Run Run Away

Question:

Hi Happy, the best training schedule book I have found is the Self Coached Runner II by Allan Lawrence and Mark Scheid. Excellent schedules for middle and long distance. Regards, Alan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The truth is – we don’t know how hard you ran that 5k of yours, it could be it was an "all out" effort on your part – who knows? At the time it felt like an all out effort. But I’m interested in some pointers towards a training program. To all of you, this may sound weird, but I’ve never been on a track and haven’t much idea of what to do at a track other than run around. When I was in school there was no track, only a football team. Because I was not particularly big I wasn’t "athletic" by the standards of football players. Since the school’s interest was in football, a lot of guys like me really had no competitive sports activity. We weren’t the athletes. But since I took up running a year ago, I realize that it’s a sport in which I can participate and hold my own. Certainly not win, or come close to winning, but can hope to be in the top 25% for my age (and beat a lot of guys half my age). My 22:30 5k was done with maybe 10-12 miles a week of running. I figured that if I got on a real training program I might get be able to get down to the 20’s, which is why I’d appreciate any pointers on what to do. Are there training programs on the web? Phil.

Response:

Correction:  "anaerobic threshold" in the following sentence should have been replaced with " VO2 Max" Let’s talk turkey, here.  First, you CAN run a 5K at anaerobic threshold pace.  You absolutely, positively, 100% for certain CAN do it. Should have read:  "you CAN run a 5K at VO2 Max pace"

        Doubtful that anyone can run 5000m at VO2max pace.  It is generally held that the longest a person can hold VO2max pace is about 8 min (that is far short of the WR at the moment).         5K pace (assuming all out effort and some training) is probably faster than LT pace.  For most mortals LT pace is around 10K pace. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, for reality:  most folks don’t.  They run it at lactate threshold pace. Why? Likewise for the following sentence. Because sustaining VO2 max pace for any length of time is extremely painful.  In fact, it’s too painful for most folks.  Not from a physical standpoint, but from a mental one. If you can get past the pain, you can run faster.  It’s not only lack of ability that slows runners down or prevents them from running faster. It’s the inability to deal with the pain associated with higher speeds.  Your body isn’t your only limit.  Your reaction to pain is just as considerable a factor.

Response:

:  To all of you, this may sound weird, : but I’ve never been on a track and haven’t much idea of what to do at a : track other than run around. Ironically, that’s pretty much it – there’s not much else to do other than run around the track. Other people will probably direct you towards books like Daniels etc., I would direct you to a couple of websites – first of all there’s Kick training programs http://kicksports.com/bigrace/ Then there’s a bunch of training programs at Runners World site: http://www.runnersworld.com/training And if that’s not enough, I would check out running links at Dan Kaplan’s site www.dankaplan.com – he has hundreds of categorized links, rated by people who visit his website – check out Training Resources category. —  Oleg

Response:

Okay…. Let’s talk turkey, here.  First, you CAN run a 5K at anaerobic threshold pace.  You absolutely, positively, 100% for certain CAN do it. Now, for reality:  most folks don’t.  They run it at lactate threshold pace. Why?  Because sustaining AT pace for any length of time is extremely painful.  In fact, it’s too painful for most folks.  Not from a physical standpoint, but from a mental one.

