Run Run Away

Question:

I’m sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time of it Tony. After trying to get back to work for nearly a year at half time, I know just how hard it is. I never made it even though it was an office job where I wasn’t on my feet all day. The half day just "killed" me mentally. I hope that you have better success than I did in this regard. Standing and working on concrete for some reason is the absolute worst surface to be subjected to. The best success that I had in that regard was to wear double soled safety work boots. It wasn’t perfect but it sure was an improvement over casual shoes. Good luck Tony — Ron P Member of the invisible generation

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Tono, I’m glad you were assertive and called the case workers.  Let them know of your dilemma.  They may be able to find you a job where you can sit more often.  Possibly a parking lot attendant? I believe the only place to work before they send you to school is at the Goodwill.  I’ll have to ask them how they would accommodate someone in a wheelchair? There are no parking lots attendants here, but I’m sure there is down in Gatlinburg.  Although I’d probably fall asleep at a job like that. Are you standing on concrete floors most of the time?  Is it damp in your environment?  These 2 factors affect my body. Yes to the concrete, no to the dampness. Does Alleve or any ibuprofen help with the pain? I honestly don’t recall a single time were any OTC pain meds helped me. Even with headaches, or any pain, I’ve never noticed a decrease in pain. I do have new "gells" in my sneakers. Please keep us updated. I’m planning on going to work on Monday.  Hopefully the one case worker will be there to do the evaluation, she was sick last week but never took the time to call me.  I think I have a check waiting for me, it should be about $25!  Wow!  I can retire! I’m waiting to see what kind of raise I get and now I’ll have to wait another 2 weeks until that paycheck and the back pay. Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Tennessee Tony schreef: I just talked to both of the case workers and things don’t look good. To qualify for any of the free Vo-Tech or college courses I have to show that I can work a minimum of 30 hours a week.  But they will ask if I can use a stool for part of the work, which will without a doubt slow me down. Then to make things worse, the courses themselves are full time, they don’t pay for part time or evening courses.

*%&$#!!!! I’m sorry to hear of your adversity. All I can do for now is to stay at the Goodwill and hope I can build up more stamina.  I could lower my med dosages and see what happens?

I think that might be a bad idea if the meds work well. The drawbacks might outweigh the advantages if any. Luckily I have an appointment with my therapist today.  Driving at high speeds and looking for big trees is sounding more attractive again.

Please take care, Tony. You’re our friend, we need you here. Your daughter needs you too. I understands how you feel but there will definitely come up a better solution for this problem. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Chip schreef: Hi Tony, Have you considered being self-employed again? You seemed to do well when you were a handyman. And you liked fixing things. Chip

Not a bad idea at all IMO. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <gently snipped ::All I can do for now is to stay at the Goodwill and hope I can build up ::more stamina.  I could lower my med dosages and see what happens? :: ::Luckily I have an appointment with my therapist today.  Driving at high ::speeds and looking for big trees is sounding more attractive again. Dear Tony, I’m really sorry that this isn’t working out well. No job is worth this much pain and suffering. Hopefully your therapist will give you some good advice and support. (((((Tony)))))

It’s not the job I’m upset about, it’s the entire program.  I thought I was going to get some free schooling, and maybe a big change in my life. Anyway, I’m feeling a little better. Thanks, Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

((((((Tono)))))) Don’t be too hard on yourself.  Things WILL work out… smiles, Elise

I know things will work out.  They will either work out well or work out shitty, or maybe somewhere in the middle? For now I’m still going to go to work at the goodwill, and keep attempting to increase my hours.  I’ll see what happens. Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, One day at a time…  Keep your caseworker informed of how you are feeling and maybe they will find a different job for you.  We never know what the future holds… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ((((((Tono)))))) Don’t be too hard on yourself.  Things WILL work out… smiles, Elise I know things will work out.  They will either work out well or work out shitty, or maybe somewhere in the middle? For now I’m still going to go to work at the goodwill, and keep attempting to increase my hours.  I’ll see what happens. Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. I had been much better, but now just standing can be a painful task again.  At work, it’s not always pain, but often the feeling like my knees will just collapse, and if it happens I hope the knee bends the proper way and not backward like it feels could happen! Oh, I’ve been putting in 5 to 5.5 hours three days a week.  Yes, that’s only 16.5 hours a week total and it’s killing me.  I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours before going to work, yet while at work 1/2 a pot of coffee doesn’t seem to have any effect on me anymore?  The whole time at work I feel like I could just curl up anywhere and sleep. I have no idea what happens if I can’t continue, but I do have calls in to 2 different case workers so we can see what options I have. This doesn’t even get into the one employee I have to deal with, she may drive me further out of my mind than I already am. Tired, Tony — The charter is available at:http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Hi Tony: Sooooo sorry you are having to go thru this. Have you tried those knee brace ace-type bandages?  Just a thot. Is the work you’re doing boring enough to make you want to sleep or do you think the meds. are causing that condition.  I know that when I worked and felt bored, I sometimes would nod off (altho, that would not be a good thang for you since you’re standing while working <g). I sure hope things improve for you. -frizz — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Sorry for top posting but its a brief message. That doesn’t sound too good Tony. Can you arrange to work less hours.

No.  In fact I have to get up to 30 hours a week before they will give me the schooling. Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. I had been much better, but now just standing can be a painful task again.  At work, it’s not always pain, but often the feeling like my knees will just collapse, and if it happens I hope the knee bends the proper way and not backward like it feels could happen! Oh, I’ve been putting in 5 to 5.5 hours three days a week.  Yes, that’s only 16.5 hours a week total and it’s killing me.  I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours before going to work, yet while at work 1/2 a pot of coffee doesn’t seem to have any effect on me anymore?  The whole time at work I feel like I could just curl up anywhere and sleep. I have no idea what happens if I can’t continue, but I do have calls in to 2 different case workers so we can see what options I have. This doesn’t even get into the one employee I have to deal with, she may drive me further out of my mind than I already am. Tired, Tony Tony, I have a problem, not standing still, but walking all day long on a job with no place to sit down. Perhaps  you Rehab Counselor can help you to get a stool or something. A doctor could back you up on the pain part, if you make an appointment. You may need a job that is at least partially, if not all – a sit down job. Good luck

Thanks.  For now I’m going to keep trying, and my case worker will ask about getting a stool for me. Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. I had been much better, but now just standing can be a painful task again.  At work, it’s not always pain, but often the feeling like my knees will just collapse, and if it happens I hope the knee bends the proper way and not backward like it feels could happen! Oh, I’ve been putting in 5 to 5.5 hours three days a week.  Yes, that’s only 16.5 hours a week total and it’s killing me.  I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours before going to work, yet while at work 1/2 a pot of coffee doesn’t seem to have any effect on me anymore?  The whole time at work I feel like I could just curl up anywhere and sleep. I have no idea what happens if I can’t continue, but I do have calls in to 2 different case workers so we can see what options I have. This doesn’t even get into the one employee I have to deal with, she may drive me further out of my mind than I already am. Tired, Tony Hi Tony: Sooooo sorry you are having to go thru this. Have you tried those knee brace ace-type bandages?  Just a thot.

I’ve tried them before.  The only way they seem to help me is when they are on too tight and my lower legs go numb.  I’ve tried them looser and they just don’t do anything. Is the work you’re doing boring enough to make you want to sleep or do you think the meds. are causing that condition.

Both, actually with a seperate diagnosis of Fibromyalgia, I’ve dealt with fatigue for over 30 years.  Then combine it with the meds, and the boring job…..  I know that when I worked and felt bored, I sometimes would nod off (altho, that would not be a good thang for you since you’re standing while working <g). I sure hope things improve for you.

Thanks Friz — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, I’m glad you were assertive and called the case workers.  Let them know of your dilemma.  They may be able to find you a job where you can sit more often.  Possibly a parking lot attendant?

I believe the only place to work before they send you to school is at the Goodwill.  I’ll have to ask them how they would accommodate someone in a wheelchair? There are no parking lots attendants here, but I’m sure there is down in Gatlinburg.  Although I’d probably fall asleep at a job like that. Are you standing on concrete floors most of the time?  Is it damp in your environment?  These 2 factors affect my body.

Yes to the concrete, no to the dampness. Does Alleve or any ibuprofen help with the pain?

I honestly don’t recall a single time were any OTC pain meds helped me.   Even with headaches, or any pain, I’ve never noticed a decrease in pain. I do have new "gells" in my sneakers. Please keep us updated.

I’m planning on going to work on Monday.  Hopefully the one case worker will be there to do the evaluation, she was sick last week but never took the time to call me.  I think I have a check waiting for me, it should be about $25!  Wow!  I can retire! I’m waiting to see what kind of raise I get and now I’ll have to wait another 2 weeks until that paycheck and the back pay. Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tennessee Tony schreef: I just talked to both of the case workers and things don’t look good. To qualify for any of the free Vo-Tech or college courses I have to show that I can work a minimum of 30 hours a week.  But they will ask if I can use a stool for part of the work, which will without a doubt slow me down. Then to make things worse, the courses themselves are full time, they don’t pay for part time or evening courses. *%&$#!!!! I’m sorry to hear of your adversity. All I can do for now is to stay at the Goodwill and hope I can build up more stamina.  I could lower my med dosages and see what happens? I think that might be a bad idea if the meds work well. The drawbacks might outweigh the advantages if any.

I’m due for a visit to the local psych ward anyway.  I’ve never been there.  ;-) Well maybe not.  LOL!  One guy at AA meetings that has been there calls it the "Nervous Hospital".  Cracks me up every time I hear it! Luckily I have an appointment with my therapist today.  Driving at high speeds and looking for big trees is sounding more attractive again. Please take care, Tony. You’re our friend, we need you here. Your daughter needs you too. I understands how you feel but there will definitely come up a better solution for this problem.

I know, and thanks.  I’m better now but to give you an idea how my mind works, (scary!) I had decided I couldn’t harm myself anywhere near the birth of my grandchild so the two wouldn’t be associated together for years to come.  That was then.  Now, seriously I’m OK. Thanks again, Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, One day at a time…  Keep your caseworker informed of how you are feeling and maybe they will find a different job for you.  We never know what the future holds…

No, they only deal with the Goodwill for this program. Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Chip schreef: Hi Tony, Have you considered being self-employed again? You seemed to do well when you were a handyman. And you liked fixing things. Chip Not a bad idea at all IMO.

I mentioned computer repair at an AA meeting and people thought it sounded good.  I don’t need or want full time.  I just need something to get me out of debt and hopefully to replace the savings I’ve spent since living here. Maybe combine it with some other work also, like cutting grass in the summer. Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Tony, Have you considered being self-employed again?

Yes, but on a much smaller scale than my old business. You seemed to do well when you were a handyman. And you liked fixing things. Chip

I was considering this before.  More recently with free schooling I had been considering being a computer tech and was looking at the vo-tech course for that class.  I already build and repair my own PC’s, so maybe I could get away with some more informal training mostly on software issues and a few of the proper tools.  The hardware repair is simple in todays throw away world.  I used to repair the electronics on circuit boards, down to the individual components, but for PC’s, you just throw it away and install a new one. I’m not sure about the handyman thing.  I’ve done construction work/repairs for people I know, but when they referred a friend to me, I went into panic and told them that I don’t have the time right now. Then when they called again later, I was still too busy (doing nothing). And in every town there seems to be a handyman who takes in all kinds of junk lawn mowers, fixes the better ones up and sells them cheap.  I’m used to those kind of repairs having 2 little garden tractors/lawn mowers from 1970 and working on my parents lawn mowers at a very young age.  Last summer I used one of the 37 year old lawn mowers to cut the grass all summer long.  I just like to make old things work.  I would have to take care not turning my place into a lawn mower junk yard! Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. I had been much better, but now just standing can be a painful task again. At work, it’s not always pain, but often the feeling like my knees will just collapse, and if it happens I hope the knee bends the proper way and not backward like it feels could happen! Oh, I’ve been putting in 5 to 5.5 hours three days a week.  Yes, that’s only 16.5 hours a week total and it’s killing me.  I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours before going to work, yet while at work 1/2 a pot of coffee doesn’t seem to have any effect on me anymore?  The whole time at work I feel like I could just curl up anywhere and sleep. I have no idea what happens if I can’t continue, but I do have calls in to 2 different case workers so we can see what options I have. This doesn’t even get into the one employee I have to deal with, she may drive me further out of my mind than I already am. Tired, Tony —

Get orthodics for your shoes.  They are amazing and help your feet, legs, knees, everything.  If you can’t afford custom orthodics you can buy good ones in some better sporting good stores and off the net.  Some even go into the oven and then mold to your feet.  And no, you don’t put your feet in the oven.  :-) I had to stand all day when I worked for my dad.  Fortunately my cousin is a podiatrist and did mine for cost, but even he says the new ones you can get in the better sports stores are pretty good.  My problem was aching calfs, and the orthodics just made the pain go away. Good luck and let us know what happens. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

((((((Tono)))))) Don’t be too hard on yourself.  Things WILL work out… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. Fuck. I just talked to both of the case workers and things don’t look good. To qualify for any of the free Vo-Tech or college courses I have to show that I can work a minimum of 30 hours a week.  But they will ask if I can use a stool for part of the work, which will without a doubt slow me down. Then to make things worse, the courses themselves are full time, they don’t pay for part time or evening courses. All I can do for now is to stay at the Goodwill and hope I can build up more stamina.  I could lower my med dosages and see what happens? Luckily I have an appointment with my therapist today.  Driving at high speeds and looking for big trees is sounding more attractive again. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

<gently snipped ::All I can do for now is to stay at the Goodwill and hope I can build up ::more stamina.  I could lower my med dosages and see what happens? :: ::Luckily I have an appointment with my therapist today.  Driving at high ::speeds and looking for big trees is sounding more attractive again. Dear Tony, I’m really sorry that this isn’t working out well. No job is worth this much pain and suffering. Hopefully your therapist will give you some good advice and support. (((((Tony))))) Jackie ~*~I got in touch with my inner child and now my imaginary friend is jealous~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Tony I also have problems standing for extended periods. It exhausts me and makes my knees and feet hurt. Perhaps changes in your shoes and socks might help? If you need arch supports, you can find different types of off-the-shelf orthotic inserts at sporting goods stores that don’t cost too much. Socks have also made a big difference for me. I use running socks with good cushioning and made out of a fabric like coolmax that wicks away sweat from your feet. Another thing to try is the cushioned floor pad that a lot of checkout clerks in grocery stores use, if you are standing in one place. Cushioning on the floor helps me a great deal. I think a stool would be a real help even if you don’t use it all the time, just for taking periodic breaks from standing on your feet. If they give you time for breaks, another possibility is to  find some place where you can lie on the floor and elevate your legs and feet. For example, put your lower legs on the seat of a chair. This circulates the blood that pools in your legs. Finally, what about trying to find a desk job? You write very well and you obviously have some familiarity with computers. I don’t know what you like but maybe Goodwill has need for receptionist/secretary/office assistant? If they deal with the government, I bet they have to do a lot of paperwork. Hope this helps. Bob — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores.

Fuck. I just talked to both of the case workers and things don’t look good. To qualify for any of the free Vo-Tech or college courses I have to show that I can work a minimum of 30 hours a week.  But they will ask if I can use a stool for part of the work, which will without a doubt slow me down. Then to make things worse, the courses themselves are full time, they don’t pay for part time or evening courses. All I can do for now is to stay at the Goodwill and hope I can build up more stamina.  I could lower my med dosages and see what happens? Luckily I have an appointment with my therapist today.  Driving at high speeds and looking for big trees is sounding more attractive again. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Tony, Have you considered being self-employed again? You seemed to do well when you were a handyman. And you liked fixing things. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, I’m glad you were assertive and called the case workers.  Let them know of your dilemma.  They may be able to find you a job where you can sit more often.  Possibly a parking lot attendant? Are you standing on concrete floors most of the time?  Is it damp in your environment?  These 2 factors affect my body. Does Alleve or any ibuprofen help with the pain? Please keep us updated. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. I had been much better, but now just standing can be a painful task again. At work, it’s not always pain, but often the feeling like my knees will just collapse, and if it happens I hope the knee bends the proper way and not backward like it feels could happen! Oh, I’ve been putting in 5 to 5.5 hours three days a week.  Yes, that’s only 16.5 hours a week total and it’s killing me.  I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours before going to work, yet while at work 1/2 a pot of coffee doesn’t seem to have any effect on me anymore?  The whole time at work I feel like I could just curl up anywhere and sleep. I have no idea what happens if I can’t continue, but I do have calls in to 2 different case workers so we can see what options I have. This doesn’t even get into the one employee I have to deal with, she may drive me further out of my mind than I already am. Tired, Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. I had been much better, but now just standing can be a painful task again.  At work, it’s not always pain, but often the feeling like my knees will just collapse, and if it happens I hope the knee bends the proper way and not backward like it feels could happen! Oh, I’ve been putting in 5 to 5.5 hours three days a week.  Yes, that’s only 16.5 hours a week total and it’s killing me.  I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours before going to work, yet while at work 1/2 a pot of coffee doesn’t seem to have any effect on me anymore?  The whole time at work I feel like I could just curl up anywhere and sleep. I have no idea what happens if I can’t continue, but I do have calls in to 2 different case workers so we can see what options I have. This doesn’t even get into the one employee I have to deal with, she may drive me further out of my mind than I already am. Tired, Tony

Tony, I have a problem, not standing still, but walking all day long on a job with no place to sit down. Perhaps  you Rehab Counselor can help you to get a stool or something. A doctor could back you up on the pain part, if you make an appointment. You may need a job that is at least partially, if not all – a sit down job. Good luck Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Sorry for top posting but its a brief message. That doesn’t sound too good Tony. Can you arrange to work less hours. Mary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me. It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. I had been much better, but now just standing can be a painful task again.  At work, it’s not always pain, but often the feeling like my knees will just collapse, and if it happens I hope the knee bends the proper way and not backward like it feels could happen! Oh, I’ve been putting in 5 to 5.5 hours three days a week.  Yes, that’s only 16.5 hours a week total and it’s killing me.  I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours before going to work, yet while at work 1/2 a pot of coffee doesn’t seem to have any effect on me anymore? The whole time at work I feel like I could just curl up anywhere and sleep. I have no idea what happens if I can’t continue, but I do have calls in to 2 different case workers so we can see what options I have. This doesn’t even get into the one employee I have to deal with, she may drive me further out of my mind than I already am. Tired, Tony

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

My "training" at the Goodwill isn’t going very well.  Actually I’m doing the work well (I think?) but standing all day is killing me.  It’s been 4 weeks now and I don’t seem to have reached the peak where my pain and fatigue are starting to go down.  Instead my knees keep getting worse and are now hurting more and more at home while doing regular chores. I had been much better, but now just standing can be a painful task again.  At work, it’s not always pain, but often the feeling like my knees will just collapse, and if it happens I hope the knee bends the proper way and not backward like it feels could happen! Oh, I’ve been putting in 5 to 5.5 hours three days a week.  Yes, that’s only 16.5 hours a week total and it’s killing me.  I have been sleeping 8 or 9 hours before going to work, yet while at work 1/2 a pot of coffee doesn’t seem to have any effect on me anymore?  The whole time at work I feel like I could just curl up anywhere and sleep. I have no idea what happens if I can’t continue, but I do have calls in to 2 different case workers so we can see what options I have. This doesn’t even get into the one employee I have to deal with, she may drive me further out of my mind than I already am. Tired, Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The one certain thing about communities is that they are almost guaranteed to change. I have only lived in my present community about 3 years and I can already see great changes. Schools can be changed too but it takes a great effort on the part of the parents to force the situation. — Ron P The trouble with sitting on the fence is getting pickets up the butt Ron, Thanks so much for your reply. I agree with you about change in communities, but the weird thing is that ours hasn’t changed one bit since we moved here almost five years ago. It’s kind of freaky. The HOA rules with an iron fist. I know there are options to fight the school boundaries and such, but I have no energy for that. I’d rather move, and that says a lot . Thanks again, Ron. Love, Dawn

Home Owners Associations can be a pain in the ass and are usually run by a bunch of real pratts. I would tend to find out all the rules and push every last one of them to the limit just to drive them nuts. A condominium that I lived in had some strange rules about what could be on the balconies even though they had solid no-see-through railings that were 4 feet high.  One guy and his girlfriend waited until a hot day then they proceeded to sunbath in the nude on their balcony and then did what comes naturally and there wasn’t a thing the association of owners could do about it. Talk about sticking it in their faces! — Ron P The trouble with sitting on the fence is getting pickets up the butt — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The water bottle thing.. oh.. it’s probably a good thing that is not one of my kids. I tended to be a bit of a mother hen about things like that.. I would go in on the school, and they would remember me for a long time before I was finished saying what I wanted to say. LOL .. I can uh.. let it rip if I feel like one of my kids is being hurt in some way. I’m still that way and they are grown men. we all feel that way, Sally … BUT there are parents appearing in schools to demand that there kids be able to use their cell phones at ALL TIMES "in case there is an emergency" … that’s just for openers … If parents want better schools with better outcomes they absolutely MUST let the administrators and teachers run them, not the kids and parents. Susan Do you have kids, Susan? I don’t have school-age kids, Giggs .. but I have a memory (of better times with schools) and I still pay a lot of attention to what’s going on now in the world of education … and I have done some teaching at the college level;  I understand people’s frustration with stupid rules; there are plenty of them but I have pretty consistently taken the position that if a rule is not egregiously bad then I shut up and the kids have to follow it. However, I have never defended a stupid rule;  kids know better and you lose credibility if you do.  The stupid rules REALLY begin in earnest when you LEAVE school so I always thought it’s good for the kids to come to terms with that reality of life.  In my work, dealing with stupid rules is an everyday thing.

My first job had some really stupid rules. Some examples: Women: Had to wear dresses and skirts mid-knee in length…no longer or shorter No streaky hairdos Men: Sideburns had to be mid ear in length No beards or moustaches No running shoes (we were a delivery service within a company) Shirt with collars and mandatory ties (ties were dangerous around parcel wrapping machinery) The first thing I did was to grow Elvis Presley type side burns. I was ordered to shave it off….of course I ignored that. The second thing I did was to let my hair grow a bit longer than usual.  I was told to get a hair cut. A week later I was told again to get a haircut. I told them that I hadn’t been told to get a haircut in over 10 years and I wasn’t about to take that kind of order from the likes of them.  About a month later I got a haircut to trim back to the length that was first objected to. The first day of summer that was hot, I wore a pair of dress shorts (knee length) and promptly got into trouble for that and was told to not wear them anymore. I said thanks and would immediately take them off and spend the rest of the day in my tightly whiteys. That just about blew their minds. I lasted nearly 30 years with that outfit….I guess that I was the first of the "rebel new generation" to hit the place who wouldn’t be run over by stupid rules. — Ron P The trouble with sitting on the fence is getting pickets up the butt — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <gently snipped ::Any thoughts? Maybe someone will come up with something I haven’t thought ::of. I am having a ton of anxiety over this. It’s occupying my every waking ::moment as thoughts roll around in my head, over and over. I’m the worst ::decision maker in the world! Dear Dawn, Of course only you and your husband can make this decision. Once you decide what to do, you`ll anxiety will dissipate. If this were me, I think I would move. Your daughter is young enough where it shouldn`t be terribly stressful. In my opinion, moving during the junior high/high school years is a bit more traumatic for teenagers. The fact that ten kids are not returning to the charter school indicates something is not quite right. It`s crazy to not allow children to bring water bottles to school in the desert. Did they ever give a reason why? I had my two older kids in preschool together when they were toddlers. At first I liked the school….  then I started getting the feeling they were not allowing the kids to be kids. I got taken to task because I let Joshua and Kristen go to school with the backpacks my Mom had bought them. The director of the preschool actually asked me ‘what were you thinking allowing your kids to bring backpacks’. I was flabbergasted! To me backpacks and school is like a baseball games and hotdogs. You can`t have one without the other. This director is making me feel like my kids were freaks for having backpacks. LOL! Another day I was approached by the director because my two had misbehaved this one day. I had a million thoughts of what they could have done, all of them horrible things These are the same two that used to feed their fish milk and raisins. Anything was possible To my horror, she told me they committed the heinous act of taking off their shoes during class <gasp. The final straw was when the director approached me another time and told me Joshua was saying very bad words in school. She couldn`t even say the words to me. She had written them on a piece of paper, folded it and placed it in my hand. I drove down the street for a bit, pulled over because I had to know what curse words he had uttered in school. I opened the paper and there was written, ‘pee-pee and poo-poo’. I am not kidding. I let them finish out that year but would not let them return in the Fall. A few years later when they got older, they told me they hated that school. Have you asked Katie if she likes her current school? Ask her, you may be surprised. Good luck Dawn! Let us know what you decide. Jackie ~*~Be kind, remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle~*~  ~~ T.H. Thompson

Jackie, That’s why we’re in trouble–neither my husband nor I can make decisions to save our lives .  Actually, I kind of think we’ve made the decision and are just looking for validation or reassurance or something.  Ok, I’m looking for it–he doesn’t care…LOL! That preschool sounds insane. I would have pulled my child out too. Katie does like her current school, but that may change as the crazy rules get more prevalent. I think the new principal, though he seemed very reasonable and nice when talked to him on the phone for 30 mins., is going to be a much more hands on, crack down kind of a guy.  That will be very different from the last principal and should be interesting to see. I fear some of the teachers may leave after this year if things don’t go well. I guess it won’t matter for us, though, since we’ll have options–hooray! We are listing our house starting next Monday. In fact, I have to go paint a bathroom now, so I’d better finish up here and get started. Thanks, Jackie! Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Dawn, Definitely make your daughter’s education a top priority.  If that means moving then do what you need to do. Sooner or later I would love to downsize also.  My son will be  moving back from college TEMPORARILY in 2 weeks so we need to be able to facilitate his needs for a while also. I looked at some of the houses on the site.  They awe me.  Very nice and yet so different from the homes in my area – more like our medical facilities or small office buildings.  I didn’t notice any grass.  What’s the story on that or is it about the climate? smiles, Elise I am here to tell you.. I saw no grass either. I Google Earthed her .. a lot of weeks ago. Ain’t no grass there, LOL. Well..look at it like this. No grass, no lawn to maintain, I suppose. To me, I’d be okay with that, but that is laziness, or depression or just knowing  I didn’t want to get out and mow in that kind of heat or something. I think I would make the move.. Just knowing what bad schools can be like nowadays. I really wonder. If I had little kids now.. I may even decide to just home school them. I don’t know. I just might, in today’s world. I do know, my sons behaved better before they began school than after they started – they picked up some rather bad habits from the other kids, kind of shocked me, really.  They had issues- we never had issues about until they’d learned some things from some other children. I don’t mean it lightly when I say "move." I just did it. I think it’s going to take an act of God, or maybe dynamite to get me to move again anytime soon. It’s difficult, and ..not an easy thing to just pick up and move. But your kids are a good enough reason to do that. sounds like a mass exodus from that school. That tells you a lot. The water bottle thing.. oh.. it’s probably a good thing that is not one of my kids. I tended to be a bit of a mother hen about things like that.. I would go in on the school, and they would remember me for a long time before I was finished saying what I wanted to say. LOL .. I can uh.. let it rip if I feel like one of my kids is being hurt in some way. I’m still that way and they are grown men. Sally

There’s grass, just not a lot of it. The neighborhood we want to move to has two or three grassy parks and a lot of the homes have some grass in the backyard. Grass needs a lot of water and we are into water conservation here, I guess . We are making the move. I am the same way with my baby–I protect her at all costs.  I won’t go in and rant at them b/c she’d like to stay there at least for this year. I hope it will be okay with the water situation. Her teacher is WONDERFUL–I just love her! We’ll probably pull her out for fifth grade or maybe wait until middle school (6-8) here. Thanks, Sally. Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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<gently snipped ::We are listing our house starting next Monday. In fact, I have to go paint a ::bathroom now, so I’d better finish up here and get started. Good luck (((((Dawn)))) Wishing you a quick sale! Jackie ~*~Be kind, remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle~*~   ~~ T.H. Thompson — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The water bottle thing.. oh.. it’s probably a good thing that is not one of my kids. I tended to be a bit of a mother hen about things like that.. I would go in on the school, and they would remember me for a long time before I was finished saying what I wanted to say. LOL .. I can uh.. let it rip if I feel like one of my kids is being hurt in some way. I’m still that way and they are grown men. we all feel that way, Sally … BUT there are parents appearing in schools to demand that there kids be able to use their cell phones at ALL TIMES "in case there is an emergency" … that’s just for openers … If parents want better schools with better outcomes they absolutely MUST let the administrators and teachers run them, not the kids and parents. Susan Do you have kids, Susan?

