Run Run Away » nike running » Quoting from rec.running on the web – any complaints?
Quoting from rec.running on the web – any complaints?
Question:
As someone pointed out, I don’t believe that the copyright protection of newsgroup posting has been tested yet. However, under current copyright law, any work, and I suppose that this could mean posts to newsgroups, is automatically protected under law. It used to be that you had to file for a copyright, but this is no longer the case. Of course, this only applies to US copyrights. Perry — PGP encrypted mail welcome Visit KidPub! http://www.kidpub.org/kidpub
Response:
Is it O.K. to use material posted by other rec.running subscribers on a web page? How do people feel about being quoted on the world wide web? Is it breach of copyright? I would of course be promoting rec.running as the best place to get information on the internet but I don’t want to upset anyone by using their words. I deal with this regularly. There is normally not a copyright issue in useing messages that has been posted on a newgroup, since it is a public forum.
Several posts have alluded to various parts of copyright as it applies to postings on the net. The single best source of information is the Copyright FAQ. I’m on the FAQ maintainers mailing list, and the subject of copyright is a regularly recurring issue. A few points from there: 1) Financial gain is _not_ relevant. You do not have to prove financial damage to win a copyright suit. (It may affect what awards you receive.) 2) The item need not be physically fixed. (Radio broadcasts are copyright protected, as are posts to the net.) 3) Under the Bern convention, to which the US, Canada, and most of Europe (not sure about Japan) are signatory, items are copyright protected at the instant of production. 4) Per number 3, no explicit copyright notice is required. _Everything_ is copyright protected until its author explicitly states otherwise. 5) The protection of copyright means that the author has control over reuse and propagation of his work. It does not mean that he expects to get rich on the thing, or that he will ever charge money for it. Simply that the author gets to decide where and how the document is reproduced. Several other things can come up, and the body of case law is not yet large to resoundingly decide the points. What this means in practice: Ask the authors if they mind. Almost nobody does, ever. In return for the consideration of asking, you get at minimum legal permission for doing what you want. You may also encounter, and I’ve done this for people for my sea level change faq, an author who will write a version of his note specifically for the purpose you have in mind. Or maybe they have a better version of the post that you’re interested in and can send you that instead. Authors also like to know that somebody out there likes their writing enough to want to add it to their web page. This encourages them to continue. So you can’t lose anything, and may possibly gain a lot. As Mike said: I generally ask permission before I use something unique or technical. Most authors are flattered that you’d want to use it and are pleased that you had the courtesy to ask. For example, on my IronVirgins web site, I use two postings to r.s.t. by Dr.Mark Jenkins on sodium and on insulin. Legally, I probably didn’t need "permission", but I asked if he minded and he was appreciative and even suggested that I put in a link to his web site. It builds better relations to be courteous. I would cite the author where possible, but don’t give an email unless they explicitly ask. That’s a privacy issue. They may not appreciate getting inquiries about a past posting.
Per above, legally he did need the permission. But note the outcome of asking. To be safe, don’t use anything copyrighted without permission.
And assume that everything is copyrighted until proven otherwise. — Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
Response:
It has come to my attention that Lars Pensjo wrote in article Is it O.K. to use material posted by other rec.running subscribers on a web page? How do people feel about being quoted on the world wide web? Is it breach of copyright? I would of course be promoting rec.running as the best place to get information on the internet but I don’t want to upset anyone by using their words. I deal with this regularly. There is normally not a copyright issue in useing messages that has been posted on a newgroup, since it is a public forum. The various running tips, race reports, humor, etc that we give here fall under that category. Is this really the case? There is no longer such a thing as public domain, and all material are automatically copyrighted. This may be different from country to country.