        Would you please define "AT" and "LT"?  I ask since most people use them interchangeably to mean the same thing.  However, I like the bumper sticker a prof at UCLA had on his car:         "The anaerobic threshold is neither." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If you can get past the pain, you can run faster.  It’s not only lack of ability that slows runners down or prevents them from running faster.  It’s the inability to deal with the pain associated with higher speeds.  Your body isn’t your only limit.  Your reaction to pain is just as considerable a factor. However, to be perfectly honest, I believe your body could do it, now. The question is whether, mentally, you can do it. Chances are you could manage to swing it.  It’s a question of working through the pain you’d feel.  To do this, you’ll have to prepare yourself to run in some serious discomfort. Oh? You figure his 22:30 felt good? Nope, but running this thing at his potential will hurt a lot worse. So, yeah, you can do it.  You could probably do it with no additional training… at least physical training, that is. If your mind will let you do it, I bet its possible. Frankly, that’s crap:  Johnathon Livingston Seagull, inspirational Hallmark poster style, Nike JUST DO IT, be all that you can be, Runners World ‘R US crap. Well… thanks.  However, it’s NOT crap, Jenn, it’s fact.  Mental barriers will prevent runners from achieving their potential to nearly as great a degree as physical barriers.  For the average recreational runner/racer, it’s the inability to deal with pain and discomfort that’s the biggest limiting factor.  It’s not that folks CAN’T run faster, it’s that they aren’ t ready to cope with the pain they’ll endure. Examples:  how long until somebody ran a 4:00 mile?  It was even deemed to be physically impossible.  How many people have broken 4:00 since then?  How many broke it immediately after the first attempt?  It was the mental barrier that created the 4 minute mile barrier.  The physical had little to do with it. To quote Jack Daniels, the first time you break a 5:00 mile, it takes a LOT of effort.  However, generally, afterwards, you will find it a lot easier to do. Just because YOU aren’t willing to deal with the mental aspects of running doesn’t make it crap, Jenn.  There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. If someone’s doing a 22:30 they’re not going to do a 20:00 just by thinking happy thoughts. Actually, that statement is so profusely stupid and off the mark, I don’t even know where to begin.  I did not say he was going to get there by thinking "happy thoughts".  I said he’d get there by learning how to cope with pain. If you have to resort to distorting another person’s position in order to state your case, Jenn, YOU are full of crap.

Response:

The truth is – we don’t know how hard you ran that 5k of yours, it could be it was an "all out" effort on your part – who knows?

At the time it felt like an all out effort. But I’m interested in some pointers towards a training program. To all of you, this may sound weird, but I’ve never been on a track and haven’t much idea of what to do at a track other than run around. When I was in school there was no track, only a football team. Because I was not particularly big I wasn’t "athletic" by the standards of football players. Since the school’s interest was in football, a lot of guys like me really had no competitive sports activity. We weren’t the athletes. But since I took up running a year ago, I realize that it’s a sport in which I can participate and hold my own. Certainly not win, or come close to winning, but can hope to be in the top 25% for my age (and beat a lot of guys half my age). My 22:30 5k was done with maybe 10-12 miles a week of running. I figured that if I got on a real training program I might get be able to get down to the 20’s, which is why I’d appreciate any pointers on what to do. Are there training programs on the web? Phil.

Response:

Happy, there is a lot of guidance available on the web, but your best starting point would probably be a book called the Daniels Running Formula (sorry if I got the title wrong) by an author and coach named Jack Daniels. It goes into detail on what you should do at the track, at what pace, and how often, based on your level of fitness. A good on-line source is www.kicksports.com. It’s not as good as the Daniels book, but it’s still good in helping you formulate a training plan. From what you’ve said, you’ve got a LOT of potential for faster and faster times.  Beware of trying to bite off too much and getting injured.  Other than that, get out there, formulate a training plan and race hard. Best of luck. -Streb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The truth is – we don’t know how hard you ran that 5k of yours, it could be it was an "all out" effort on your part – who knows? At the time it felt like an all out effort. But I’m interested in some pointers towards a training program. To all of you, this may sound weird, but I’ve never been on a track and haven’t much idea of what to do at a track other than run around. When I was in school there was no track, only a football team. Because I was not particularly big I wasn’t "athletic" by the standards of football players. Since the school’s interest was in football, a lot of guys like me really had no competitive sports activity. We weren’t the athletes. But since I took up running a year ago, I realize that it’s a sport in which I can participate and hold my own. Certainly not win, or come close to winning, but can hope to be in the top 25% for my age (and beat a lot of guys half my age). My 22:30 5k was done with maybe 10-12 miles a week of running. I figured that if I got on a real training program I might get be able to get down to the 20’s, which is why I’d appreciate any pointers on what to do. Are there training programs on the web? Phil.

Response:

What’s wrong with "no pain, no gain"?