I don’t have school-age kids, Giggs .. but I have a memory (of better times with schools) and I still pay a lot of attention to what’s going on now in the world of education … and I have done some teaching at the college level;  I understand people’s frustration with stupid rules; there are plenty of them but I have pretty consistently taken the position that if a rule is not egregiously bad then I shut up and the kids have to follow it. However, I have never defended a stupid rule;  kids know better and you lose credibility if you do.  The stupid rules REALLY begin in earnest when you LEAVE school so I always thought it’s good for the kids to come to terms with that reality of life.  In my work, dealing with stupid rules is an everyday thing. People should understand the backdrop behind stupid school rules. Bad things happen (like Columbine) and there’s a public outcry for schools and public officials to "do something."  People in administration call lawyers (among others) for guidance and I’m afraid my colleagues have a tendency to consistently seek, and find, the most conservative and cautious course of action imaginable.  That’s how you get things like no-backpack rules. Worse yet, they tend to propogate rapidly across the country and become prevailing orthodoxy in one district after another.  It doesn’t take long before there a lot of parents in "good homes" with "good kids" absolutely going nuts, pulling their hair out and and wondering what in God’s name this rule is doing in their kids’ school.  It’s true … THEIR kids don’t put weapons in all about ??  This is why I think local control is what works best. When it comes to parenting, I think John Rosemond is one of the people making a lot of sense: http://rosemond.com/index.php I have to admit that it surprises me that I like a site named "Traditional Parenting" (I don’t think of myself as "traditional") but I think there’s a lot of value there .. a lot of good thinking about what effective, loving parenting is about. SJ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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I`d bet a bottle of Dansani water that the reason they don`t allow kids to bring water bottles is that it would mean more trips to the bathroom.

I asked some teachers about this; at least two schools in the area have initiated a no-water-bottle policy because several students were found to be putting vodka in the bottle. And then there’s this: "A newsroom conversation recently centered around all the illegal things we had all done when we were teens. What a rotten bunch we were. There were drag racers, partiers, vandals, gypsies, tramps and thieves. We were in the memory lane huddle because of all the zero-tolerance debate going on right now. All the debate led to the question: Is it really all that shocking when teens try to pull the wool over the eyes of adults? Last year the big scandal was an athletic trip where some little darlings toted vodka-laced fruit. Then some put it in their water bottles. Those wacky kids. That fruit trick is as old as the hills. The water bottle thing was creative. But I’m old, so maybe that’s not new either." http://www.oaoa.com/columns/laura022005a.htm and this: "Our school does allow students to carry a clear/resealable 8 ounce bottle of water with them during the day. I’ve learned to smell the sweet aroma of vodka tainted water clear across the room. " http://teachers.net/mentors/high_school/topic7330/8.03.06.18.52.17.html and this: "You have the small boy who becomes a doll for the girls, they’re playing with his hair. Other kids are reading magazines, drawing on their desks. Kids are spitting sunflower seeds on the floor. Other kids are drinking vodka from what you thought was a water bottle. And the noise level makes it very difficult for anything to progress." http://www.hbo.com/thewire/interviews/ed_burns.shtml Susan — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Dawn! (I know I haven’t emailed you lately.  Tons going on.) It sounds to me, just from reading what you wrote, that you seem to have made up your mind already but are scared to make a huge move in case it is a mistake.  I am about to do something similar, myself, and I am terrified. You have to do what is best for you and your family and what makes everyone happy.  The other neighborhood looks great but it is a shame you feel you must move in order for your child to get a proper education.  You love your house, but it is too big (2400 square feet is quite large).  Katie has no neighborhood children to play with because everyone lives far apart.  I went through that with both kids because I live in the country no one’s homes are close and none of my kids’ friends ever lived in our area so we were constantly taking them to other homes in order for them to play. You and your family should just sit down with a piece of paper and write down the pros and cons of living where you are or moving.  Not an easy decision, but I very much admire what a wonderful mother you are to care about this matter.  So many do not care.  Luckily, my kids had/have good schools (son is still in high school). Please try not to stress over it.  You will make the right decision as a family, I am sure. Love ya, Vicki

Hello Vicki, You’re very correct–we have kind of made up our minds (such as they are…LOL), but need reassurance and feedback/input from others to keep us on track. We’re so indecisive!  What a team we make. I did the pros and cons thing and came up with 3 cons and 14 pros. Moving it is! I’m not sure I’m such a wonderful mother (lately I’ve been soooo irritable with Katie), but I do care deeply about her education and health and everything that affects her. Love ya right back! Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Hi, Dawn, "I think we’re all tired of cleaning ." Exactly!!!  And don’t forget painting, decorating, upkeep, etc…<g smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Dawn, Definitely make your daughter’s education a top priority.  If that means moving then do what you need to do. Sooner or later I would love to downsize also.  My son will be  moving back from college TEMPORARILY in 2 weeks so we need to be able to facilitate his needs for a while also. I looked at some of the houses on the site.  They awe me.  Very nice and yet so different from the homes in my area – more like our medical facilities or small office buildings.  I didn’t notice any grass.  What’s the story on that or is it about the climate? smiles, Elise Hi Elise, Thanks so much. I agree that my daughter’s education (and everything else) is a top priority. It’s funny, everyone I talk to says they want to downsize their home.  I think we’re all tired of cleaning . The homes out here are very different. One of the models in there, the one we’re most interested in, is a bungalow style like a Craftsman. It has the front porch and you enter into a large living room with the kitchen open to it and a dining room off to the side. The bedrooms are all off the living room except the master, which is in the back.  The one we are considering putting an offer in on (a contigency offer–we need to sell our home) also has an AZ room (enclosed, insulated sunroom) next the master, behind the kitchen. We don’t have much grass in Tucson (though, bizarrely, the home we like has grass in the backyard) because people are very water-conservation minded here.  Phoenix, which is just as dry (maybe drier), has much more grass. It’s kind of expensive to keep grass alive here. Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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::WHY aren’t they cleaning the water fountains ??  Does EVERY kid have to ::bring a stash of Evian or Perrier to school to avoid E-Coli infection or ::avian flu ?  That’s nuts. <snipped With all due respect Susan, Dawn vented about an issue that was causing her a lot of anxiety. When it comes to our children, most parents want to do what is best for them. I believe the water bottle issue was just ‘one issue’ amongst others that had Dawn concerned. It`s just common sense to allow kids to bring water bottles to school in the desert, especially when it is the norm everywhere else in the state of Arizona. Young and old people are the most susceptible to heat. I`d bet a bottle of Dansani water that the reason they don`t allow kids to bring water bottles is that it would mean more trips to the bathroom. First and foremost, this IS a support group, not court, not a debate club. Jackie ~*~Be kind, remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle~*~   ~~ T.H. Thompson — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a major dilemma and I thought I’d throw it out to you all and see what you think. Here it is: 1. We live in a bad school district. There are some good schools, elementary and high schools (about two each), but no good junior high schools. By good, I mean with good test scores and limited crime. Our school district also won’t let us open enroll in any neighboring districts (there are two very good ones near us). 2. Katie currently attends a charter school system (4th grade) that contains an elementary, junior high and high school. These are excellent schools with good teachers, but the owners are difficult people and instate rules like no water bottles (we live in a hot, dry desert–everyone carries water bottles and all schools require them), no lunch boxes (paper bags) and no backpacks (they provide a tote bag). These are new rules this year, with a new principal. They fired the old one and her aide, both of whom all the kids adored, without notice after the end of last year. See, they wait until they know people can’t open enroll anywhere else because it’s too late and then they drop these rules and other stuff on us.  I only wonder what they’ll do next. Last year they spent the first two weeks of school screaming at parents, children, and the principal on a daily basis. See, they tried to instate the aforementioned policies last year but waited too late so they backed off. We thought they were gone (the rules). No such luck. This time they sent out a letter over the summer. I see at least 10 kids from Katie’s grade alone are not coming back (there’s about 40 kids in her grade). So here is our dilemma: What can we do if Katie’s charter schools head even farther south?  Notwithstanding the control-freak owners, said owners could sell the school, or run out of money, or just about anything could affect charter schools that probably wouldn’t be an issue in a regular school district.  If she can’t go there anymore, we don’t have any options in our current home. There are no other good charter schools (I’ve looked at them all). Private school is too expensive and the good ones are religion-affiliated, which we don’t want.  We refuse to use someone else’s address to attend another district–I’m not a good rule breaker and I’d live in fear of getting caught, which sometimes happens to others who try it. My idea is to move about a mile south of where we are to get into the better school district. I can see the houses in that district across the wash to the south–we’re that close.  When we bought our home we didn’t figure on wanting to stay in it so long. Our neighborhood junior high and high school are the pits, even though we live in a nice neighborhood. I guess we just didn’t plan ahead enough. Does this sound reasonable, or am I going off half-cocked?  We love our house, the neighborhood is safe and quiet, but there aren’t any kids nearby for Katie to play with and the houses are really far apart (1/3-2 acre lots) so even trick or treating is a no-go. She also can’t play outside by herself because it’s got a ton of open space and the wild critters are everywhere. We also don’t have any parks or amenities for the $40 a month we pay in HOA fees (goes to the roads–it’s a gated neighborhood and the HOA owns them). Also, our house is too big for the three of us  (2400 sq.ft.) and I’d like a smaller home for ease of cleaning and lack of wasted space. The neighborhood we want to move to is one of those experimental neighborhoods where the houses are all close together with the garages in back and they’re all "green" construction. They’re going for more of a small-town, old fashioned feel with front porces, a lot of rear garages, tree-lined streets, etc. There are neighborhood shops and parks and a rec center and all kinds of things we don’t have now. It’s so close that we would be near all the stores and things we have access to now. Here’s a link to the neighborhood web site: www.civanoneighbors.com If you are curious and want to see the homes, there’s a link on that site to current homes for sale and www.longrealty.com has an mls number search. Here are some of the mls numbers of the ones we like: 2623942 2619421 2620632 2609916 2621850 2612086 2616629 2608063 2627552 2618944 2623526 Any thoughts? Maybe someone will come up with something I haven’t thought of. I am having a ton of anxiety over this. It’s occupying my every waking moment as thoughts roll around in my head, over and over. I’m the worst decision maker in the world! Thanks so much if you read all this. Love, Dawn

Hello Dawn! (I know I haven’t emailed you lately.  Tons going on.) It sounds to me, just from reading what you wrote, that you seem to have made up your mind already but are scared to make a huge move in case it is a mistake.  I am about to do something similar, myself, and I am terrified. You have to do what is best for you and your family and what makes everyone happy.  The other neighborhood looks great but it is a shame you feel you must move in order for your child to get a proper education.  You love your house, but it is too big (2400 square feet is quite large).  Katie has no neighborhood children to play with because everyone lives far apart.  I went through that with both kids because I live in the country no one’s homes are close and none of my kids’ friends ever lived in our area so we were constantly taking them to other homes in order for them to play. You and your family should just sit down with a piece of paper and write down the pros and cons of living where you are or moving.  Not an easy decision, but I very much admire what a wonderful mother you are to care about this matter.  So many do not care.  Luckily, my kids had/have good schools (son is still in high school). Please try not to stress over it.  You will make the right decision as a family, I am sure. Love ya, Vicki — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Hi, Dawn, Definitely make your daughter’s education a top priority.  If that means moving then do what you need to do. Sooner or later I would love to downsize also.  My son will be  moving back from college TEMPORARILY in 2 weeks so we need to be able to facilitate his needs for a while also. I looked at some of the houses on the site.  They awe me.  Very nice and yet so different from the homes in my area – more like our medical facilities or small office buildings.  I didn’t notice any grass.  What’s the story on that or is it about the climate? smiles, Elise

Hi Elise, Thanks so much. I agree that my daughter’s education (and everything else) is a top priority. It’s funny, everyone I talk to says they want to downsize their home.  I think we’re all tired of cleaning . The homes out here are very different. One of the models in there, the one we’re most interested in, is a bungalow style like a Craftsman. It has the front porch and you enter into a large living room with the kitchen open to it and a dining room off to the side. The bedrooms are all off the living room except the master, which is in the back.  The one we are considering putting an offer in on (a contigency offer–we need to sell our home) also has an AZ room (enclosed, insulated sunroom) next the master, behind the kitchen. We don’t have much grass in Tucson (though, bizarrely, the home we like has grass in the backyard) because people are very water-conservation minded here.  Phoenix, which is just as dry (maybe drier), has much more grass. It’s kind of expensive to keep grass alive here. Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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The one certain thing about communities is that they are almost guaranteed to change. I have only lived in my present community about 3 years and I can already see great changes. Schools can be changed too but it takes a great effort on the part of the parents to force the situation. — Ron P The trouble with sitting on the fence is getting pickets up the butt

Ron, Thanks so much for your reply. I agree with you about change in communities, but the weird thing is that ours hasn’t changed one bit since we moved here almost five years ago. It’s kind of freaky. The HOA rules with an iron fist. I know there are options to fight the school boundaries and such, but I have no energy for that. I’d rather move, and that says a lot . Thanks again, Ron. Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With all due respect Susan, Dawn vented about an issue that was causing her a lot of anxiety. When it comes to our children, most parents want to do what is best for them. I believe the water bottle issue was just ‘one issue’ amongst others that had Dawn concerned. It`s just common sense to allow kids to bring water bottles to school in the desert, especially when it is the norm everywhere else in the state of Arizona. Young and old people are the most susceptible to heat. I`d bet a bottle of Dansani water that the reason they don`t allow kids to bring water bottles is that it would mean more trips to the bathroom. First and foremost, this IS a support group, not court, not a debate club.

Jackie, A lot of things have become "common sense" over the past 25 years in schools at the behest of parents and children;  perhaps you’ve noticed the results ? There are now police officers all over campuses, along with ubiquitous video monitoring devices … lovely, isn’t it ?  Is this a result of teacher or administrative misconduct ? I know very well that Dawn was "venting" about more than water bottles but you can only deal with what’s on the table for discussion, shown well by your continued discussion of water bottles here.  She has every reason to feel anxious about what’s going on in the schools.  I have considered the issues carefully for a long time now and offered my perspective on it in good faith.  We can, and apparently do, disagree.  And, importantly, I think Dawn is more than capable of speaking for herself on what I wrote .. if she so chooses. Being supportive does not mean that you claim to agree with someone’s position when you don’t agree with it.  If "debate" is required to get some facts or opinions out into the light of day, it should occur.  The alternative is that we all hear only the things we like hearing. Susan — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Dawn, Definitely make your daughter’s education a top priority.  If that means moving then do what you need to do. Sooner or later I would love to downsize also.  My son will be  moving back from college TEMPORARILY in 2 weeks so we need to be able to facilitate his needs for a while also. I looked at some of the houses on the site.  They awe me.  Very nice and yet so different from the homes in my area – more like our medical facilities or small office buildings.  I didn’t notice any grass.  What’s the story on that or is it about the climate? smiles, Elise

I am here to tell you.. I saw no grass either. I Google Earthed her .. a lot of weeks ago. Ain’t no grass there, LOL. Well..look at it like this. No grass, no lawn to maintain, I suppose. To me, I’d be okay with that, but that is laziness, or depression or just knowing  I didn’t want to get out and mow in that kind of heat or something. I think I would make the move.. Just knowing what bad schools can be like nowadays. I really wonder. If I had little kids now.. I may even decide to just home school them. I don’t know. I just might, in today’s world. I do know, my sons behaved better before they began school than after they started – they picked up some rather bad habits from the other kids, kind of shocked me, really.  They had issues- we never had issues about until they’d learned some things from some other children. I don’t mean it lightly when I say "move." I just did it. I think it’s going to take an act of God, or maybe dynamite to get me to move again anytime soon. It’s difficult, and ..not an easy thing to just pick up and move. But your kids are a good enough reason to do that. sounds like a mass exodus from that school. That tells you a lot. The water bottle thing.. oh.. it’s probably a good thing that is not one of my kids. I tended to be a bit of a mother hen about things like that.. I would go in on the school, and they would remember me for a long time before I was finished saying what I wanted to say. LOL .. I can uh.. let it rip if I feel like one of my kids is being hurt in some way. I’m still that way and they are grown men. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I agree that the administrators and teachers should run the school, but with input from a parents. A school is a community of sorts, and good schools take everyone’s opinion into consideration and do what is best for all.

sure … but not necessarily in day-to-day management In our case, the administrators are simply making crazy rules that have nothing to do with the quality of the school or education and everything to do with being control freaks.  These are good schools, with excellent test scores (over the past few years they’ve been open) and excellent teachers. The teachers are not allowed any input either–it is a matter of the owners making arbitrary rules that don’t benefit anyone.  The teachers are not in agreement with these rules, either.  There was no problem with backpacks, lunchboxes,

you understand, Dawn, that the basic charter school "bargain" is increased operational autonomy in exchange for greater accountability, right ?  So it should come as no surprise that those who run the school are motivated to meet whatever standards have been set for them, especially so if your owners are a "for-profit" entity.  They don’t want anyone else running the show if it’s their bottom line at stake.  For this reason, I am none too fond of this kind of arrangement and I don’t care how many armies of free-market Chicago-school economists say it’s the only rational way to operate any institution.  There are, in my view, certain institutions which should remain as far from the influence of profit motivation as possible … these would include schools and prisons.  I lean towards a libertarian point of view but there are indeed some things which the government should be involved in.  That said, it needs to do a better job at it and instead of centralizing educational control with garbage like NCLB it should yield to the local level to the fullest extent possible.  At least that’s MY two cents on the matter. I would try to send my kids to a private school;  it’s expensive but there is often scholarship money to be had. No water bottles in a dry, hot desert environment is an absolutely ridiculous, and dangerous, rule. My daughter’s class will have P.E. in the hottest part of the day with NO water but drinking fountains that are never cleaned and are under trees where birds poop on them. If my daughter collapses from dehydration, or even worse, gets extremely ill, you can bet I’ll be suing the owners and I’ll own the school before I’m through.

WHY aren’t they cleaning the water fountains ??  Does EVERY kid have to bring a stash of Evian or Perrier to school to avoid E-Coli infection or avian flu ?  That’s nuts.  Bring your digital camera over there, take a few good shots of the bird shit, and send them to the principal.  They WILL clean them up and/or move them. And yes … the all-too-familiar lawsuit bravado … Dawn, I’m an attorney; listen to me … you DO NOT want to be involved in litigation with your child’s school for the next five years … you really, really don’t … if it’s THAT dangerous, yank her out of the damn place. Now. Susan — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The water bottle thing.. oh.. it’s probably a good thing that is not one of my kids. I tended to be a bit of a mother hen about things like that.. I would go in on the school, and they would remember me for a long time before I was finished saying what I wanted to say. LOL .. I can uh.. let it rip if I feel like one of my kids is being hurt in some way. I’m still that way and they are grown men. we all feel that way, Sally … BUT there are parents appearing in schools to demand that there kids be able to use their cell phones at ALL TIMES "in case there is an emergency" … that’s just for openers … If parents want better schools with better outcomes they absolutely MUST let the administrators and teachers run them, not the kids and parents. Susan

My mother. My grandmother. My older son. Two of my best friends from high school. All elementary teachers. All of them. My son is head teacher for several schools here.  I know a bit about teachers. I know a bit about schools. I know bits about them you probably are unaware of, unless you come from the background that I do. You are preaching to the choir when you preach to me. I decided NOT to become a teacher, based upon my knowledge of what I would face. I know all about it. No water bottles – in a desert climate..is assinine. I did not mention or refer to cell phones. Water. Heat. Life. It  matters. Cell phones are superfluous. Water is not. I know for a fact.. sometimes the educators and the administrators need to be put in their places. You should have seen my mother.. a teacher.. and how she reacted the day the principal of the school (I attended the same school she taught in)..the principal decided that I would eat everything on my lunch plate. She put her job on the line because of it. She was not going to let anyone force me to eat a plate of food I did not want ever again. You should have heard her telephone conversation the day a teacher decided my hair was hanging in my face and it needed to be fixed. LOL. I would LOVE for you to have heard that conversation. Just love it. My mother could cut a tree down with her tongue. So can I if it’s necessary, like in a case where I think I need to take up my kids’ part..you bet I would. My kid is the reason those folks with the titles and positions have a job in the first place. They better be there to teach.. not to harm. My mother.. did not believe that everything that administrators or teachers did was fine, simply because they managed to obtain the position they had. She should know. She was one. I took her word for it, and grew up hearing stories that might give you an insight into the way the system actually works. Some teachers and adminstrators are less equipped or suitable to be in the positions they hold – than I would be. That is a fact.  If you’re telling me teachers should be given the right to teach, I agree. I know how hard my family and friends have worked, and how difficult their jobs are/were. Schools aren’t there to dictate anything that puts a kid’s health – physical or mental health..in any kind of jeopardy. If they feel they need to do that to "educate"..they need to close their doors. They have become useless torture mills if that is how they feel they must run their institutions. Knowing what I do know about schools. I’d have to not care at bit about my kids to just blindly hand them over to any school and not monitor what was being done both for them and to them. I know too much to not do that. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The water bottle thing.. oh.. it’s probably a good thing that is not one of my kids. I tended to be a bit of a mother hen about things like that.. I would go in on the school, and they would remember me for a long time before I was finished saying what I wanted to say. LOL .. I can uh.. let it rip if I feel like one of my kids is being hurt in some way. I’m still that way and they are grown men. we all feel that way, Sally … BUT there are parents appearing in schools to demand that there kids be able to use their cell phones at ALL TIMES "in case there is an emergency" … that’s just for openers … If parents want better schools with better outcomes they absolutely MUST let the administrators and teachers run them, not the kids and parents. Susan

Susan, I agree that the administrators and teachers should run the school, but with input from a parents. A school is a community of sorts, and good schools take everyone’s opinion into consideration and do what is best for all. In our case, the administrators are simply making crazy rules that have nothing to do with the quality of the school or education and everything to do with being control freaks.  These are good schools, with excellent test scores (over the past few years they’ve been open) and excellent teachers. The teachers are not allowed any input either–it is a matter of the owners making arbitrary rules that don’t benefit anyone.  The teachers are not in agreement with these rules, either.  There was no problem with backpacks, lunchboxes, No water bottles in a dry, hot desert environment is an absolutely ridiculous, and dangerous, rule. My daughter’s class will have P.E. in the hottest part of the day with NO water but drinking fountains that are never cleaned and are under trees where birds poop on them. If my daughter collapses from dehydration, or even worse, gets extremely ill, you can bet I’ll be suing the owners and I’ll own the school before I’m through. There are no parents demanding special concessions–just parents who want their children’s lunches to be insulated so they won’t spoil and for them to have fresh water to drink in the hot desert. Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