This has been a hot issue in a mail list where programming and technical ideas are common topics, causing great concern about archived Internet messages. To try to distill what I understood to be the consensus from there, with the understanding that I’m not technically up to speed on these matters: Under current copyright law (in the US and in countries signatory to the international agreement(s)), copyright begins when the material is fixed in physical form–registration is not necessary to secure copyright, but enhances claims and enforceability. Publication, even in a public forum and not for profit, does NOT remove the author’s copyright protection, nor does it put the material into public domain (i.e., with no copyright protection). Copyright runs for stated lengths of time, generally about 50 years, but there are specific guidelines involving such things as death date of the author, estate considerations, time of first publication, etc. Old materials pass(ed) into public domain upon expiration of the copyright. Note, though, that an *arrangement* of materials can be newly copyrighted even if the individual materials are in public domain (example: a musical arrangement or orchestration). Of course an author always has the option of specifically placing material in the public domain, as well. — Don
Response:
Keep in mind that material has to be eligible for copyright, too. Not just anything can be copyrighted.
true. one test is market value. the estate of mark twain has a monetary interest against someone plagiarizing his work and can therefore sue for violation. a trolly post otoh may have negative market value, how will you copy-*right* it? maybe copy-*duty* it?":))) also, part of the eligibility has to do with *can* some court enforce any possible copyright. andrew dice clay, howard stern and mike judge (creator of beavis and butthead) may say a lot of things but they cannot sue for copyright on a lot of them. because they did not invent the phrases they use a lot, like "nice rack" and "come here and jump up and down for me, honey.":)))))))) thus if you cannot show originality then you cannot sue for copyright. only exact material can be copyrighted, not general ideas. usually, government material cannot be copyrighted. eg. the us govt. cannot copyright the annual federal budget documents. comments made voluntarily on a public forum cannot usually be copyrighted. of all the above, basically the profit motive determines what gets sued for violation. the dow jones company can sue for lifting material from the wall street journal. the socialist students’ party otoh may *beg* to have their material lifted from "commie times" or similar and spread all over with or without their permission, approval or knowledge. hope this helps. abhay (not a lawyer, but could probably get a harvard jd in 6 months in kick ass style…oh and the above represents valuable legal advice, it is copyrighted:)))))
Response:
I deal with this regularly. There is normally not a copyright issue in useing messages that has been posted on a newgroup, since it is a public forum. The various running tips, race reports, humor, etc that we give here fall under that category. No, you can’t post large exerpts from Galloway’s book on your page w/o his permission. There are "fair use" exceptions that apply, but I don’t want to get into that.
Mike, Interesting stuff this. I’m wondering about issues of hard v. electronic copies, and international jurisdiction. Maybe you, or anyone else, happens to have an answer to some scenarios: 1) Buy a magazine, type out an article (or the whole mag if you wish!!), so that a second ‘copy’ now exists on your HDD. Has copyright been broken? 2) That electronic copy just happens to be on a web page and is readable by anyone who accesses the site. Any difference to situation (1) ? 3) Now that electronic copy is ‘broadcast’ via Usenet. Is there any distinction here? Repeat all of above, but take a U.S. magazine, and the electronic copy residing outside U.S. Or do these questions remain to tested in the courts? Miles — Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_ to email back to me
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it O.K. to use material posted by other rec.running subscribers on a web page? How do people feel about being quoted on the world wide web? Is it breach of copyright? I would of course be promoting rec.running as the best place to get information on the internet but I don’t want to upset anyone by using their words. I deal with this regularly. There is normally not a copyright issue in useing messages that has been posted on a newgroup, since it is a public forum. The various running tips, race reports, humor, etc that we give here fall under that category. Is this really the case? There is no longer such a thing as public domain, and all material are automatically copyrighted. This may be different from country to country.
"I think your long run should be 10 miles." Is that copyrighted just because I posted it here? Perhaps I could "claim" copyright, but enforcing it would be another matter. Yes, there are some rather ingenious arguments being forwarded in this area. There are those that would claim that, even though they posted a message on a newsgroup that is dissiminated world-wide, they didn’t intend for everyone to read it. Same argument with web sites. It’s a new medium with new frontiers. The rules will vary from country to country and will effect those living in those countries. But courts in most countries are interpreting cases in a common sense manner. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/running.htm My Model Railroad Layout http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/srr.htm
Response:
I’m not a lawyer, nor do I play one on t.v., but here’s my understanding… Mike, Interesting stuff this. I’m wondering about issues of hard v. electronic copies, and international jurisdiction. Maybe you, or anyone else, happens to have an answer to some scenarios: 1) Buy a magazine, type out an article (or the whole mag if you wish!!), so that a second ‘copy’ now exists on your HDD. Has copyright been broken?