Generally, where I take disagreement with it as a training philosophy is that it can lead a person to try and train through an injury. And what’s wrong with "no train, no gain"?

Nothing wrong with it at all. One can probably shave off a little off 5k time by learning to race more efficiently – such as learning to run at even pace, using a kick in the end and so on, but I am gonna side with Jenn (despite the fact she runs in sunglasses) – training is the best way to improve, all those "psychological games" – they may work and they may not work. Just train hard, smart and consistantly, and race regularly – and you will see a considerable improvement.

Whoa!!!  Wait a minute, here.  I NEVER said you could not improve through training.  All I stated was that in this case, he can probably perform better on race-day through learning to run through a higher level of discomfort.  He might even improve enough to reach his goal now. I wasn’t saying improvement through training was crap. Jenn was saying that improvement by running through higher levels of discomfort was crap. There’s a big difference, there. The truth is – we don’t know how hard you ran that 5k of yours, it could be it was an "all out" effort on your part – who knows?

And it’s also possible that he also is ALREADY doing track work.  Who knows? I just know that a 22:xx to 23:xx 5K isn’t indicative of most runners’ true VO2 max pace.  Also, that most folks, especially those who take up running later in life, tend to do 5Ks and 10Ks at somewhere around lactate threshold pace.  They simply aren’t accustomed to the level of discomfort they’d feel if they ran 5,000 meters at their potential.  That’s nobody’s fault.  It doesn’t indicate any sort of shortcoming.  It’s just the way most folks run. It REALLY hurts to run a 5K that is close to your potential, regardless of your fitness level. At the end of the 5K, was he going into anaerobic state, nearly blacking out ?  Was there ever a moment where his stride slowed just because his breathing was really hard and the running had become very uncomfortable? Let’s face it, most folks hit the point where they reach anaerobic threshold and they really, really get alarmed.  They think, "Whoa, this is too fast and hurts too much.  Better back off." Maybe the subject in question DID run this thing all-out.  I doubt it.  The vast majority of runners don’t. Oleg, unless I’m mistaken, you, in particular, are an accomplished middle distance runner.  (Don’t remember how I got that impression, but I did.) Think about how long it took you to be able to "race" and how it feels to you.  Do you honestly think most recreational 5Kers, the folks who are turning in 22 and 23 minute PRs, are pushing themselves that hard? I’m just trying to get the guy to think about running faster.  It can be done.  However, it can’t be done until you let yourself realize that it can be.

Response:

Jimmy – of course you are right too. Many people, especially those who have limited racing experience, don’t know exactly were their own limits are – and that somewhat limits their performance. I know this based on my own experience – once I start racing, the first couple of "tune-up" races may very well be off the times I CAN run, just because I don’t know where I stand at that point. Sometimes in races, and quite often in training, I know I slow down when it feels too uncomfortable, and I hate myself afterwards, cause I know I COULD keep the pace up, suffer a little and complete race/interval a little faster. So sure, some improvement may come from being able to sustain the "uncomfortable" part a bit better. But knowledge of how far one can push him/herself comes from training and racing on a regular basis. "I run to see who has the most guts, who can punish himself into exhausting pace, and then at the end, punish himself even more" – Steve Prefontaine "Learn to run when feeling the pain: then push harder." – William Sigei "Ask yourself: "Can I give more?". The answer is usually: "Yes"." -Paul Tergat Oleg