<gently snipped ::Any thoughts? Maybe someone will come up with something I haven’t thought ::of. I am having a ton of anxiety over this. It’s occupying my every waking ::moment as thoughts roll around in my head, over and over. I’m the worst ::decision maker in the world! Dear Dawn, Of course only you and your husband can make this decision. Once you decide what to do, you`ll anxiety will dissipate. If this were me, I think I would move. Your daughter is young enough where it shouldn`t be terribly stressful. In my opinion, moving during the junior high/high school years is a bit more traumatic for teenagers. The fact that ten kids are not returning to the charter school indicates something is not quite right. It`s crazy to not allow children to bring water bottles to school in the desert. Did they ever give a reason why? I had my two older kids in preschool together when they were toddlers. At first I liked the school….  then I started getting the feeling they were not allowing the kids to be kids. I got taken to task because I let Joshua and Kristen go to school with the backpacks my Mom had bought them. The director of the preschool actually asked me ‘what were you thinking allowing your kids to bring backpacks’. I was flabbergasted! To me backpacks and school is like a baseball games and hotdogs. You can`t have one without the other. This director is making me feel like my kids were freaks for having backpacks. LOL! Another day I was approached by the director because my two had misbehaved this one day. I had a million thoughts of what they could have done, all of them horrible things These are the same two that used to feed their fish milk and raisins. Anything was possible To my horror, she told me they committed the heinous act of taking off their shoes during class <gasp. The final straw was when the director approached me another time and told me Joshua was saying very bad words in school. She couldn`t even say the words to me. She had written them on a piece of paper, folded it and placed it in my hand. I drove down the street for a bit, pulled over because I had to know what curse words he had uttered in school. I opened the paper and there was written, ‘pee-pee and poo-poo’. I am not kidding. I let them finish out that year but would not let them return in the Fall. A few years later when they got older, they told me they hated that school. Have you asked Katie if she likes her current school? Ask her, you may be surprised. Good luck Dawn! Let us know what you decide. Jackie ~*~Be kind, remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle~*~   ~~ T.H. Thompson — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

The water bottle thing.. oh.. it’s probably a good thing that is not one of my kids. I tended to be a bit of a mother hen about things like that.. I would go in on the school, and they would remember me for a long time before I was finished saying what I wanted to say. LOL .. I can uh.. let it rip if I feel like one of my kids is being hurt in some way. I’m still that way and they are grown men.

we all feel that way, Sally … BUT there are parents appearing in schools to demand that there kids be able to use their cell phones at ALL TIMES "in case there is an emergency" … that’s just for openers … If parents want better schools with better outcomes they absolutely MUST let the administrators and teachers run them, not the kids and parents. Susan — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Dawn, Definitely make your daughter’s education a top priority.  If that means moving then do what you need to do. Sooner or later I would love to downsize also.  My son will be  moving back from college TEMPORARILY in 2 weeks so we need to be able to facilitate his needs for a while also. I looked at some of the houses on the site.  They awe me.  Very nice and yet so different from the homes in my area – more like our medical facilities or small office buildings.  I didn’t notice any grass.  What’s the story on that or is it about the climate? smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a major dilemma and I thought I’d throw it out to you all and see what you think. Here it is: 1. We live in a bad school district. There are some good schools, elementary and high schools (about two each), but no good junior high schools. By good, I mean with good test scores and limited crime. Our school district also won’t let us open enroll in any neighboring districts (there are two very good ones near us). 2. Katie currently attends a charter school system (4th grade) that contains an elementary, junior high and high school. These are excellent schools with good teachers, but the owners are difficult people and instate rules like no water bottles (we live in a hot, dry desert–everyone carries water bottles and all schools require them), no lunch boxes (paper bags) and no backpacks (they provide a tote bag). These are new rules this year, with a new principal. They fired the old one and her aide, both of whom all the kids adored, without notice after the end of last year. See, they wait until they know people can’t open enroll anywhere else because it’s too late and then they drop these rules and other stuff on us.  I only wonder what they’ll do next. Last year they spent the first two weeks of school screaming at parents, children, and the principal on a daily basis. See, they tried to instate the aforementioned policies last year but waited too late so they backed off. We thought they were gone (the rules). No such luck. This time they sent out a letter over the summer. I see at least 10 kids from Katie’s grade alone are not coming back (there’s about 40 kids in her grade). So here is our dilemma: What can we do if Katie’s charter schools head even farther south?  Notwithstanding the control-freak owners, said owners could sell the school, or run out of money, or just about anything could affect charter schools that probably wouldn’t be an issue in a regular school district.  If she can’t go there anymore, we don’t have any options in our current home. There are no other good charter schools (I’ve looked at them all). Private school is too expensive and the good ones are religion-affiliated, which we don’t want.  We refuse to use someone else’s address to attend another district–I’m not a good rule breaker and I’d live in fear of getting caught, which sometimes happens to others who try it. My idea is to move about a mile south of where we are to get into the better school district. I can see the houses in that district across the wash to the south–we’re that close.  When we bought our home we didn’t figure on wanting to stay in it so long. Our neighborhood junior high and high school are the pits, even though we live in a nice neighborhood. I guess we just didn’t plan ahead enough. Does this sound reasonable, or am I going off half-cocked?  We love our house, the neighborhood is safe and quiet, but there aren’t any kids nearby for Katie to play with and the houses are really far apart (1/3-2 acre lots) so even trick or treating is a no-go. She also can’t play outside by herself because it’s got a ton of open space and the wild critters are everywhere. We also don’t have any parks or amenities for the $40 a month we pay in HOA fees (goes to the roads–it’s a gated neighborhood and the HOA owns them). Also, our house is too big for the three of us  (2400 sq.ft.) and I’d like a smaller home for ease of cleaning and lack of wasted space. The neighborhood we want to move to is one of those experimental neighborhoods where the houses are all close together with the garages in back and they’re all "green" construction. They’re going for more of a small-town, old fashioned feel with front porces, a lot of rear garages, tree-lined streets, etc. There are neighborhood shops and parks and a rec center and all kinds of things we don’t have now. It’s so close that we would be near all the stores and things we have access to now. Here’s a link to the neighborhood web site: www.civanoneighbors.com If you are curious and want to see the homes, there’s a link on that site to current homes for sale and www.longrealty.com has an mls number search. Here are some of the mls numbers of the ones we like: 2623942 2619421 2620632 2609916 2621850 2612086 2616629 2608063 2627552 2618944 2623526 Any thoughts? Maybe someone will come up with something I haven’t thought of. I am having a ton of anxiety over this. It’s occupying my every waking moment as thoughts roll around in my head, over and over. I’m the worst decision maker in the world! Thanks so much if you read all this. Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

It sounds like you have LOADS of good reasons to move.  What are the good reasons to stay, besides the fact that you love your house (which is not a bad reason to stay)? Deirdre — Well, the only things we could come up with were the house and yard . Oh, and the quiet neighborhood. But there are no guarantees it will remain that way because you never know who your next neighbors will be, anywhere. Oh, there was one more–not wanting to do the actual move–but that was a minor one.

The one certain thing about communities is that they are almost guaranteed to change. I have only lived in my present community about 3 years and I can already see great changes. Schools can be changed too but it takes a great effort on the part of the parents to force the situation. — Ron P The trouble with sitting on the fence is getting pickets up the butt — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

It sounds like you have LOADS of good reasons to move.  What are the good reasons to stay, besides the fact that you love your house (which is not a bad reason to stay)? Deirdre — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

It sounds like you have LOADS of good reasons to move.  What are the good reasons to stay, besides the fact that you love your house (which is not a bad reason to stay)? Deirdre —

Well, the only things we could come up with were the house and yard . Oh, and the quiet neighborhood. But there are no guarantees it will remain that way because you never know who your next neighbors will be, anywhere. Oh, there was one more–not wanting to do the actual move–but that was a minor one. I guess we’re moving. Thanks, Deirdre! Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I have a major dilemma and I thought I’d throw it out to you all and see what you think. Here it is: 1. We live in a bad school district. There are some good schools, elementary and high schools (about two each), but no good junior high schools. By good, I mean with good test scores and limited crime. Our school district also won’t let us open enroll in any neighboring districts (there are two very good ones near us). 2. Katie currently attends a charter school system (4th grade) that contains an elementary, junior high and high school. These are excellent schools with good teachers, but the owners are difficult people and instate rules like no water bottles (we live in a hot, dry desert–everyone carries water bottles and all schools require them), no lunch boxes (paper bags) and no backpacks (they provide a tote bag). These are new rules this year, with a new principal. They fired the old one and her aide, both of whom all the kids adored, without notice after the end of last year. See, they wait until they know people can’t open enroll anywhere else because it’s too late and then they drop these rules and other stuff on us.  I only wonder what they’ll do next. Last year they spent the first two weeks of school screaming at parents, children, and the principal on a daily basis. See, they tried to instate the aforementioned policies last year but waited too late so they backed off. We thought they were gone (the rules). No such luck. This time they sent out a letter over the summer. I see at least 10 kids from Katie’s grade alone are not coming back (there’s about 40 kids in her grade). So here is our dilemma: What can we do if Katie’s charter schools head even farther south?  Notwithstanding the control-freak owners, said owners could sell the school, or run out of money, or just about anything could affect charter schools that probably wouldn’t be an issue in a regular school district.  If she can’t go there anymore, we don’t have any options in our current home. There are no other good charter schools (I’ve looked at them all). Private school is too expensive and the good ones are religion-affiliated, which we don’t want.  We refuse to use someone else’s address to attend another district–I’m not a good rule breaker and I’d live in fear of getting caught, which sometimes happens to others who try it. My idea is to move about a mile south of where we are to get into the better school district. I can see the houses in that district across the wash to the south–we’re that close.  When we bought our home we didn’t figure on wanting to stay in it so long. Our neighborhood junior high and high school are the pits, even though we live in a nice neighborhood. I guess we just didn’t plan ahead enough. Does this sound reasonable, or am I going off half-cocked?  We love our house, the neighborhood is safe and quiet, but there aren’t any kids nearby for Katie to play with and the houses are really far apart (1/3-2 acre lots) so even trick or treating is a no-go. She also can’t play outside by herself because it’s got a ton of open space and the wild critters are everywhere. We also don’t have any parks or amenities for the $40 a month we pay in HOA fees (goes to the roads–it’s a gated neighborhood and the HOA owns them). Also, our house is too big for the three of us  (2400 sq.ft.) and I’d like a smaller home for ease of cleaning and lack of wasted space.  The neighborhood we want to move to is one of those experimental neighborhoods where the houses are all close together with the garages in back and they’re all "green" construction. They’re going for more of a small-town, old fashioned feel with front porces, a lot of rear garages, tree-lined streets, etc. There are neighborhood shops and parks and a rec center and all kinds of things we don’t have now. It’s so close that we would be near all the stores and things we have access to now. Here’s a link to the neighborhood web site: www.civanoneighbors.com If you are curious and want to see the homes, there’s a link on that site to current homes for sale and www.longrealty.com has an mls number search. Here are some of the mls numbers of the ones we like: 2623942 2619421 2620632 2609916 2621850 2612086 2616629 2608063 2627552 2618944 2623526 Any thoughts? Maybe someone will come up with something I haven’t thought of. I am having a ton of anxiety over this. It’s occupying my every waking moment as thoughts roll around in my head, over and over. I’m the worst decision maker in the world! Thanks so much if you read all this. Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Robert, <snip Earlier this year, I had some symptoms, and before he even tested me, his exact words were, "You probably have esophageal cancer." </snip Waaaaahhh!  Did you report that bum?  What doctor would throw that term around loosely?  Cancer is one of the most devastating diseases in the world.  I think it is appalling for a doctor to even mention it as a possibility.  Something simple like, "why don’t we get tested so we can rule it out" is fine.   However, just stating that you probably have it is insane. My aunt recently died of cancer indirectly.  She was in her 70’s and could literally out pace me.  She had so much life in her.  She did battle breast cancer a number of years ago and beat it.  Less than a year ago she went for a test and the x-ray people at the hospital said it came back.  She was put on chemo and radiation.  She died a few weeks later from a heart attack caused by the chemo.  Two days after she died we found out that the cancer did NOT come back.  The x-ray person goofed : ( Jim

Jim, I didn’t report him, but I did have a "discussion" with him about it. I was pretty blunt. I know this doctor. Used to work in the same facility.  He’s well respected among other physicians, that’s why I chose him in the first place.. but the "probably" remark was not at all good practice.  It simply was not.. and I didn’t even realise that until after I had the tests done that said I didn’t have cancer. After I found out I didn’t.. it sank in that it was not handled correctly in the first place. Not only do anxiety sufferers tend to be hypochondriacs.. I had lost my Aunt that very month to lung cancer, and anytime someone close to you passes away, you are reminded of your own mortality.. so I was pretty vulnerable to a comment like that, anxiety or no anxiety.  I had several people tell me that their doctors did the same thing to them. It was like the day after the "probably" remark that I first threw up (coughed up???) blood.. so I was sure he was right.  Just goes to show you.. always wait for the tests. Never jump to any conclusion until you have had tests done to rule out things, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Did your doc even listen to you? I think that after he hears "smoking," he doesn’t hear very much!  I think he believes all my problems are due to my tobacco use.

Tobacco does stress the body. How *much* it contributes to your anxiety level we don’t know. I smoked for eight or so years and had *zero* anxiety. I had anxiety disorders in college when I wasn’t smoking. Smoking and anxiety are *not* necessarily directly linked. During my last physical (last year), I told him that every time I try to quit smoking, the tension I feel inside is simply unbearable.

Smoking cessation may lead to higher levels of anxiety. How long that lasts depends on a lot of factors. I have been a smoker for 33 years, with about two of those years that I was "quit."   And, I think that each time I have quit, when I start smoking again, I smoke more than before.  It is like I am trying to make up for the ones I missed while I was "quit!"

IMO now is not the right time to quit cold turkey or even close to cold turkey. That will increase your anxiety levels. You’ve been smoking too long. IMO you need to get stabilized, then work at the stressors in your life gradually–nicotine, job, whatever. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Robert, I’m not condoning smoking, that would be silly and not at all bright. I am a smoker too, and I have found the same thing with my doctor. Everything in the world that happens to me happens because I smoke. Earlier this year, I had some symptoms, and before he even tested me, his exact words were, "You probably have esophageal cancer." – And I did have all of the symptoms, and I have the history of smoking and alcohol abuse (I am a recovering alcoholic).. but it was WRONG for him to even say anything, in hindsight.  He had me, and some people in this group pretty upset, I was sure I had it, since a doctor said I "probably" had it.. I’m just mad.  I think he jumped the gun thinking I had cancer because I smoke. I know that I COULD get it (I’ve lost 2 relatives in the past year and a half to lung cancer.) I KNOW it is possible.. but is it probable? Like today? The way I see it, and I may be rationalizing the fact that I don’t want to quit right now.. I’ve smoked for 30 years, and if I quit now, I’d be pissed as hell if I got lung cancer later, LOL. I know that’s not even rational, but that’s the way I feel. It is one very bad addiction. I may quit again someday. I’ve done it before.  I don’t care to now, and that’s how it is. Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did your doc even listen to you? I think that after he hears "smoking," he doesn’t hear very much!  I think he believes all my problems are due to my tobacco use.  During my last physical (last year), I told him that every time I try to quit smoking, the tension I feel inside is simply unbearable.  I told him that I have a LOT of tension in my life and it is making me a nervous wreck.  And, the added stress of being EXPECTED to quit smoking before my next appointment with him makes me feel even worse.  I also told him that I could feel this tension physically in my upper left chest area (a big stress in itself!).  I described the feeling as a vague pressure that comes and goes.  I added that I was sure it was muscle tension from my being so tense all of the time.  Well, he sent me for a cardiac stress test and cat scan of my chest as he was sure that there must be a heart problem of some kind, (because of my smoking!)  I passed both of these and the cardio doc told me that I was out of shape but that I had good blood flow  to my heart, and that I should start exercising regularly.  When I went to the GP for a follow up, he was kind of surprised that there were no cardiac or other problems shown by my tests.  He then told me that I must have irritable bowel syndrome and that I should starting eating more fiber! As for the whole stop smoking thing, deal with one thing at a time.  The last thing you need to deal with on top of the anxiety/OCD is withdraw from nicotine. These are my thoughts exactly!!!! Thanks Jim!  That is what I told the GP at this recent physical!  And, I told him very specifically along with the visual aids (self tests).  In the past year, I did a lot of research, self examination, and analysis to try and figure out why I feel the way I do.  Thus, I came to the conclusion that I have to get a grip on my mental health before I will be able to quit smoking. I stopped chewing tobacco this past January after 17+ years.  I still have days where I want nicotine. I hear you about those cravings!  It scares me to hear my mother say that she still gets the occasional craving even after 35 years of not smoking:~( How long have you smoked for? I have been a smoker for 33 years, with about two of those years that I was "quit."   And, I think that each time I have quit, when I start smoking again, I smoke more than before.  It is like I am trying to make up for the ones I missed while I was "quit!" Quitting is a great goal for you to tackle someday. I know I have to quit, and I will one day.  But, I have figured out that it won’t be while I am feeling the way I currently feel. Run away from that bone-head and see a pdoc. I have my running shoes on!  This last visit to my GP is likely the last time I will go to him.  It has become very apparent to me that he is not the kind of doctor I need!  I almost feel like I should write him a letter to explain why I am not coming to him anymore.  Maybe it could make things easier for another person who has to deal with him. So in addition to a pdoc, I will be looking for a new gp also.  This is very difficult for me as I really, really, hate any kind of changes! Your doc must be crazy to think that your body could adjust to wellbutrin after only 2 weeks and *then* quit smoking cold turkey! This whole episode makes me wonder how a doctor can be so un-informed about the drugs that he is prescribing!  It sounds pretty dangerous to me!  I hate people who can’t admit to not knowing something! Thanks for the input Jim! robert — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Earlier this year, I had some symptoms, and before he even tested me, his exact words were, "You probably have esophageal cancer." – And I did have all of the symptoms, and I have the history of smoking and alcohol abuse (I am a recovering alcoholic).. but it was WRONG for him to even say anything, in hindsight.

Wow Sally! Your doc sounds worse than mine. What an ass!  And if you are anything like me, you probably don’t need to hear things like that!  (I think I have a touch of hypochondria.) The way I see it, and I may be rationalizing the fact that I don’t want to quit right now.. I’ve smoked for 30 years, and if I quit now, I’d be pissed as hell if I got lung cancer later, LOL.

I agree! LOL! It did make me think a lot when Peter Jennings died of lung cancer after 20 years of not smoking.  What a raw deal that was. …. It is one very bad addiction…..

I agree for sure!!!  And, I think it is very difficult for someone who has never been addicted to imagine just what a tight grip tobacco can get on a person.  I can’t say for sure, but I would bet that my doctor has never been addicted to anything.  And while I am on the subject of quitting an addiction, why is it that insurance companies and governments will not pay anything toward helping a person fight their addiction to tobacco?  It makes me mad that I have payed these cigarette taxes for 30 plus years,  and when the government sued the tobacco industry and got all that money out of them (supposedly on my behalf), they will not so much as buy me a piece of nicotine gum or a nicotine patch!  All that I can see out of that settlement is that the lawyers got rich, and the smokers got a bunch of public service commercials berating them to quit smoking!  I don’t find them to be of much help!   robert — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Some times I think I should just switch to smoking.

I have never chewed tobacco so I can’t say much about it, but I would definately not take up smoking cigarettes as a replacement! I personally am not looking for quantity of life but quality.

Yes, if living without the things I enjoy will let me live an additional 10 years, what is the point? Now I find my mind can wander too easily.  I also think nicotine

help keep mild OCD issues away. I believe that the physical actions of lighting up, smoking, and butting a cigarette (or loading a chew) is an obsessive compulsion in itself, even if it weren’t for the addiction to the nicotine!  And when I have quit before, I could feel myself trying to replace these actions with other actions like eating, walking, house cleaning, ect.  I can’t tell if this is because of the lack of nicotine or the fact that I am not going through the "usual" actions. It is probably a mixture of the two. Maybe I will try a pipe?

I smoked a pipe for about 3 years.  It seemed better for me than the cigarettes, but I could not say for sure because I was inhaling that too.  It sure did taste good though!  The oral satisfaction of a pipe is great!  You really get the taste for the tobacco.  It is probably a lot like chewing in that way.  I gave it up mostly for dental reasons. It stains one’s teeth much worse than cigarettes, and I found myself doing a lot of chewing on the mouthpieces of my pipes.  I would chew these mouthpieces so hard that I would eventually chew them in half. When I began to chip my teeth, it was time to go back to the softness of the cigarettes!  And when I do decide to try and quit the cigarettes, I am going to try just puffing away on one of those mouthpieces.  They still have the taste of the tobacco in them and I am hoping that will ease the cravings.  I figure it can’t hurt to try! robert — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Earlier this year, I had some symptoms, and before he even tested me, his exact words were, "You probably have esophageal cancer." – And I did have all of the symptoms, and I have the history of smoking and alcohol abuse (I am a recovering alcoholic).. but it was WRONG for him to even say anything, in hindsight. Wow Sally! Your doc sounds worse than mine. What an ass!  And if you are anything like me, you probably don’t need to hear things like that!  (I think I have a touch of hypochondria.) The way I see it, and I may be rationalizing the fact that I don’t want to quit right now.. I’ve smoked for 30 years, and if I quit now, I’d be pissed as hell if I got lung cancer later, LOL. I agree! LOL! It did make me think a lot when Peter Jennings died of lung cancer after 20 years of not smoking.  What a raw deal that was. …. It is one very bad addiction….. I agree for sure!!!  And, I think it is very difficult for someone who has never been addicted to imagine just what a tight grip tobacco can get on a person.  I can’t say for sure, but I would bet that my doctor has never been addicted to anything.  And while I am on the subject of quitting an addiction, why is it that insurance companies and governments will not pay anything toward helping a person fight their addiction to tobacco?  It makes me mad that I have payed these cigarette taxes for 30 plus years,  and when the government sued the tobacco industry and got all that money out of them (supposedly on my behalf), they will not so much as buy me a piece of nicotine gum or a nicotine patch!  All that I can see out of that settlement is that the lawyers got rich, and the smokers got a bunch of public service commercials berating them to quit smoking!  I don’t find them to be of much help! robert

Robert, I have quit more things than most people ever start. The vices I have retained are cigarettes, coffee and cussing.  I won’t list everything I have quit, but it’s a long list. Nicotene is the worst addictive substance there is.  Nothing is harder to stop than smoking.  And you are right… you know, those patches and gum..they are VERY expensive.  Real bad expensive.  I guess they rationalize it by saying, "Well, if you spend your money on this , you will save money by not buying tobacco.".. which I’m sure is true.. that is, if you really do stop.  I had the patches. I found myself taking them off to smoke, LOL.. that’s not the way for me personally to quit. The way I quit before was cold turkey, and if I quit again, that is what I will do.  It only hurts for a few days. The cigarette tax makes me mad. How dare they pick on dying people, LOL. I mean, seriously..the government does it under the guise that they "care" about our health, and it’s an incentive to make people want to stop smoking. HA! They care about their wallet, and that is all they care about. It’s surely not about concern for our health.  No.. they are taking advantage of the fact that smokers are hooked.. and WILL pay whatever amount of tax they care to lay on us..if they cared, they would make sure patches, gum, hypnosis, LOL..all that stuff was totally free – but they don’t WANT us to quit.  Hell, the smokers are paying more taxes than 10 other people that don’t smoke. If everyone in the country that smokes suddenly stopped.. well, it would be pretty bad for our country.   It’s the last thing the government wants.. for us to stop. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that after he hears "smoking," he doesn’t hear very much!  I think he believes all my problems are due to my tobacco use.  During my last physical (last year), I told him that every time I try to quit smoking, the tension I feel inside is simply unbearable.  I told him that I have a LOT of tension in my life and it is making me a nervous wreck.  And, the added stress of being EXPECTED to quit smoking before my next appointment with him makes me feel even worse.  I also told him that I could feel this tension physically in my upper left chest area (a big stress in itself!).  I described the feeling as a vague pressure that comes and goes.  I added that I was sure it was muscle tension from my being so tense all of the time.  Well, he sent me for a cardiac stress test and cat scan of my chest as he was sure that there must be a heart problem of some kind, (because of my smoking!)  I passed both of these and the cardio doc told me that I was out of shape but that I had good blood flow  to my heart, and that I should start exercising regularly.  When I went to the GP for a follow up, he was kind of surprised that there were no cardiac or other problems shown by my tests.  He then told me that I must have irritable bowel syndrome and that I should starting eating more fiber!

Hmmm.  I am not a MD so I don’t know if this guy is out in left field or not.  :  ) Maybe Chip can take a stab at this other docs thought process.  Chip is an MD. These are my thoughts exactly!!!! Thanks Jim!  That is what I told the GP at this recent physical!  And, I told him very specifically along with the visual aids (self tests).  In the past year, I did a lot of research, self examination, and analysis to try and figure out why I feel the way I do.  Thus, I came to the conclusion that I have to get a grip on my mental health before I will be able to quit smoking.

Just remember that your doc cannot force you to quit if you are not ready.  Find another doctor if you feel he is pressuring you too much. It is silly to *try* to quit when you are not *mentally* prepared for it.  If you know you won’t make it you will only end up with the side effect that often happen when people stop smoking like weight gain.  So basically all that happens is that you go through the motions of quitting and gain some weight and start smoking within 2 weeks.  Now you have the extra bonus of extra weight to lose all because someone pressured you into making a token effort to quit. I hear you about those cravings!  It scares me to hear my mother say that she still gets the occasional craving even after 35 years of not smoking:~(

Some times I think I should just switch to smoking.  I personally am not looking for quantity of life but quality.  I would rather die at 60 with a fairly happy life than live to 100 with a pretty unhappy life.  The whole reason to stop smoking is because of health issues.  However, nicotine did have some positive benefits for me over the last 17 years.   My concentration is now crap and has been since January.  I am a computer programmer and use to be able to concentrate on a task like a champ.  Now I find my mind can wander too easily.  I also think nicotine help keep mild OCD issues away.  Oh well, I will hang in there until the 6 month mark.  If i don’t feel better by then, I think I will really consider using nicotine again.  I don’t think I want to chew again. That can really mess up your gums.  The only issue I have about smoking is that I have always felt like my lungs are healthy.  I don’t feel out of breath, etc.   Maybe I will try a pipe?  Who know.  One day at a time. : ) I have been a smoker for 33 years, with about two of those years that I was "quit."   And, I think that each time I have quit, when I start smoking again, I smoke more than before.  It is like I am trying to make up for the ones I missed while I was "quit!"

Wow!  That is how long I have been a live!  You can do it if you want. My grandmother smoked for 50 years or something like that.  She quit cold turkey many years ago.  However, smoking did take its toll on her.   She has emphysema and her health has steadily declined over the last 8-10 years.  If I was her, I would have just smoked until I hit the grave.  If she did keep smoking, she probably would not still be here. However, IMO these last 5 years have not been easy for her.  Me, I would rather be with my Maker. : ) I know I have to quit, and I will one day.  But, I have figured out that it won’t be while I am feeling the way I currently feel.