Not yet. You are generally allowed to make a copy for personal use. 2) That electronic copy just happens to be on a web page and is readable by anyone who accesses the site. Any difference to situation (1) ?
Yes. It’s not for personal use anymore. Copyright violated unless you have permission to use it. 3) Now that electronic copy is ‘broadcast’ via Usenet. Is there any distinction here?
I assume you mean does illegal dissimination effect the original copyright. Nope. Anyone using it is still violating the copyright. However, liability of the third or fourth party might be questionable if the original violator didn’t cite the source. Repeat all of above, but take a U.S. magazine, and the electronic copy residing outside U.S.
That’s a lot trickier. And lots of lawyers are making lots of money pusuing that issue. I don’t think it’s been resolved. Or do these questions remain to tested in the courts? Miles
Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/running.htm My Model Railroad Layout http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/srr.htm
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it O.K. to use material posted by other rec.running subscribers on a web page? How do people feel about being quoted on the world wide web? Is it breach of copyright? I would of course be promoting rec.running as the best place to get information on the internet but I don’t want to upset anyone by using their words. I deal with this regularly. There is normally not a copyright issue in useing messages that has been posted on a newgroup, since it is a public forum. The various running tips, race reports, humor, etc that we give here fall under that category.
Is this really the case? There is no longer such a thing as public domain, and all material are automatically copyrighted. This may be different from country to country.
Response:
Is it O.K. to use material posted by other rec.running subscribers on a web page?
Anything posted to a newsgroup is in the public domain. It is all available via DejaNews and other such newsgathering databases anyway. How do people feel about being quoted on the world wide web?
Personally I couldn’t give a damn. I suppose as a matter of courtesy you could offer to remove anything that people would prefer not to be there. One interesting point of etiquette might be quoting the email address of the author: Some people might be unhappy not to get the ‘credit’. Others might prefer that their words of wisdom remain anonymous, or at least not too easy for anyone reading the page to fire off an email. Is it breach of copyright?
I don’t *think* this has been tested yet. Plus there is the complication of Usenet being international. But maybe someone else can give a more definitive answer to the current state of play? Also, one thing I know is breach of copyright is quoting from books, magazines etc. Is this to be advised?
True. Though one way to circumvent that is to paraphrase a particular article. Not a bad idea to cut out the dross anyway, magazine articles can tend to be very ‘flowery’ in their language. Also, a web page, what sort of medium is that. Ultimately it is just some information coded onto a hard drive somewhere. Does that count as publication? Miles — Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_ to email back to me
Response:
Is it O.K. to use material posted by other rec.running subscribers on a web page? How do people feel about being quoted on the world wide web? Is it breach of copyright? I would of course be promoting rec.running as the best place to get information on the internet but I don’t want to upset anyone by using their words. Also, one thing I know is breach of copyright is quoting from books, magazines etc. Is this to be advised? l -’ _ /
Response:
Is it O.K. to use material posted by other rec.running subscribers on a web page? How do people feel about being quoted on the world wide web?=20 Is it breach of copyright? I would of course be promoting rec.running as the best place to get information on the internet but I don’t want to upset anyone by using their words.
If you’re unsure, ask the specific authors whom you will be quoting, and be sure to give them full attribution. They may ask you to alter their email addresses to foil spambots, however. Also, one thing I know is breach of copyright is quoting from books, magazines etc. Is this to be advised?
You can quote small passages and such under "fair use," but quoting an article in its entirety is a copyright violation unless you have permission. The copyright law is contained in Title 17 of the United States Code. "Fair Use" is defined in section 107, quoted here for your convenience: =A7 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use=20 Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a=
copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by =
that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom=
use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work i=
n any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -=20 (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such us=
e is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;=20 (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;=20 (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation t=
o the copyrighted work as a whole; and=20 (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of=
the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such find=
ing is made upon consideration of all the above factors.=20
The U.S. Code is available in its entirety, replete with crosslinks, at http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/. If you’re of a mind, drop a kind note of thanks to the webmaster for providing this service. Regards, Chris BeHanna behannaatsyldotnjdotnecdotcom Senior Software Engineer NEC Systems Laboratory No, I don’t want unsolicited commercial email. Princeton, New Jersey See http://www.users.fast.net/~behanna/nospam.html (609) 734-6144 Warning: reply address deliberately munged to foil= spammers.