: And it’s also possible that he also is ALREADY doing track work.  Who knows? : I just know that a 22:xx to 23:xx 5K isn’t indicative of most runners’ true : VO2 max pace.  Also, that most folks, especially those who take up running : later in life, tend to do 5Ks and 10Ks at somewhere around lactate threshold : pace.  They simply aren’t accustomed to the level of discomfort they’d feel : if they ran 5,000 meters at their potential.  That’s nobody’s fault.  It : doesn’t indicate any sort of shortcoming.  It’s just the way most folks run. : It REALLY hurts to run a 5K that is close to your potential, regardless of : your fitness level. : At the end of the 5K, was he going into anaerobic state, nearly blacking out : ?  Was there ever a moment where his stride slowed just because his : breathing was really hard and the running had become very uncomfortable? : Let’s face it, most folks hit the point where they reach anaerobic threshold : and they really, really get alarmed.  They think, "Whoa, this is too fast : and hurts too much.  Better back off." : Maybe the subject in question DID run this thing all-out.  I doubt it.  The : vast majority of runners don’t. : Oleg, unless I’m mistaken, you, in particular, are an accomplished middle : distance runner.  (Don’t remember how I got that impression, but I did.) : Think about how long it took you to be able to "race" and how it feels to : you.  Do you honestly think most recreational 5Kers, the folks who are : turning in 22 and 23 minute PRs, are pushing themselves that hard? : I’m just trying to get the guy to think about running faster.  It can be : done.  However, it can’t be done until you let yourself realize that it can : be. —  Oleg

Response:

Even MORE crap to consider: If my theory is correct and you’re actually running your 5K at Lactate Threshold, instead of VO2 Max pace (which would make you pretty much like 95% of the 5K runners out there), then by lowering to VO2 Max pace, you would, indeed, be able to hit something close to 6:30s, for something close to a 20:00 5K. Keep in mind, this takes into account no difference in conditioning at all. Good Luck.  Hope some of this crap helps.

Response:

: Also, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT advocating a "no pain, no gain" approach. : Especially with training, that sort of mind-set can be counterproductive. What’s wrong with "no pain, no gain"? And what’s wrong with "no train, no gain"? One can probably shave off a little off 5k time by learning to race more efficiently – such as learning to run at even pace, using a kick in the end and so on, but I am gonna side with Jenn (despite the fact she runs in sunglasses) – training is the best way to improve, all those "psychological games" – they may work and they may not work. Just train hard, smart and consistantly, and race regularly – and you will see a considerable improvement. The truth is – we don’t know how hard you ran that 5k of yours, it could be it was an "all out" effort on your part – who knows? —  Oleg

Response:

This line of discussion reminds me of something that a guy I used to know would always say: "If you think something is true, then it is". I wonder what HIS 5k time is???? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If your mind will let you do it, I bet its possible. Frankly, that’s crap:  Johnathon Livingston Seagull, inspirational Hallmark poster style, Nike JUST DO IT, be all that you can be, Runners World ‘R US crap.

Response:

I think I’ll side with Oleg and Jenn on this one.  I know before I switched from biking to running as my primary activity I never got under 21:20 for a 5k but when I started training for my first marathon I was seldom over 21:00 and when training for my second marathon I got down to 19:37.  As far as being able to block out pain that is something I learned a long time ago.  It was a necessary skill when you were thirty miles from home and suffering severe leg crams from dehydration.  I’ve also blocked out injuries (Non running) such as a dislocated thumb, major road rash and cuts requiring ten stitches. I’ve been told by some health professionals that I must have a very high pain threshold.  I don’t know if my pain threshold is that high but I have been able to mentally cut off an area if it starts hurting too much if I couldn’t do that I never would have finished my first marathon. By the way the cut with ten stitches was running related, a fall on black ice two weeks before my first marathon split my chin open.  The ER staff knew I was a runner when they ask me if I had blacked out and I told them no at least not for more than a second or two since one of the first things I did was check my watch and the time was about right for where I was on my run. Tom

: : Also, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT advocating a "no pain, no gain" approach. : : Especially with training, that sort of mind-set can be counterproductive. : What’s wrong with "no pain, no gain"? And what’s wrong with "no train, no gain"? : One can probably shave off a little off 5k time by learning to race more efficiently – : such as learning to run at even pace, using a kick in the end and so on, but : I am gonna side with Jenn (despite the fact she runs in sunglasses) – training is : the best way to improve, all those "psychological games" – they may work and they may not : work. Just train hard, smart and consistantly, and race regularly – and you will see : a considerable improvement. : The truth is – we don’t know how hard you ran that 5k of yours, it could be it was an : "all out" effort on your part – who knows? : — :  Oleg

Response:

Correction:  "anaerobic threshold" in the following sentence should have been replaced with " VO2 Max" Let’s talk turkey, here.  First, you CAN run a 5K at anaerobic threshold pace.  You absolutely, positively, 100% for certain CAN do it.