You don’t *have* to do anything in life besides sleep, eat and die.  If you want to smoke until your last day, so be it.  However, remember that it always has to be YOUR choice. I have my running shoes on!  This last visit to my GP is likely the last time I will go to him.  It has become very apparent to me that he is not the kind of doctor I need!  I almost feel like I should write him a letter to explain why I am not coming to him anymore.  Maybe it could make things easier for another person who has to deal with him. So in addition to a pdoc, I will be looking for a new gp also.  This is very difficult for me as I really, really, hate any kind of changes!

The letter probably won’t do any good.  Sadly, there are a lot of general practitioners ( Chip excluded ; ) that just don’t want to really listen.  Some have this really big head notion that "they are the ones who went to med school and don’t need a patient telling them what is wrong".  I just left my previous doc because this is exactly how she is.   She would not listen *to* me.  It was as if she just listened for a few medical-buzz-words and would stop me and say, oh well let’s try this then. This whole episode makes me wonder how a doctor can be so un-informed about the drugs that he is prescribing!  It sounds pretty dangerous to me!  I hate people who can’t admit to not knowing something!

Most docs like him go by the marketing of the big drug companies. The big companies are making billions!  There are good family docs out there.  They are the ones that know they are the first line of health-defense.  They should evaluate and if it appears to be an area where a specialist is needed, they ship you off to one.  However, too many family docs are real quick to hand out meds for mental health issues.  I guess most of them assume you just have the "bored house wife" syndrome and will get over it after 3 months of Prozac. Thanks for the input Jim!

Any time : ) robert

Jim — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Did your doc even listen to you?

I think that after he hears "smoking," he doesn’t hear very much!  I think he believes all my problems are due to my tobacco use.  During my last physical (last year), I told him that every time I try to quit smoking, the tension I feel inside is simply unbearable.  I told him that I have a LOT of tension in my life and it is making me a nervous wreck.  And, the added stress of being EXPECTED to quit smoking before my next appointment with him makes me feel even worse.  I also told him that I could feel this tension physically in my upper left chest area (a big stress in itself!).  I described the feeling as a vague pressure that comes and goes.  I added that I was sure it was muscle tension from my being so tense all of the time.  Well, he sent me for a cardiac stress test and cat scan of my chest as he was sure that there must be a heart problem of some kind, (because of my smoking!)  I passed both of these and the cardio doc told me that I was out of shape but that I had good blood flow  to my heart, and that I should start exercising regularly.  When I went to the GP for a follow up, he was kind of surprised that there were no cardiac or other problems shown by my tests.  He then told me that I must have irritable bowel syndrome and that I should starting eating more fiber! As for the whole stop smoking thing, deal with one thing at a time.  The

last thing you need to deal with on top of the anxiety/OCD is withdraw from nicotine. These are my thoughts exactly!!!! Thanks Jim!  That is what I told the GP at this recent physical!  And, I told him very specifically along with the visual aids (self tests).  In the past year, I did a lot of research, self examination, and analysis to try and figure out why I feel the way I do.  Thus, I came to the conclusion that I have to get a grip on my mental health before I will be able to quit smoking. I stopped chewing tobacco this past January after 17+ years.  I still have days where I want nicotine.

I hear you about those cravings!  It scares me to hear my mother say that she still gets the occasional craving even after 35 years of not smoking:~( How long have you smoked for?

I have been a smoker for 33 years, with about two of those years that I was "quit."   And, I think that each time I have quit, when I start smoking again, I smoke more than before.  It is like I am trying to make up for the ones I missed while I was "quit!" Quitting is a great goal for you to tackle someday.

I know I have to quit, and I will one day.  But, I have figured out that it won’t be while I am feeling the way I currently feel. Run away from that bone-head and see a pdoc.

I have my running shoes on!  This last visit to my GP is likely the last time I will go to him.  It has become very apparent to me that he is not the kind of doctor I need!  I almost feel like I should write him a letter to explain why I am not coming to him anymore.  Maybe it could make things easier for another person who has to deal with him. So in addition to a pdoc, I will be looking for a new gp also.  This is very difficult for me as I really, really, hate any kind of changes! Your doc must be crazy to think that your body could

adjust to wellbutrin after only 2 weeks and *then* quit smoking cold turkey! This whole episode makes me wonder how a doctor can be so un-informed about the drugs that he is prescribing!  It sounds pretty dangerous to me!  I hate people who can’t admit to not knowing something! Thanks for the input Jim! robert — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Robert,

<snip Earlier this year, I had some symptoms, and before he even tested me, his exact words were, "You probably have esophageal cancer."

</snip Waaaaahhh!  Did you report that bum?  What doctor would throw that term around loosely?  Cancer is one of the most devastating diseases in the world.  I think it is appalling for a doctor to even mention it as a possibility.  Something simple like, "why don’t we get tested so we can rule it out" is fine.   However, just stating that you probably have it is insane. My aunt recently died of cancer indirectly.  She was in her 70’s and could literally out pace me.  She had so much life in her.  She did battle breast cancer a number of years ago and beat it.  Less than a year ago she went for a test and the x-ray people at the hospital said it came back.  She was put on chemo and radiation.  She died a few weeks later from a heart attack caused by the chemo.  Two days after she died we found out that the cancer did NOT come back.  The x-ray person goofed : ( Jim — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Hi group, I have been suffering with GAD and OCD for several years and recently, my anxiety began to get worse.  After much stress, I was finally able to work up the nerve to discuss it with my doctor (GP). I showed him the self tests that I printed off of an anxiety website.  To my surprise, he prescribed Wellbutrin SR. I asked him if that was a drug for depression, and he told me that it was but it was also used to treat anxiety.  I pointed out to him that I am mainly troubled by excessive worry and some OCD problems and that I didn’t have much trouble with depression. He assured me that this drug was effective for GAD and OCD, and that it would also help me quit smoking, which seems to be HIS biggest worry.

Did your doc even listen to you?  My advice is to go and see a psychiatrist who is trained in mental health issues.  Wellbutrin is great if you are depressed with little to no anxiety. As for the whole stop smoking thing, deal with one thing at a time.  The last thing you need to deal with on top of the anxiety/OCD is withdraw from nicotine.  I stopped chewing tobacco this past January after 17+ years.  I still have days where I want nicotine.  I am not sure if it was the right decision or not.  However it has been so long I keep telling my self to go a few more weeks.  Nicotine actually helps with OCD and since I quit, I have had some OCD issues come up.  I have never really had to deal much with OCD over the last 11 years.  Mostly anxiety, panic and depression.  How long have you smoked for?  I have chewed for about 17 years.  Nicotine stays in your system for a while.  Basically I have functioned with nicotine in my blood (and in my brain) for 17+ years and now all of a sudden I ripped that away.  It is a lot to adjust to. Quitting is a great goal for you to tackle someday.  However, IMO go for feeling better mentally first.  Once you get stable for a while, your confidence will build up and then you will have the will power to quit. He gave me the prescription and said that after you are on this for two weeks, I want you to quit smoking, cold turkey!

Run away from that bone-head and see a pdoc.  These meds can take weeks to *start* working.  2 weeks is just not enough time to see if wellbutrin would even work for you.  I have been trying for the last 4 months to find the right medication to help me since Lexapro popped out on me after 3 good years with it.  I recently stopped Zoloft after trying it for 4 weeks.  It took that long for my body to start to adjust and for me to see the side effects.  Your doc must be crazy to think that your body could adjust to wellbutrin after only 2 weeks and *then* quit smoking cold turkey!  His plan might work for a bored house wife that is feeling a little blue, but certainly not for someone with strong GAD/OCD. There are a lot of SSRI’s out there that have a good track record for helping with GAD, anxiety, panic, OCD, etc.  Zoloft has ben shown to work well and so has Luvox.  Zoloft gave me 7+ good years until I switched Lexapro.  I am currently trying Luvox now. Keep us posted, Jim — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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now you have made the big leap and told someome of your problem ,get a second opnion and a third if necessary.Some doctors are good some are not.They need to discuss the problem with you not just throw drugs at you. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi group, I have been suffering with GAD and OCD for several years and recently, my anxiety began to get worse.  After much stress, I was finally able to work up the nerve to discuss it with my doctor (GP). I showed him the self tests that I printed off of an anxiety website.  To my surprise, he prescribed Wellbutrin SR. I asked him if that was a drug for depression, and he told me that it was but it was also used to treat anxiety.  I pointed out to him that I am mainly troubled by excessive worry and some OCD problems and that I didn’t have much trouble with depression. He assured me that this drug was effective for GAD and OCD, and that it would also help me quit smoking, which seems to be HIS biggest worry. He gave me the prescription and said that after you are on this for two weeks, I want you to quit smoking, cold turkey! I was a bit taken back by this as I have been such a bundle of nerves with the GAD/OCD problems, that the thought of giving up the tobacco has been a bit out of the question. Currently, the cigarettes are the main relief from stress that I have. So now, I feel that the doctor is more concerned about my smoking than about my mental issues. I went to the manufacturer’s website only to discover that Wellbutrin isn’t even listed as an anti-anxiety drug. And, I can’t seem to find much information in support of my doctor’s stance that the Wellbutrin SR will help with my anxiety and OCD. In fact, most of what I have found says that most people actually experience an increase their levels of anxiety. I am afraid to even try this stuff because I don’t know if I could handle a sudden increase in my anxiety level. I don’t know if I should ask him for something else, or if I shoud try a different doctor. One thing is certain, and that is that I have to do something! I would welcome any input or suggestions from any of you in here!  Thanks, robert

Hi Robert, People with anxiety disorders don’t do well on Wellbutrin. It makes them even more anxious. I wouldn’t take it. Good meds for OCD and GAD would be an SSRI, like Lexapro, and a benzodiazepine, like Klonopin, Ativan, or Xanax. Best to see a psychiatrist for diagnosis and treatment. They know the most about how to prescribe psych meds. Since that’s all they do all day long. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Thanks everyone!  I guess I just needed a little reassurance that I was correct in thinking that my doctor was making a mistake.  I am very thankfull for the internet and to groups like this for making it possible to gather this kind of information.  I don’t think there is any substitute for the information gained from the experiences of others!  It really pays to check up on the information one gets from the medical community rather than just blindly following their advice! Again, thanks all! robert — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

People with anxiety disorders don’t do well on Wellbutrin. It makes them even more anxious. I wouldn’t take it. Good meds for OCD and GAD would be an SSRI, like Lexapro, and a benzodiazepine, like Klonopin, Ativan, or Xanax. Best to see a psychiatrist for diagnosis and treatment. They know the most about how to prescribe psych meds. Since that’s all they do all day long.

I also have OCD/Gad and Depression, but I’ve never heard of Wellbutrin being prescribed for someone with anxiety without depression. My naturopath had a bout of depression with *no anxiety* and was given Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin may work for folks with depression and no anxiety. I seriously question why it would be prescribed for a person with anxiety. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi group, I have been suffering with GAD and OCD for several years and recently, my anxiety began to get worse.  After much stress, I was finally able to work up the nerve to discuss it with my doctor (GP). I showed him the self tests that I printed off of an anxiety website.  To my surprise, he prescribed Wellbutrin SR. I asked him if that was a drug for depression, and he told me that it was but it was also used to treat anxiety.  I pointed out to him that I am mainly troubled by excessive worry and some OCD problems and that I didn’t have much trouble with depression. He assured me that this drug was effective for GAD and OCD, and that it would also help me quit smoking, which seems to be HIS biggest worry. He gave me the prescription and said that after you are on this for two weeks, I want you to quit smoking, cold turkey! I was a bit taken back by this as I have been such a bundle of nerves with the GAD/OCD problems, that the thought of giving up the tobacco has been a bit out of the question. Currently, the cigarettes are the main relief from stress that I have. So now, I feel that the doctor is more concerned about my smoking than about my mental issues. I went to the manufacturer’s website only to discover that Wellbutrin isn’t even listed as an anti-anxiety drug. And, I can’t seem to find much information in support of my doctor’s stance that the Wellbutrin SR will help with my anxiety and OCD. In fact, most of what I have found says that most people actually experience an increase their levels of anxiety. I am afraid to even try this stuff because I don’t know if I could handle a sudden increase in my anxiety level. I don’t know if I should ask him for something else, or if I shoud try a different doctor. One thing is certain, and that is that I have to do something! I would welcome any input or suggestions from any of you in here!  Thanks, robert

Hi Robert, Welcome to ASAPM.  We are glad you are here. Welbutrin made me nervous.  I was taking it for depression BEFORE I developed an anxiety disorder.  It DID make me feel as though I could quit smoking, but I couldn’t take it. I would make an appointment with a psychiatrist that understands anxiety disorders.. GP’s aren’t sufficiently trained to treat you.  I have had to educate my GP re: anesthesia and patients with GAD and panic disorder, who are also used to taking a benzo on a daily basis. GP’s just don’t understand.  Get thee to a pdoc  immediately. Again, welcome. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi group, I have been suffering with GAD and OCD for several years and recently, my anxiety began to get worse.  After much stress, I was finally able to work up the nerve to discuss it with my doctor (GP). I showed him the self tests that I printed off of an anxiety website.  To my surprise, he prescribed Wellbutrin SR. I asked him if that was a drug for depression, and he told me that it was but it was also used to treat anxiety.  I pointed out to him that I am mainly troubled by excessive worry and some OCD problems and that I didn’t have much trouble with depression. He assured me that this drug was effective for GAD and OCD, and that it would also help me quit smoking, which seems to be HIS biggest worry. He gave me the prescription and said that after you are on this for two weeks, I want you to quit smoking, cold turkey! I was a bit taken back by this as I have been such a bundle of nerves with the GAD/OCD problems, that the thought of giving up the tobacco has been a bit out of the question. Currently, the cigarettes are the main relief from stress that I have. So now, I feel that the doctor is more concerned about my smoking than about my mental issues. I went to the manufacturer’s website only to discover that Wellbutrin isn’t even listed as an anti-anxiety drug. And, I can’t seem to find much information in support of my doctor’s stance that the Wellbutrin SR will help with my anxiety and OCD. In fact, most of what I have found says that most people actually experience an increase their levels of anxiety. I am afraid to even try this stuff because I don’t know if I could handle a sudden increase in my anxiety level. I don’t know if I should ask him for something else, or if I shoud try a different doctor. One thing is certain, and that is that I have to do something! I would welcome any input or suggestions from any of you in here!  Thanks, robert — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

In article <fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidn…@rogers.com>,  "Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com> wrote: > Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. > Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!  The worst is definitely over (I > hope) but it would be nice to feel normal.  Did anyone who is finished > experience any surprises in the last few months?  Maybe I don’t want to > know!

Only one surprise after my six months and that was slipping into a slow depression that had been easily treatable.  Other than that everything is good! > Anyway, I’m very optimistic about the end of tx…I was clear at 12 weeks > and like I said, am confident that the worst of the sides were over.  This > group has been very helpful, even though I mostly lurk.  Thanks, everyone!

You might get to feeling dragged down, a lot of people do, but the last couple of weeks – for me, at least – were a breeze (relatively) knowing it was going to be over soon. G

Response:

In article <rMmdnRyfN4h8IgTeRVn…@comcast.com>,  "Dragonback" <Dra…@comcast.net> wrote: > At least in my case the last few months-weeks-days were pretty easy. Today > is the first day of no Riba, tonight will be the 1st Friday (in the last 48) > with no shot!

I felt noticeably better every day after stopping the Riba.  Enjoy it! G

Response:

Goes by slow doesn’t it Dave!   Hey wanted to ask you about the rash, my doctor gave me a new cream and this one works well for me.   buster ( don’t have it handy to give u the name right now but if u want it respond) "Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com> wrote in message

news:fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@rogers.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. > Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!  The worst is definitely over (I > hope) but it would be nice to feel normal.  Did anyone who is finished > experience any surprises in the last few months?  Maybe I don’t want to > know! > Anyway, I’m very optimistic about the end of tx…I was clear at 12 weeks > and like I said, am confident that the worst of the sides were over.  This > group has been very helpful, even though I mostly lurk.  Thanks, everyone! > Get well and stay well, > David > Day 224 of 336.  ;-)

Response:

"Waterspider" <waterspi…@moonlight.net> wrote in message

news:11pjhsq8h30b965@corp.supernews.com… >after I did my shot, I would draw a big checkmark in the next empty box.

Done it!  ;-) David

Response:

The rash lasted about 2 months, but is mostly gone now!  I think my body just adjusted…I don’t think it was any of the lotions, potions or creams. Thanks Buster! David PS  What is the cream?  Others may benefit. "buster" <as…@cox.net> wrote in message

news:Ewqmf.52506$sg5.16325@dukeread12… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Goes by slow doesn’t it Dave!   Hey wanted to ask you about the rash, my > doctor gave me a new cream and this one works well for me.   buster ( > don’t have it handy to give u the name right now but if u want it respond)

Response:

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:24:30 -0500, "Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com>, in message ID <fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidn…@rogers.com>, in the newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: >Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. >Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!  The worst is definitely over (I >hope) but it would be nice to feel normal.  Did anyone who is finished >experience any surprises in the last few months?  Maybe I don’t want to >know!

Well I did bump along the bottom emotionally in the last third of tx. IThat was the pointwhen it started to really grind me down.  The good news for you though is that this info is totally irrelevant to you because my last third was from 16 to 24 weeks.  You’ve already been through that bit.  Also, it affects everybody differently anyway. — Paul Use the reply by email facility in your newsreader to send email

Response:

Wow David I remember like yesterday when you started – time flies even when your not having fun eh? Mags "Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com> wrote in message

news:fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@rogers.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. > Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!  The worst is definitely over (I > hope) but it would be nice to feel normal.  Did anyone who is finished > experience any surprises in the last few months?  Maybe I don’t want to > know! > Anyway, I’m very optimistic about the end of tx…I was clear at 12 weeks > and like I said, am confident that the worst of the sides were over.  This > group has been very helpful, even though I mostly lurk.  Thanks, everyone! > Get well and stay well, > David > Day 224 of 336.  ;-)

Response:

"Dragonback" wrote… > …Today is the first day of no Riba, tonight will be the 1st Friday (in > the last 48) with no shot! > Scott

WOO-HOOOOO!!!  That must be a sweet feeling! D

Response:

"Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com> wrote in message

news:fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@rogers.com… > Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. > Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!

When I started tx, I made a little calendar of weeks of treatment with the date, shot number and number of remaining shots. I hung in on the wall in my bathroom, and each Friday, after I did my shot, I would draw a big checkmark in the next empty box. And you think you’re obsessing…. hahahahaha, you’re not even close! Seriously, congratulations Dave, you’re well on the home stretch and the ball is still way up in the sky. I’ll bet you can see home plate from where you are, and you’re getting closer to it every day… the crowd roars, "DAY – VID – DAY – VID – DAY – VID – " and the popcorn vendors can’t take their eyes off the action on the field! Waterspider

Response:

I obsess about numbers chronically- so I can just imagine  what I’m going to be like come treatment start.   Doug "Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com> wrote in message

news:fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@rogers.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. > Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!  The worst is definitely over (I > hope) but it would be nice to feel normal.  Did anyone who is finished > experience any surprises in the last few months?  Maybe I don’t want to > know! > Anyway, I’m very optimistic about the end of tx…I was clear at 12 weeks > and like I said, am confident that the worst of the sides were over.  This > group has been very helpful, even though I mostly lurk.  Thanks, everyone! > Get well and stay well, > David > Day 224 of 336.  ;-)

Response:

doug, when is your birthday, when were you born and where?  I have the tools to help you on your ride. Bob "Doug" <dttr…@adelphia.net> wrote in message

news:M8SdnQGvlMgPUQTeRVn-jQ@adelphia.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I obsess about numbers chronically- so I can just imagine  what I’m going >to be like come treatment start.   Doug > "Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com> wrote in message > news:fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@rogers.com… >> Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. >> Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!  The worst is definitely over (I >> hope) but it would be nice to feel normal.  Did anyone who is finished >> experience any surprises in the last few months?  Maybe I don’t want to >> know! >> Anyway, I’m very optimistic about the end of tx…I was clear at 12 weeks >> and like I said, am confident that the worst of the sides were over. >> This group has been very helpful, even though I mostly lurk.  Thanks, >> everyone! >> Get well and stay well, >> David >> Day 224 of 336.  ;-)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Waterspider wrote: > "Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com> wrote in message > news:fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@rogers.com… >>Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. >>Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit! > When I started tx, I made a little calendar of weeks of treatment with the > date, shot number and number of remaining shots. I hung in on the wall in my > bathroom, and each Friday, after I did my shot, I would draw a big checkmark > in the next empty box. And you think you’re obsessing…. hahahahaha, you’re > not even close! > Seriously, congratulations Dave, you’re well on the home stretch and the > ball is still way up in the sky. I’ll bet you can see home plate from where > you are, and you’re getting closer to it every day… the crowd roars, > "DAY – VID – DAY – VID – DAY – VID – " and the popcorn vendors can’t take > their eyes off the action on the field! > Waterspider

I seem to remember keeping a running track of my shots all the way to number 60. Good thing I quit when I did because I wouldn’t have been able to keep posting from the hospital a week after stopping. Dwight

Response:

Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!  The worst is definitely over (I hope) but it would be nice to feel normal.  Did anyone who is finished experience any surprises in the last few months?  Maybe I don’t want to know! Anyway, I’m very optimistic about the end of tx…I was clear at 12 weeks and like I said, am confident that the worst of the sides were over.  This group has been very helpful, even though I mostly lurk.  Thanks, everyone! Get well and stay well, David Day 224 of 336.  ;-)

Response:

At least in my case the last few months-weeks-days were pretty easy. Today is the first day of no Riba, tonight will be the 1st Friday (in the last 48) with no shot! Scott "Canadave" <yeahri…@noway.com> wrote in message

news:fIWdnYwMofdWIATenZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@rogers.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Two-thirds done.  66.7%  32/48.  32 down, 16 to go. > Obsessing about numbers?  Maybe a bit!  The worst is definitely over (I > hope) but it would be nice to feel normal.  Did anyone who is finished > experience any surprises in the last few months?  Maybe I don’t want to > know! > Anyway, I’m very optimistic about the end of tx…I was clear at 12 weeks > and like I said, am confident that the worst of the sides were over.  This > group has been very helpful, even though I mostly lurk.  Thanks, everyone! > Get well and stay well, > David > Day 224 of 336.  ;-)

Response:

Question:

"Ollie Sandcastle" (noth…@omegapoint.com) writes: > And quizzing glasses…and silk cravats…

Sing it now: "no, no, not me, "all I care about iiiIIIIIIiiis looove!" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OTS > "paneon" <paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org> wrote in message > news:dlke8l$2m86$1@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au… >> "Ollie Sandcastle" <noth…@omegapoint.com> wrote in message >> news:bv8ff.5127$D03.2733@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net… >> > And frock coats too. >> I’d like to see a return of powered wigs for the dandies amongst us. >> La’ to you too, sir! >> (-paneon)

Response:

And sword canes & pepper-barreled pistols. "Ollie Sandcastle" <noth…@omegapoint.com> wrote in news:SFtff.5296 $D03.1…@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And quizzing glasses…and silk cravats… > OTS > "paneon" <paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org> wrote in message > news:dlke8l$2m86$1@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au… >> "Ollie Sandcastle" <noth…@omegapoint.com> wrote in message >> news:bv8ff.5127$D03.2733@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net… >> > And frock coats too. >> I’d like to see a return of powered wigs for the dandies amongst us. >> La’ to you too, sir! >> (-paneon)

– As for the pastor, after four days of listening to science experts dismantling the case for intelligent design, he was unimpressed.   "They’re babblers," said the pastor, the Rev. Jim Grove, who leads a 40- member independent Baptist church outside of Dover. "The more Ph.D.’s you get, it seems like the further away from God you get."  (NY Times, 10-2- 05)

Response:

10 Gallon Hats look best to me.  Lots of shade  & insulation. "Ollie Sandcastle" <noth…@omegapoint.com> wrote in news:wFtff.5295$D03.5286@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The thing with these hats is that, looking at ‘em, they seem most > excellently fashionable and practical. Like, they almost seem to have > guttering for when it rains. > OTS > "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message > news:dlkc27$med$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… >> Tricorns I sure am all for. How nice and elegant and well, had >> character all right… They never made a hat so wow before nor after. >> I guess they would be too complicated to put into fashion, due to >> their shape and material and feathers, where it would cost too much >> to ship them "industrially" enough to make a fashion of it starting >> again. >> Imagine living in those days and one day, having your apointment with >> your hat maker? The feeling it must have been, like a special day… >> I’d not want the women’s hats of those days to come back though. Not >> the ones with the grapefruits and watermelons and pumpkins:) >> Hats used to fit me well enough, when younger, where I just wished I >> could wear them without looking six ft 2, being already tall. >> One day in a store, my sisters and I were playng trying on hats ad I >> remember a big wide black felt one I tried where they were shouting >> all excited how great it looked on me and how I had to buy it. But it >> exactly felt like I would have suddenly been 6 ft 2, and well, it was >> a fortune > for >> us at the time, a big 26 bucks:). >> We left the store without it, but the next week, it landed on my bed: >> one of my sisters had bought it for me:). (I was in my mid teens). >> I dunno who snatched it. It just was gone one day., as I realize just >> now writing this. Wonder what happened to it…. >> There was another I wore for years through my teens. Nothing of >> fashion, if everyoen wanted one like that, not knowing what they ever >> were > themself:) >> They actually were the headcaps that were worn when milking cows, to >> not have their tails split your head open. >> Two were left at the farm, when we bought it, with tons of other >> antiques, namely old farm equipment now worth a fortune for exactly >> being hard to > find. >> They were made out of horses mane (Engl? Sp?) hair >> , in a sort of net, lil squares forming a net. >> I liked it for keeping my hair up, but also for how it would not >> pevent the sun from touching my hair, cause summer got the >> copper-gold colors of it to just be livelier:), and cause it let my >> head breath too. >> My younger sister immediately asked where I got it, and when I told >> her, she went to fetch the other:). I remember us wearing them all >> the time, as we had hair down to our hips. Was an easy and fast way >> to tuck it safely no matter what we did, be it playing tennis or >> baling hay. >> But those would have caught on, given how many girls asked where they >> could find one. But then, that was me. I also had found a pair of >> Nike running shoes that no one seemed to ahve ehard about: when >> adidas became famous, nike was literally out of business way back. >> Poeple had forgotten they ever had existed at that time, really. And >> I happened to fall on a pair of nikes, all white without the adidas >> stripes that everyoen wore then, cant rememebr what their design of >> *then* was, the only pair left in an old country feneral store…and >> they fit me! I dunno how many times I was asked about where they >> coudl be bought. Later, many years later in fact, Nike came back >> again and everyoen was wearing them. By that time, I had found an old >> but brand new original 1950 pair of them black runnign shoes, with >> the white soul and white laces, and coming over the ankles… >> At the time, they were completely gone from the map. Only seen in old >> movies, sort of thing. But within a few years (2?) they made a come >> back:) >> I liked to bring back old forgotten things that were neat:) >> I hated designers signature things and hated to be used as a sign, so >> I would remove all markings on my jeans, one stitch at a time, one >> leather branded patch at a time. When people woudl ask where I got my >> jeans, they would not know. I;d of course pick what was not in >> fashion but *fit me*. While everyoen else picked the designer’s name >> even if it did not fit them. I had noticed by then that if I wore >> soemthign *I* liked, everyoen else wanted to wear it, and removing >> all brand names on my clothes then became a habit. >> In the recent years, I had to wear hand me downs, and without chosing >> if they fot me, given being ill and jobless for so many years. Since >> it all fots me all wrong, I *do* leave thedesigners name on them, >> heheeheheh:) Human beings should not be used as commercial signs. >> Unless they pay us for the rented space, nah! >> I’d not even put the tatoo of any guy’s name on my rear end, why >> woudl I allow sissy designers to write theirs???;-) Hehehehe:). BUT >> if it looks g****m awful on me, and I have no choice to wear it? Then >> is the time to leave their name on it:):). >>  "Ollie Sandcastle" (noth…@omegapoint.com) >> writes: > And frock coats too. >> > OTS

– As for the pastor, after four days of listening to science experts dismantling the case for intelligent design, he was unimpressed.   "They’re babblers," said the pastor, the Rev. Jim Grove, who leads a 40- member independent Baptist church outside of Dover. "The more Ph.D.’s you get, it seems like the further away from God you get."  (NY Times, 10-2- 05)

Response:

And quizzing glasses…and silk cravats… OTS "paneon" <paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org> wrote in message

news:dlke8l$2m86$1@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Ollie Sandcastle" <noth…@omegapoint.com> wrote in message > news:bv8ff.5127$D03.2733@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net… > > And frock coats too. > I’d like to see a return of powered wigs for the dandies amongst us. > La’ to you too, sir! > (-paneon)

Response:

"Ollie Sandcastle" (noth…@omegapoint.com) writes: > The thing with these hats is that, looking at ‘em, they seem most > excellently fashionable and practical. Like, they almost seem to have > guttering for when it rains.

