of the crowd

Best of luck, Mike! I hope you do well. I think the weather there was nice today but it looks like it’s going to be very cold on Sunday (high in the low 50’s).

That’s COLD to you? (let alone "very"??)? — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

I think the weather there was nice today but it looks like it’s going to be very cold on Sunday (high in the low 50’s). That’s COLD to you? (let alone "very"??)?

Well, let’s be fair. That’s the temp (Fahrenheit, of course) it’ll probably be at 4pm. At 8am it’ll probably be more like 30. I’d call that cold since most of my training to date has been in 60-80 degree weather. But then I’m even farther south than Chicago. Good luck, all. — Brian P. Baresch Lawrence, Kansas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

Response:

Hi, Good luck to everyone running Chicago this Sunday! Look for me. I’ll be wearing grey shorts. That should be enough to pick me out of the crowd I think the weather there was nice today but it looks like it’s going to be very cold on Sunday (high in the low 50’s).

Mike. I hope it will be in the low 50’s. I would hate to see if any warmer than that. I haven’t heard any mention of rain either, so it sounds like it will be perfect weather. I’m picking up my packet on Friday so I can avoid so much walking on Saturday. I’ll be shooting for something between 3:25 and 5:59. BTW what are you shooting for? Have fun, Roger

Response:

QUESTION: Increasing daily mileage

admin — Wed, 03 Jan 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Happy New Year, gang: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am gradually increasing my long runs…. adding about five minutes every two weeks or so. Whatever feels comfortable. I’m currently at 1:20, and am shooting for around 1:45, my "goal" time for a half marathon in May. Then I’ll see about moving beyond that. My real question is: given the above mentioned increases, how should I (or should I at all?) increase the length of my other daily runs? I hear about people running for an hour each day…. that’s something I’d like to get to sometime, but I’m in no hurry. Do I take my long run to a certain point, leave it there, and then begin to increase the lengths of my other runs (keeping in mind the 10% rule) ? I currently run 30 – 40 minutes each day, and during *my* serious race training, will go up to 45 minutes for one session per week, the 2nd longest run of the week. Thanks for any advice, Cam (Christmas was kind to me…. lots of new running clothing…. woohoo!)

Response:

Happy New Year, gang: I am gradually increasing my long runs…. adding about five minutes every two weeks or so. Whatever feels comfortable. I’m currently at 1:20, and am shooting for around 1:45, my "goal" time for a half marathon in May. Then I’ll see about moving beyond that.

May… That’s, umm, five months from now… Sounds like you’re right on track to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My real question is: given the above mentioned increases, how should I (or should I at all?) increase the length of my other daily runs? I hear about people running for an hour each day…. that’s something I’d like to get to sometime, but I’m in no hurry. Do I take my long run to a certain point, leave it there, and then begin to increase the lengths of my other runs (keeping in mind the 10% rule) ? I currently run 30 – 40 minutes each day, and during *my* serious race training, will go up to 45 minutes for one session per week, the 2nd longest run of the week. Thanks for any advice, Cam (Christmas was kind to me…. lots of new running clothing…. woohoo!)

I like to throw in some higher intensity running as the training cycle approaches the competitive season. Long runs are good for establishing a base, but they essentially focus on aerobic conditioning. You are training for the half-marathon distance. A good performance at this distance means running very near your lactate threshold over the entire distance, and so training designed to push back lactate threshold should be useful. Perhaps one day per week, you could throw in some tempo runs, hills, or medium distance intervals (repeat 1000m – 3000m). This has the added attraction of variety and reduced risk of overuse injury.

Response:

QUESTION: Increasing daily mileage

admin — Wed, 03 Jan 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Response:

Increasing mileage

admin — Mon, 01 Jan 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Currently I am at 22 miles per week and would like to increase it to 35 mpw. What is the best approach to increasing weekly mileage. Thanks

Response:

Increase the weekly mileage slowly so that you never add more than 10% from one week to another. Then every fourth week, cut the mileage back to a level of about 2 weeks prior. Also do not increase the length of your longest run by more than 10% of the previous week’s long run. I also subscribe that the long run should not be more than half the week’s total mileage. Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Currently I am at 22 miles per week and would like to increase it to 35 mpw. What is the best approach to increasing weekly mileage. Thanks

Response:

Currently I am at 22 miles per week and would like to increase it to 35 mpw. What is the best approach to increasing weekly mileage. Thanks

Opinion only. Increase weekly milage 10% (or so) each week for 3 weeks. The next week back off to the previous week’s total mileage, and possibly reduce intensity a bit, in order to consolidate gains made. Then repeat until the desired target is reached. If not progressing well, at any time, admit it and stop increasing mileage until comfortable with the current mileage. Just proceed with caution. Some will say add 10% per week until you’ve reached the goal. That might work – might not. But, probably not worth the risk. Example: Current – 22 mpw Wk 1 – 24 mpw (about 10%) Wk 2 – 27 mpw (about 12%) Wk 3 – 30 mpw (about 10%) Wk 4 – 27 mpw ( consolidation) Wk 5 – 30 mpw ( as for wk 3) Wk 6 – 33 mpw Wk 7 – 35mpw (goal mileage) As you can see – it doesn’t take long, even when adding time to consolidate gains. HTH Denny Anderson To ERR is human… to ZIN, divine!

Response:

Maybe try the brand ’slowFe’. It is the only one my grandma can take without stomach upset. Jenn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 80 miles/week is a ton of running. You’re pretty much up there with the elite runners in terms of mileage. If you are tired, you may be suffering from running-induced anemia. A blood test should tell you the story. A low hematocrit level indicates overtraining. Another indication is an elevated resting heart rate. I’m getting a blood test next week. I’ve been taking iron pills 2 times per week, but they make me constipated! My heart rate has stayed around 38 bpm. I use my heart rate monitor once per day, to measure my resting heart rate! I do this in the morning, when I wake up. Isn’t there some form of iron that doesn’t cause stomach problems? I think I’ve read something on this, but I don’t know much about it. Thanks, Troy

Response:

Yeah, it is called liver. Comes from animals. Slice, dip in milk/egg then flour, fry with onions. Some people like it, others HATE it. — Regards, Dave

Oh, I really hate liver! I can remember my mother eating it for iron, when I was just a little child. It was a really big fad in the 70’s. I have some now, that I will be throwing out, or giving away. Troy

Response:

Well, they say that lean meat (especially red meat) is the best source, if you can find some that’s not doped up. But then again, who are "they" anyway? 38 sounds like an excellent RHR.

I just bought a whole cow, from my neighbor. It was built without any hormones, so I will be eating more red meat! I even watched them kill it, so I know it’s fresh. Troy

Response:

Maybe try the brand ’slowFe’. It is the only one my grandma can take without stomach upset. Jenn

Thanks Jenn! That’s what I read about. Isn’t it time-released? I’ll have to try it if I’m anemic. Thanks, Troy

Response:

I’m getting a blood test next week. I’ve been taking iron pills 2 times per week, but they make me constipated! My heart rate has stayed around 38 bpm. I use my heart rate monitor once per day, to measure my resting heart rate! I do this in the morning, when I wake up. Isn’t there some form of iron that doesn’t cause stomach problems? I think I’ve read something on this, but I don’t know much about it.

i remember when i was pregnant and anaemic, i had similar reactions to iron tablets.. so was put on a course of injections of iron. worked a treat. t

Response:

Yeah, it is called liver. Comes from animals. Slice, dip in milk/egg then flour, fry with onions. Some people like it, others HATE it.

There is also lots of iron in blood. I eat quite often food that could be translated as bloodpancakes. I don

Good Morning

admin — Sat, 05 Aug 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I think it was PU’s Jeff who responded to a (lack of) motivation thread by saying something like, "Just get out and run." Too true. — Patrick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am always amazed when the days when I am pushing my unmotivated self out the door, turn out to be the best runs. I had one of those this morning! Cheers! April

Response:

Life is good, eh Patrick? Mary

Response:

I am always amazed when the days when I am pushing my unmotivated self out the door, turn out to be the best runs. I had one of those this morning! Cheers! April

Response:

Today was supposed to be an off day. Long, long week, in every sense. The beef was thawed. It had to get into a stew by tonight or it might go bad. Into the pot with chopped onions, garlic, carrots, potatoes, rotelle, and some red wine. Dense, mmm. It boiled, I sniffed. I turned down the heat. Maybe a run? No watch, no plan, not even my regular running clothing. Just a quick jaunt around the block. Just enough to get a little sweat going. Two or three miles, but did that really matter? I was done almost before I even realized that I had started. It was terrific. I ran by a frail looking white-haired guy walking a dog who could have assuredly broken free from his master. The guy confidently pulled back on the dog’s leash, shortening the dog’s striking range and effectively showing it who was boss. With a wink and a wave he said to me in a relaxed and cheerful voice, "Keep up the good work." A blue sunny sky, warm gentle breeze, and the copious rain of the past week almost gave this August Saturday morning a springtime feel. The grass was greener, flowers were blooming, and the world seemed to be a little more optimistic. Sometimes a quickie is just what one needs. I got back; water was nice. A pot of yummy on my stove, a little run in my book, and a glance at the kitchen clock. 10:15am. Oh yes. "Keep up the good work." Patrick — Patrick

Response:

Trade: Dog Behavior Advice for Cold Weather Running Clothing Recommendations?

admin — Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi Everyone. I spent most of my time on the rec.pets.dogs.behavior newsgroup. I hate it when people post a question to which the answer is only several posts earlier. So I searched the posts on this newsgroup and although I did see posts about the cold weather, I couldn’t find any about running clothing for extreme cold weather conditions. It’s -33 here in NYC. Any recommendations? Website links, etc.? For your time I will gladly answer any dog behavior related questions should you be in need of same. Thanks. — Adrienne Gremlin, Bruno, Lewis, Yoko, Freneau John Muir, "Stickeen: The Story of a Dog" http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/writings/stickeen/the_sto… (In memory of Pepe, Pepper, Cinder, Rascal, Tucker, Max, Hubble and Puppy)

Response:

Well, here are some suggestions I posted a couple of months ago. Not everyone agreed, but this is conventional wisdom, and nobody that runs below disagreed publicly. Some of this stuff doesn’t apply if one believes cold = 50 degrees. Okay, here are the important parts of cold weather running including gear and strategies. These tips are useful for runs of 2-20 miles in cold, nasty, winter weather. Less than 2 miles, you could probably run naked and still survive. 1. Know the temperature and the forecast for your run. Things can change quickly but running at 15 degrees is very different from running at 35 degrees. 2. The three areas that are the biggest issue for keeping warm are head, hands, and privates. 3. When looking at gear, don