Should have read:  "you CAN run a 5K at VO2 Max pace" Now, for reality:  most folks don’t.  They run it at lactate threshold pace. Why?

Likewise for the following sentence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Because sustaining VO2 max pace for any length of time is extremely painful.  In fact, it’s too painful for most folks.  Not from a physical standpoint, but from a mental one. If you can get past the pain, you can run faster.  It’s not only lack of ability that slows runners down or prevents them from running faster. It’s the inability to deal with the pain associated with higher speeds.  Your body isn’t your only limit.  Your reaction to pain is just as considerable a factor.

Response:

Good luck, Happy. Geez, guys come on….I really do appreciate all your advice, please don’t get riled up over the question of how to knock a couple of minutes off a 5k!!

Oh, the question didn’t rile me up.  It was Jenn’s abject ignorance that did. I’m sure you’re both right: no pain no gain, and no train, no gain.

Although Jenn obviously needs to shave her back and do some laps to burn some excess testosterone today, some of what she said has merit.  Use the track to your advantage and design a training plan that incorporates both tempo and track work. Also, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT advocating a "no pain, no gain" approach. Especially with training, that sort of mind-set can be counterproductive. I’m just letting you know that right now, at this very moment, you could race faster than you do if you could work through your pain.  That’s all. It’s your pain that’s limiting you, not your body.

Response:

One last thing to consider, Happy.  Let’s put a 20 minute 5K into perspective. High School cross country runners.  How many of them train over the Summer? Not many.  Granted, the really really good ones do.  However, generally, you can bet that about half of them will have done minimal training. How many run a 20 minute 5K (cross country, mind you) before the season is over?  The vast majority. Granted, they’ve got youthful exuberance and a lack of body-fat on their side.  However, even by the end of the season, their training isn’t accounting for all that difference.  You also see some phenomenal improvement in these runners’ race times throughout the year.  (Some of them do pretty much what you’re talking about:  go from, say a 23:00-24:00 down to 20:00 or less.) How do they do it?  Well, being young helps.  The training helps some. However, mostly, they just learn how to race.  They’re too young to be preoccupied with pain.  They push and push and push.  They see their teammates pick up a step, and they follow suit. The physical changes in them from the beginning to the end of the season are present, but generally, they just learn how to race.  That’s where most of their improvement comes from.  A high school cross country coach has nowhere near enough time to put them through a thorough conditioning program.  He just tries to do what he can with the few weeks he’s got them, and tries to get them to dig really deep. Now, if you were shooting for an 18:00-15:00 or something in that range, you start to get into physical factors that might absolutely make it impossible from a physical standpoint for you to do it.  However, a 20 minute 5K is within the reach of a larger segment of runners than folks would think.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Geez, guys come on….I really do appreciate all your advice, please don’t get riled up over the question of how to knock a couple of minutes off a 5k!! I’m sure you’re both right: no pain no gain, and no train, no gain. Regards to you both, Phil.

Response:

I’ve been running for about 18 months, on and off. My 5k PR is 22:30. Current mileage is 20-30 per week. I’d like to get to the 20 minute range. Is this possible in two months? I’m 40, male, in good shape.

I believe it is possible in 8-10 weeks, but will require some training as opposed to just running. Your best is 22:30 or 7:15 per mile. You’re seeking to remove at most  2:30 or about 45 sec. per mile or 10-12 seconds per 440 yd. Seems as though you might first "know the enemy" by running a 6:30 mile. Run one on the track or a measured course. Remember than in 8 weeks you have to do 2.1 more at that same pace. Second, perhaps add something to your workout a ‘tempo run’: a faster than normal pace over a distance of say 5 miles:  not 6:30 pace but certainly try for mid to low 7’s. Third, if you want to run 20:00 a a 440 yd pace of 97-98 seconds per quarter, you must be able to run a single quarter mile at a pace of at least (guessing here) of 86.  Try a few of those with a rest in between of say 1:30. Jennifer – you’ll run 20:00 but will have to change your screen name