Mppft:) And wings for when it winds, then….?? I always foigured that they made them this way to not go against the grain: when taking their hats off or keeping them in their hands in church, men must have made the sides curl in in time and ruin the hats. But with the tricorn, even if you roll the rims in, no big deal: made that way, therefore the hat is not ruined nor ruinable unless you sit on it. And to prevent that, they would put big tall hard feathers on the hat, of course;-)  >  > OTS >  > "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> news:dlkc27$med$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… >> Tricorns I sure am all for. How nice and elegant and well, had character >> all right… They never made a hat so wow before nor after. >> I guess they would be too complicated to put into fashion, due to their >> shape and material and feathers, where it would cost too much to ship them >> "industrially" enough to make a fashion of it starting again. >> Imagine living in those days and one day, having your apointment with your >> hat maker? The feeling it must have been, like a special day… >> I’d not want the women’s hats of those days to come back though. Not the >> ones with the grapefruits and watermelons and pumpkins:) >> Hats used to fit me well enough, when younger, where I just wished I could >> wear them without looking six ft 2, being already tall. >> One day in a store, my sisters and I were playng trying on hats ad I >> remember a big wide black felt one I tried where they were shouting all >> excited how great it looked on me and how I had to buy it. But it exactly >> felt like I would have suddenly been 6 ft 2, and well, it was a fortune > for >> us at the time, a big 26 bucks:). >> We left the store without it, but the next week, it landed on my bed: one >> of my sisters had bought it for me:). (I was in my mid teens). >> I dunno who snatched it. It just was gone one day., as I realize just now >> writing this. Wonder what happened to it…. >> There was another I wore for years through my teens. Nothing of fashion, >> if everyoen wanted one like that, not knowing what they ever were > themself:) >> They actually were the headcaps that were worn when milking cows, to not >> have their tails split your head open. >> Two were left at the farm, when we bought it, with tons of other antiques, >> namely old farm equipment now worth a fortune for exactly being hard to > find. >> They were made out of horses mane (Engl? Sp?) hair >> , in a sort of net, lil squares forming a net. >> I liked it for keeping my hair up, but also for how it would not pevent >> the sun from touching my hair, cause summer got the copper-gold colors of >> it to just be livelier:), and cause it let my head breath too. >> My younger sister immediately asked where I got it, and when I told her, >> she went to fetch the other:). I remember us wearing them all the time, as >> we had hair down to our hips. Was an easy and fast way to tuck it safely >> no matter what we did, be it playing tennis or baling hay. >> But those would have caught on, given how many girls asked where they >> could find one. But then, that was me. I also had found a pair of Nike >> running shoes that no one seemed to ahve ehard about: when adidas became >> famous, nike was literally out of business way back. Poeple had forgotten >> they ever had existed at that time, really. And I happened to fall on a >> pair of nikes, all white without the adidas stripes that everyoen wore >> then, cant rememebr what their design of *then* was, the only pair left in >> an old country feneral store…and they fit me! >> I dunno how many times I was asked about where they coudl be bought. >> Later, many years later in fact, Nike came back again and everyoen was >> wearing them. By that time, I had found an old but brand new original 1950 >> pair of them black runnign shoes, with the white soul and white laces, and >> coming over the ankles… >> At the time, they were completely gone from the map. Only seen in old >> movies, sort of thing. But within a few years (2?) they made a come back:) >> I liked to bring back old forgotten things that were neat:) >> I hated designers signature things and hated to be used as a sign, so I >> would remove all markings on my jeans, one stitch at a time, one leather >> branded patch at a time. When people woudl ask where I got my jeans, they >> would not know. I;d of course pick what was not in fashion but *fit me*. >> While everyoen else picked the designer’s name even if it did not fit >> them. I had noticed by then that if I wore soemthign *I* liked, everyoen >> else wanted to wear it, and removing all brand names on my clothes then >> became a habit. >> In the recent years, I had to wear hand me downs, and without chosing if >> they fot me, given being ill and jobless for so many years. Since it all >> fots me all wrong, I *do* leave thedesigners name on them, heheeheheh:) >> Human beings should not be used as commercial signs. >> Unless they pay us for the rented space, nah! >> I’d not even put the tatoo of any guy’s name on my rear end, why woudl I >> allow sissy designers to write theirs???;-) Hehehehe:). BUT if it looks >> g****m awful on me, and I have no choice to wear it? Then is the time to >> leave their name on it:):). >>  "Ollie Sandcastle" (noth…@omegapoint.com) >> writes: > And frock coats too. >> > OTS

Response:

"Ollie Sandcastle" <noth…@omegapoint.com> wrote in message

news:bv8ff.5127$D03.2733@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net… > And frock coats too.

I’d like to see a return of powered wigs for the dandies amongst us. La’ to you too, sir! (-paneon)

Response:

Ollie Sandcastle on 18/11/2005 12:37 am wrote: > And frock coats too. > OTS

And those wonderful Empire line gowns.

Response:

"paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: > "Ollie Sandcastle" <noth…@omegapoint.com> wrote in message > news:bv8ff.5127$D03.2733@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net… >> And frock coats too. > I’d like to see a return of powered wigs for the dandies amongst us.

Yeah!! For both genders! I was thinking this week watching a movie where they had those that it would make neat winter hats, in fact! They’d cover the neck, the eras, etc, and would look neat:)  > – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> La’ to you too, sir! > (-paneon)

Response:

The thing with these hats is that, looking at ‘em, they seem most excellently fashionable and practical. Like, they almost seem to have guttering for when it rains. OTS "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message

news:dlkc27$med$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tricorns I sure am all for. How nice and elegant and well, had character > all right… They never made a hat so wow before nor after. > I guess they would be too complicated to put into fashion, due to their > shape and material and feathers, where it would cost too much to ship them > "industrially" enough to make a fashion of it starting again. > Imagine living in those days and one day, having your apointment with your > hat maker? The feeling it must have been, like a special day… > I’d not want the women’s hats of those days to come back though. Not the > ones with the grapefruits and watermelons and pumpkins:) > Hats used to fit me well enough, when younger, where I just wished I could > wear them without looking six ft 2, being already tall. > One day in a store, my sisters and I were playng trying on hats ad I > remember a big wide black felt one I tried where they were shouting all > excited how great it looked on me and how I had to buy it. But it exactly > felt like I would have suddenly been 6 ft 2, and well, it was a fortune for > us at the time, a big 26 bucks:). > We left the store without it, but the next week, it landed on my bed: one > of my sisters had bought it for me:). (I was in my mid teens). > I dunno who snatched it. It just was gone one day., as I realize just now > writing this. Wonder what happened to it…. > There was another I wore for years through my teens. Nothing of fashion, > if everyoen wanted one like that, not knowing what they ever were themself:) > They actually were the headcaps that were worn when milking cows, to not > have their tails split your head open. > Two were left at the farm, when we bought it, with tons of other antiques, > namely old farm equipment now worth a fortune for exactly being hard to find. > They were made out of horses mane (Engl? Sp?) hair > , in a sort of net, lil squares forming a net. > I liked it for keeping my hair up, but also for how it would not pevent > the sun from touching my hair, cause summer got the copper-gold colors of > it to just be livelier:), and cause it let my head breath too. > My younger sister immediately asked where I got it, and when I told her, > she went to fetch the other:). I remember us wearing them all the time, as > we had hair down to our hips. Was an easy and fast way to tuck it safely > no matter what we did, be it playing tennis or baling hay. > But those would have caught on, given how many girls asked where they > could find one. But then, that was me. I also had found a pair of Nike > running shoes that no one seemed to ahve ehard about: when adidas became > famous, nike was literally out of business way back. Poeple had forgotten > they ever had existed at that time, really. And I happened to fall on a > pair of nikes, all white without the adidas stripes that everyoen wore > then, cant rememebr what their design of *then* was, the only pair left in > an old country feneral store…and they fit me! > I dunno how many times I was asked about where they coudl be bought. > Later, many years later in fact, Nike came back again and everyoen was > wearing them. By that time, I had found an old but brand new original 1950 > pair of them black runnign shoes, with the white soul and white laces, and > coming over the ankles… > At the time, they were completely gone from the map. Only seen in old > movies, sort of thing. But within a few years (2?) they made a come back:) > I liked to bring back old forgotten things that were neat:) > I hated designers signature things and hated to be used as a sign, so I > would remove all markings on my jeans, one stitch at a time, one leather > branded patch at a time. When people woudl ask where I got my jeans, they > would not know. I;d of course pick what was not in fashion but *fit me*. > While everyoen else picked the designer’s name even if it did not fit > them. I had noticed by then that if I wore soemthign *I* liked, everyoen > else wanted to wear it, and removing all brand names on my clothes then > became a habit. > In the recent years, I had to wear hand me downs, and without chosing if > they fot me, given being ill and jobless for so many years. Since it all > fots me all wrong, I *do* leave thedesigners name on them, heheeheheh:) > Human beings should not be used as commercial signs. > Unless they pay us for the rented space, nah! > I’d not even put the tatoo of any guy’s name on my rear end, why woudl I > allow sissy designers to write theirs???;-) Hehehehe:). BUT if it looks > g****m awful on me, and I have no choice to wear it? Then is the time to > leave their name on it:):). >  "Ollie Sandcastle" (noth…@omegapoint.com) > writes: > And frock coats too. > > OTS

Response:

And frock coats too. OTS

Response:

Tricorns I sure am all for. How nice and elegant and well, had character all right… They never made a hat so wow before nor after. I guess they would be too complicated to put into fashion, due to their shape and material and feathers, where it would cost too much to ship them "industrially" enough to make a fashion of it starting again. Imagine living in those days and one day, having your apointment with your hat maker? The feeling it must have been, like a special day… I’d not want the women’s hats of those days to come back though. Not the ones with the grapefruits and watermelons and pumpkins:) Hats used to fit me well enough, when younger, where I just wished I could wear them without looking six ft 2, being already tall. One day in a store, my sisters and I were playng trying on hats ad I remember a big wide black felt one I tried where they were shouting all excited how great it looked on me and how I had to buy it. But it exactly felt like I would have suddenly been 6 ft 2, and well, it was a fortune for us at the time, a big 26 bucks:). We left the store without it, but the next week, it landed on my bed: one of my sisters had bought it for me:). (I was in my mid teens). I dunno who snatched it. It just was gone one day., as I realize just now writing this. Wonder what happened to it…. There was another I wore for years through my teens. Nothing of fashion, if everyoen wanted one like that, not knowing what they ever were themself:) They actually were the headcaps that were worn when milking cows, to not have their tails split your head open. Two were left at the farm, when we bought it, with tons of other antiques, namely old farm equipment now worth a fortune for exactly being hard to find. They were made out of horses mane (Engl? Sp?) hair , in a sort of net, lil squares forming a net. I liked it for keeping my hair up, but also for how it would not pevent the sun from touching my hair, cause summer got the copper-gold colors of it to just be livelier:), and cause it let my head breath too. My younger sister immediately asked where I got it, and when I told her, she went to fetch the other:). I remember us wearing them all the time, as we had hair down to our hips. Was an easy and fast way to tuck it safely no matter what we did, be it playing tennis or baling hay. But those would have caught on, given how many girls asked where they could find one. But then, that was me. I also had found a pair of Nike running shoes that no one seemed to ahve ehard about: when adidas became famous, nike was literally out of business way back. Poeple had forgotten they ever had existed at that time, really. And I happened to fall on a pair of nikes, all white without the adidas stripes that everyoen wore then, cant rememebr what their design of *then* was, the only pair left in an old country feneral store…and they fit me! I dunno how many times I was asked about where they coudl be bought. Later, many years later in fact, Nike came back again and everyoen was wearing them. By that time, I had found an old but brand new original 1950 pair of them black runnign shoes, with the white soul and white laces, and coming over the ankles… At the time, they were completely gone from the map. Only seen in old movies, sort of thing. But within a few years (2?) they made a come back:) I liked to bring back old forgotten things that were neat:) I hated designers signature things and hated to be used as a sign, so I would remove all markings on my jeans, one stitch at a time, one leather branded patch at a time. When people woudl ask where I got my jeans, they would not know. I;d of course pick what was not in fashion but *fit me*. While everyoen else picked the designer’s name even if it did not fit them. I had noticed by then that if I wore soemthign *I* liked, everyoen else wanted to wear it, and removing all brand names on my clothes then became a habit. In the recent years, I had to wear hand me downs, and without chosing if they fot me, given being ill and jobless for so many years. Since it all fots me all wrong, I *do* leave thedesigners name on them, heheeheheh:) Human beings should not be used as commercial signs. Unless they pay us for the rented space, nah! I’d not even put the tatoo of any guy’s name on my rear end, why woudl I allow sissy designers to write theirs???;-) Hehehehe:). BUT if it looks g****m awful on me, and I have no choice to wear it? Then is the time to leave their name on it:):).  "Ollie Sandcastle" (noth…@omegapoint.com) writes: > And frock coats too. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OTS

Response:

Question:

>Finally finished "Under the Banner of Heaven", started "In a Sunburned >Country"

What’s "In a Sunburned Country" like? >Fuzzy tan fleece-lined boots

Oh no, not ugg boots?

Response:

MrWigglesworth wrote: >>Finally finished "Under the Banner of Heaven", started "In a Sunburned >>Country" > What’s "In a Sunburned Country" like?

It’s about Australia, and it’s funny. I’m only about 5 pages into it, so that’s all I can tell you. >>Fuzzy tan fleece-lined boots > Oh no, not ugg boots?

No, they’re "Paris Blues", with flowers embroidered on them. They are every bit as hideous and comfortable as Uggs, though. From what I hear. I also have a blue pair, which I like less well but wear more often because I don’t want to wear the tan ones out. —      why? Morals is about having the right to do everything you’re strong enough to do, or not.  – Frank, french philosophy student

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 In article <1131293960.700946.140…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Virgo Cluster <gamma_n…@yahoo.com> wrote: >Me either, but I like the one in this post. Did you catch the extra >"William P" I stuck in my previous post’s quote?

William P appears four times in this post. Did you write it with the first letter in each line or what?  I did that once (though not with the string "William P") in a high school essay where I declared (to an unfortunately wider-than-intended audience) undying AFC lvu to some MOTOS. – — It is manipulative to not be manipulative. —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Please fetch my new key 804177F8 from hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net/ iD8DBQFDb33OwyMv24BBd/gRAoqAAKCfhJBodDg9s1f6p7Dd6g+CWXwwBQCfZsr3 Gt8I8hONZAr7bnORTtnOdVA= =4ZVi —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -meg wrote: > What’s with the Saturday night silence?  Seriously, I can’t believe > that you’re all out.  I’m sure not. > What are you doing tonight? > A) Playing computer games > B) Watching TV/movies > C) Reading > D) Homework > E) Internet crap > F) Working out > G) Coming in from an unsuccessful date > H) Still on a successful date, posting from bed > I)  Nothing > J) (fill in the blank)

I was sleeping but now I’m not. > What are your plans for tomorrow?

Finish packing. > Read any good books lately?

Nope > If you’re on a full bus, do you give up your seat for: > A) An elderly or disabled person > B) Women who look like your mom > C) Someone of either gender carrying heavy stuff > D) All females > E) All males > F) Attractive MOTAS > G) (fill in the blank) > H) No one. > I) No one, and I put my bag on the seat next to me so no one can sit > there either. > J) Busses are for peasants. > K) I don’t leave home.  If you leave home you must not be shy.

L I don’t ride the bust. It is too scary. I hace a car. > Sorry, I’m just curious about that one. I spend a lot of time on the > bus right now and it’s interesting to see who does what. > What do your favorite shoes look like?

green light up thongs. > Who is the most absurdly bored person on this froup?

varies —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -meg wrote: > What’s with the Saturday night silence?  Seriously, I can’t believe > that you’re all out.  I’m sure not. > What are you doing tonight? > A) Playing computer games > B) Watching TV/movies > C) Reading > D) Homework > E) Internet crap > F) Working out > G) Coming in from an unsuccessful date > H) Still on a successful date, posting from bed > I)  Nothing > J) (fill in the blank)

J) Sleeping > What are your plans for tomorrow?

Sleeping > Read any good books lately?

Finally finished "Under the Banner of Heaven", started "In a Sunburned Country" > If you’re on a full bus, do you give up your seat for: > A) An elderly or disabled person > B) Women who look like your mom > C) Someone of either gender carrying heavy stuff > D) All females > E) All males > F) Attractive MOTAS > G) (fill in the blank) > H) No one. > I) No one, and I put my bag on the seat next to me so no one can sit > there either. > J) Busses are for peasants. > K) I don’t leave home.  If you leave home you must not be shy.

A), C), K) and G) People who look carsick. > Sorry, I’m just curious about that one. I spend a lot of time on the > bus right now and it’s interesting to see who does what. > What do your favorite shoes look like?

Fuzzy tan fleece-lined boots > Who is the most absurdly bored person on this froup?

Troll —      why? Morals is about having the right to do everything you’re strong enough to do, or not.  – Frank, french philosophy student

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 In article <1131251221.457530.124…@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> meg <notstalka…@gmail.com> wrote: >What’s with the Saturday night silence?  Seriously, I can’t believe >that you’re all out.  I’m sure not.

I was at home. >What are you doing tonight?

"Today" (Saturday) I was messing around in the garden, planting five chilli plants out from their shared pot, to free them from their tangled roots. >B) Watching TV/movies

Probably, somewhere along the line. >C) Reading

Reading.  A comparison between CANDU and Chernobyl.  Also the newspaper, and a printed copy of the Wikipedia article "Propaganda". >E) Internet crap

Printed on dead trees… >F) Working out

Walking the dog. >What are your plans for tomorrow? >Read any good books lately?

No.  I get distracted too easily and it took me a few weeks of weekends to read dead-treeized Wikipedia articles on Chernobyl and nuclear weapon design.  I think I squeezed in an article on event horizons, but that’s a very short one. >If you’re on a full bus, do you give up your seat for:

Z) Nobody. I am Rosa Parks. Y) Anyone.  I am a obsequious nice guy.  I’d give up my seat apologetically to a tattooed Jim Summers certified Bad Boy. X) Nobody.  I am recovering. >F) Attractive MOTAS

Two years ago while I was in Germany the bus was filling up and I took my suitcase onto my lap to make space for whoever it would be who happened to take it.  It turned out to bu such a (very) attractive MOTOS.  Gosh, I must go to Ramstadt again… now I just need an excuse. >J) Busses are for peasants.

Buses are for profligate wasters.  I walk barefoot uphill both ways to save a penny! >What do your favorite shoes look like?

I’m a straight guy.  I don’t look at shoes.  I wear my hiking boots every day. >Who is the most absurdly bored person on this froup?

Strangely, I’m hardly ever bored, despite the relative lack of a "life". – — A PC without Windows is like ice cream without ketchup. —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Please fetch my new key 804177F8 from hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net/ iD8DBQFDb3XpwyMv24BBd/gRAuABAKCbZp/JG9YSMPYarbq3QxgwA/bF3wCgpcrP rOoKbTPs1txp2AC1FBnvh4Y= =YZVj —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

meg wrote: > LisatheSequel wrote: >>meg wrote: >>>What are your plans for tomorrow? >>Read newsgroup.  Take shower.  Go to Holland, shop.  Clean the living >>room.  Make food in between at 3-4 hour intervals.  Eat said food. >>Eventually sleep. > I hate going to Holland on the weekends, it’s always so crowded.  I > usually just go to Bulgaria.

Your reply made me laugh because Holland on the weekends *IS* crowded.   German shops are closed on Sundays except for gas stations and restaurants and such. If we don’t get our shopping done on Saturday we have to drive into (technically) The Netherlands to stock up, and every other German person who didn’t get to do *their* shopping on Saturday is there too.   The lines are unbelievable. Sadly, Bulgaria isn’t a possibility.  :)  Belgium and France would be, but in Belgium I always get sidetracked by the chocolate and cool leather furniture.  In France the food is great but the drive is a commitment. >>>Read any good books lately? >>Yes.

"Extra Virgin" and "Ripe for the Picking" by Annie Hawes, true story and sequel about an Englishwoman who goes to work in the Italian Riviera for a change of scenery and ends up staying forever.  The book is a hilarious running commentary on culture shock and of course I identify with this.  I’ve read them both about 10 times each in the past two years. I just looked on Amazon and she’s got a new one out in the series titled "Journey to the South". A couple nights ago I started Cryptonomicon and find it very hard to get interested in.  Neal Stephenson’s writing style is taking some getting used to, and the fact it’s about 900 pages is a bit intimidating. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Glad to hear it. >>>If you’re on a full bus, do you give up your seat for: >>A) An elderly or disabled person >>Yes. >>B) Women who look like your mom >>Heck no.  She’s in better shape than I am. > Yeah most people wouldn’t do this one I think. The  only reason I added > that one is because there’s this guy on my bus around my age who always > gives his seat up to a couple of middle aged ladies who come on after > he does.

This poor man never gets to sit down?  :-/  Seems like he’d wise up, jog a couple blocks down and get on *after* they do.  That way when he gets on they’re already seated. I had the sweetest thing happen to me the other day.  We finally sold our pup and I was determined to buy a cockatiel.  It was a lovely day so we walked to town instead of driving.  We ended up taking the bus back with the bird in a bag and this HUGE bird cage tied to the baby’s stroller with my husband carrying the baby.  We got on in the middle and he went up front to buy our tickets.  One of the elderly ladies who everyone is always giving up their seats for had a portable folding seat which she whisked out and unfolded for the baby to sit in.  So I didn’t have to balance the baby and cage, and he got to sit for the couple block ride.  I thought that was very sweet of her considering how crowded the bus was and how little space she had to maneuver. Right after the World Trade Center was hit I was riding the bus to my language class and this little old woman who looked like she was about 90 years old saw how upset I was and got up and gave me her special reserved seat in the front. Little acts of kindness from strangers like that always touch me right to the bone. >>G) >>Disheveled people with babies and small children. > What about generally disheveled people with no babies? I definitely fit > in this category.  In the mornings I’m falling all over the place and > bumping into people and dropping my bags (and on one memorable occasion > getting stuck in the back door of the bus)

*LOL*  :D *ahem* No.  After a quick visual inspection to determine they’re not mentally challenged and otherwise physically healthy, generally not. >>J) Busses are for peasants. >>YES.  Unfortunately I am a peasant. > Me too.  Want to start an uprising together?

Yes.  Let’s threaten the government by causing general unrest until they invent single rider busses with an extra-wide fluffy seat.  I am prepared to overturn as many park trash cans and throw down as many pieces of half-chewed gum on the sidewalk as I can until this becomes a reality.  Since you’re the more creative of us two, I’ll let you phone in our demands. >>>What do your favorite shoes look like? >>I don’t have any favorite shoes right now.  I intend to get some, >>though.  I do have a favorite purse.  Does that count?  Does it count >>even if I don’t own it yet? > Purse counts.  What does it look like?

I don’t own it yet but if I have my way I will soon.  It’s an Aigner burgundy leather hobo bag like I had when I wuz a chile.  Not an unrealistically expensive wish, but more extravagant than usual since I don’t even carry a purse and probably wouldn’t even after I bought it.  The plan is to get it out and pet it every now and then.  Or maybe hang it on a doorknob so I can admire it from afar.  Yeah, doorknob decoration sounds good.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -William P wrote: > "meg" <notstalka…@gmail.com> wrote in news:1131251221.457530.124050 > @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: >>What’s with the Saturday night silence?  Seriously, I can’t believe >>that you’re all out.  I’m sure not. >>What are you doing tonight? >>A) Playing computer games > I’ve been playing a ton and I mean a ton of Age of Empires 3.  13 year > olds are handing me my ass online with frequency and intensity. >>B) Watching TV/movies >>C) Reading >>D) Homework >>E) Internet crap >>F) Working out >>G) Coming in from an unsuccessful date >>H) Still on a successful date, posting from bed >>I)  Nothing >>J) (fill in the blank) >>What are your plans for tomorrow? > See a movie with my gf probably. >>Read any good books lately? > I finished Cryptonomicon after literally a couple years putting off > reading it.  It was okay but I wouldn’t call it a page turner.

         I haven’t even turned the first page after buying it from a second hand store… must be well over a year and a half ago. I’m also procrastinating reading a book about procrastination that I ordered a little more than a year ago (but that one I did start –barely). [snip] August Pamplona — Do not weep for her.  She’s in the sky now, drinking with Jesus. – Antares on a.s.s. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -meg wrote: > What’s with the Saturday night silence?  Seriously, I can’t believe > that you’re all out.  I’m sure not. > What are you doing tonight? > A) Playing computer games > B) Watching TV/movies > C) Reading > D) Homework > E) Internet crap > F) Working out > G) Coming in from an unsuccessful date > H) Still on a successful date, posting from bed > I)  Nothing > J) (fill in the blank)

I watched four back-to-back episodes of La Femme Nikita that I had ordered on the internet. > What are your plans for tomorrow?

Today, I played chess online.  I also read a book, went shopping, and wasted lots of time surfing the web. > Read any good books lately?

"The Secret Life of Bees," and "The Concise Book of Lying." > If you’re on a full bus, do you give up your seat for: > A) An elderly or disabled person > B) Women who look like your mom > C) Someone of either gender carrying heavy stuff > D) All females > E) All males > F) Attractive MOTAS > G) (fill in the blank) > H) No one. > I) No one, and I put my bag on the seat next to me so no one can sit > there either. > J) Busses are for peasants. > K) I don’t leave home.  If you leave home you must not be shy.

The only person I’d give up my seat for would be a seriously crippled/elderly person.  Otherwise, it would just fall into that category of things I *just don’t do* – like hitting on women in the street, chatting up strangers, etc.  Basically anything that involves thrusting myself into a stranger’s life. It would never even occur to me to give up my seat to an attractive MOTOS.  Or rather, it might *occur* to me, but then I’d immediately laugh at myself for backsliding into Nice Guyhood.  I sometimes remember with amusement the days when I actually believed that such ingratiating behavior would get you anywhere with people, let alone women. > Sorry, I’m just curious about that one. I spend a lot of time on the > bus right now and it’s interesting to see who does what. > What do your favorite shoes look like?

Shoes are irrelevant. > Who is the most absurdly bored person on this froup?

I’m pretty bored.  Not sure about my ranking in the group.

Response:

Pikabu wrote: > meg wrote: > > What’s with the Saturday night silence?  Seriously, I can’t believe > > that you’re all out.  I’m sure not. > > What are you doing tonight? > Im picking crabs out of my pussy.

Question:

Eleonore, I wouldn’t judge you.  People judge me all the time before they get to know me.

Response:

Yep, quite similar, if in the forst dream nothing nor no one was so directly showing "they done it". In the secnd, it sure was a no other way than he done t…Until I got to the kitchen, where that room was fine when I opened the door to my guest, where we went to talk there over coffee before I excused myself to go to the washroom wash my hands, just as my b-i-l rang the door. I then left them both after intros where they left the kitchen with me to go to the living eoom, while I went to the washroom. In the dream, the guest had not left the kitchen nor my sight. Then as I found the mess in the wasroom, he had not elft my b-i-l’s sight either save to come knocking at the washroom door to ask for…vegetables. Therem acting so off both in his way of talking to my b-i-l like one tryign to present it as if we were an item since long, the other just seeming to take it we were living together or whatever, where the guest’s request for "we need (veggies) here "now"" was another effort of his to try and show like we would be an old couple…But just so…off the wall, it made no sense. In the dream, as much as I now can see that the guest had not legft my sight, -in the dream I was convinced once in the washroom only he could have done the mess, since I had not and we were the only two in the house. And in the dream, it was still as if I figured he had done the mess in the kitchen too while  was tidying up in the washroom, and while yet he was with my b-i-l who had dropped in unecxpectedly too, but as sometimes happen in real life, which in itself was not "off the wall" if you see what I mean. The more I look at it, the more the feelign is that my subconscious is telling me that someone’s getting in my house without my knowledge. In both dreams, things done in the house that were not done either by the occupants (me, kiddo, etc) nor yet by the visitor and that yet only occured in both dreams when that same visitor in both dreams dropped in. Again, that one never visited me (penpal) and lives in another country and continent. There is something symbolic to his being the visitor and witness to those things in the dreams, but can not get what it could be. Since no one could get oin the old house where I had the forst dream given the dogs (someoen HAD try to break in on the day I was moving there, wherer I was gone to get the last load with the car, plants and mirrors sort of last trip, where I had just moved the pets the trip before, and where not sure yet this was their home they somehow had apparently not barked nor scare the thief away untl he actually borke in the house, where they ran fter him downtown and where Eat-Eat came back carrying not oly the bottom of his pants, but of his underwear in the same mouthful, which was rather hilarious:). The two dogs then , while they had not even been let out to pee or sniff about their new yard, came back and st sat each at gthe very corner of the front yard, gardng it with their life. They woudl not let anyone near the sidewalk even, where neigbors called the cops that almost shot Eat Eat and Lad, and actually drew their revolver out, when a neighbor went "Wait!! A girl is moving in here today! Maybe the dogs are hers!" they then used mace instead and backed them to the back door where they sa the dog chains there, but said that they would give me a fine for having let my dogs out untikled. The morons then closed the door, while it could not stay closed due to the broken handle and lock by the thief, but they noticed nothing. When I arrived with the last car load, 30 mins later, I was told by the neighbor who stopped them from shooting Eat Eat of what had happened and that I woudl be fined, that the cops woudl be back to ahnd me a 350 bucks fine. I then got to the house and saw the dammage to the back door and was completely pissed at the cops to have not figured it out and almost kill the dogs and wanted to fine *me*!! I called them and they canme over for report and ndeed saw the door state and sawthere was breaking and entering, and added there wodl be no fine but that if anyone comlained that a dog bi them *while they were robbing my house*, Id be charge for wounding them iwith dogs! (sic). I hoped he thief was not stupid enough, as of course that would have been his admittign he robbed my place  and gong to jail (in fact I never found a thing missing and thin the dogs waited, unsure of this was their lace yet or what, untl they saw the guy, whic did not inspire them trust, to attack:)) In any case, that had happened on day one of my move in that new h=place , the previous house I lived in on Pilon St. The first dream was a year or two later. Been living here some seven years or so already. And now this other similar dream… You might remember the episode of that guy who stalked me, seing me in a store and followed me to my pace without my noticing, way way back, where he one day ended up at my place, walked in as if it was his place, with me facing a stranger, obviously not balanced, in my house, where he wanted me to sing for him, and demanded a picture of me, where tryign to deal to save my life and not be raped or anythign liek that I handed him the darn pic he was fixating on, over my puter, if I so so so much hated to give him one:(:(.  He then wanted me to be lead singer in his band, re,e,ber that? And to go make shows with him on weekends? Just a nut case. Seemed otherwise balance, just obsessed all righ, and nit in the obsessive department, where I was nonetheless scared to death. That happened AFTER the first dream. But for all I know he already was stalking me/following me/spying on me. The gdogs are now much older, and if someoen broke in and they heard and sa him they still woudl try and attack, but Eat Eat has arthritis real bad, loses balance at nothing, collapses, and Lad if he coudl be as vicious as ever in such a case, only has a few shaky rotting teeth… And he is a size hat coudl easily be kicked out of the way. Still, people dunno that and they do growl and bark madly still if someone tries to get in or knocks at the patio door for instance. My thoughts then are rather that someoen might be spying on me through windows or following me in other ways, maybe…Does not have to be "in the house" though the dream shows someoen doing things in my house I am not aware of. But that does not explain why that enpal in the dream. There is a key there in the symbolic that I can not get. Does not mean anythign to do with that penpal at all, btw, bt might just be the brain putting an image of someoen I know without having vever *seen*. Someone does things somewhere without my seing them is the most I can figure it means thus far. It is either about me, to my things, about my personality (had a few impersonators so to speak, people tryign to do personalty transfer then trying to bash my own to destroy the original they copied, sort of thing-in my life or online life, say). Might be someone online acting with what is mine as if it was theirs, sort of thing. But not sure what to make of the dreams at this time. After I woke up from this recent second dream, two night ago now, I went back to sleep and had another weird dream of some related type for the nonsense of it, which I can not remember, cause my thinking as the third dream went on that this was now like the sercond dream woke me up before any event could take place for the dream to have a story to remember. All I remember was talking with someoen where the conversation was flowing and yet a feelign something was completely off again, weird, abnormal for how it was, i.e. again say the type whre someoen not knowing you talks with you not only as if an old friend, but as if he woudl act like he knew you from lng when you just see them for the forst time…See he similarity there again. Bu I can not remember a thing about who save a vague impressin it is another pnpal I never saw, not the same as the first two dreams, this oen represewnted by the image o a man with bron hair, curled, and shorter than me. Th forst was represented by a blondish man, tall, solid built if not muscular type (large boned, broad shoulder, but a bit fat). The image of the third dream, he penal in it is a mental pic I had in the far past of some penpal. If onl I cna remember which. But ther again, I think the faces put on the interlocutor or visitor is just a dream "m.o" to try ad represent some other thing. What is common to all three dreams is soemthign that seems friendly/a friend being completely off or weird or bizarre or events around him/t being comletely weird or "off". IN short, I tend to see the dream as somethign my subconscious grasped that I have not or not fully where it tells me to be on my gard… "Things are not what they seem" goes the message, sort of thing. Or "soemthign s gong on that concerns you greatly and that you are not aware of/did not see/is done in your absence". Time will tell I guess. Nine years apart for the forst two dreams is a loooong time!!  "OB" (nevilemo…@yahoo.com) writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The first dream you describe here is oddly similar to something that > happened to me in real life. I may have mentioned it here sometime, > can’t remember. > I was in S_, on one of my visits. I had booked into a cheap guesthouse > on the Plaza Mayor. My room was pretty basic, but adequate. The toilet > was shared with the rest of that floor. I went to bed pretty early and > pretty sober. > Next morning I woke up, gathered up my toiletries and stumbled out to > the washroom, passing on the way some small, shifty-looking guy in the > corridor who seemed to be hanging around aimlessly. I was dying for a > pee. I opened the washroom door cautiously and looked in. The walls > were smeared with shit. There was shit on the floor. I can’t remember > if there was shit anywhere else, but it was pretty nauseating. > I wondered for a moment if I should just march out in disgust, but I > seemed to remember

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Response:

Had an odd dream. What is odd about it is that I dreamt soemthign on the same theme nine years ago. In the forst dream,. almost a decade ago, a friend dropped in to visit. I opened the door and was surprised t see him there, if happy to see him. He walked in, and after a few minutes I excused myself t go to the washroom wehre in the dream, taking the corridor of that house  used to live in to go to the washroom, I saw that the dogs had apparently lived there for years witout ever goig outdoors: that is, in the dream, teh corridor was completely plastered with dog poop of 2-3 inch think where you coudl not see the floor. I wodnered in the dream hwo that codl ever be possible, and howcome this happened suddenly, and just when I ahd a visitor…. In the meantime, in the dream, my son had walked in from uni, and wondering who that stranger was in the kitchen, I came out of the corridor after washign my hand from the irty mess I was tryign to clean. I remember introdcing them both, and in the dream, *I* had also to shake hands wit my visitor and was hesitant given that I knew what a mess I was cleaning up. I then explained to my son what had happened, and had he noticed anythign odd in the corridor before he left? The guest then had opened the door to the corridor and I could see on his face this jdgement and this not believing a word I was sayign about "I dunnow ehre it comes from, was not there an hour ago! Course it has to appear when a visitor drops in…". I ten ahd left again to clean the mess and my dream ended, just that suddenly. This time, afer I have not dreamt of that friend save that one time nine years ago, I dream again. I live in another house, rather a flat. It is as if t was here at the begining of the dream,. then some other hosue for a simple reason. In this dream I had last night, he walks in,again a surprise, unanounced. I am again glad to see him if nt expectgn im and not feelign well and not at the ebst time to ahve anyone voer and make ther visit as pleasant as I wished. But Iin good faith I vrush the od timng off and we chit chat a few minutes. A few minutes pass and it is nearing supper time so I excuse myself to go wash my hands in the washroom. Then someone else arrived, like in the forstd ream. But in ths one, it was my brother in law L. I think that is great tming, as while they both talk in the living, Ic an just get supper ready. So after iopengn to my b-i-l, I go wash my hands to prepare supper…But a I walk in the washroom, I see someoen walked in there and seems to have taken my clothes, and various things like runnign shoes, or whatever thing one could find of mine and just threw them all over the floor. In the dream, the place suddenly was not my house, cause my house has a small washroom too small for the emss there was n the dream, sort of thing, A huge room of maybe 15 x 15 for a washroom, where clothes are everywhere, some wet in the tub, some throw after havign been dipped in the tup on the floor, and some actually even in the toilet bowl. I looked in teh toilet bowl and there were two running shoes and two par of jeans half shoved in the toilet… I wodnered hwo to clean that mess, but worse, knew that it could only be my visitor that ahd done that. It just made me think he had to not be too baanced to ahve done such a thing…As I try and remove the jeans that are half in the toilet, they show full of dirt and mud, where those jeans yet were clean before sopmeoen got them muddy and then throan n the toilet!I need to pee in the dream, so I pull the jeans out and the runnign soes out, wash my ahnds and go pee…I then listen to my visitor-friend talking wit my b-ui-l. He sounds the pertfect gentleman. Perfect conversationalist. Semthgn is slightly off in that eh talks as if he is the one hostign the b-i-l while he is the visitor and not family, sort of thing….I just hope they can keep chit chatting long enough for me to clean the emss in the washroom,and I yet clench my teeth knowing it has t be my visitor that did this mess where he certainly can guess what a mess I found in the washrooma nd that I will be busy a while fr sure tryign to clean it up. Of course Ic an not hand wash the jeans and blankets and all the clothes and shoes that were thrown in water then on the floor…Ipck it all up, just rinse it "fr now" in teh tub, ring it all by hand, then put it in a pile in the tub, thinkng of gettign plastic bags later to put them in nd get them to the laundry room… Jst as I am tryg to fast sort out this mess, I ghear my cvsitor talkign with my broher in law and declarng, on the tone of one sayong "Now watch this!", where yet he says "I so love her…hehehe.Check this out" and here he knocks on the washroom door. On one hand I sense he does it to try and put me on the spot with the emss in there and wish I coudl just pretnd nothgn ever happened then. On the oter, I know he has to know, he done it, and I am annoyed all right. But then I think that it makes no sense he woudl ahve dne that, whatever else coudl ahve done it all??? After sayign "watch this" he knocks on the washroom door, and says through the door: -Oh hney, we need *a green pepper, green onion and a tomatoe here!!" I figure he is just tryign to press my button, and after being lost as to what odd behavior he had, I just said "Be there in a sec! One green pepper, green onon and a tomatoe. Okay. Gmme a minute, I’ll bring that to you". And he goes back talkign to my b-i-l as if he was my long time hbby or soemthing….Talking things like :she always des this" or like one inventing habits he would know em to ave where in fact he does not know me at all! (Penfriend, not real life friend).  then manahe to put all the clothes in green bags, and put them in a huge hamper in the drem where it does not show. I prefer to make it loo lik HE dreamt and it never happened, cause I know he wants a reaction and I don’t wanna give him that pleasure. Too silly it all is. So I head for the kitchen thnking of th face he will make to see me actually bringing a green pepper and green onions and a tomatoe to them in the living, as in "thought I was busy clewaning some mess that never was done, friend???", hah. But as I walk in the kitchen, another large room in the deam, large kitchen of maybe 20×20, …it is the same! Clothes and objects everywhere, spread on the floor and all over the table the chairs, the pantries and cupboads, as if someoen did a lot of work to cover all surfaces with all sort of clthes and objects like whatever one has on their dresser (mirror, brush, that sort of objects). I stand there, stunned at hwo this could have been done while my b-i-l is there…And I hear my visitor still talk like he was Mr Converdsationalist, perfect conversationalist, where my b-i-l racts like oen convnced he and I must be an item since long for him to seem to know supposed habits of mine that even he, my b-i-l of couse coudl not know of me sine the are invented on the spot by the visitor who seems to for some reason I do not get try and make things look other than they are, both in conversation and actions…. Then in my dream, I think "Woah…Wait a minute. This is sommuch like my dream of years ago, is it not? With the dog pooh in he corridor and kisddo walking in where it ends up I never talk with this guy: he always talks to anyoen else that happesn to walk in and I am always sent to take care of soem mess… I then woke up to that thought, and remembered the other dream and thought that indeed, they were quite the same. save that this time my dream last along to rteveal something: it was him who planted the mess on me in the first dreasm too, betcha! L:) Th tow dreams have this in common: his not knowign me at al and actign as if he did, in the first not believing my wors that the emss was not there a second before, whle he never had any reason on earth to justify doubting my word, say. His judgemental g;lance my way which he addressed to my son in the first dream was like in the second when he tries to share about hwo I supposedly always woudl be, while he just arived for a visit, and never had visited before, i my secnd dream either. Soem reality is made ter with a third party…. About me??? or does thatmena he is in poop over his head? I dunno… Once over 15 years ago and when I did not know this penpal yet, I ahd similar dreams where soemoen was tryign to make me believe that a cat was a dog, sort of thing, constantly trygn to pretend everyoen else knew so therefore I was not seign well….That series of dream was 29 nights ina row where after I started wirtign them down, I started seing a paetterna dn then told my then bfriend he ahd been cheating on me sicne 29 days….Stunned a how exact the nuber of days were, the then bfriend thought I already knew so he opted to react asking me "How the hell did you elarn that? You wre there at the store, where you not??". I had not one clue what store thing he wa talking about, but turns out he had met someone in a store went the story. Told him that nope, I just dreamt 29days ina row that he tried to amke me believe a cat was a dog, a dog was a cat, that everyoen in Canada had a ca they drove on the same side as in the UK, hat ice fishing was through a wood log floating on a lake in summer, that everyoen coudl and did have their drivers license at age 6, etc, etc. All this inventing stuff an pretending *realty other than it looked* then had given me the answer of what those 29 dreams were about. But this time the two similar dreams are nine eyars or so apart….I THINK it was in 96 when I had the first….about the dog poop in the corridor and that penfriend dropping in unanounced which was really weird in the dream… It is as if the dream was saying that someone knew of my place ""better than me"". I wodner thenif soemoen is spying on me or what, as in using power lenses or what….. OR that soemoen is tryign to make me think balck is white or vice … read more »

Response:

The first dream you describe here is oddly similar to something that happened to me in real life. I may have mentioned it here sometime, can’t remember. I was in S_, on one of my visits. I had booked into a cheap guesthouse on the Plaza Mayor. My room was pretty basic, but adequate. The toilet was shared with the rest of that floor. I went to bed pretty early and pretty sober. Next morning I woke up, gathered up my toiletries and stumbled out to the washroom, passing on the way some small, shifty-looking guy in the corridor who seemed to be hanging around aimlessly. I was dying for a pee. I opened the washroom door cautiously and looked in. The walls were smeared with shit. There was shit on the floor. I can’t remember if there was shit anywhere else, but it was pretty nauseating. I wondered for a moment if I should just march out in disgust, but I seemed to remember there was no other washroom, at least not on that floor, and I was desperate for a pee, so I just locked the door gingerly, pulled down my flies and let rip. I can’t remember if I did anything else in there. Maybe I even dared to try and wash my hands, I dunno. Forget. Anyway, I felt a bit icky in there, but perhaps not as sick as some others would. I kept telling myself "hey, this is real life. I am not going to act like some cissy. Real life is full of shit – deal with it." Not in those exact words, it was more a kind of habitual unspoken stance. "What right have I to complain or make a fuss? This is how some folks live." That sort of thing. A bit like when you’re invited to someone’s house and they serve you some food you don’t like. "It’s rude to say no". When I opened the door and exited, that strange guy was hanging around right outside, watching me. As I got back inside my room, I heard him talking, in a kind of squeal, to the guesthouse owner, an old man. I couldn’t make out much of what he said, but it sounded to me as if he was accusing me of having left shit all over the place. This pissed me off (I immediately assumed Mr Shifty must have been the true shit-smearer), but I figured the best thing was just to say nothing unless asked. I hate fuss. When I got to paying, it was impossible to tell from the landlord’s manner whether he had believed the story or not. By then, I didn’t care too much one way or t’other. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > Had an odd dream. What is odd about it is that I dreamt soemthign on the > same theme nine years ago. > In the forst dream,. almost a decade ago, a friend dropped in to visit. > I opened the door and was surprised t see him there, if happy to see him. > He walked in, and after a few minutes I excused myself t go to the > washroom wehre in the dream, taking the corridor of that house  used to > live in to go to the washroom, I saw that the dogs had apparently lived > there for years witout ever goig outdoors: that is, in the dream, teh > corridor was completely plastered with dog poop of 2-3 inch think where > you coudl not see the floor. I wodnered in the dream hwo that codl ever be > possible, and howcome this happened suddenly, and just when I ahd a > visitor…. > In the meantime, in the dream, my son had walked in from uni, and > wondering who that stranger was in the kitchen, I came out of the corridor > after washign my hand from the irty mess I was tryign to clean. > I remember introdcing them both, and in the dream, *I* had also to shake > hands wit my visitor and was hesitant given that I knew what a mess I was > cleaning up. I then explained to my son what had happened, and had he > noticed anythign odd in the corridor before he left? > The guest then had opened the door to the corridor and I could see on his > face this jdgement and this not believing a word I was sayign about "I > dunnow ehre it comes from, was not there an hour ago! Course it has to > appear when a visitor drops in…". I ten ahd left again to clean the mess > and my dream ended, just that suddenly. > This time, afer I have not dreamt of that friend save that one time nine > years ago, I dream again. I live in another house, rather a flat. It is as > if t was here at the begining of the dream,. then some other hosue for a > simple reason. > In this dream I had last night, he walks in,again a surprise, unanounced. > I am again glad to see him if nt expectgn im and not feelign well and not > at the ebst time to ahve anyone voer and make ther visit as pleasant as I > wished. But Iin good faith I vrush the od timng off and we chit chat a few > minutes. > A few minutes pass and it is nearing supper time so I excuse myself to go > wash my hands in the washroom. > Then someone else arrived, like in the forstd ream. But in ths one, it was > my brother in law L. I think that is great tming, as while they both talk > in the living, Ic an just get supper ready. > So after iopengn to my b-i-l, I go wash my hands to prepare supper…But a > I walk in the washroom, I see someoen walked in there and seems to have > taken my clothes, and various things like runnign shoes, or whatever thing > one could find of mine and just threw them all over the floor. In the > dream, the place suddenly was not my house, cause my house has a small > washroom too small for the emss there was n the dream, sort of thing, A > huge room of maybe 15 x 15 for a washroom, where clothes are everywhere, > some wet in the tub, some throw after havign been dipped in the tup on the > floor, and some actually even in the toilet bowl. I looked in teh toilet > bowl and there were two running shoes and two par of jeans half shoved in > the toilet… > I wodnered hwo to clean that mess, but worse, knew that it could only be > my visitor that ahd done that. It just made me think he had to not be too > baanced to ahve done such a thing…As I try and remove the jeans that are > half in the toilet, they show full of dirt and mud, where those jeans yet > were clean before sopmeoen got them muddy and then throan n the toilet!I > need to pee in the dream, so I pull the jeans out and the runnign soes > out, wash my ahnds and go pee…I then listen to my visitor-friend talking > wit my b-ui-l. He sounds the pertfect gentleman. Perfect conversationalist. > Semthgn is slightly off in that eh talks as if he is the one hostign the > b-i-l while he is the visitor and not family, sort of thing….I just hope > they can keep chit chatting long enough for me to clean the emss in the > washroom,and I yet clench my teeth knowing it has t be my visitor that did > this mess where he certainly can guess what a mess I found in the > washrooma nd that I will be busy a while fr sure tryign to clean it up. Of > course Ic an not hand wash the jeans and blankets and all the clothes and > shoes that were thrown in water then on the floor…Ipck it all up, just > rinse it "fr now" in teh tub, ring it all by hand, then put it in a pile > in the tub, thinkng of gettign plastic bags later to put them in nd get > them to the laundry room… > Jst as I am tryg to fast sort out this mess, I ghear my cvsitor talkign > with my broher in law and declarng, on the tone of one sayong "Now watch > this!", where yet he says "I so love her…hehehe.Check this out" and here > he knocks on the washroom door. On one hand I sense he does it to try and > put me on the spot with the emss in there and wish I coudl just pretnd > nothgn ever happened then. On the oter, I know he has to know, he done it, > and I am annoyed all right. But then I think that it makes no sense he > woudl ahve dne that, whatever else coudl ahve done it all??? > After sayign "watch this" he knocks on the washroom door, and says through > the door: > -Oh hney, we need *a green pepper, green onion and a tomatoe here!!" > I figure he is just tryign to press my button, and after being lost as to > what odd behavior he had, I just said "Be there in a sec! One green > pepper, green onon and a tomatoe. Okay. Gmme a minute, I’ll bring that to > you". > And he goes back talkign to my b-i-l as if he was my long time hbby or > soemthing….Talking things like :she always des this" or like one > inventing habits he would know em to ave where in fact he does not know me > at all! (Penfriend, not real life friend). >  then manahe to put all the clothes in green bags, and put them in a huge > hamper in the drem where it does not show. I prefer to make it loo lik HE > dreamt and it never happened, cause I know he wants a reaction and I don’t > wanna give him that pleasure. Too silly it all is. > So I head for the kitchen thnking of th face he will make to see me > actually bringing a green pepper and green onions and a tomatoe to them in > the living, as in "thought I was busy clewaning some mess that never was > done, friend???", hah. But as I walk in the kitchen, another large room in > the deam, large kitchen of maybe 20×20, …it is the same! Clothes and > objects everywhere, spread on the floor and all over the table the chairs, > the pantries and cupboads, as if someoen did a lot of work to cover all > surfaces with all sort of clthes and objects like whatever one has on > their dresser (mirror, brush, that sort of objects). > I stand there, stunned at hwo this could have been done while my b-i-l is > there…And I hear my visitor still talk like he was Mr > Converdsationalist, perfect conversationalist, where my b-i-l racts like > oen convnced he and I must be an item since long for him to seem to know > supposed habits of mine that even he, my b-i-l of couse coudl not know of > me sine the are invented on the spot by the visitor who seems to for some > reason I do not get try and make things look other than they are, both in > conversation and actions…. > Then in my dream, I think "Woah…Wait a minute. This is sommuch like my > dream of years ago, is it not? With the dog pooh in he corridor and kisddo > walking in where it ends up I never talk with this guy: he always talks to > anyoen else that happesn to walk in and I am

… read more »

Response:

Question:

jizzlob…@intergate.com wrote in news:1120269206.229228.40390@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com: >> I changed my strategy. Any female must prove herself and not the >> opposite. > Good for you. Look at the (few) chapters of my "I Got Laid" series and > you would see how I put little effort into it. But then I don’t get > laid as much as I want to.

"Let me take a look at your resume, Miss Jones…hmmmmm…well I do believe you are qualified to suck my cock.  Perhaps…*over* qualified?  NOW SELL IT, BITCH! DO YOU WANT THE POSITION OR NOT?" — "Are you going to torture him?" "What would you do?" "I’d torture him." –Dog Soldiers.

Response:

>Good for you. Look at the (few) chapters of my "I Got Laid" series and

you would see how I put little effort into it. >But then I don’t get laid as much as I want to.   Then maybe that technique isn’t working? If you guys would lower your standards to rock bottom levels it wouldn’t take much effort at all. The skanky girls are pretty direct about their attraction to a guy.

Response:

JimSummers wrote: > Yesterday I was really clicking with this lady and said all of the right > things but hours later after I went home I started feeling nervous because > it had gone well! Maybe I’m afraid of what Baba mentioned last year about > how every social step just leads you further and further toward more > vulnerability and pressure put on you to perform and to be "normal"

Abso-fucking-lutely.  The women I’ve mentioned before on this newsgroup (like coffee girl), whenever things seemed to be going "well" with them, it just stressed me out more.  I’ve fallen so deep into a rut that any sign of success is threatening.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > That’s the very definition of anxiety! If we could channel our minds > > into productive areas we’d be marathon running PhD musicians and > > linguist millionaires! > > KC > lol good point.  Focus is everything.  What happens with a person > depends on who or what they focus on.  What’s bad is when the mind > focuses into a repetitive cycle that seems inescapable.  It’s like a > vinyl record skipping.  Unless you pick up the needle or jolt the > machine it will keep skipping until the power is shut off.  One of the > ways to "unskip" a mind is to focus on something other than what you > find yourself getting trapped by.  Hobbies are excellent forms of what > are sometimes called moving meditation.  A hobby is a place where you > can lose yourself.  Not sure about using hobbies too much, but they are > an excellent way to get the music playing again.  My hobby is > gardening. > rgds, > lisa

That’s an excellent anaology Lisa, but a bit different from what I experienced. My experience would be more like 5000 volts of electricity running through the record player instead of the standard 120. KC

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -KC Carter wrote: > > > That’s the very definition of anxiety! If we could channel our minds > > > into productive areas we’d be marathon running PhD musicians and > > > linguist millionaires! > > > KC > > lol good point.  Focus is everything.  What happens with a person > > depends on who or what they focus on.  What’s bad is when the mind > > focuses into a repetitive cycle that seems inescapable.  It’s like a > > vinyl record skipping.  Unless you pick up the needle or jolt the > > machine it will keep skipping until the power is shut off.  One of the > > ways to "unskip" a mind is to focus on something other than what you > > find yourself getting trapped by.  Hobbies are excellent forms of what > > are sometimes called moving meditation.  A hobby is a place where you > > can lose yourself.  Not sure about using hobbies too much, but they are > > an excellent way to get the music playing again.  My hobby is > > gardening. > > rgds, > > lisa > That’s an excellent anaology Lisa, but a bit different from what I > experienced. My experience would be more like 5000 volts of electricity > running through the record player instead of the standard 120. > KC

What happened? rgds, lisa

Response:

JimSummers wrote: >  Yesterday I was really clicking with this lady and said all of the right > things but hours later after I went home I started feeling nervous because > it had gone well! Maybe I’m afraid of what Baba mentioned last year about > how every social step just leads you further and further toward more > vulnerability and pressure put on you to perform and to be "normal" >  Does anyone else feel this way?

I don’t know if my experience is meaningful to you at all, but yes, I do have anxiety after a positive interaction with someone new, and have a tendency to pick it apart trying to figure out if I screwed up and if they really like me. I fortunately don’t have to deal with that with strangers on a romantic front anymore, although I still sometimes worry about my interactions with my husband. — -=Lola —————- You’re living in your own private Idaho Living in your own private Idaho Underground like a wild potato. –B52s.

Response:

JimSummers wrote: >  Yesterday I was really clicking with this lady and said all of the right > things but hours later after I went home I started feeling nervous because > it had gone well! Maybe I’m afraid of what Baba mentioned last year about > how every social step just leads you further and further toward more > vulnerability and pressure put on you to perform and to be "normal" >  Does anyone else feel this way?

Yes. that is what scares me the most about female interaction. I can put a ‘normal’ front for most people I have to interact with during the day, but any potential girlfriend will have to be shown my messed up true self. That’s when they will turn and run.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -KC Carter wrote: > lisa wrote: > > JimSummers wrote: > > > Yesterday I was really clicking with this lady and said all of the right > > > things but hours later after I went home I started feeling nervous because > > > it had gone well! Maybe I’m afraid of what Baba mentioned last year about > > > how every social step just leads you further and further toward more > > > vulnerability and pressure put on you to perform and to be "normal" > > >  Does anyone else feel this way? > > Yes.  Analytical types will analyze the back of a cereal box if they > > have enough time. > > Based on my own experiences, a few things immediately spring to mind: > > Fear of success relates to what you’re saying.  Also, if you are being > > forced into a "normal" mode when you know that standard is not your > > standard, you’re going against your nature.  Remember that normal is > > standard and standard is average, which is what numerically more people > > are.  What’s so great about average anyway?  Also, you’ve probably been > > persecuted in some way by the "normal" people, so doing the normal > > thing probably triggers all kinds of insecurities. > > Back to analytical patterns…  even though it’s your nature to > > analyze, it doesn’t mean that the mind should be allowed undisputed > > reign over you 24/7! > That’s the very definition of anxiety! If we could channel our minds > into productive areas we’d be marathon running PhD musicians and > linguist millionaires! > KC

lol good point.  Focus is everything.  What happens with a person depends on who or what they focus on.  What’s bad is when the mind focuses into a repetitive cycle that seems inescapable.  It’s like a vinyl record skipping.  Unless you pick up the needle or jolt the machine it will keep skipping until the power is shut off.  One of the ways to "unskip" a mind is to focus on something other than what you find yourself getting trapped by.  Hobbies are excellent forms of what are sometimes called moving meditation.  A hobby is a place where you can lose yourself.  Not sure about using hobbies too much, but they are an excellent way to get the music playing again.  My hobby is gardening. rgds, lisa

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -lisa wrote: > JimSummers wrote: > > Yesterday I was really clicking with this lady and said all of the right > > things but hours later after I went home I started feeling nervous because > > it had gone well! Maybe I’m afraid of what Baba mentioned last year about > > how every social step just leads you further and further toward more > > vulnerability and pressure put on you to perform and to be "normal" > >  Does anyone else feel this way? > Yes.  Analytical types will analyze the back of a cereal box if they > have enough time. > Based on my own experiences, a few things immediately spring to mind: > Fear of success relates to what you’re saying.  Also, if you are being > forced into a "normal" mode when you know that standard is not your > standard, you’re going against your nature.  Remember that normal is > standard and standard is average, which is what numerically more people > are.  What’s so great about average anyway?  Also, you’ve probably been > persecuted in some way by the "normal" people, so doing the normal > thing probably triggers all kinds of insecurities. > Back to analytical patterns…  even though it’s your nature to > analyze, it doesn’t mean that the mind should be allowed undisputed > reign over you 24/7!

That’s the very definition of anxiety! If we could channel our minds into productive areas we’d be marathon running PhD musicians and linguist millionaires! KC

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Troll wrote: > jizzlob…@intergate.com wrote in > news:1120266842.611385.174420@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > > Troll wrote: > >> I have stopped caring to interact with females. I treat them like > >> shit or little boys if they behave and that’s all. I have been doing > >> this for the past few weeks and it has helped me immensely. No more > >> trouble. After all, if a female really wants to be with you she will > >> have no shame to show it clearly instead of implying it. No more self > >> torturing about whether she likes you or not. > >> As a matter of fact, you finally learn to live alone and find it > >> doesn’t deserve the trouble chasing pussy and dates. No unnecessary > >> expenses, no mind games and manipulation, no anxiety trying to make > >> some bitch like you, no rejection and no frustration. If you really > >> need pussy, pay for some escort, or even better get a good sex toy. > > This would be believable if it wasn’t coming from someone who is > > seemingly obsessed with female behavior. > I changed my strategy. Any female must prove herself and not the opposite.

Good for you. Look at the (few) chapters of my "I Got Laid" series and you would see how I put little effort into it. But then I don’t get laid as much as I want to.

Response:

JimSummers wrote: > Yesterday I was really clicking with this lady and said all of the right > things but hours later after I went home I started feeling nervous because > it had gone well! Maybe I’m afraid of what Baba mentioned last year about > how every social step just leads you further and further toward more > vulnerability and pressure put on you to perform and to be "normal" >  Does anyone else feel this way?

Yes.  Analytical types will analyze the back of a cereal box if they have enough time. Based on my own experiences, a few things immediately spring to mind: Fear of success relates to what you’re saying.  Also, if you are being forced into a "normal" mode when you know that standard is not your standard, you’re going against your nature.  Remember that normal is standard and standard is average, which is what numerically more people are.  What’s so great about average anyway?  Also, you’ve probably been persecuted in some way by the "normal" people, so doing the normal thing probably triggers all kinds of insecurities. Back to analytical patterns…  even though it’s your nature to analyze, it doesn’t mean that the mind should be allowed undisputed reign over you 24/7!  Try to just let things be with your lady friend and try not to allow yourself to get too attached to what happens next.  Once the pressure is off of you, you will probably appear more relaxed and that can’t hurt. rgds, lisa

Response:

Troll wrote: > I have stopped caring to interact with females. I treat them like shit or > little boys if they behave and that’s all. I have been doing this for the > past few weeks and it has helped me immensely. No more trouble. After all, > if a female really wants to be with you she will have no shame to show it > clearly instead of implying it. No more self torturing about whether she > likes you or not. > As a matter of fact, you finally learn to live alone and find it doesn’t > deserve the trouble chasing pussy and dates. No unnecessary expenses, no > mind games and manipulation, no anxiety trying to make some bitch like you, > no rejection and no frustration. If you really need pussy, pay for some > escort, or even better get a good sex toy.

This would be believable if it wasn’t coming from someone who is seemingly obsessed with female behavior.

Response:

 Yesterday I was really clicking with this lady and said all of the right things but hours later after I went home I started feeling nervous because it had gone well! Maybe I’m afraid of what Baba mentioned last year about how every social step just leads you further and further toward more vulnerability and pressure put on you to perform and to be "normal"  Does anyone else feel this way?

Response:

In news:8f10dfce77c61866c213769e6d0cf323@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com, JimSummers <jimsummer…@aol.com> wrote : > Yesterday I was really clicking with this lady and said all of the > right things but hours later after I went home I started feeling > nervous because it had gone well! Maybe I’m afraid of what Baba > mentioned last year about how every social step just leads you > further and further toward more vulnerability and pressure put on you > to perform and to be "normal" >  Does anyone else feel this way?

    well yeah.

Response:

Question:

…… I asked my Dr. about this, and he agrees – he says I may have the lowest PSA he’s ever encountered to test positive. Not the way I want to get in any record books. Sorry – by looking at the title of this strand – I thought you were talking about getting a new penile implant – excuse me  :-)

  I never heard a thread called a strand before…. but I get your drift. — Sinrod Stained Glass www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Response:

…… I asked my Dr. about this, and he agrees – he says I may have the lowest PSA he’s ever encountered to test positive. Not the way I want to get in any record books.

Sorry – by looking at the title of this strand – I thought you were talking about getting a new penile implant – excuse me  :-)

Response:

    Thanks to all who responded to my earlier post. Someone (AW) responded that my results looked somewhat "screwy" – here’s the corrected results: PSA 1.4 Gleason 3+3 1 of 10 cores positive, about 5% …… I asked my Dr. about this, and he agrees – he says I may have the lowest PSA he’s ever encountered to test positive. Not the way I want to get in any record books.     I picked up Walsh’s book this weekend – now I’ll have something to read during the CAT and bone scans Wednesday.     And thanks, everyone, for the support and the stories of your adventures. I hope that I’ll soon be able to post my own happy surgery and recovery stories. Tom

Response:

Now…. a question to others……. my PSA is 8.8…. Gleaseon 3 + 3 = 6, Grade T1c, one of 12 cores positive, less than 5% tissue involvement….. But…… my doc is not doing bone or CAT scans?  Again, why the difference? My doc even says he will not take out the nodes…….   All the different opinions among docs surely does make this confusing…..

I don’t often say this, but you ought to ask your doctor why before you ask us.  I suspect that he suspects that 8.8, 6, T1c, and 1/12th is an indication that you probably have nothing outside the prostate; ergo no other testing or biopsies are needed.  He’s probably right, but only statistically.

Response:

Tom, You will hear this advice many times and it is most critical to your recovery. Whatever treatment you decide is the best for you make sure that you find the absolute best qualified doctor that is available to you to perform the procedure. There is considerable debate on this board and in general about which treatment offers the best results but there is never any debate about the need for the best doctor to do it for you. If you have any doubt about your doctor keep looking. He should have lots and lots of experience in whatever treatment you choose. Best of luck to you, Nick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that

Response:

    I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that makes me the newest member to "The Club".

Welcome Tom.  It’s one hell of an initiation, isn’t it!     Here’s what info I DO have: 49 yrs. old – Philadelphia PA PSA 1.6 I believe the Dr. said 1 of 10 nodes(?) tested positive at something like 2% (but I wasn’t taking notes – guess I should have). Gleason? – No idea

It’s the worst thing you’ve ever encountered.  That said, your stats look a lot better than most of ours.  You’re very lucky.  It looks like you got it early.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that makes me the newest member to "The Club".     Well, PC is new to me, which means that I don’t know what I don’t know …… and don’t know what to ask my doctor. I’ve scanned though some of the past posts and found references to some reading material, some websites, and a ton of great discussion. I’ll be checking them out, and reading back in this NG as far as I can in the next few days.     I’ll be seeing my family Dr. this Friday (was diagnosed by my Urologist yesterday), and would appreciate any suggestions regarding what info I should ask about. I’m getting my CAT & Bone scans next week, so if all goes OK I guess I have about 10 days to learn about, and decide, on the various treatment methods.

    Tom I  was so upset and lost when I had my diagnosis. Although friendly and supportive, I found my family doc to be almost worthless, in terms of info and direction.  Maybe it’s because he is a very young man? I went to work like a demon reading and asking all I could to gather info.  I think that it was this NG that provided 90% of the most valuable info that I used to make my decison om course of treatment. I am 53, 8 weeks post RP and feeling great. The RP itself is the least of all the work you’ll have to do, to recover all function back to normal, so don’t sweat it.  If you don’t absolutely love, and respect your Urologist, my advice is to keep looking until you do.  Mine was so confident,  and well appointed, that it overflowed to me. Good luck!! — Sinrod Stained Glass www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Response:

Leonard….. Did the doc remove your lymph nodes?? Were your numbers that different from mine?

My diagnosis was T1C, PSA 4.5, Gleason 7 = 3+4, 4 of 6 cores positive on one side, none of 6 cores positive on the other. My surgeon removed the nodes first, waited while a pathologist examined them, and finding they were negative, he continued with the surgery. Had they proved positive, he would probably have aborted the procedure.   At least that is what he told me he would do, and I have no reason to doubt him. A friend was subsequently diagnosed with a Gleason 6 cancer.  His surgeon removed the nodes for examination but he didn’t wait for results from the pathologist.  The Partin tables suggest the likelihood of positive nodes is essentially zero in that case, and I guess he considered it so unlikely it would happen that there was no reason to wait for results during surgery.  In my case, the Partin tables say the likelihood was only about 2 percent, but I guess my doctor considered that high enough to merit waiting.   Since both these surgeons practice in the same area and use the same hospitals, I suspect they don’t differ substantially in matters like this.  I can see why some surgeons might decide not even to remove the nodes for a Gleason 6 cancer.  But the latest Partin tables only came out in 2001, and perhaps the standards are changing slowly.   Some doctors may be more conservative than others about departing from past practice no matter what the numbers say. Others may want to be on the leading edge and consider it important to avoid any unnecessary interventions. Did you have any node involvement?

No. Thanks for always taking the time to reply…. and help…. Mike

– Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208

Response:

Tom (&Leonard) I am presently home recuping form RP (removal).  Had my surgery on the 16th. I was a 5.1 PSA and Tsb w/ Gleason 7.  I am 53 years of age.  I chose RP because of my age, as indications are that I can live long enough for it to come back if it does, so figured, get it out of there. I am in fairly good shape, and was walking 2 miles (36 laps around the 2nd floor) by thte third morning, on the advise of my Doc. Still walking 2.5 miles every day and feeling like a champ.  Positive attitude.  I knew nothing about PC prior, there is a wealth of info on the internet.  Download a search engine and just start looking.  Good luck.  It sounds like you have caught it even earlier than I and you should come out like a champ.  Go for it. Guy Howe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that makes me the newest member to "The Club".     Well, PC is new to me, which means that I don’t know what I don’t know …… and don’t know what to ask my doctor. I’ve scanned though some of the past posts and found references to some reading material, some websites, and a ton of great discussion. I’ll be checking them out, and reading back in this NG as far as I can in the next few days. I suggest reading a book on the subject.  I like Walsh’s book "Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer", but there is another well like book by a urologist name Marks.  The advantage of doing that over using the internet is that you will get a consistent point of view.   Prostate cancer is a complex disease, and it is easy to get confused.  After you have got one point of view, including the commonly agreed upon basics, straight, you can look at other points of view and see them in context. Using the internet is more confusing because you will see a variety of conflicting statements, and it will be hard to tell which of them you should pay attention to.  You will also get a lot of advice of the form, "I did …., and it worked (didn’t work) for me".   Such information can put a human face on things, but prostate cancer is not the same in all men.  You need an overall perspective first.     I’ll be seeing my family Dr. this Friday (was diagnosed by my Urologist yesterday), and would appreciate any suggestions regarding what info I should ask about. I’m getting my CAT & Bone scans next week, so if all goes OK I guess I have about 10 days to learn about, and decide, on the various treatment methods. Your family doctor may or may not be specially knowledgeable about prostate cancer.  You need to talk to your urologist or perhaps some other prostate cancer specialist that your doctors can refer you to.  It is unlikely that you must decide in 10 days.  You can probably take a bit longer than that to be sure you understand everything and have made the right decision.  But once you make the decision, there is no point in dawdling further.     Here’s what info I DO have: 49 yrs. old – Philadelphia PA PSA 1.6 I believe the Dr. said 1 of 10 nodes(?) tested positive at something like 2% (but I wasn’t taking notes – guess I should have). Gleason? – No idea The Gleason would be very important in deciding upon treatment.  Also, given your relatively low PSA, it seems possible that you were referred to a urologist because your doctor felt something on digital rectal examination.   Just what he felt would also be important. One thing to keep in mind is that at your age, aggressive treatment of early prostate cancer by a skilled practitioner is unlikely to have serious side effects.  But you want to be sure you do have a very skilled practitioner, particularly if you choose surgery.     Thanks in advance for you advice and comments. Tom — Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208

Response:

    I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that makes me the newest member to "The Club".     Well, PC is new to me, which means that I don’t know what I don’t know …… and don’t know what to ask my doctor. I’ve scanned though some of the past posts and found references to some reading material, some websites, and a ton of great discussion. I’ll be checking them out, and reading back in this NG as far as I can in the next few days.

I suggest reading a book on the subject.  I like Walsh’s book "Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer", but there is another well like book by a urologist name Marks.  The advantage of doing that over using the internet is that you will get a consistent point of view.   Prostate cancer is a complex disease, and it is easy to get confused.  After you have got one point of view, including the commonly agreed upon basics, straight, you can look at other points of view and see them in context. Using the internet is more confusing because you will see a variety of conflicting statements, and it will be hard to tell which of them you should pay attention to.  You will also get a lot of advice of the form, "I did …., and it worked (didn’t work) for me".   Such information can put a human face on things, but prostate cancer is not the same in all men.  You need an overall perspective first.     I’ll be seeing my family Dr. this Friday (was diagnosed by my Urologist yesterday), and would appreciate any suggestions regarding what info I should ask about. I’m getting my CAT & Bone scans next week, so if all goes OK I guess I have about 10 days to learn about, and decide, on the various treatment methods.

Your family doctor may or may not be specially knowledgeable about prostate cancer.  You need to talk to your urologist or perhaps some other prostate cancer specialist that your doctors can refer you to.  It is unlikely that you must decide in 10 days.  You can probably take a bit longer than that to be sure you understand everything and have made the right decision.  But once you make the decision, there is no point in dawdling further.     Here’s what info I DO have: 49 yrs. old – Philadelphia PA PSA 1.6 I believe the Dr. said 1 of 10 nodes(?) tested positive at something like 2% (but I wasn’t taking notes – guess I should have). Gleason? – No idea

The Gleason would be very important in deciding upon treatment.  Also, given your relatively low PSA, it seems possible that you were referred to a urologist because your doctor felt something on digital rectal examination.   Just what he felt would also be important. One thing to keep in mind is that at your age, aggressive treatment of early prostate cancer by a skilled practitioner is unlikely to have serious side effects.  But you want to be sure you do have a very skilled practitioner, particularly if you choose surgery.     Thanks in advance for you advice and comments. Tom

– Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208

Response:

Sorry about the Dx, Tom…… I was diagnosed September 20….. and have scheduled surgery for Nov. 21.  I’m scared to death….. Now…. a question to others……. my PSA is 8.8…. Gleaseon 3 + 3 = 6, Grade T1c, one of 12 cores positive, less than 5% tissue involvement….. But…… my doc is not doing bone or CAT scans?  Again, why the difference? My doc even says he will not take out the nodes…….   All the different opinions among docs surely does make this confusing…..

It used to be standard to do CAT scans and bone scans.   But with prostate cancer being discovered earlier and earlier, and with more information—such as the latest Partin tables—about the likelihood of finding anything with these tests, many doctors don’t bother.  I had a Gleason 7=3+4, and my urologist also didn’t bother with either of those tests. The purpose of a CAT scan is to see if there is any evidence of cancer beyond the gland, but they are notoriously difficult to interpret. Similarly for MRIs, but there are some newer MRI technique that show promise of doing better.   Many doctors don’t think these measures add any information not obtainable from the Partin tables.  Bone scans might show indication of metastasis, but for early prostate cancer discovered by PSA testing with Gleason scores in the range 5-7, it is very unlikely that a bone scan will show anything. Moreover, it may be difficult to distinguish other bone lesions from cancer and lead to unnecessary anxiety and uncertainty. But some doctors are more conservative and prefer the methods they have been using for years.  Also, some doctors want a bone scan to provide a baseline to compare with if at some time in the future there is evidence of metastasis.  I think that the doctors don’t really differ that much about the usefulness of any of these tests, but some still think it wise to use them.  It may be the "belt and suspenders" mentality. As to removing lymph nodes, according to the Partin tables, with your diagnois, the chances of the lymph nodes being positive are essentially zero.   Some doctors believe arithmetic more than others, and maybe some don’t completely trust the research behind the Partin tables. — Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208

Response:

Leonard….. Did the doc remove your lymph nodes?? Were your numbers that different from mine? Did you have any node involvement? Thanks for always taking the time to reply…. and help…. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry about the Dx, Tom…… I was diagnosed September 20….. and have scheduled surgery for Nov. 21.  I’m scared to death….. Now…. a question to others……. my PSA is 8.8…. Gleaseon 3 + 3 = 6, Grade T1c, one of 12 cores positive, less than 5% tissue involvement….. But…… my doc is not doing bone or CAT scans?  Again, why the difference? My doc even says he will not take out the nodes…….   All the different opinions among docs surely does make this confusing….. It used to be standard to do CAT scans and bone scans.   But with prostate cancer being discovered earlier and earlier, and with more information—such as the latest Partin tables—about the likelihood of finding anything with these tests, many doctors don’t bother.  I had a Gleason 7=3+4, and my urologist also didn’t bother with either of those tests. The purpose of a CAT scan is to see if there is any evidence of cancer beyond the gland, but they are notoriously difficult to interpret. Similarly for MRIs, but there are some newer MRI technique that show promise of doing better.   Many doctors don’t think these measures add any information not obtainable from the Partin tables.  Bone scans might show indication of metastasis, but for early prostate cancer discovered by PSA testing with Gleason scores in the range 5-7, it is very unlikely that a bone scan will show anything. Moreover, it may be difficult to distinguish other bone lesions from cancer and lead to unnecessary anxiety and uncertainty. But some doctors are more conservative and prefer the methods they have been using for years.  Also, some doctors want a bone scan to provide a baseline to compare with if at some time in the future there is evidence of metastasis.  I think that the doctors don’t really differ that much about the usefulness of any of these tests, but some still think it wise to use them.  It may be the "belt and suspenders" mentality. As to removing lymph nodes, according to the Partin tables, with your diagnois, the chances of the lymph nodes being positive are essentially zero.   Some doctors believe arithmetic more than others, and maybe some don’t completely trust the research behind the Partin tables. — Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208

Response:

Sorry about the Dx, Tom…… I was diagnosed September 20….. and have scheduled surgery for Nov. 21.  I’m scared to death….. Now…. a question to others……. my PSA is 8.8…. Gleaseon 3 + 3 = 6, Grade T1c, one of 12 cores positive, less than 5% tissue involvement….. But…… my doc is not doing bone or CAT scans?  Again, why the difference? My doc even says he will not take out the nodes…….   All the different opinions among docs surely does make this confusing….. Take care, Tom…. I wish you well…..what part of the country are you from?  Read, read, read……. and study up on this as much as you can. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that makes me the newest member to "The Club".     Well, PC is new to me, which means that I don’t know what I don’t know …… and don’t know what to ask my doctor. I’ve scanned though some of the past posts and found references to some reading material, some websites, and a ton of great discussion. I’ll be checking them out, and reading back in this NG as far as I can in the next few days.     I’ll be seeing my family Dr. this Friday (was diagnosed by my Urologist yesterday), and would appreciate any suggestions regarding what info I should ask about. I’m getting my CAT & Bone scans next week, so if all goes OK I guess I have about 10 days to learn about, and decide, on the various treatment methods.     Here’s what info I DO have: 49 yrs. old – Philadelphia PA PSA 1.6 I believe the Dr. said 1 of 10 nodes(?) tested positive at something like 2% (but I wasn’t taking notes – guess I should have). Gleason? – No idea     Thanks in advance for you advice and comments. Tom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom, Sorry to hear about your recent Dx.  Welcome to the club anyway, all the members here will provide whatever assistance and advice requested.  You are on the right track with your reading.  Read as much information as you can get your hands on especially with the various treatments available and the side effects.  Your details look a little bit screwy however I am sure you will obtain greater understanding as you read and gain more information. Good luck and keep us posted….oh, BTW you have age on your side. AW Sydney, Australia     I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that makes me the newest member to "The Club".     Well, PC is new to me, which means that I don’t know what I don’t know …… and don’t know what to ask my doctor. I’ve scanned though some of the past posts and found references to some reading material, some websites, and a ton of great discussion. I’ll be checking them out, and reading back in this NG as far as I can in the next few days.     I’ll be seeing my family Dr. this Friday (was diagnosed by my Urologist yesterday), and would appreciate any suggestions regarding what info I should ask about. I’m getting my CAT & Bone scans next week, so if all goes OK I guess I have about 10 days to learn about, and decide, on the various treatment methods.     Here’s what info I DO have: 49 yrs. old – Philadelphia PA PSA 1.6 I believe the Dr. said 1 of 10 nodes(?) tested positive at something like 2% (but I wasn’t taking notes – guess I should have). Gleason? – No idea     Thanks in advance for you advice and comments. Tom

Not a bad idea to have a different pathologist, from a different hospital, check the readings on your biopsy slides. Your treatment will be greatly dependent on the reading of the Gleason score plus pther items, of course. (And keep records, PSA, any treatments, etc.) — "Labrias contrectant tobacus, nunquam contrectabunt meus" Paul F

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Tom, Sorry to hear about your recent Dx.  Welcome to the club anyway, all the members here will provide whatever assistance and advice requested.  You are on the right track with your reading.  Read as much information as you can get your hands on especially with the various treatments available and the side effects.  Your details look a little bit screwy however I am sure you will obtain greater understanding as you read and gain more information. Good luck and keep us posted….oh, BTW you have age on your side. AW Sydney, Australia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that makes me the newest member to "The Club".     Well, PC is new to me, which means that I don’t know what I don’t know …… and don’t know what to ask my doctor. I’ve scanned though some of the past posts and found references to some reading material, some websites, and a ton of great discussion. I’ll be checking them out, and reading back in this NG as far as I can in the next few days.     I’ll be seeing my family Dr. this Friday (was diagnosed by my Urologist yesterday), and would appreciate any suggestions regarding what info I should ask about. I’m getting my CAT & Bone scans next week, so if all goes OK I guess I have about 10 days to learn about, and decide, on the various treatment methods.     Here’s what info I DO have: 49 yrs. old – Philadelphia PA PSA 1.6 I believe the Dr. said 1 of 10 nodes(?) tested positive at something like 2% (but I wasn’t taking notes – guess I should have). Gleason? – No idea     Thanks in advance for you advice and comments. Tom

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    I was just diagnosed with Prostate Cancer yesterday, so I guess that makes me the newest member to "The Club".     Well, PC is new to me, which means that I don’t know what I don’t know …… and don’t know what to ask my doctor. I’ve scanned though some of the past posts and found references to some reading material, some websites, and a ton of great discussion. I’ll be checking them out, and reading back in this NG as far as I can in the next few days.     I’ll be seeing my family Dr. this Friday (was diagnosed by my Urologist yesterday), and would appreciate any suggestions regarding what info I should ask about. I’m getting my CAT & Bone scans next week, so if all goes OK I guess I have about 10 days to learn about, and decide, on the various treatment methods.     Here’s what info I DO have: 49 yrs. old – Philadelphia PA PSA 1.6 I believe the Dr. said 1 of 10 nodes(?) tested positive at something like 2% (but I wasn’t taking notes – guess I should have). Gleason? – No idea     Thanks in advance for you advice and comments. Tom

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Hi, Michael. Did the report mention your Stage (T1a, T2b,…) or your overall Gleason score (3+3=6, 3+4=7, …)? The "last sentences" merely means that the biopsy did not identify any escape from the capsule.  You won’t know for sure until and unless your prostate is removed and biopsied on a lab table. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I just received my membership card in this group today.  From the posts I’ve seen, you seem to be a caring and well informed, well, family.(?) While I can hardly say it is a pleasure to join, I look forward to our give and take — and your guidance. I have "adenocarcinoma" in one core with a gleason score of 6. My Uro said that was cancer in 5% to 10% of the prostate.  I have high-grade PIN in "part C, as well as in several other cores," according to the biopsy report. One core has "chronic and focal acute inflammation with atrophy of the prostate." Two cores have "Intraepithelial neoplasia, high grade, focal, of prostate." Four cores have "benign hyperplasia of prostate." In a descriptive section, the report says, "Present in two of three core fragments in part C are foci of moderately differentiated invasive adenocarcinoma of intermediate nuclear grade having architectural features of Gleason’s pattern 3.  On the slides, the larger focus measures about 0.1 cm, and the smaller is about 0.6 mm. Together, they occupy between 5 – 10% of the total area in part C. No perineurel invasion is identified." Does this last sentence mean I have no cancer outside the prostate? I forgot to ask that question. I’m 60 and in otherwise excellent health. I run around 20 miles a week on a track behind our house. (That’s about two pairs of running shoes a year! I see there are some runners among you.) What did I leave out? I would appreciate any feedback you feel is appropriate. Michael K

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The "last sentences" merely means that the biopsy did not identify any escape from the capsule.

No, it doesn’t mean that. See my posting above above, and: http://prostatepointers.org/prostate/oppenheimer/oppenheimer3.html (in the 5th paragraph up from the end). — Peter Headland

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Welcome from a less-than-a year member.  You have come to the right place, with knowledgeable, intelligent, and, above all, very caring and sincere people.  Being here has made an enormous difference to me as I have dealt with PCa–I only wish I had known of it earlier.  But true support is here and, as I have gratefully learned, some very real and important helpful suggestions.  By the way, as I read your information, I believe that you have every reason to be  very optimistic.  But, of course, you must make a treatment decision and take care of your PCa.  The very best of luck to you.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I think I just received my membership card in this group today.  From the posts I’ve seen, you seem to be a caring and well informed, well, family.(?) While I can hardly say it is a pleasure to join, I look forward to our give and take — and your guidance. I have "adenocarcinoma" in one core with a gleason score of 6. My Uro said that was cancer in 5% to 10% of the prostate.  I have high-grade PIN in "part C, as well as in several other cores," according to the biopsy report. One core has "chronic and focal acute inflammation with atrophy of the prostate." Two cores have "Intraepithelial neoplasia, high grade, focal, of prostate." Four cores have "benign hyperplasia of prostate." In a descriptive section, the report says, "Present in two of three core fragments in part C are foci of moderately differentiated invasive adenocarcinoma of intermediate nuclear grade having architectural features of Gleason’s pattern 3.  On the slides, the larger focus measures about 0.1 cm, and the smaller is about 0.6 mm. Together, they occupy between 5 – 10% of the total area in part C. No perineurel invasion is identified." Does this last sentence mean I have no cancer outside the prostate? I forgot to ask that question. I’m 60 and in otherwise excellent health. I run around 20 miles a week on a track behind our house. (That’s about two pairs of running shoes a year! I see there are some runners among you.) What did I leave out? I would appreciate any feedback you feel is appropriate. Michael K

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Given the fad for women to fry and eat their placentas after birth, maybe I should be demanding to be allowed to eat my prostate? — Peter Headland

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Oops! Yes, you’re right of course, it was the wrong word, not what I intended.

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Hello Michael, welcome to the "family".  This is without a doubt the best ng that I have ever seen.  You will find a wide range of topics here.  Do not be put off by the humor when it presents itself.  There is also frank discussion that some find offensive, and we have unfortunately lost members over some of it.  Do not be afraid to ask any questions here.  We are all here for information and support.  You will no doubt run into a lot of practical problems as you progress through this experience.  There are a lot of resources available to help you educate yourself, e.g., the phoenix5 web site.  Take a look at Joe’s recent post, "1300 Page Prostate Cancer Website".  There is a wealth of information there. On your numbers, you appear to be in good shape.  I was PSA 5.0, PSA Free 6%, Gleason 6 (post surgery path report reported Gleason 5), 6% in two of ten biopsy specimens, prostate 30 grams.  They told me that there was almost no chance that the cancer had spread when I was diagnosed, and after the RRP the path report showed organ contained disease, clear surgical margins, and lymph nodes clear.  I wish you the same! Good luck. Thank you. David S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I just received my membership card in this group today.  From the posts I’ve seen, you seem to be a caring and well informed, well, family.(?) While I can hardly say it is a pleasure to join, I look forward to our give and take — and your guidance. I have "adenocarcinoma" in one core with a gleason score of 6. My Uro said that was cancer in 5% to 10% of the prostate.  I have high-grade PIN in "part C, as well as in several other cores," according to the biopsy report. One core has "chronic and focal acute inflammation with atrophy of the prostate." Two cores have "Intraepithelial neoplasia, high grade, focal, of prostate." Four cores have "benign hyperplasia of prostate." In a descriptive section, the report says, "Present in two of three core fragments in part C are foci of moderately differentiated invasive adenocarcinoma of intermediate nuclear grade having architectural features of Gleason’s pattern 3.  On the slides, the larger focus measures about 0.1 cm, and the smaller is about 0.6 mm. Together, they occupy between 5 – 10% of the total area in part C. No perineurel invasion is identified." Does this last sentence mean I have no cancer outside the prostate? I forgot to ask that question. I’m 60 and in otherwise excellent health. I run around 20 miles a week on a track behind our house. (That’s about two pairs of running shoes a year! I see there are some runners among you.) What did I leave out? I would appreciate any feedback you feel is appropriate. Michael K

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On June 13, responding to Mike, Wayne wrote in pertinent part: My own case was very similar, age 66, PSA 4.3, one of 12 cores with Gleaon 6. Pathology reported two palatable tumors after they got it out.  Nothing palatable via DRE.  

I know that criticizing a poster’s errors in language is considered to be flaming, but I got such jolt out of the above, that, meaning no offense, I just have to comment. About tumors, Wayne, of course, meant to write "palpable," meaning "obvious." What he wrote was "palatable," meaning "delicious." This brought to my sick mind visions of eating — and enjoying — tumors. Ech. To wax didactic, this would be a "malapropism," which is defined as, "(t)he usually unintentionally humorous misuse of a word, especially by confusion with one of similar sound." (Dictionary.com) OK, got that out of my system and school is dismissed  ;-) Except for Mike’s hard school of learning about the nature of his disease and what best to do about it. I very strongly recommend reference to the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html There, Mike will find objective information and references that should help him immensely in the coming struggle. All the best, and do keep us informed. Regards, Steve J "Never give in–never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” –Sir Winston L. S. Churchill

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Hello JK. Sinrod,     Nice post and right to the point. I was back east for a week.  It was extremely fun, and hot. 94o and hello…..very high humidity… Good info to Michael Kiely. John Loomis

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I just received my membership card in this group today.  From the posts I’ve seen, you seem to be a caring and well informed, well, family.(?) While I can hardly say it is a pleasure to join, I look forward to our give and take — and your guidance.  Consider yourself a lucky guy! How’s that for a positive spin on things? You got yourself diagnosed early, and there’s a very good chance you’ll die of getting hit by a truck before you croak of PCa. Read and absorb all your options. My personal and slanted advice is to find the best experienced surgeon and hospital in your area and have an RP.  I’m 55 and 3 years post surgery. I’m very pleased with where I am in life now. Good luck! — JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

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I think I just received my membership card in this group today.  From the posts I’ve seen, you seem to be a caring and well informed, well, family.(?) While I can hardly say it is a pleasure to join, I look forward to our give and take — and your guidance.

  Consider yourself a lucky guy! How’s that for a positive spin on things? You got yourself diagnosed early, and there’s a very good chance you’ll die of getting hit by a truck before you croak of PCa. Read and absorb all your options. My personal and slanted advice is to find the best experienced surgeon and hospital in your area and have an RP.  I’m 55 and 3 years post surgery. I’m very pleased with where I am in life now. Good luck! — JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

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"Perineural invasion" means the cancer is spreading along nerves within the prostate; it doesn’t tell you anything about whether it has extended beyond the prostate capsule. Recent studies by some of the best in the field suggest that this very common finding is meaningless. Biopsies can never tell you that there is definitely no cancer outside your prostate. They usually cannot tell you even if there is. Only surgery could give you any reasonable indication about that (and even then, the cancer might have metastasized to a different site, though that seems very unlikely in your case). The inflammation and atrophy are very common and don’t mean anything at all in respect of cancer. For future reference, "prostatic intraepithelial neoplasia" = PIN. Generally considered to be precancerous, but might not become so for many decades. All-in-all, that is pretty good pathology, given that it is positive at all. But get a move on and choose a treatment plan – you can’t ignore this. As others have said, a second opinion on the pathology from a top-rated centre might be illuminating. — Peter Headland

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I think I just received my membership card in this group today.  From the posts I’ve seen, you seem to be a caring and well informed, well, family.(?) While I can hardly say it is a pleasure to join, I look forward to our give and take — and your guidance. I have "adenocarcinoma" in one core with a gleason score of 6. My Uro said that was cancer in 5% to 10% of the prostate.  I have high-grade PIN in "part C, as well as in several other cores," according to the biopsy report. One core has "chronic and focal acute inflammation with atrophy of the prostate." Two cores have "Intraepithelial neoplasia, high grade, focal, of prostate." Four cores have "benign hyperplasia of prostate." In a descriptive section, the report says, "Present in two of three core fragments in part C are foci of moderately differentiated invasive adenocarcinoma of intermediate nuclear grade having architectural features of Gleason’s pattern 3.  On the slides, the larger focus measures about 0.1 cm, and the smaller is about 0.6 mm. Together, they occupy between 5 – 10% of the total area in part C. No perineurel invasion is identified." Does this last sentence mean I have no cancer outside the prostate? I forgot to ask that question. I’m 60 and in otherwise excellent health. I run around 20 miles a week on a track behind our house. (That’s about two pairs of running shoes a year! I see there are some runners among you.)

That is a serious problem, but you can increase the milage on your shoes by applying some glue over the heel worn spots with a hot glue gun.  You must repeat this every few days, as it wears away, but it adds very many miles. Kidding a little of course.  No joy, but a warm welcome to the club anyway.   No, the biopsy is not sufficient to declare no cancer outside the prostate.     "No perineurel invasion is identified" just means the bioposy samples did not identify any at the limited locations of the cores.  However your case of one core with Gleason 6 is relatively low grade, which probably does means about 99% chance of none outside yet, according to the Partin tables (books below, and online too).  That is the good news, you have time to cure this thing. First thing to do is to make sure your doctor got a second opinion on the biopsy lab work.  I’d assume that is pretty standard, to be sure it is accurate before planning action based on it.   Second thing is to read at least a couple of Prostate Cancer books, Walsh or Dummies for example are excellent.  Only after you acquire some understanding do you decide a plan. I didnt understand most of the words in your report, but the pathololgy report after RRP surgery will be greatly more accurate.   The report wont get any better after they get it out to look at it (all they can do is find more).   But they can actually see and test all of the margins then, which will be meaningful.  And you will know then it is gone. My own case was very similar, age 66, PSA 4.3, one of 12 cores with Gleaon 6.   Pathology reported two palatable tumors after they got it out.  Nothing palatable via DRE.   The side effects of RRP are far from trivial, but I’m glad the cancer is gone now. Wayne

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I think I just received my membership card in this group today.  From the posts I’ve seen, you seem to be a caring and well informed, well, family.(?) While I can hardly say it is a pleasure to join, I look forward to our give and take — and your guidance. I have "adenocarcinoma" in one core with a gleason score of 6. My Uro said that was cancer in 5% to 10% of the prostate.  I have high-grade PIN in "part C, as well as in several other cores," according to the biopsy report. One core has "chronic and focal acute inflammation with atrophy of the prostate." Two cores have "Intraepithelial neoplasia, high grade, focal, of prostate." Four cores have "benign hyperplasia of prostate." In a descriptive section, the report says, "Present in two of three core fragments in part C are foci of moderately differentiated invasive adenocarcinoma of intermediate nuclear grade having architectural features of Gleason’s pattern 3.  On the slides, the larger focus measures about 0.1 cm, and the smaller is about 0.6 mm. Together, they occupy between 5 – 10% of the total area in part C. No perineurel invasion is identified." Does this last sentence mean I have no cancer outside the prostate? I forgot to ask that question. I’m 60 and in otherwise excellent health. I run around 20 miles a week on a track behind our house. (That’s about two pairs of running shoes a year! I see there are some runners among you.) What did I leave out? I would appreciate any feedback you feel is appropriate. Michael K

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Question:

Hey, it’s just okay, Chloe, relax and feel as fine as you can, have a nice weekend. It’s raining in my place now, hope it’s better in yours. Sumi

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"sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes: > Hey, it’s just okay, Chloe, > relax and feel as fine as you can, > have a nice weekend. > It’s raining in my place now, > hope it’s better in yours.

Its the kind of day where if there is no rain, for the irst weekend (possibly rain tomorrow or this evening) yu;d not mind any to clear the air. I have ot opened the doors since this morning, to not let the heat in. Not a clue iof it got better. To me, a nice spring day is a day where there i a teue blue sky, no awful humidity, and a nice lil breeze. This is what it used to be like after the third week of august, up to a decade ago. I think the dome cleared away though sometime this morning. I deided to sort through my closest anyway to see what I coudl wear, as jeans are suddenly unbarable. Got a few dresses thAT STILL FiT AFTER THE GAINING A NORMAL WEIGHT, SOME TOO TIGHTLY (oh, darned be the stupid inventor f the cap key!), ome not at all by much:). But most are darn acetate which I never wear (hand me downs) or are so lil house in the prairie, I;d wanna die. Where the…do they darn sell cotton anymore??? Argh. I’ll have to go shopign during my holidays. Darn with all I’d have to do to get to summer, in the house, shopping, cleaning up, paintng, I;d need six months of holidays, not one week!!! Argh. I have wo that can pass, but not sure if th4e shoes I have fot at all. I have black or almost white (not cream and not offwhite, more like a creamy egg white?) in sandals. Small heel. BUT at my heigt this means that if I go outdoors on my breaks, I can not sit anywhere. Yhey use lil walls to sit on, and my knees already are in my fporehead when I sit on those with flat shoes. Nice view for the guys sitting on the lil ""pool" (fountain bassin) across from that spot, heh:(. As well, my darn legs are so long if I wear any heels I can not fit them under my desk. They hardly fit at all without heels, wehre I have to contorsion myself to slide both knees under the desk, and sit twistign my spine like mad, too. Already spent over 500 on chiros this year…Can;t make it worse, no mo’e money to put on that…Too many things to see to, like havign decent appropriate fo the season dresses and clothes. Its enough that Graves makes me sensitive to hot and cold, I donlt have to wear jean, a sweater, woolen socks and running shoes when its 35 C and humid, nah! Sheesh. Too bad, two of the w3inter dresses fot me quite well, maybe three. Nothing I coud wear at work though. If they woud look exec on soemone else, on me, they are too much of a killer dress type… Tryign things on reminded me of how I was before Graves hit. I.e. of how I woud wear dresses all the time, working and nto having had yet the decade without work, unable to work…Amnd how I would retouch clothes, or have them retouch -by my mom- saying how I thought doing the shoulders that way, removing the sleeves or bundling the waste on one side or whatever woudl make it look. I laughed when that ability kicked in again after 20 tries… Gawd, I shudl have married a designer. But they all are gay, so:):) I mean, he’d have made a fortune with me telling him to fix this cut here this and that way:) Made me think of how old my mom now is, and of how she used to always bend to my "caprices", in part for living creativity herself, but also laughing at the weird ideas I had that usually ened up great:), and started fashions. She woudl laugh when I;d get to have to find some other way of wearing this or that once the same thing ht th market and was worn everywhere:). I’ll never find anyone to ever go with me on theideas after her…She still would sowe woudl we ask her but no one wants to as she is 82 going on 83….and would make herself sick staying up late ith "orders" from everyoen if oen started that. I’d not. Makes me have flashbacks of being four and being called in the house to try my new dresses or blouses or shorts or pants…. She;d do them for the entire bunch we were… Starting age nine or so, I;d say "Mom, coudl you put the pockets a conrasting color and the sleeves cuuffs, too? " or "Wow. You know, if we coudl add just a fine thread of discrete marine here, it would be so neat and pick up the skin tone and eye color, too…? One day, I was a kid in grade three. Barely the 60s:) Ky sister got rid of her baton girl boots. They fitted me number one, but the dam pompom, and the cut like cowbopy boots. Sigh…. I asked mom f I coudl have themn, and removed the pompoms. A few years later, after they all asked where I got these neat boots, everyone was wearing them in Quebec, and somewhere in the States, so did Nancy Sinatra. They became known as gogo boots. As soon a they were, mine hit the garbage can. I already had a dozen more ideas:) Gawd, I miss my mommie…………. I planned on ging to see her tomorrow of the weather allowed. I.e. if I was not too spaced ut from the ehat and if it did not rain…My tires are too bad to drive on a highway when there is rain. I already risk the freeway each day to go to work, heh. I need to et tires during my hpolidays! Beigish juuuust a touch of invisible pinkish touch shoes… A black handbag that woudl not look to wintery. Many many skirts, tops, dresses… But most of all..No sencond most of all I need a tan. Must get a tan when I have my holidays in the shopign centre or painting walls and cleaning the house:) and installing tires and and and…… Forst most-of-all..I need a face!!!! Oh, I also need a strapless bra or three, and and and…no seams panties and beige invsible lines panties, and a few bracelets and a few sober neklaces and earings, and I need cotton colored clothes, not beige, not black, not navy, not red. More like …Hm….I dunno. I changed palette. I’ll have to find out durign my holidays.WhenI take breaks from email and the rest:) Hahahaha:) C  >  > Sumi —

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I made all your posts from the other end to here. It’s asl after all, where one can find you Have a nice day and mail me again. Sumi

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As I said in a long post to Ghost this morning, I have not emailed anyone in weeks…. Just was crawling under work overload…. In the evenigns, spenbt less time online too, out of decompression taking its time once at home….then havign to sleep and take care of pets meds and so on….and of my own health. Not doing this out of wantign to iugnore anyone, but when that rushed and speedy, I just post too lng, even more than usual, and email too long. It works this way. The ver4bal faculty is exacerbated, with Graves, in my case. probably cause I am more "gifted" verbally than in other ways:), to start with. When nto tired, I control it more. But if tired and exausted, the control switch gets out of my reach as the mind just blows in all directions, no focus, no concentration just goig from one thing to another, the rbaina ctivities so speeded up that catchign the roder or signal to stop is beyond human capacity. I am holding on as I can. Beign careful with sleep whent he eather allows, staying out of the sun like today if I am so dreamign of being on sime beach, and staying offline more when it gets to speeded up, also cause the puter waves I then seem to physically feel hittign my brain and exaerbating it even more, for some reason. Just like I then end up feelign waves from the microwave (yes, with the door closed….Even with the new one….). There are days when I thin that maybe Graves is linked to all those waves our world is polluted with. And it seems to hit people who are more intitive as wqell, where maybe there is some ability to "cathc waves already in place in those people. I dunno. But being on line when Graves bugs me is a nono…. Sorry. Nothing personal with o oen at all…. I then always start by asl, so that if anyone weants to find me and know I am alive still, they all could see I am, even on days where I just make one post, sparing people from 20 extremely long posts, when I can. Sorry again…. To all who await an email…. Goofing in here I also find not as bad with consequences as goofing on a one on one email, where email is always seen as more personal…. C  "sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes: > I made all your posts from the other end > to here. It’s asl after all, where one can > find you Have a nice day and mail me > again. > Sumi

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Perhaps a few topics of varied interest coudl offer you soemthign to post about. Maybe it is time for a few new topics. Let’s see what we can come up with. Coming up, in new thread titles. Pick one, and make it whatever you want from there, or make new ones too!:) C —

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