Response:

Okay…. Let’s talk turkey, here.  First, you CAN run a 5K at anaerobic threshold pace.  You absolutely, positively, 100% for certain CAN do it. Now, for reality:  most folks don’t.  They run it at lactate threshold pace. Why?  Because sustaining AT pace for any length of time is extremely painful.  In fact, it’s too painful for most folks.  Not from a physical standpoint, but from a mental one. If you can get past the pain, you can run faster.  It’s not only lack of ability that slows runners down or prevents them from running faster.  It’s the inability to deal with the pain associated with higher speeds.  Your body isn’t your only limit.  Your reaction to pain is just as considerable a factor. However, to be perfectly honest, I believe your body could do it, now. The question is whether, mentally, you can do it. Chances are you could manage to swing it.  It’s a question of working through the pain you’d feel.  To do this, you’ll have to prepare yourself to run in some serious discomfort. Oh? You figure his 22:30 felt good?

Nope, but running this thing at his potential will hurt a lot worse. So, yeah, you can do it.  You could probably do it with no additional training… at least physical training, that is. If your mind will let you do it, I bet its possible. Frankly, that’s crap:  Johnathon Livingston Seagull, inspirational Hallmark poster style, Nike JUST DO IT, be all that you can be, Runners World ‘R US crap.

Well… thanks.  However, it’s NOT crap, Jenn, it’s fact.  Mental barriers will prevent runners from achieving their potential to nearly as great a degree as physical barriers.  For the average recreational runner/racer, it’s the inability to deal with pain and discomfort that’s the biggest limiting factor.  It’s not that folks CAN’T run faster, it’s that they aren’ t ready to cope with the pain they’ll endure. Examples:  how long until somebody ran a 4:00 mile?  It was even deemed to be physically impossible.  How many people have broken 4:00 since then?  How many broke it immediately after the first attempt?  It was the mental barrier that created the 4 minute mile barrier.  The physical had little to do with it. To quote Jack Daniels, the first time you break a 5:00 mile, it takes a LOT of effort.  However, generally, afterwards, you will find it a lot easier to do. Just because YOU aren’t willing to deal with the mental aspects of running doesn’t make it crap, Jenn.  There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. If someone’s doing a 22:30 they’re not going to do a 20:00 just by thinking happy thoughts.

Actually, that statement is so profusely stupid and off the mark, I don’t even know where to begin.  I did not say he was going to get there by thinking "happy thoughts".  I said he’d get there by learning how to cope with pain. If you have to resort to distorting another person’s position in order to state your case, Jenn, YOU are full of crap.

Response:

However, to be perfectly honest, I believe your body could do it, now.  The question is whether, mentally, you can do it. Chances are you could manage to swing it.  It’s a question of working through the pain you’d feel.  To do this, you’ll have to prepare yourself to run in some serious discomfort.

Oh? You figure his 22:30 felt good? So, yeah, you can do it.  You could probably do it with no additional training… at least physical training, that is. If your mind will let you do it, I bet its possible.

Frankly, that’s crap:  Johnathon Livingston Seagull, inspirational Hallmark poster style, Nike JUST DO IT, be all that you can be, Runners World ‘R US crap. If someone’s doing a 22:30 they’re not going to do a 20:00 just by thinking happy thoughts. Jennifer – always thought J Seagull should’ve found a boat windshield by chapter 2

Response:

Happy, my first inclination was to say this is a big improvement to expect. However, to be perfectly honest, I believe your body could do it, now.  The question is whether, mentally, you can do it. Chances are you could manage to swing it.  It’s a question of working through the pain you’d feel.  To do this, you’ll have to prepare yourself to run in some serious discomfort. So, yeah, you can do it.  You could probably do it with no additional training… at least physical training, that is. If your mind will let you do it, I bet its possible.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes I’ve been running for about 18 months, on and off. My 5k PR is 22:30. Current mileage is 20-30 per week. I’d like to get to the 20 minute range. Is this possible in two months? I’m 40, male, in good shape. Phil

Response: