Hi paul:

Hi Dan, I’m planning to do a marathon in March next year, with a small possibility of doing another one exactly 5 weeks later. What are my chances of being able to run the second roughly as well as the first? I run 50k mountain races about 5-6 weeks apart often.  I find that I can run the second one just as well, sometimes better, than the first one.  My base is about 75/week.  The bigger the base, the quicker the recovery, I’ve found. The trick is to go easy for 10 days.  I’ve found that I can jump right into speedwork after that without problems. Here’s what I did after the first 50k race mentioned above:

[snip] This is starting to sound like a good idea. I hope I get through the ballot for the second marathon now. Thanks for the advice. Paul

Response:

Hi paul: I’m planning to do a marathon in March next year, with a small possibility of doing another one exactly 5 weeks later. What are my chances of being able to run the second roughly as well as the first?

I run 50k mountain races about 5-6 weeks apart often.  I find that I can run the second one just as well, sometimes better, than the first one.  My base is about 75/week.  The bigger the base, the quicker the recovery, I’ve found. Here’s what I did after a recent 50k — the next one was 5 weeks away, and I was notably stronger on the next 50k.  Twelve days after the race, I ran a speed workout faster than my last one before the first race. The trick is to go easy for 10 days.  I’ve found that I can jump right into speedwork after that without problems. I’m 52;  if you’re young, you may be able to accelerate it a bit, but don’t be afraid to take it easy for at least 7 days.  When I was in my 30’s I raced a PR marathon, then did nothing but easy running for 3 weeks, no speedwork.  Then ran a very strong 20 miler and beat several Athletics West (Nike sponsored) runners. Here’s what I did after the first 50k race mentioned above: Sat: 50k race Sun:  6.5 mile hike up 2,000

In my tri club we operate a periodised training approach and do monthly time trials over fixed distances (and routes on the bike). Ideally these should be competitive to ensure 100% effort. Here’s where a club environment helps. Also the time trials should come at the end of each easy week.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… i

Response:

An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect. I am not "experienced" in what I am trying to accomplish, namely, run a marathon under 4 hours. I have a lot of experience running recreationally, that’s all.

Man, my IQ must have dropped fifty points when I wrote that thing, I’m as bad as Bush with my malapropisms.  (Regardless of your political affilitation you have to admit that he says the strangest things.)  It was my earlier run, yeah that was it.  The blood had rushed from my head. Obviously I meant _in_experienced runner. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race. Would I not want to run faster, during training?

Over time you’ll naturally run faster.  But you want to keep most(?) of your training runs LSD to develop your aerobic capacity for endurance events.  If you run faster you’ll use different metabolic pathways and you’ll get far less aerobic benefit.  Speed and tempo work is different since it’s training the muscles to work faster/harder, not for longer periods at higher loads. I remember somebody mentioning that LSD develops capillaries and mitochondria and stuff, but they may have been thinking about _Star Wars: the Horrid Prequels_.

Response:

You can use it for some things, but predicting race times isn’t one of them. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race. Would I not want to run faster, during training?

No. You want to run faster during racing. It doesn’t matter a whole lot if you run slowly during training runs, and increasing the pace of your aerobic training runs won’t necessarily make you go faster. The systems you are trying to train with easy distance runs respond well at low intensities. Push the pace and the anaerobic system picks up the difference — so you don’t get an increase in training effect, because the extra work does not place load on the fitness components that you are trying to train (and it is not intense enough to load the components that get trained with speedwork). You should do your speed work at a good pace, but day to day training runs should be at a comfortable pace. Speed work is a better predictor of race performance than training runs. On of the posters in this forum, Dan Stumpus, used to run very fast marathons (close to 6 minutes per mile) and use aerobic training runs of 8 minutes per mile. That’s like you doing your training runs at 12 minutes per mile. Even my relatively fast 7:15-7:30 minute per mile training pace is more than a minute per mile slower than my half marathon race pace. Also, if I just don’t feel like running fast on a given day, I might run with a friend at a much slower pace — 8, 9, or whatever. As long as the miles go into the diary, it’s all the same to me. Likewise, Steve Common used to run comparable times to me, yet often trained much slower (as slowly as 10 minutes per mile) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

<< Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race.  

Counterintuitive, Indeed. For speedy pace, Rapid race across the finish line, Well, that’s an age-old story. Counter, it may be, But alas, indeed, Wisdom abounds, surrounds ~ Burried deep in the interstices of time, Reflected ryhme, deflected Soul and soundings Triangulated Back through time. Baffling, yes. And sure, what a mess! Nevertheless, the key Will be found and told. Hark! What’s that I hear? Ear to ground, Turning round, Seeing some strange Shape… _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

Or you could maintain a database of all runs

that’s what I do (Access, described in earlier, but fairly recent, post).   but how do you compare a 4 mile run in the morning with a 6 mile run in the afternoon?

that’s what I don’t do As Lyndon pointed out, it’s not day-to-day progress that you monitor, but over time. Also, you probably are doing different workouts on different days – working different systems – so there’s no real reason why they should be directly comparable. Having a fixed routine that you "test" every so often, like Sam described, would be a good way to go if you have fairly constant conditions. I usually measure progress by either how much more of a regular route I can run, how few walk breaks I have to take up a hill or on a route, or how I feel after a particularly hilly or long run – or whether I can add more hills or distance to the route. I may notice that on my relatively easy hills, I can go in multiple speeds now (almost springing up the easiest) and still be below LT (used to be just *doing* the hill was barely below LT). (Actually, the fact that I can run all the hills on that one system without messing up my Achilles is *substantial* progress compared with 2 yr ago.) In prior years, I was running mostly in winter and the snow or mud conditions just varied so much from one run to the next that it was hard to judge anything. This year, we had a hot, dry summer (less field work so I could run), so the paces (as calculated later; I run by effort) are *somewhat* similar (within a few min/mile) for different types of runs. But I envision them as a scatterplot, not specific numbers. I’ve considered trying to do 6 or 12 min or similar tests, but my conditions just vary too much from one week to next to make it meaningless in most years. The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here Dot — "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." – Cave Dog

Response:

<< Having a fixed routine that you "test" every so often, like Sam described, would be a good way to go if you have fairly constant conditions. What’s a good test? For personal best? For ALL systems. Many, many thanks. My appreciation in your bank. Systems? Now a scattershot approach for me. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

snip< The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here Dot

I use my log to keep a basic record of volume, time in my case, and to stay motivated.  When I started keeping exercise logs 4 years ago my consistency went way up.  Similarly, I keep a food log with my own kind of short hand for foods and portion sizes.  The food log isn’t an accurate food count in any way, but over time it helps me make better food choices. – Tony

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip< The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here Dot I use my log to keep a basic record of volume, time in my case, and to stay motivated.  When I started keeping exercise logs 4 years ago my consistency went way up.  Similarly, I keep a food log with my own kind of short hand for foods and portion sizes.  The food log isn’t an accurate food count in any way, but over time it helps me make better food choices. – Tony

I keep a very basic log of running, walking, and biking (one program) that I mainly use to keep track of miles on my equipment, though it’s nice to see mpm times decline over time.  I have a different log for my weightlifting and a separate record for my golfing (handicapping, etc.).  Last but not least, I keep a pretty decent food log.  Even though it seems like a lot of logging, it’s only a few minutes out of my day.  Each of my logs has come in handy in various situations. BTW, the runner’s log I use is Palm based and a cool little $5 program. Jenn

Response:

pencil and paper work great.

Response:

I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…

I use my own Excel spreadsheet,  Mine starts as a periodization plan for the entire year, with training cycles, races, and every running workout figured out.  Planned rest is also included.  Then, as I go through the season, I replace what I planned with what I actually did, adjusting planned training as needed. One thing that I think hasn’t been brought out is that you shouldn’t get too caught up in day-to-day fitness changes.  Many experienced runners can tell lactate threshold, MLSS, recovery pace by feel, and if you do these on consistent courses, yes, these can tell you something, as can time trials.  For example, I have a standard warmup that includes a jog, drills, and buildups/ strides, and if something is significantly slower, it tells me to cut back the planned workload (maybe I’m getting sick, and I haven’t quite figured it out yet). But you shouldn’t obsess about these things.  Even a time trial can vary week to week due to a lot of things, such as stress, illness/health, sleep, how fast you ran your last recovery run, maybe even what you had for lunch.  If you ran your 400 session 1 second/400 slower than you ran last week, it might mean that you didn’t work as hard or didn’t get enough recovery…but it might mean that it was 5 degrees warmer than last week.  Don’t worry about such things.  Also, performance improvement is not necessarily a straight line: there can be plateaus and even dips (because you increased your training load) along the way. It’s long term improvement (over a training cycle, season, or year) that matters. Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!"  –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

Response:

It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year.  If Temperature changes throughout the year.

Sorry, I was thinking "month" and typed "year".  It depends on where you live, of course, but you might see a change of 10-15F at the same time of day over the course of a month but see a change of 30F over the course of a single day.

Response:

I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…

You could take a look at this: http://www.zdap.com/running/article.htm Paul

Response:

<< For the purposes of this discussion, fitness means race performance. Something that doesn’t translate into race performance doesn’t count. indeed, contextual definition of terms. (Aristotle! that you?) _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

<< Because that will cause you to train your "carb oxidation system", which will make Og the low carb caveman god unhappy, and he’ll hurl rocks at you from above. Don’t try to run it fast. wise, rocks hurt. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time.  A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.  

The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example).   3) compare your times.  If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.  

This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve.  But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch. And that’s it.  It’s simple, easily incorporated in your workout schedule, and provides positive reinforcement that you’re making progress.  Or early warning if there’s a problem.  Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs.

It might or might not. As Donovan points out you can use races to measure improvement in specific events, but you may go months between races and

I think it would be desirable to race more frequently. Unless you’re living in a place where races are unavailable, I don’t see much reason for a competitive runner not to race quite often. I also pointed out that you can use speed workouts, and because the intensity is higher, these are not subject to the same amount of variability as training runs. conditions will inevitably be different.  

This is also true of training runs. An interval workout on a track minimises the variation (because it’s less affected by heat than a race or steady run) Or you could maintain a database of all runs but

that would be really silly. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time.  A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.   The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example).  

This is the first that I’ve heard it could change so quickly.  I thought change was on the order of one point/year. BTW, an experienced runner can go by feel.  An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect. 3) compare your times.  If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.   This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve.  But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch.

I thought her program was for collegiate level runners.  But that doesn’t mean much since she could have easily dumbed it down for her audience. Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. It might or might not.

When would it go the other way?  N.B., I’m not refering to a change of a few seconds over a run of many miles, but perhaps something like a 5 to 10 second/mile change. I also pointed out that you can use speed workouts, and because the intensity is higher, these are not subject to the same amount of variability as training runs.

I actually found more variability in my speed workouts but that’s almost certainly because of the unfamilarity. conditions will inevitably be different.   This is also true of training runs.

It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year.  If it’s unusually warm or cold or rainy or whatever some run you don’t use it for comparison.

Response:

2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time.  A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.   The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example).   This is the first that I’ve heard it could change so quickly.  I thought change was on the order of one point/year.

It can change depending on how heavy your training is. My max heart rate has varied by as much as 10 points or so, depending on how heavy my training is at the time. BTW, an experienced runner can go by feel.  

True to some extent, but it’s not really predictive of race performance. Usually if your training runs get slower, it’s a sign that you’re struggling with the training load, and if they get faster, it either means that you’re reducing the training load, or adapting to it. They are too far from maximal to mean a whole lot. An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect.

You can use it for some things, but predicting race times isn’t one of them. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. 3) compare your times.  If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.   This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve.  But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch. I thought her program was for collegiate level runners.  But that

Then I disagree that aerobic training runs will get faster over such a short interval of time. This has not been my experience. Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. It might or might not. When would it go the other way?  

When you increase training load. N.B., I’m not refering to a change of a few seconds over a run of many miles, but perhaps something like a 5 to 10 second/mile change.

I don’t believe a 5 to 10 second per mile improvement in race times will be as easy to detect in training runs as it would in a race or an interval workout. I actually found more variability in my speed workouts but that’s almost certainly because of the unfamilarity.

If you perform the same workout twice on a track, and you do the workout correctly, they shouldn’t vary much at all. The average times for my last 4×1200m workouts vary from about 4:07 to 4:10 and most of that variation is accounted for by a monotonic downward trend. It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year.  If

Temperature changes throughout the year. it’s unusually warm or cold or rainy or whatever some run you don’t use it for comparison.

The problem is that any day of summer is unusually hot compared to any day of winter. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I am confused. Let’s say I run a 5.6 mile run on a routine basis. Let’s say that I ran it at 56 minutes before, and after some training, I can run it at 48 minutes. Would that not be an improvement?

If you get faster by over a minute per mile, even you will be able to work out that you’re getting fitter without using a spreadsheet. Why can’t I try to run as fast as to not be too uncomfortable?

Because that will cause you to train your "carb oxidation system", which will make Og the low carb caveman god unhappy, and he’ll hurl rocks at you from above. Don’t try to run it fast. Races are the best measure of progress. The next best is a particular speed workout. For example, I can use my 4×1200 track workout, because this is a workout I often come back to. Training runs are not very useful as a measure of fitness though. I agree that races are the best measure of progress, but would performance on a known run not be a decent measure of progress?

If you’re getting faster by minutes per mile, it will be plainly obvious. You won’t need a spreadsheet to work it out. To detect progress on the order of seconds per mile, you will need a maximal effort on an accurately measured course. A favourite speed workout on a track is ideal for this, as is a race. My fast speed if 7:52 mpm, measured over one mile. I thought, perhaps foolishly, that I would run at about 10% slower speed for much longer.

Depends. Mile times don’t reliably predict longer distances. My bests: 1 mile: 4:51 5 mile: 28:27 (5:41 per mile) I think I could at best do about 5:20 per mile in a good 2 mile race. (I attempted this year it and couldn’t quite do it, but it wasn’t a great race. the 5 mile and 1 mile races were.) So 10% slowdown only gets me as far as 2 miles. But there is a lot of variability in 1 mile time for a fixed 5k performance. This is less true of distances 5k through half marathon, which relaibly predict each other, because they largely depend on the same thing (aerobic fitness) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

<< Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi Cheers! Indeed. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof).

I’ve been using an idea Lorraine Moller said she uses with the people she coaches.  She calls it a "benchmark" run. 1) find some reasonable distance and course.  I decided on 6 miles since it’s about half of a typical long run and I had a dirt course with only one street crossing.  (Well twice when you count out and back.) 2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time.  A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.  (You don’t need to check it during the run, just make sure the average HR was within a point of your target.) 3) compare your times.  If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.  Sometimes you’ll have bad weeks but the overall tendency should be down. And that’s it.  It’s simple, easily incorporated in your workout schedule, and provides positive reinforcement that you’re making progress.  Or early warning if there’s a problem.  Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. As Donovan points out you can use races to measure improvement in specific events, but you may go months between races and conditions will inevitably be different.  Their benefit is that they make it easy to compare yourself to others. Or you could maintain a database of all runs but how do you compare a 4 mile run in the morning with a 6 mile run in the afternoon?

Response:

 You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness.

Isn’t this the very definition of fitness – amount of work that can be done with the same effort? N.B. I’m not saying the improvement can be translated to meaningful units, just that improvements in your training run pace    on an identical course indicates an improvement in fitness.

Response:

I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… i

I use Excel sheet I made myself. Aside from races (the ultimate measure of performance), I do frequent "field" tests.  For instance, I do a 6 minute all out run.  The farther I go, the faster I am getting.  I also use this data to set training intensities.  I also use my regular lactate threshold runs as a good check on fitness. There are numerous websites that allow free logging of training.  I just found them to be more trouble for me than they were worth.

Response:

 You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness. Isn’t this the very definition of fitness – amount of work that can be done with the same effort?

There are many problems with using training runs as a measure of performance: (1) it’s difficult to verify that "effort" is indeed constant.  If the level of effort is 100%, as in a race, then there is no guesswork. And no, a heart rate monitor isn’t in my opinion good enough to reliably and actively measure "effort". (2) performance on submaximal exercise may not reliably predict performance in a race. I’ve had good race performances even when I wasn’t doing my training runs at a very fast pace. (3) If the progress metric is training pace, then it follows that performing the training runs as quickly as possible is a training goal. There is an obvious problem with this. N.B. I’m not saying the improvement can be translated to meaningful units, just that improvements in your training run pace on an identical course indicates an improvement in fitness.

For the purposes of this discussion, fitness means race performance. Something that doesn’t translate into race performance doesn’t count. Of course if you can do the same training run a 30 seconds per mile faster and you’re more or less aerobic, that indicates an improvement in fitness. But you don’t need a spreadsheet to work that out, do you ? The big improvements in fitness will be plainly obvious, and the more incremental gains cannot be reliably measured by training runs. Therefore, using a spreadsheet to track "progress" in training runs serves little purpose other than to provide idiots with hours of amusement. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… Spreadsheet. I use it mostly to track milage across different shoes, and keep a diary. Makes sense, thanks. Do you have pre-measured mileage for your runs also?

Yep. There are a number of high and low tech ways to do this — measure it either with a GPS, SDM like the Fitsense or Nike, bike meter, mapping software (e.g. Microsoft streets and trips), or just estimate it. Tracking performance is simple enough — enter some races, and keep track of WAVA scores or some other performance index. Well, I would like to see if I can run my distances faster than before.

This subverts the purpose of your training, because you’re not supposed to be pushing the pace on your training runs. You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness. Races are the best measure of progress. The next best is a particular speed workout. For example, I can use my 4×1200 track workout, because this is a workout I often come back to. Training runs are not very useful as a measure of fitness though. Since I run different routes, it would be good to use a spreadsheet to compare and keep track of various routes.

Yep. I don’t think it’s useful to try to set a PR on every single workout, or to do exactly the same speed work each time. I agree. I want to get very used to running with a higher speed than I did at the half marathon. I will try to run as far as I can at about 8.5 minutes per mile, for some time.

Before you do that, pick up a book … any book. I think you mentioned you’d picked up the Glover book. 5k pace is not appropriate for day-to-day training runs. You can’t run fast and long. You can run fast and short (speed work, heavily carb dependent!!! trains vo2 max and running economy) or slow and long (more fat utilisation, because it’s partly metabolic cellular level training). Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…

Spreadsheet. I use it mostly to track milage across different shoes, and keep a diary. Tracking performance is simple enough — enter some races, and keep track of WAVA scores or some other performance index. I don’t think it’s useful to try to set a PR on every single workout, or to do exactly the same speed work each time. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I suggest a little experience to get rid of your shyness. It’s really fun trip to do and it can really boost your PR (personal relationship) ability. I hope your gonna try it and give me some feed back on how it went. Here the go : – Go to a city close to you but where you never went. (Without any map)      Where do I go you ask me? That is the fun part of it, you don’t really know – Stop in the first gaz station and ask the cashier where you can find a nice coffee. – Go there with the direction he/she gave you. – Once you get there. Get a coffee or something and spot someone alone.      Preferably someone who hasn’t finished (You can also spot a group of 2 or 3) – Walk to him/her or them, just say Hi! I am alone and looking to chat may I sit with you? – It will probably work, if it don’t work don’t worry and just take some news paper and read. – If it work you can talk of a lots of topics. Try to learn whats fun in this city etc… – This is the last step : Enjoy now the new social extroverted person youve became. Don’t ever tell you it’s ridiculous. Just get in your car and go!!!! Without thinking. You should try the fun places youve learned about too. Make some fun!!! JP

Response:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:32:26 GMT, RK <r…@houston.rr.com> wrote:

<snip> I suppose I should post an update. (I meant to do this earlier.) Well, the thing started at 4:30, and I got there about 5 minutes later. Hardly anyone had shown up yet. Since this is after work, most people ended up stopping by a store or restaurant to get some food to bring. So that was cool, since I was one of the few who actually "made" something. Almost everyone brought some kind of dip with chips. The guy who was hosting the party had made an amazing spinach dip. Anyway, it wasn’t that much fun, but it wasn’t that bad, either. The food was good. I barely spoke through the whole thing. :-/ One problem is that a lot of former employees were there spending time reminiscing, and I had no clue what they were talking about since they were before my time. One of the former employees brought his baby. Ohhh … so adorable. One of my co-workers has a baby around the same age. Too bad he didn’t bring her as well — then we would have had *two* babies and it would have been so fun watching them interact. The guy who hosted the party had a really neat house. He’s really into woodwork and has built up a nice deck with walls out back. His wife goes to a lot of antique auctions, etc. So the house and backyard are filled with weird old stuff — old machines, clocks, statues, etc. So when I couldn’t find anyone to talk to, I’d walk around looking at the stuff. I was pretty exhausted by the end of it (about 3 hours later), although I hadn’t really done anything. Social events are *so* draining. Well, it’s over (and has been for a few weeks, lol). Thanks to those who tried to help. — RK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RK wrote: > On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:32:26 GMT, RK <r…@houston.rr.com> wrote: > <snip> > I suppose I should post an update. (I meant to do this earlier.) > Well, the thing started at 4:30, and I got there about 5 minutes > later. Hardly anyone had shown up yet. Since this is after work, most > people ended up stopping by a store or restaurant to get some food to > bring. So that was cool, since I was one of the few who actually > "made" something. Almost everyone brought some kind of dip with chips. > The guy who was hosting the party had made an amazing spinach dip. > Anyway, it wasn’t that much fun, but it wasn’t that bad, either. The > food was good. I barely spoke through the whole thing. :-/ One problem > is that a lot of former employees were there spending time > reminiscing, and I had no clue what they were talking about since they > were before my time. One of the former employees brought his baby. > Ohhh … so adorable. One of my co-workers has a baby around the same > age. Too bad he didn’t bring her as well — then we would have had > *two* babies and it would have been so fun watching them interact. > The guy who hosted the party had a really neat house. He’s really into > woodwork and has built up a nice deck with walls out back. His wife > goes to a lot of antique auctions, etc. So the house and backyard are > filled with weird old stuff — old machines, clocks, statues, etc. So > when I couldn’t find anyone to talk to, I’d walk around looking at the > stuff. > I was pretty exhausted by the end of it (about 3 hours later), > although I hadn’t really done anything. Social events are *so* > draining. > Well, it’s over (and has been for a few weeks, lol). Thanks to those > who tried to help. > — RK

         Glad that it wasn’t that bad August Pamplona — The waterfall in Java is not wet. – omegazero2003 on m.f.w. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

Response:

RK wrote: > But damn, I hate parties, and I haven’t been to anything resembling > one for several years. Going out to a restaurant is different, because > you have your chair and can stick to it the entire time. But this is a > party at someone’s *house*, which means I’ll have to walk up to groups > of people and stuff. Ugh.

Yup, I can sympathize.  I dislike the amorphous nature of such parties myself.  I mean, are you just supposed to walk up to people and… do what?  Just start up random conversations? My unease generally correlates with how important it is for me to make a reasonably good impression on the other people (i.e., whether they will think I have the personality of a rock for sitting around, being silent most of the evening).  When I don’t care about the impression I’ll make, I have no problem with these parties (or rather, I find them to be an annoying burden, but not anxiety-producing in any real way).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RK wrote: > Oh damn. > One of the ladies I work with is retiring, and they’re having a > retirement party for her tomorrow evening. I already said I would go, > so I can’t back out. Plus, I never said goodbye and good luck and all > that good stuff to her on Wednesday (my last workday of the week, > because I work part-time so I can finish my thesis), so I really > should go. And I suppose it’s "good for me" to do things like this, > too. > But damn, I hate parties, and I haven’t been to anything resembling > one for several years. Going out to a restaurant is different, because > you have your chair and can stick to it the entire time. But this is a > party at someone’s *house*, which means I’ll have to walk up to groups > of people and stuff. Ugh. > I don’t think people will be bringing their kids, either. Having kids > running around makes everything seem more relaxed, not to mention > entertaining. I don’t really like adults-only parties. I haven’t been > to very many. > And here’s another thing — there’s some confusion as to whether or > not it’s a potluck, and I sent an e-mail about it yesterday, but I > have yet to get any additional info. I _need_ to know exactly what’s > going on. Not knowing details until the last minute just makes the > anxiety worse. > I should be working on my thesis right now, but I can’t concentrate. > Guess I’ll hang out online for a while. > Damn damn damn. > *deep breath* > Damn. > — RK

Well you have your thesis as an excuse.. you can go but leave early if you’re not not confortable staying there, at least you’ll have time to say goodbye. If you don’t get any replays to that email just bring something edible for the coworker that’s leaving. Relax

Response:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:40:59 -0400, "Trim Plus Expert" <trimp…@bellnet.ca> wrote: >Whoa man!!! >Take it easy!!! Have you ever tought of what in this makes you so nervous. >Fear of beign rejected? Why would that happen. Not knowing what to do?

Yes, the latter is a big part of it. Also, any sort of uncertainty makes me nervous — I have never been to this house before, so that makes me nervous (what if I trouble finding it). I didn’t know what to do about food (but I do now), so that made me nervous. Etc. >It’s >easy just relax smile and drink something.

Yes, I have to remember to smile. I always forget that. Thanks for the reminder. >Think that you are in a >restaurant and find someone you know and speak with him/her.

The problem is that people are usually talking in groups, so I would have to walk up to a *group* and interrupt their conversation. Also, I don’t always have something to say. >Nothing more >nothing less. Nothing bad is going to happen to you. Are you shy to go to >your job?

Nope. >The same poeple is going to be there so do as usual.

You mean, work? >speak with >those you know walk around like busy and that’s all!!!! >I hope it helps.

Thanks. I think it’ll be OK once I get there. I mean, I may or may not enjoy myself, but the anxiety should go down. — RK

Response:

On 14 Apr 2005 12:53:57 -0700, "Virgo Cluster" <gamma_n…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->RK wrote: >> Oh damn. >> One of the ladies I work with is retiring, and they’re having >> a retirement party for her tomorrow evening. I already said >> I would go, so I can’t back out. Plus, I never said goodbye >> and good luck and all that good stuff to her on Wednesday >> (my last workday of the week, because I work part-time so >> I can finish my thesis), so I really should go. And I suppose >> it’s "good for me" to do things like this, too. >> But damn, I hate parties, and I haven’t been to anything >> resembling one for several years. Going out to a restaurant >> is different, because you have your chair and can stick to >> it the entire time. But this is a party at someone’s *house*, >> which means I’ll have to walk up to groups of people and >> stuff. Ugh. >> I don’t think people will be bringing their kids, either. >> Having kids running around makes everything seem more relaxed, >> not to mention entertaining. I don’t really like adults-only >> parties. I haven’t been to very many. >> And here’s another thing — there’s some confusion as to whether >> or not it’s a potluck, and I sent an e-mail about it yesterday, >> but I have yet to get any additional info. I _need_ to know >> exactly what’s going on. Not knowing details until the last >> minute just makes the anxiety worse. >> I should be working on my thesis right now, but I can’t >> concentrate. Guess I’ll hang out online for a while. >> Damn damn damn. >> *deep breath*1 >> Damn. >It’s kind of short notice, but I wonder if SS would be >interested in going? You’d have him to help you get though >it, he might get some useful job networking out of it, >and you can get the rumor mills at work buzzing about you. >(Guys who might have thought of you as a sister might >start looking at you in a new light.)

Uhh …. no. That would just make it worse. You want me to draw attention to myself like that? And rumors — eek! No thank you! As for guys looking at me "in a new light" … I hope not, considering that most of them are married. >Think about it, huh?

Well, see, I *tried* to think about it, but then my brain threatened to explode, so I stopped. Self-preservation and all, you know. >And if SS winds up going, make sure >you post all the details here!

Thanks for trying to help, Virgo. I’m better now. — RK

Response:

On 14 Apr 2005 16:25:13 -0700, jizzlob…@intergate.com wrote: >RK wrote: >> Oh damn. >> One of the ladies I work with is retiring, and they’re having a >> retirement party for her tomorrow evening. I already said I would go, >> so I can’t back out. Plus, I never said goodbye and good luck and all >> that good stuff to her on Wednesday (my last workday of the week, >> because I work part-time so I can finish my thesis), so I really >> should go. And I suppose it’s "good for me" to do things like this, >> too. >I feel your pain, I honestly do. But it might help to remember that >*ITS NOT ABOUT YOU, ITS ABOUT HER*

Indeed it is. Thanks! — RK

Response:

On 14 Apr 2005 20:53:24 -0700, "KC Carter" <newmediapr…@yahoo.com> wrote: <snip> >It sounds like a relatively safe environment.

Yeah, I think it’ll be fine once I’m there. This is the sort of thing that I tend to get more anxious about before than during. >Bring some chocolate chip >cookies. If it’s pot luck, you brought dessert. If not, it’s a gift for >her.

I heard back from the folks planning this thing. It is a potluck after all. The theme is Tex-Mex. I don’t really cook, so I think I’ll make some 7-layer dip. I was originally going to go with guacamole, because, well, because that’s my thing, but that is dependent on finding good fruit, which I’m not sure I can do on this short notice. — RK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RK wrote: > On 14 Apr 2005 20:53:24 -0700, "KC Carter" <newmediapr…@yahoo.com> > wrote: > <snip> > >It sounds like a relatively safe environment. > Yeah, I think it’ll be fine once I’m there. This is the sort of thing > that I tend to get more anxious about before than during. > >Bring some chocolate chip > >cookies. If it’s pot luck, you brought dessert. If not, it’s a gift for > >her. > I heard back from the folks planning this thing. It is a potluck after > all. The theme is Tex-Mex. I don’t really cook, so I think I’ll make > some 7-layer dip. I was originally going to go with guacamole, > because, well, because that’s my thing, but that is dependent on > finding good fruit, which I’m not sure I can do on this short notice. > — RK

That gives you something to focus on before you go, and also a point of interest to work from once you’re there. Try to enjoy your time there instead of putting it into the context of trying to overcome your shyness. KC

Response:

On 14 Apr 2005 21:30:43 -0700, "Gray Loser" <gray_lo…@hotmail.com> wrote: >RK wrote: >> But damn, I hate parties, and I haven’t been to anything resembling >> one for several years. Going out to a restaurant is different, >because >> you have your chair and can stick to it the entire time. But this is >a >> party at someone’s *house*, which means I’ll have to walk up to >groups >> of people and stuff. Ugh. >Yup, I can sympathize.  I dislike the amorphous nature of such parties >myself.  I mean, are you just supposed to walk up to people and… do >what?  Just start up random conversations?

At least if they’re by themselves, and not talking already, you can say "hi, how are you" or whatever, but usually, they’re already in groups engaged in conversation. In that case, you either have to – *gasp* – interrupt, or you can just walk up and stand next to the group. In the latter case, if you can’t find something of your own to contribute, it can get very awkward, not to mention tiring, after a while. >My unease generally correlates with how important it is for me to make >a reasonably good impression on the other people (i.e., whether they >will think I have the personality of a rock for sitting around, being >silent most of the evening).  When I don’t care about the impression >I’ll make, I have no problem with these parties (or rather, I find them >to be an annoying burden, but not anxiety-producing in any real way).

Well, these people know me well enough to not expect much talk from me. Plus, I did clue a few people in on the fact that I wasn’t comfortable with parties over the course of this week. I find that it helps if people already know. The same was true when I had to give presentations for school. If I let some people beforehand know I was nervous, I’d feel better. — RK

Response:

On 14 Apr 2005 21:58:54 -0700, "Xile" <cos…@marihuana.ro> wrote: <snip> >Well you have your thesis as an excuse.. you can go but leave early if >you’re not not confortable staying there, at least you’ll have time to >say goodbye.

That’s another thing. Sometimes I don’t quite know how to leave a social event. Most people will go around and wave and loudly say bye to everyone, but I have trouble with that. But just slipping out doesn’t seem quite appropriate, either, besides, people will notice that, too. >If you don’t get any replays to that email just bring >something edible for the coworker that’s leaving.

I got a reply (see previous responses). >Relax

I’ll try. — RK

Response:

Oh damn. One of the ladies I work with is retiring, and they’re having a retirement party for her tomorrow evening. I already said I would go, so I can’t back out. Plus, I never said goodbye and good luck and all that good stuff to her on Wednesday (my last workday of the week, because I work part-time so I can finish my thesis), so I really should go. And I suppose it’s "good for me" to do things like this, too. But damn, I hate parties, and I haven’t been to anything resembling one for several years. Going out to a restaurant is different, because you have your chair and can stick to it the entire time. But this is a party at someone’s *house*, which means I’ll have to walk up to groups of people and stuff. Ugh. I don’t think people will be bringing their kids, either. Having kids running around makes everything seem more relaxed, not to mention entertaining. I don’t really like adults-only parties. I haven’t been to very many. And here’s another thing — there’s some confusion as to whether or not it’s a potluck, and I sent an e-mail about it yesterday, but I have yet to get any additional info. I _need_ to know exactly what’s going on. Not knowing details until the last minute just makes the anxiety worse. I should be working on my thesis right now, but I can’t concentrate. Guess I’ll hang out online for a while. Damn damn damn. *deep breath* Damn. — RK

Response:

Whoa man!!! Take it easy!!! Have you ever tought of what in this makes you so nervous. Fear of beign rejected? Why would that happen. Not knowing what to do? It’s easy just relax smile and drink something. Think that you are in a restaurant and find someone you know and speak with him/her. Nothing more nothing less. Nothing bad is going to happen to you. Are you shy to go to your job? The same poeple is going to be there so do as usual. speak with those you know walk around like busy and that’s all!!!! I hope it helps. JP

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RK wrote: > Oh damn. > One of the ladies I work with is retiring, and they’re having > a retirement party for her tomorrow evening. I already said > I would go, so I can’t back out. Plus, I never said goodbye > and good luck and all that good stuff to her on Wednesday > (my last workday of the week, because I work part-time so > I can finish my thesis), so I really should go. And I suppose > it’s "good for me" to do things like this, too. > But damn, I hate parties, and I haven’t been to anything > resembling one for several years. Going out to a restaurant > is different, because you have your chair and can stick to > it the entire time. But this is a party at someone’s *house*, > which means I’ll have to walk up to groups of people and > stuff. Ugh. > I don’t think people will be bringing their kids, either. > Having kids running around makes everything seem more relaxed, > not to mention entertaining. I don’t really like adults-only > parties. I haven’t been to very many. > And here’s another thing — there’s some confusion as to whether > or not it’s a potluck, and I sent an e-mail about it yesterday, > but I have yet to get any additional info. I _need_ to know > exactly what’s going on. Not knowing details until the last > minute just makes the anxiety worse. > I should be working on my thesis right now, but I can’t > concentrate. Guess I’ll hang out online for a while. > Damn damn damn. > *deep breath*1 > Damn.

It’s kind of short notice, but I wonder if SS would be interested in going? You’d have him to help you get though it, he might get some useful job networking out of it, and you can get the rumor mills at work buzzing about you. (Guys who might have thought of you as a sister might start looking at you in a new light.) Think about it, huh? And if SS winds up going, make sure you post all the details here! Virgo Cluster . "Stupid Education in the U.S.A. .. .. "Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach." Thus goes the .. the old saying. We take exception to this, as there are many .. fine teachers and other educators out there who are certainly .. doing a great deal — and a great deal of good. .. Of course, there’s a flip side to this … .. .. Facts from Stupid Textbooks; or; What You Learned in .. High School Was Very Probably Wrong .. .. A recent high school textbook devoted only six lines to .. the illustrious father of our country (George Washington, .. in case you’re wondering) but six and a half _pages_ to .. Marilyn Monroe, who of course needs no introduction. .. Another recent textbook has a math problem that begins .. with a sneaker commercial: "Will is saving his allowance .. to buy a pair of Nike (TM) shoes that cost $68.25. If .. Will is making $3.25 a week …" .. .. With low standards like this, it’s no wonder many modern .. textbooks are also filled with typos, misleading statements, .. and just plain errors. Do the authors care? At least one .. doesn’t. One of the authors of Houghton Mifflin’s "History .. of the United States" said he didn’t know that there were .. accuracy problems in his book. No wonder — he didn’t even .. try to see a final manuscript. "For me to read the book and .. check it for factual accuracy simply makes no sense", the .. concerned teacher said. .. .. No sense? Here’s a collection of "facts" as found in various .. textbooks that are or were in print in the 1990’s or early .. 2000’s. They’ve been culled from various angry articles, .. reviews, or e-mails; in some cases, the "facts" have been .. somewhat condensed, but it was all what was reported in the .. press — it’s all true, and that’s a fact, not a "fact". .. .. "Fact" 9 .. .. Napoleon’s greatest victory was at Waterloo. .. .. The True Fact: Close, but not quite. Yes, Napoleon was .. _at_ Waterloo, and yes, it was his greatest something, .. but it was his greatest _defeat_. By modern standards, .. that should rate at least a C+, with two out of three .. correct." .. << Kathryn Petras and Ross Petras, "Unusually Stupid .. Americans: A Compendium of All-American Stupidity", .. Villard Books, 2003, pp. 10-11 & 13 >>

Response:

RK wrote: > Oh damn. > One of the ladies I work with is retiring, and they’re having a > retirement party for her tomorrow evening. I already said I would go, > so I can’t back out. Plus, I never said goodbye and good luck and all > that good stuff to her on Wednesday (my last workday of the week, > because I work part-time so I can finish my thesis), so I really > should go. And I suppose it’s "good for me" to do things like this, > too.

I feel your pain, I honestly do. But it might help to remember that *ITS NOT ABOUT YOU, ITS ABOUT HER*

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RK wrote: > Oh damn. > One of the ladies I work with is retiring, and they’re having a > retirement party for her tomorrow evening. I already said I would go, > so I can’t back out. Plus, I never said goodbye and good luck and all > that good stuff to her on Wednesday (my last workday of the week, > because I work part-time so I can finish my thesis), so I really > should go. And I suppose it’s "good for me" to do things like this, > too. > But damn, I hate parties, and I haven’t been to anything resembling > one for several years. Going out to a restaurant is different, because > you have your chair and can stick to it the entire time. But this is a > party at someone’s *house*, which means I’ll have to walk up to groups > of people and stuff. Ugh. > I don’t think people will be bringing their kids, either. Having kids > running around makes everything seem more relaxed, not to mention > entertaining. I don’t really like adults-only parties. I haven’t been > to very many. > And here’s another thing — there’s some confusion as to whether or > not it’s a potluck, and I sent an e-mail about it yesterday, but I > have yet to get any additional info. I _need_ to know exactly what’s > going on. Not knowing details until the last minute just makes the > anxiety worse. > I should be working on my thesis right now, but I can’t concentrate. > Guess I’ll hang out online for a while. > Damn damn damn. > *deep breath* > Damn. > — RK

It sounds like a relatively safe environment. Bring some chocolate chip cookies. If it’s pot luck, you brought dessert. If not, it’s a gift for her. KC

Response:

The 10k is a week *after* the marathon.

Oops <blushing "Billy Beetroot" my mistake. So are there any handy marathons two weeks after the 10k?

Response:

OTOH if you choose to stick to the Giralda Farms 10K, you could still "choose another marathon" – there must be one within a convenient and affordable distance; La Rochelle, France, probably isn

<snip> > OK, let me be the first to chime in on the other heated debate topic.  I > personally think that hitting as discipline is wrong.  "Discipline" comes from > "disciple" which means "to teach".  I don’t think hitting teaches a kid > anything except that a.) their caregiver has just totally lost control, and b.) > their caregiver is bigger and stronger and can and will inflict physical pain > if behavior is not up to their standards, and c.) if you don’t get caught, you > don’t get hit.

Not that I didn’t spank my two daughters a few times (and I mean a very few times) when they were growing up, but I just can’t imagine myself doing that now.  I’m not the person now, that I was then.  I don’t like seeing it and I sure won’t be doing it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think suspending privileges teaches discipline better since that’s the way > the world works.  If you drive recklessly you pay a fine or lose your driving > privileges, if you don’t do your work you lose your job, if you do things to > anger your friends you may lose their friendship, etc., etc.  On the other > hand, in any of those situations if you started hitting people then it’s called > assault and battery.  Why should that particular standard be any different for > kids?  Better to take away privileges, favorite toys, or ground them for a > while. It’s not only closer to the way the world works but it also provides > some time to think about why they have to earn back the privilege or toy they > are currently without. > Again, it’s a heated debate topic and not everyone agrees.

I agree.  I’m the queen of grounding.  I have two teenagers who’ll back me up on that one! I can come up with some good ones too.  For instance, when my oldest slammed a door, because she was angry that she didn’t get her way, I made her open and close the door softly, fifty times in a row.  By the time she was done, she was smiling.  It didn’t hurt her and she learned a lesson.  She hasn’t slammed a door since.  :-) Suzanne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> -Kerri

Response:

> >He knows he a hard person; he’s admitted it to my girls. > That’s definitely something he’s doing right, that he can admit that not only > to you but also to the girls directly.

He’s a good guy.  He *is* trying. And I’m not perfect either! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >He wants to do what’s right.  If it means stepping aside and letting me > >handle 100% of the discipline, then that’s what he wants to do.  But – I do > >worry about how it’ll make him feel.  I don’t want to emasculate him.  I > >want him to be their stepfather, along with all the responsibilities that > >come along with it.  I just don’t want any of it at my daughters expense. > OK, I’m just going to second Sheila’s opinion on the above issue.  If you want > 100% of the discipline decisions then you can not expect him to shoulder any > other parental responsibilities at all.  That’s trying to have it both ways, > and is setting him up to end up resenting you and your children.  An > arrangement like that will eat away at your relationship until it eventually > kills the relationship entirely.

I agree.  Her comments had a big impact on me. Suzanne

Response:

> >Not that I didn’t spank my two daughters a few times (and I mean a very few > >times) when they were growing up, but I just can’t imagine myself doing that > >now.  I’m not the person now, that I was then.  I don’t like seeing it and I > >sure won’t be doing it. > I’m just back from a small trip, so I got a bit behind on this thread. I’ll > just weigh in briefly on this topic.

Welcome back! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t believe in physical corrections, for kids of any age, under any > circumstances.  I have never hit my kids.  So, when I read that your DH > corrected the kids more harshly, I took that to mean either by using harsher > words than you would have ("Hey!  I’ve told you a million times not to leave > towels on the floor!  Get with the program here!" vs. "Honey…. I’d really, > really like it if you wouldn’t leave towels on the floor…. okay?")  OR by > wanting to use negative consequences when you wanted to only reward positive > behavior (grounding vs. promising rewards for future good behavior). Physical > punishment was so outside my own frame of reference, I didn’t even think about > it.

Oh, he would never spank my children.  At their age, I don’t think it would even enter his mind.  His own daughter, yes.  She’s six and I think he sees it as him forming her to be a good kid.  She is different around him, than she is her BM.  She pitches huge fits for her, and never for my DH.  I’m sorry though – I don’t think fear is a good thing, for any reason, or for any outcome. He uses words with my two, and it’s not so much that they sound harsh, but there also just rude.  For instance, I have a problem with "none of  your business".  I just hate it!  I think there are more polite ways to get that point across, but he uses it with my kids. We just got back from a trip and he was talking (in front of my daughter) about how much it had cost us, for just a camping trip.  My daughter (14 yo) asked how much it had cost.  My daughter couldn’t care less about finances. She was just trying to pipe in on the conversation.  She hadn’t gone on the trip and had no clue.  He instantly to her it was none of her business.  She was humiliated and ran out of our room, to her own.  I just looked at him and asked him why he felt it was necessary to be so harsh?  Why not say, "more than we expected", or "enough to not want to discuss it".  I told him if he didn’t want anyone knowing about our finances, then he should have been talking to me in private.  IMO, if you talk about things in public (like in here), you’d better be prepared for others who are listening to try to enter the conversation. It may seem like a small thing to anyone reading my post, but it made the wedge even wider between the two of them.  I explained my stance on that sentence and while he may use it directed at others, I don’t think he’ll do it again to my daughters.  He did go in, without any prodding from me at all, and apologize to her, almost immediately.  But – the other day, he was discussing something with me, and my DD made a comment and he shut her down again.  I can’t remember the exact comment and to be honest, he kinda let it trail off when he looked back at me, but it was on the lines of, "This is a conversation that doesn’t involve you, butt out." Sometimes I find myself tensing up when he’s in the room with my daughters, because I’m afraid they’ll say something, to cause him to be rude to them. I hate that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *Anyone* hitting my kids — husband, grandparent, babysitter, or myself — > would be unacceptable to me, so this would be a no-brainer for me.   I don’t > know how to really say this…. I’ve not gotten enough sleep the last few days, > and I ingested caffeine only about 5 minutes ago.  Basically, I’d suggest to > you that you might want to think through your position on corporal punishment > altogether.  Why would it be okay for you to hit them, and not for him? If > they were younger (five or six) would you spank them?  How would you feel if he > did it?  What if he were the biological father?  Maybe asking yourself these > question will lead you to clarify exactly what is going on in your head with > regard to this issue.

There really isn’t any issue involving corporal punishment, other than what he does to his own daughter.  He’s told me to spank her if she misbehaves, and I’ve told him under NO circumstances will I be doing so.  He’s like, "Well, okay, don’t come crying to me when she acts up then."  No problem!  I managed to raise two very well-behaved daughters on my own, without resorting to it.  I can think of a few times only, when I ever laid hands on my daughters and it’s not that I had to keep myself from spanking at other times, it’s just that it doesn’t enter my mind.  And yes, he’s been told that too. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sheila

Response:

Suzanne wrote: >Oh, I’ll take that one step further!  I think pre-marital counseling should >be mandatory!  We’re actually batting around the idea of going anyway.  We >figure it can’t hurt and who knows, we might learn a thing or two.

I think a little intervention with a third person who is a neutral party may be a good idea.  It sounds like both of you are at a place (in your heads) where you are open to feedback and looking at things from a different perspective. That would may things OH SO MUCH EASIER than most people who walk into therapists offices!  ;-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >The problem is, that when he disciplines, his words come out sounding >> >harsher than he intends. >> Generally, I’ve found this to be a male trait (more than female).  My DH >does a >> bit of that too.  Then again, as he’s pointed out to me, I think I may >just >> **notice** it more coming from him.  He’s pointed out a time or two when >I’ve >> said stuff that I would have "pinged" him for (like you, in private — >NEVER in >> front of the kids). >My husband may read these posts and I’m going to be 100% honest.  Let me >give you a little background about how he was raised.  It has EVERYTHING to >do with who he is today.

<snip details of hubby’s background> >I think we tend to parent, the way we were parented.  Or to an extent >anyway.  Some of his main issues, involve money and responsibility.  Not >that those aren’t some important issues, but he expects my children to >follow his values.  You just can’t walk into someone’s life and expect them >to snap to it like that.  It’s a collision waiting to happen.  But again, >he’s a good man – just a little stern in his beliefs.  None of them are >wrong, just very rigid.

<smile>  I, too, came from a poor pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps kind of background.  In addition, mine was also abusive, in several different ways. Some of the things in my history I’ve made it a point not to repeat.  As I mentioned in the other post, I don’t hit my kids.  Period.  OTOH, there are aspects of my background — like developing a strong work ethic and learning responsibility — that I think have served me well over the years. Of course, he shouldn’t *expect* you to change your values, and adopt his just because you married him (just as I don’t expect him to change his just because he married you).  Talking about things, and trying to see things from a different perspective, though, is entirely okay.  ;-) <snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->No, there are just times where he won’t compromise.  He’ll drop it, but you >know he thinks what parental decision you made, was wrong.  For instance, my >oldest daughter drives a car that I purchased.  Of course, I have to carry >her insurance and I supply a cell phone for her too.  She works about 30 >hours a week at a local grocery store, bringing home about $400 a month. >She’s very responsible, has never gotten into any type of trouble and is >paying her own way through college, with loans that she went and got on her >own.  She pays us $200 a month, which almost covers her insurance.  She pays >for her own clothes too, for the most part.  Well, since he had to pay for >everything when he was growing up, he thinks she should too.  He wants her >to pay for her car (which was already in her life before he was), her >insurance, plus take in her cell phone. >I think she’s under enough pressure as it is.  I want her to pass college. >When her father and I divorced, there was a major income shift.  I may not >be paying for her college, but I’m contributing $350 a month for other >expenses.  He wants it to stop, no questions asked.  He wants things to >change, that were already in place when he met me.  He’s resigned himself to >that fact that they’re going to stay the way they are, until I see how well >she handles college, but if he had his way, she’d be working three jobs, >attending college and scrubbing the dorm floors during sleep hours.

There is a wide range of what people believe parents *should* do for adult children.  My own belief is that adults are adults.  Parents don’t *owe* them a college education.  Parents don’t *owe* them them the right to support. However, I think it is fine and dandy if the parents *want* to, especially if the kid is doing most of the work toward getting to a goal (I don’t think it is a good idea for parents to do it, even if they want to, for a kid who is just goofing off and playing video game all day.  I think that actually does a disservice to the "kid".)  I also think that gratitude plays a role in this.  I wouldn’t do it for a kid who was working hard, but had the attitude that I owed it to them.   Personally, on the surface,  it sounds like what you are doing is great.  She is paying her way through college.  She is making some financial contribution to household.  You are providing a few nicities.  So, I’m wondering… is the gratitude component missing, and that what he is bristling about?  Is your daughter real clear that you are doing what you are doing because you are proud of what she is doing and want to help her reach her goal, and not because you "should"?  If she isn’t, and you could somehow help her to understand, and express that, it might go a long way toward making your DH feel better about it — it would for me.   Most of us hard-scrapple people don’t resent helping people out… but we do resent it being suggested that they are *entitled* to be helped out, when we don’t think they are!  ;-) <snip, including part about corporal punishment, which I addressed in the other post> >I just feel like a good, solid, loving relationship needs to be in place, >before you can dole out discipline.  Otherwise, I think you lose respect, >before you’ve even had the chance to earn it.

I think that depends on exactly what you are talking about.  I think that kids can (and should) respect the *position* immediately.  Even with older kids, I still expect some of that — just like I would expect them to respect the authority of a teacher at school, as an adult whose position defines them as having control over their behavior.  I think it is a good lesson in real life — I am respectful to my boss, even if I don’t like him as a person, because I respect the position he holds.   However, respect isn’t the only goal in the family, liking one another is a good thing too!  With younger kids, it is generally easier, I think.  Unless they’ve been coached by someone, they are pretty open to liking adults who treat them kindly.  Older kids/teens can be harder.  They are more likely to have proprietary feelings over their parents and their space.  My own SDs didn’t like the *idea* of their father having a girlfriend — even before he had one — and their mother helped that along by referring to me as "The Bitch" before she’d ever seen me, talked to me, or I had had any interaction with any of them.  Needless to say, getting them to like me was an uphill battle, and only recently has been successful (7-8 years later).  But, you see, they didn’t LIVE with us, so I didn’t have the same issues you do, where you have to deal with one another on a day-to-day basis.   Given my own circumstances (where there was incredible animosity toward the whole CONCEPT of "dad’s wife) I wouldn’t have married my DH if he’d become the custodial parent. Not because I couldn’t have disciplined — I would have, because I won’t live in a house with kids that I have no authority over — but because I wouldn’t want to live in a house with conflict all the time.   I guess I see respect, discipline, and getting along as related, but separate issues. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Again, as I said before, I think either way can be successful (my >situation >> certainly is), depending on the participants.  My kids just know that my >DH and >> I are a unit.  There isn’t an expectation that they can say something to >one of >> us, without the other having the capability for input, because we’ve never >led >> them to believe that that expectation has any validity.  I think that is >> incredibly important.  Whichever way you two decide to deal with it, I >think >> you need to be consistent and give very clear messages to the kids.  If >you >> give mixed messages, I think you are majorly setting yourself up for >problems. >I agree.  How long have you been married and what are your children’s ages?

DH and I have been together over 8 years.  My kids are now fourteen and almost fifteen.  That situation has worked out very well, because of their ages when we got together and (I believe) because we have consistently maintained that he and I are the parenting unit, and they need to respond to us as such — and because *we* respond consistently, supporting one another, even if we don’t always agree at the moment (yes, we talk about it later).  But, my kids have never had an inkling that they could play us against one another, and so, even as we reached that critical young teen age, there hasn’t been any of that kind of behavior on their part.   <snip> >> Eh, no problem.  I’ll give you my opinion (as will others) and you can >take >> what you think will work, and leave the rest behind.  In any case, I hope >you >> aren’t offended… I’m just telling you how I see things. >I’m not at all offended.  It takes a lot to offend me!  I know when people >are trying to help, and I’m pretty good at knowing when people are stiring >up trouble.  You’re the former, for sure.  There are a few people in this NG >who know me from another one.  They can tell you how I handled it when I >thought I was getting the latter.  Not one of my better moments, but I’m an >honest, genuine person and I admire the same in other people.  My skin is >pretty thick.  :-)

The topic of this ng is, necessarily, a volatile one.  People feel strongly about the issues involved: marriage, family, children.  It is really easy, I think, to get your feelings hurt when things are so close to your heart. That’s why I think it is a … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -><snip> >> OK, let me be the first to chime in on the other heated debate topic.  I >> personally think that hitting as discipline is wrong.  "Discipline" comes >from >> "disciple" which means "to teach".  I don’t think hitting teaches a kid >> anything except that a.) their caregiver has just totally lost control, >and b.) >> their caregiver is bigger and stronger and can and will inflict physical >pain >> if behavior is not up to their standards, and c.) if you don’t get caught, >you >> don’t get hit. >Not that I didn’t spank my two daughters a few times (and I mean a very few >times) when they were growing up, but I just can’t imagine myself doing that >now.  I’m not the person now, that I was then.  I don’t like seeing it and I >sure won’t be doing it.

I’m just back from a small trip, so I got a bit behind on this thread.  I’ll just weigh in briefly on this topic. I don’t believe in physical corrections, for kids of any age, under any circumstances.  I have never hit my kids.  So, when I read that your DH corrected the kids more harshly, I took that to mean either by using harsher words than you would have ("Hey!  I’ve told you a million times not to leave towels on the floor!  Get with the program here!" vs. "Honey…. I’d really, really like it if you wouldn’t leave towels on the floor…. okay?")  OR by wanting to use negative consequences when you wanted to only reward positive behavior (grounding vs. promising rewards for future good behavior).  Physical punishment was so outside my own frame of reference, I didn’t even think about it.   *Anyone* hitting my kids — husband, grandparent, babysitter, or myself — would be unacceptable to me, so this would be a no-brainer for me.   I don’t know how to really say this…. I’ve not gotten enough sleep the last few days, and I ingested caffeine only about 5 minutes ago.  Basically, I’d suggest to you that you might want to think through your position on corporal punishment altogether.  Why would it be okay for you to hit them, and not for him?  If they were younger (five or six) would you spank them?  How would you feel if he did it?  What if he were the biological father?  Maybe asking yourself these question will lead you to clarify exactly what is going on in your head with regard to this issue. Sheila

Response:

" Suzanne" <jsnob…@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:CX4Vc.8868$5i7.6509@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >He knows he a hard person; he’s admitted it to my girls. > > That’s definitely something he’s doing right, that he can admit that not > only > > to you but also to the girls directly. > He’s a good guy.  He *is* trying. And I’m not perfect either! > > >He wants to do what’s right.  If it means stepping aside and letting me > > >handle 100% of the discipline, then that’s what he wants to do.  But – I > do > > >worry about how it’ll make him feel.  I don’t want to emasculate him. I > > >want him to be their stepfather, along with all the responsibilities that > > >come along with it.  I just don’t want any of it at my daughters expense. > > OK, I’m just going to second Sheila’s opinion on the above issue.  If you > want > > 100% of the discipline decisions then you can not expect him to shoulder > any > > other parental responsibilities at all.  That’s trying to have it both > ways, > > and is setting him up to end up resenting you and your children.  An > > arrangement like that will eat away at your relationship until it > eventually > > kills the relationship entirely. > I agree.  Her comments had a big impact on me.

What it boils down to is limits. If you cannot abide your DH using harsh disciplinary methods on your kids make a point of putting a stop to it. Set boundaries that enforce your limits. Marriage is a tricky business. If you or your spouse make sacrifices for each other more often than not it ends in resentment. My motto is "never agree to anything unless you 100% agree with it". You can read all about this concept at www.marriagebuilders.com They call it the concept of "enthusiastic agreement". Many folk live by the motto of compromise in marriage. They believe that they should give in to their spouse. That’s fine with some things but not the biggies like discipline. Amy

Response:

<snip> > My motto is "never agree to anything unless you 100% agree with it". You can > read all about this concept at www.marriagebuilders.com They call it the > concept of "enthusiastic agreement". > Many folk live by the motto of compromise in marriage. They believe that > they should give in to their spouse. That’s fine with some things but not > the biggies like discipline.

I was in that website Sunday and I printed out the relationship questionnaire.  We were so compatible until we listed our priorities in order.  Communication was two out of ten in importance for me, and it was eight out of ten for him.  I don’t think that’s a problem exclusive to us though.  I think that’s a man-woman thing, but I do think it has something to do with our issue. What a coincidence that you mentioned marriagebuilders.com, because a running joke between us all week, has been love bank deposits.  Something will happen, and he’ll go, "Cha-ching!" Suzanne

Response:

"Amy Lou" <amylou…@bigpond.com> wrote in message

news:XCaVc.1658$F7.987@news-server.bigpond.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What it boils down to is limits. If you cannot abide your DH using harsh > disciplinary methods on your kids make a point of putting a stop to it. Set > boundaries that enforce your limits. > Marriage is a tricky business. If you or your spouse make sacrifices for > each other more often than not it ends in resentment. > My motto is "never agree to anything unless you 100% agree with it". You can > read all about this concept at www.marriagebuilders.com They call it the > concept of "enthusiastic agreement". > Many folk live by the motto of compromise in marriage. They believe that > they should give in to their spouse. That’s fine with some things but not > the biggies like discipline.

Um, yeah.  And somewhere in your responses to Suzanne’s posts, Amy, have you mentioned the COLOSSAL marital problems you and your husband have had over your attitude?  Not trying to be snide, really, but you’re giving advice about a situation you don’t handle very well yourself. rebecca

Response:

"rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:zNcVc.7371$3O3.5680@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… > Um, yeah.  And somewhere in your responses to Suzanne’s posts, Amy, have you > mentioned the COLOSSAL marital problems you and your husband have had over > your attitude?  Not trying to be snide, really, but you’re giving advice > about a situation you don’t handle very well yourself.

Who better to talk about a problem, then someone who had to learn the hard way? Wendy

Response:

" Suzanne" <jsnob…@sbcglobal.net> wrote > What a coincidence that you mentioned marriagebuilders.com, because a > running joke between us all week, has been love bank deposits.  Something > will happen, and he’ll go, "Cha-ching!"

Amy

Response:

"rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com> > Um, yeah.  And somewhere in your responses to Suzanne’s posts, Amy, have you > mentioned the COLOSSAL marital problems you and your husband have had over > your attitude?  Not trying to be snide, really, but you’re giving advice > about a situation you don’t handle very well yourself.

G’day Rebecca. Its been a long while since my situation was discussed (at great length I might add) on the ng. Its all really vague in my mind now – there was so much talked about and so many different people offering opinions that I really cannot recall what each individual’s thoughts were. It would help if you would describe in more detail how you see me so that I know what we are talking about.  My attitude for example – can you elaborate on how you see it? And exactly what situation don’t I handle very well? I it probably sounds really dumb to ask but it will help immensely if we are talking about the same thing. Amy

Response:

"Amy Lou" <amylou…@bigpond.com> wrote in message

news:xlkVc.377$D7.145@news-server.bigpond.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com> > > Um, yeah.  And somewhere in your responses to Suzanne’s posts, Amy, have > you > > mentioned the COLOSSAL marital problems you and your husband have had over > > your attitude?  Not trying to be snide, really, but you’re giving advice > > about a situation you don’t handle very well yourself. > G’day Rebecca. Its been a long while since my situation was discussed (at > great length I might add) on the ng. Its all really vague in my mind now – > there was so much talked about and so many different people offering > opinions that I really cannot recall what each individual’s thoughts were. > It would help if you would describe in more detail how you see me so that I > know what we are talking about.  My attitude for example – can you elaborate > on how you see it? And exactly what situation don’t I handle very well? I it > probably sounds really dumb to ask but it will help immensely if we are > talking about the same thing.

Sure, as I recall, you have a teenage son.  In your mind, your DH is not a parent, and is thus entitled to no disciplinary authority.  And again, as I recall, this makes your husband crazy.  Over the years, you have posted innumerable times about arguments and marital problems related to this. Your attitude, like in the post you responded to Suzanne, is that you won’t compromise in any way, that your hasband is just going to have to suck it up. So I guess what I’m responding to is that you advised another person never to compromise, without pointing out that the end result of your own refusal to do so has been years and years of terrible conflict. rebecca

Response:

"rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com> > Sure, as I recall, you have a teenage son.

Yep, he’s 17 now, very independent, very capable, going to school, working and all in all very happy. We are very proud of him. In your mind, your DH is not a > parent, and is thus entitled to no disciplinary authority.

I have always considered DH a parent, but I haven’t always agreed with his methods. I  think I have a right to expect that he treats my kid in ways that are acceptable to me. And again, as I > recall, this makes your husband crazy.

It was the push and pull of "yes you can parent my kid and no I don’t think you should do that" that drove him crazy, I think. I also used to agree with his rules (even though I actually did not *agree* with them) and then he would get mad because I couldn’t follow through with them. Very passive aggressive, very crazy making! Over the years, you have posted > innumerable times about arguments and marital problems related to this.

Yes. And it took me a long time before I finally learned how to deal with it. > Your attitude, like in the post you responded to Suzanne, is that you won’t > compromise in any way, that your hasband is just going to have to suck it > up.

That’s how my attitude is *now* but it wasn’t always like that and that was why we were having problems. Things didn’t improve for us until I was able to set those important boundaries so he knew what he could do and what he couldn’t do as far as treating my son. Now he respects me and my needs and treats my son in ways that are acceptable to me. Its actually made him (DH) a happier person (not to mention a better parent) because he knows where the limits are. You ever seen a kid who’s not given any limits? They are much happier when they have limits. I guess the same thing applies for adults. > So I guess what I’m responding to is that you advised another person never > to compromise, without pointing out that the end result of your own refusal > to do so has been years and years of terrible conflict.

Do you see why I didn’t point that out now? It was my continual *compromising* that caused those years and years of conflict. So what I said to Susanne was if having her DH yell at her kids upsets her it is important (not only for her self respect but for her marriage as well) that she sets boundaries. Has there ever been a relationship gone bad because the bio parent has refused to compromise? Probably. It all depends on the people involved. Its a risk. Susanne might not want to take that risk. I didn’t for a long time and things only got worse. When I finally did take that risk things got better and now I can look back and wish I’d taken it sooner! Any questions? Amy

Response:

"Amy Lou" <amylou…@bigpond.com> wrote in message

news:SNAVc.1415$D7.146@news-server.bigpond.net.au… > It was the push and pull of "yes you can parent my kid and no I don’t think > you should do that" that drove him crazy, I think. I also used to agree with > his rules (even though I actually did not *agree* with them) and then he > would get mad because I couldn’t follow through with them. Very passive > aggressive, very crazy making!

Okay, well, thanks for clarifying. rebecca

Response:

" Suzanne" jsnob…@sbcglobal.net wrote: >His mother had her hands full and he was essentially raised >by his grandmother, who to me seems like the sweetest old lady on the face >of the Earth, but for him, she was a tough, tough woman.  You did what she >said, or else.

Hmmm…but would she ever admit to him that sometimes she could be wrong and too harsh, like he does with your girls?  If she wouldn’t do that then he has made some progress from grandma. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->For instance, my >oldest daughter drives a car that I purchased.  Of course, I have to carry >her insurance and I supply a cell phone for her too.  She works about 30 >hours a week at a local grocery store, bringing home about $400 a month. >She’s very responsible, has never gotten into any type of trouble and is >paying her own way through college, with loans that she went and got on her >own.  She pays us $200 a month, which almost covers her insurance.  She pays >for her own clothes too, for the most part.  Well, since he had to pay for >everything when he was growing up, he thinks she should too.  He wants her >to pay for her car (which was already in her life before he was), her >insurance, plus take in her cell phone. >I think she’s under enough pressure as it is.  I want her to pass college. >When her father and I divorced, there was a major income shift.  I may not >be paying for her college, but I’m contributing $350 a month for other >expenses.  He wants it to stop, no questions asked.

I don’t think what you’re doing is unreasonable.  She’s paying her way through college and you’re just trying to help.  It’s not like she’s not contributing anything, she IS contributing toward her education and toward your home.  Also, as long as none of his money is involved in paying for things he doesn’t agree with then I don’t see any reason for him to object. -Kerri

Response:

" Suzanne" jsnob…@sbcglobal.net >With his daughter, if she misbehaves in >public, I’ll get on her level (literally) and tell her that it’s >unacceptable and that when she gets home, she’ll spend the first hour, or >whatever, sitting in her room thinking about, until she can tell me what she >did wrong, and why.  His way, would be to pop her upside the head.  She >straightens up, alright!  I can’t do that.  I’m sorry – I just can’t.  Not >to say that I didn’t spank my children every once in awhile when they were >younger, but I would never feel comfortable doing that to his daughter. >It’s not the way I parent.  On the other side of the story – he thinks I’m >too lenient.  Sigh.

OK, let me be the first to chime in on the other heated debate topic.  I personally think that hitting as discipline is wrong.  "Discipline" comes from "disciple" which means "to teach".  I don’t think hitting teaches a kid anything except that a.) their caregiver has just totally lost control, and b.) their caregiver is bigger and stronger and can and will inflict physical pain if behavior is not up to their standards, and c.) if you don’t get caught, you don’t get hit.   I think suspending privileges teaches discipline better since that’s the way the world works.  If you drive recklessly you pay a fine or lose your driving privileges, if you don’t do your work you lose your job, if you do things to anger your friends you may lose their friendship, etc., etc.  On the other hand, in any of those situations if you started hitting people then it’s called assault and battery.  Why should that particular standard be any different for kids?  Better to take away privileges, favorite toys, or ground them for a while. It’s not only closer to the way the world works but it also provides some time to think about why they have to earn back the privilege or toy they are currently without. Again, it’s a heated debate topic and not everyone agrees. -Kerri

Response:

Hello everyone!  It’s been awhile since I joined a newsgroup, due to issues in my life that I needed help with. I’m not new to the SP gig, thanks to the rude introduction that my ex and his new wife gave me.  Nasty, nasty things, that culminated with my oldest daughter being kicked out by her SM, due to an email that she read, that was writing by my daughter, about her, to me.  Like in another thread, the SM copied me and I had to deal with that issue as well.  Fast forward two years… Now I’m dealing with SP’ing issues much closer to home.  My own, to be exact.  Let’s just say that my new husband and I don’t see eye to eye on discipline issues.  He was raised hard and expects everyone to emulate his values, morals… and yes, way of disciplining.  My children on the other hand, where raised to be their own person and encouraged to think for themselves and speak freely, but with respect.  A sure-fire recipe for conflict. BUT – My husband is a wonderful man in every way.  I know that sounds impossible, if I’m complaining about him, but it’s not so much *him*, as the issue of us needing to find out how we need to be handling the issue of discipline – as in who does it – and how to handle damage that has already been caused. My views on it, are that before he can step in (and vice-versa, before I can step in with his daughter), a relationship needs to be established first (this is where there is damage from past conflicts), then we can agree on a discipline style and he can discipline my two daughters.  For now, I think he can be referred to in discussions when I am disciplining, so that they’re aware that he’s aware, but I think I need to be the mouth-piece. I’ve gone back through old posts, and remarkably, I didn’t find too much on this issue.  I’ve found a few good articles on websites, but I find it much easier to relate to people one on one, from people who have been there. Other than this one issue and it’s a biggie, our marriage is about as perfect as it can be.  But, since I’ve been divorced once, I give hefty respect to any issue that causes 80% of second marriages to crumble. Suzanne – happily counting down to her one-year anniversary  :-)

Response:

Welcome Suzanne! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My husband is a wonderful man in every way.  I know that sounds impossible, >if I’m complaining about him, but it’s not so much *him*, as the issue of us >needing to find out how we need to be handling the issue of discipline – as >in who does it – and how to handle damage that has already been caused. >My views on it, are that before he can step in (and vice-versa, before I can >step in with his daughter), a relationship needs to be established first >(this is where there is damage from past conflicts), then we can agree on a >discipline style and he can discipline my two daughters.  For now, I think >he can be referred to in discussions when I am disciplining, so that they’re >aware that he’s aware, but I think I need to be the mouth-piece. >I’ve gone back through old posts, and remarkably, I didn’t find too much on >this issue.  I’ve found a few good articles on websites, but I find it much >easier to relate to people one on one, from people who have been there.

I don’t think there is a general consensus on this.  There seems to be many different ways of approaching this, and different approaches can be successful, depending on the people.  No one size fitting all, here. I think your biggest problem is going to be that you and you DH aren’t starting off on the same page.  I can understand your DH’s point of view.  I couldn’t live in a house where I wasn’t an authority figure for the children in the house (of course, I also wouldn’t marry if I knew that I wouldn’t be that authority figure, so maybe he and I are different in that way!).  The problem, as I see it, is going to be in the one of you who is doing it "the other way" feeling resentful on a day to day basis.  If you "give in" and let him be an authority figure before you think he should, it is likely to grate on you whenever you hear him doing something you think is wrong.  If he gives in, he’s likely to feel angry and resentful when he’s expected to keep his mouth shut.   I don’t know how you can work out this problem successfully.  How important is it to him that he be able to discipline?  If it is VERY important to him, could you get behind that — fully — if that was what the two of you decided? Alternatively, what does he say about the times he’s remained quiet… how is that impacting on your relationship, and his relationship with your kids?  I know myself well enough to know that, if I felt that I was an adult with no authority over the kids, I’d resent the kids, and my spouse.   Sheila

Response:

> >My husband is a wonderful man in every way.  I know that sounds impossible, > >if I’m complaining about him, but it’s not so much *him*, as the issue of us > >needing to find out how we need to be handling the issue of discipline – as > >in who does it – and how to handle damage that has already been caused.

<snip original post > – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think there is a general consensus on this.  There seems to be many > different ways of approaching this, and different approaches can be successful, > depending on the people.  No one size fitting all, here. > I think your biggest problem is going to be that you and you DH aren’t starting > off on the same page.  I can understand your DH’s point of view.  I couldn’t > live in a house where I wasn’t an authority figure for the children in the > house (of course, I also wouldn’t marry if I knew that I wouldn’t be that > authority figure, so maybe he and I are different in that way!).  The problem, > as I see it, is going to be in the one of you who is doing it "the other way" > feeling resentful on a day to day basis.  If you "give in" and let him be an > authority figure before you think he should, it is likely to grate on you > whenever you hear him doing something you think is wrong.  If he gives in, he’s > likely to feel angry and resentful when he’s expected to keep his mouth

shut. Well, I’ll admit that when we met, child rearing wasn’t discussed as far as discipline goes.  Seems so basic, but it never came up.  I have full custody of my two, one of which moves out for college on Friday.  My other daughter is 14 1/2.  His daughter is only with us every other weekend and she’s only six. The problem is, that when he disciplines, his words come out sounding harsher than he intends.  I never say anything to him in front of the kids, because I don’t want to undermine him.  I do however, bring it up in private.  Never in an accusatory way – just maybe a "Honey, that sounded a little rough".  Nine times out of ten, he’ll tell me that he could have handled it better.  He knows he a hard person; he’s admitted it to my girls. The tenth time, he won’t back down and that’s when we have to get down to the nitty gritty. Now, bear in mind, these are just the times I think he’s wrong.  There are times when he handles it wonderfully and I always tell him so.  I am not always 100% right.  I parent using more of a positive reinforcement method and he does the opposite – he’s more of the type that does it by putting them in their place.  I figure I raised two daughters that turned out very well this way – maybe it’ll work for this problem too.  Luckily my daughters are older, and don’t get in much trouble.  It’s mainly for them being, what he calls "disrespectful to me".  To me, it’s them pushing the boundaries and being a bratty teenager.  Trust me, I’ll have my mouth open to say something to them, and he’ll insert his words, before I get a chance.  I am not a softie and can be hard myself.  Just ask my daughters!  ;-) I’m as much worried about the issue itself, as the problem that you mentioned above.  I want him to be comfortable in our marriage and in his role as the stepfather.  Step-parenting is far more difficult than I ever imagined that it would be!  Having an ex-wife in the picture ain’t too fun either, but that’s for another newsgroup.  Is there an alt.exwife.needs.to.butt.out newsgroup around??  Just teasing… sort of. > I don’t know how you can work out this problem successfully.  How important is > it to him that he be able to discipline?  If it is VERY important to him, could > you get behind that — fully — if that was what the two of you decided? > Alternatively, what does he say about the times he’s remained quiet… how is > that impacting on your relationship, and his relationship with your kids? I > know myself well enough to know that, if I felt that I was an adult with no > authority over the kids, I’d resent the kids, and my spouse.

He wants to do what’s right.  If it means stepping aside and letting me handle 100% of the discipline, then that’s what he wants to do.  But – I do worry about how it’ll make him feel.  I don’t want to emasculate him.  I want him to be their stepfather, along with all the responsibilities that come along with it.  I just don’t want any of it at my daughters expense. It’s worth it to me, to fight for the answers. Thanks for your perspective.  I really appreciate it. Suzanne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sheila

Response:

"Kerri Clair" <kerricl…@aol.comma> wrote in message

news:20040819045533.29244.00001249@mb-m19.aol.com… > " Suzanne" jsnob…@sbcglobal.net wrote: > >His mother had her hands full and he was essentially raised > >by his grandmother, who to me seems like the sweetest old lady on the face > >of the Earth, but for him, she was a tough, tough woman.  You did what she > >said, or else. > Hmmm…but would she ever admit to him that sometimes she could be wrong and > too harsh, like he does with your girls?  If she wouldn’t do that then he has > made some progress from grandma.

Oh, she’s as sweet as sugar now!  She adores my daughters and I could never imagine her disciplining them like she did him.  She’s a good woman, but she handled him with an iron fist, but he still knew she loved him.  He tells me that all the time. As a matter of fact, she has mentioned that she cried after spanking him one time (he was caught playing on railroad tracks… I would have blistered his butt too) and she does admit that she was tough on him.  He sees all of this as a plus in his life, now.  He says it made him the man that he is today. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->snip< > >I think she’s under enough pressure as it is.  I want her to pass college. > >When her father and I divorced, there was a major income shift.  I may not > >be paying for her college, but I’m contributing $350 a month for other > >expenses.  He wants it to stop, no questions asked. > I don’t think what you’re doing is unreasonable.  She’s paying her way through > college and you’re just trying to help.  It’s not like she’s not contributing > anything, she IS contributing toward her education and toward your home. Also, > as long as none of his money is involved in paying for things he doesn’t agree > with then I don’t see any reason for him to object.

Well, our money is combined, so he is in essence contributing to the bills. I think he sees her as free-loading, which of course, is an irritant to me. But the other day, he told me that he was going to take out an insurance policy for his daughter, that he could cash in when she was college-age, so that she could have some help.  Of course, our money is combined, so I’ll be helping pay for that too.  Just a tad hypocritical, but I didn’t say anything.  He’ll catch on sooner, or later. Suzanne

Response:

"Suzanne" jsnob…@sbcglobal.net wrote: >He knows he a hard person; he’s admitted it to my girls.

That’s definitely something he’s doing right, that he can admit that not only to you but also to the girls directly. >He wants to do what’s right.  If it means stepping aside and letting me >handle 100% of the discipline, then that’s what he wants to do.  But – I do >worry about how it’ll make him feel.  I don’t want to emasculate him.  I >want him to be their stepfather, along with all the responsibilities that >come along with it.  I just don’t want any of it at my daughters expense.

OK, I’m just going to second Sheila’s opinion on the above issue.  If you want 100% of the discipline decisions then you can not expect him to shoulder any other parental responsibilities at all.  That’s trying to have it both ways, and is setting him up to end up resenting you and your children.  An arrangement like that will eat away at your relationship until it eventually kills the relationship entirely. -Kerri

Response:

<snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Suzanne:  >Well, I’ll admit that when we met, child rearing wasn’t discussed as > far as > >discipline goes.  Seems so basic, but it never came up.  I have full custody > >of my two, one of which moves out for college on Friday.  My other daughter > >is 14 1/2.  His daughter is only with us every other weekend and she’s only > >six. > Yes, setting up a household/parenting plan that both can agree to should be a > requirement before getting the marriage license  ;-).  That isn’t to say that > people still might not change their minds once they are in it — you can’t > always predict how you will feel living with a decision day in and day out — > but at least you would have discussed it.

Oh, I’ll take that one step further!  I think pre-marital counseling should be mandatory!  We’re actually batting around the idea of going anyway.  We figure it can’t hurt and who knows, we might learn a thing or two. > >The problem is, that when he disciplines, his words come out sounding > >harsher than he intends. > Generally, I’ve found this to be a male trait (more than female).  My DH does a > bit of that too.  Then again, as he’s pointed out to me, I think I may just > **notice** it more coming from him.  He’s pointed out a time or two when I’ve > said stuff that I would have "pinged" him for (like you, in private — NEVER in > front of the kids).

My husband may read these posts and I’m going to be 100% honest.  Let me give you a little background about how he was raised.  It has EVERYTHING to do with who he is today.  He was moved around no less than five times, when he was younger.  His mother had her hands full and he was essentially raised by his grandmother, who to me seems like the sweetest old lady on the face of the Earth, but for him, she was a tough, tough woman.  You did what she said, or else.  As a matter of fact, not too long ago, I heard her get wound up and it was like hearing my husband’s voice, coming out of her mouth.  On top of all this, they didn’t have much money.  If he wanted school clothes, he had to purchase them, or he went without. Polar opposite of my upbringing. I think we tend to parent, the way we were parented.  Or to an extent anyway.  Some of his main issues, involve money and responsibility.  Not that those aren’t some important issues, but he expects my children to follow his values.  You just can’t walk into someone’s life and expect them to snap to it like that.  It’s a collision waiting to happen.  But again, he’s a good man – just a little stern in his beliefs.  None of them are wrong, just very rigid. > I never say anything to him in front of the kids, > >because I don’t want to undermine him.  I do however, bring it up in > >private.  Never in an accusatory way – just maybe a "Honey, that sounded a > >little rough".  Nine times out of ten, he’ll tell me that he could have > >handled it better.  He knows he a hard person; he’s admitted it to my girls. > >The tenth time, he won’t back down and that’s when we have to get down to > >the nitty gritty. > I’m not sure what you mean here… that he won’t back down.  What is it, > behaviorally, that you want him to do?

No, there are just times where he won’t compromise.  He’ll drop it, but you know he thinks what parental decision you made, was wrong.  For instance, my oldest daughter drives a car that I purchased.  Of course, I have to carry her insurance and I supply a cell phone for her too.  She works about 30 hours a week at a local grocery store, bringing home about $400 a month. She’s very responsible, has never gotten into any type of trouble and is paying her own way through college, with loans that she went and got on her own.  She pays us $200 a month, which almost covers her insurance.  She pays for her own clothes too, for the most part.  Well, since he had to pay for everything when he was growing up, he thinks she should too.  He wants her to pay for her car (which was already in her life before he was), her insurance, plus take in her cell phone. I think she’s under enough pressure as it is.  I want her to pass college. When her father and I divorced, there was a major income shift.  I may not be paying for her college, but I’m contributing $350 a month for other expenses.  He wants it to stop, no questions asked.  He wants things to change, that were already in place when he met me.  He’s resigned himself to that fact that they’re going to stay the way they are, until I see how well she handles college, but if he had his way, she’d be working three jobs, attending college and scrubbing the dorm floors during sleep hours. I guess I just think it’s unfair to step into someone’s life and expect them to instantly adhere to your beliefs.  Life isn’t that simple. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Now, bear in mind, these are just the times I think he’s wrong.  There are > >times when he handles it wonderfully and I always tell him so.  I am not > >always 100% right.  I parent using more of a positive reinforcement method > >and he does the opposite – he’s more of the type that does it by putting > >them in their place.  I figure I raised two daughters that turned out very > >well this way – maybe it’ll work for this problem too.  Luckily my daughters > >are older, and don’t get in much trouble. > I do both.  I’m very positive with my kids — we spend a lot of time laughing > and talking, and are very affectionate — but I also "put them in their place". >  It doesn’t have to be one way or the other.  AAMOF, I think a good combination > of the two is the best way.  :-)

You sound like a good mother! <snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here you have one of the ubiquitous arguments on this ng — whether or not one > adult should intervene on the behalf of another in stepparenting situations. > It is one of the more polarizing arguments.  Some are very much where you are > — that you should handle your relationship with the kids, with no > interference from your spouse.  Same goes for the spouse. > I’m of a different school of thought.  For me, the marriage needs to be the > center of the family, and the couple bests functions as a unit.  That means I > wouldn’t mind if my husband were to intervene when I was having a conflict with > my kids.  In fact, it would make me feel good that we were supporting one > another.  I would want that in a non-blended family, and I want it in a > stepfamily too.

I would agree with you here, if I thought my husband would handle it without making things worse.  That’s really the center of my issue.  We parent differently.  Too differently.  With his daughter, if she misbehaves in public, I’ll get on her level (literally) and tell her that it’s unacceptable and that when she gets home, she’ll spend the first hour, or whatever, sitting in her room thinking about, until she can tell me what she did wrong, and why.  His way, would be to pop her upside the head.  She straightens up, alright!  I can’t do that.  I’m sorry – I just can’t.  Not to say that I didn’t spank my children every once in awhile when they were younger, but I would never feel comfortable doing that to his daughter. It’s not the way I parent.  On the other side of the story – he thinks I’m too lenient.  Sigh. I just feel like a good, solid, loving relationship needs to be in place, before you can dole out discipline.  Otherwise, I think you lose respect, before you’ve even had the chance to earn it. Ironically, it used to drive me NUTS that my ex would not get involved in any arguments with my daughters.  I was the sole disciplinarian.  Go figure. > Again, as I said before, I think either way can be successful (my situation > certainly is), depending on the participants.  My kids just know that my DH and > I are a unit.  There isn’t an expectation that they can say something to one of > us, without the other having the capability for input, because we’ve never led > them to believe that that expectation has any validity.  I think that is > incredibly important.  Whichever way you two decide to deal with it, I think > you need to be consistent and give very clear messages to the kids.  If you > give mixed messages, I think you are majorly setting yourself up for

problems. I agree.  How long have you been married and what are your children’s ages? <snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >He wants to do what’s right.  If it means stepping aside and letting me > >handle 100% of the discipline, then that’s what he wants to do. > Hmmm… then I don’t see the problem.  I mean, if you are both happy with that, > then, as Nike says, just do it! >  But – I do > >worry about how it’ll make him feel.  I don’t want to emasculate him.  I > >want him to be their stepfather, along with all the responsibilities that > >come along with it.  I just don’t want any of it at my daughters expense. > >It’s worth it to me, to fight for the answers. > Sooo…. is he giving you signals that he wouldn’t be happy with that > arrangement, or is that coming from inside your own head?

Coming from my own busy little head. > Personally, I don’t think he should have to have *any* responsibilities, if he > has no disciplinary rights.  I mean…. if you expect him to take a parenting > role with them, but pull out the trump card of "But I’m the real parent, so > I’ve decided that you can’t discipline", I think that is wrong.  (sorry) IMO, > you can’t have it both ways.  If you want to be the sole parent, do that. > There are many people on this newsgroup that do that.  But, you shouldn’t > cherrypick on which role *you* want him to fulfill.

Very interesting.  I actually read this post this morning and thought I’d wait until later, when I had the time, to respond.  This has entered my mind off and on throughout the day.  I 100% agree and it’s something that I’m going to bring up to him later.  I never looked at it from this point of view.  Thanks for the food for thought. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Thanks for your perspective.  I really appreciate it. > Eh, no problem.  I’ll give you my

… read more »

Response:

Me:  >> I don’t think there is a general consensus on this.  There seems to be – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->many >> different ways of approaching this, and different approaches can be >successful, >> depending on the people.  No one size fitting all, here. >> I think your biggest problem is going to be that you and you DH aren’t >starting >> off on the same page.  I can understand your DH’s point of view.  I >couldn’t >> live in a house where I wasn’t an authority figure for the children in the >> house (of course, I also wouldn’t marry if I knew that I wouldn’t be that >> authority figure, so maybe he and I are different in that way!).  The >problem, >> as I see it, is going to be in the one of you who is doing it "the other >way" >> feeling resentful on a day to day basis.  If you "give in" and let him be >an >> authority figure before you think he should, it is likely to grate on you >> whenever you hear him doing something you think is wrong.  If he gives in, >he’s >> likely to feel angry and resentful when he’s expected to keep his mouth >shut.

Suzanne:  >Well, I’ll admit that when we met, child rearing wasn’t discussed as far as >discipline goes.  Seems so basic, but it never came up.  I have full custody >of my two, one of which moves out for college on Friday.  My other daughter >is 14 1/2.  His daughter is only with us every other weekend and she’s only >six.

Yes, setting up a household/parenting plan that both can agree to should be a requirement before getting the marriage license  ;-).  That isn’t to say that people still might not change their minds once they are in it — you can’t always predict how you will feel living with a decision day in and day out — but at least you would have discussed it. >The problem is, that when he disciplines, his words come out sounding >harsher than he intends.  

Generally, I’ve found this to be a male trait (more than female).  My DH does a bit of that too.  Then again, as he’s pointed out to me, I think I may just **notice** it more coming from him.  He’s pointed out a time or two when I’ve said stuff that I would have "pinged" him for (like you, in private — NEVER in front of the kids).   I never say anything to him in front of the kids, >because I don’t want to undermine him.  I do however, bring it up in >private.  Never in an accusatory way – just maybe a "Honey, that sounded a >little rough".  Nine times out of ten, he’ll tell me that he could have >handled it better.  He knows he a hard person; he’s admitted it to my girls. >The tenth time, he won’t back down and that’s when we have to get down to >the nitty gritty.

I’m not sure what you mean here… that he won’t back down.  What is it, behaviorally, that you want him to do? >Now, bear in mind, these are just the times I think he’s wrong.  There are >times when he handles it wonderfully and I always tell him so.  I am not >always 100% right.  I parent using more of a positive reinforcement method >and he does the opposite – he’s more of the type that does it by putting >them in their place.  I figure I raised two daughters that turned out very >well this way – maybe it’ll work for this problem too.  Luckily my daughters >are older, and don’t get in much trouble.  

I do both.  I’m very positive with my kids — we spend a lot of time laughing and talking, and are very affectionate — but I also "put them in their place".  It doesn’t have to be one way or the other.  AAMOF, I think a good combination of the two is the best way.  :-) It’s mainly for them being, what >he calls "disrespectful to me".  To me, it’s them pushing the boundaries and >being a bratty teenager.  Trust me, I’ll have my mouth open to say something >to them, and he’ll insert his words, before I get a chance.  I am not a >softie and can be hard myself.  Just ask my daughters!  ;-)

Here you have one of the ubiquitous arguments on this ng — whether or not one adult should intervene on the behalf of another in stepparenting situations. It is one of the more polarizing arguments.  Some are very much where you are — that you should handle your relationship with the kids, with no interference from your spouse.  Same goes for the spouse.   I’m of a different school of thought.  For me, the marriage needs to be the center of the family, and the couple bests functions as a unit.  That means I wouldn’t mind if my husband were to intervene when I was having a conflict with my kids.  In fact, it would make me feel good that we were supporting one another.  I would want that in a non-blended family, and I want it in a stepfamily too.   Again, as I said before, I think either way can be successful (my situation certainly is), depending on the participants.  My kids just know that my DH and I are a unit.  There isn’t an expectation that they can say something to one of us, without the other having the capability for input, because we’ve never led them to believe that that expectation has any validity.  I think that is incredibly important.  Whichever way you two decide to deal with it, I think you need to be consistent and give very clear messages to the kids.  If you give mixed messages, I think you are majorly setting yourself up for problems. >I’m as much worried about the issue itself, as the problem that you >mentioned above.  I want him to be comfortable in our marriage and in his >role as the stepfather.  Step-parenting is far more difficult than I ever >imagined that it would be!  

Yeppers.   Having an ex-wife in the picture ain’t too fun >either, but that’s for another newsgroup.  Is there an >alt.exwife.needs.to.butt.out newsgroup around??  Just teasing… sort of.

You can do venting here to.  It helps if you put "Vent" in the subject line, so people know that you are just running off at the mouth, and they take what you say with a grain of salt, for the moment.  :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I don’t know how you can work out this problem successfully.  How >important is >> it to him that he be able to discipline?  If it is VERY important to him, >could >> you get behind that — fully — if that was what the two of you decided? >> Alternatively, what does he say about the times he’s remained quiet… how >is >> that impacting on your relationship, and his relationship with your kids? >I >> know myself well enough to know that, if I felt that I was an adult with >no >> authority over the kids, I’d resent the kids, and my spouse. >He wants to do what’s right.  If it means stepping aside and letting me >handle 100% of the discipline, then that’s what he wants to do.

Hmmm… then I don’t see the problem.  I mean, if you are both happy with that, then, as Nike says, just do it!  But – I do >worry about how it’ll make him feel.  I don’t want to emasculate him.  I >want him to be their stepfather, along with all the responsibilities that >come along with it.  I just don’t want any of it at my daughters expense. >It’s worth it to me, to fight for the answers.

Sooo…. is he giving you signals that he wouldn’t be happy with that arrangement, or is that coming from inside your own head?   Personally, I don’t think he should have to have *any* responsibilities, if he has no disciplinary rights.  I mean…. if you expect him to take a parenting role with them, but pull out the trump card of "But I’m the real parent, so I’ve decided that you can’t discipline", I think that is wrong.  (sorry)  IMO, you can’t have it both ways.  If you want to be the sole parent, do that. There are many people on this newsgroup that do that.  But, you shouldn’t cherrypick on which role *you* want him to fulfill. >Thanks for your perspective.  I really appreciate it.

Eh, no problem.  I’ll give you my opinion (as will others) and you can take what you think will work, and leave the rest behind.  In any case, I hope you aren’t offended… I’m just telling you how I see things. Sheila – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Suzanne >> Sheila

Response:

> > Well, I’ll admit that when we met, child rearing wasn’t discussed as > > far as discipline goes.  Seems so basic, but it never came up.  I > > have full custody of my two, one of which moves out for college on > > Friday.  My other daughter is 14 1/2.  His daughter is only with us > > every other weekend and she’s only six. > This ought to be a required discussion (and resolution) before any marriages > with children take place.  It would save an amazing amount of trouble.

Well, now I realize it.  We never had a round table discussion about it, but I’m sure somewhere along the road, war stories (especially mine) came up. But did we ask each other how we would handle it in a marriage?  No.  Should we have?  Well, I sure think so now! I know I’m not the only one though.  My business partner is having a horrible time with her similar situation, to the tune of the SS not being allowed to come back to the house.  Ouch.  I do *not* want to see us get to that point. I was married a looooong time to my first husband and went through a horrible time after our divorce.  Made some bad choices and got my life back together.  I much prefer the "life back together" stage and will fight tooth and nail to keep from going backwards. Ironically, my husband and I are rock solid.  I know it sounds stupid, in light of my post, but this is our only issue and we’re both very dedicated to working on it.  I would be a fool to not work on it, especially considering that it’s short-term.  My youngest will be in college in less than four years.  My husband should last a lifetime. <snip> > > I’m as much worried about the issue itself, as the problem that you > > mentioned above.  I want him to be comfortable in our marriage and in > > his role as the stepfather.  Step-parenting is far more difficult > > than I ever imagined that it would be!  Having an ex-wife in the > > picture ain’t too fun either, but that’s for another newsgroup.  Is > > there an alt.exwife.needs.to.butt.out newsgroup around??  Just > > teasing… sort of. > No, that is for this newsgroup, too!

Oh boy, then you’re in for a treat!  ;-) <snip> > Every household its own comfort level for these things.  You have not been > married that long, right?  It may iron out.  Brian and I ironed out this > issue before we were married, so I we had less than a handfull of > discussions about it maybe the first year we were married and after that, > basically never. We are on the same page.  Would it be helpful for the two > of you to sit down and try to work out a plan when there is not an actual > disciplinary infraction taking place – in a calm moment, IOW?

We’re working towards our first anniversary.  I feel like we’re trying to get on the same page, but that we need a little guidance.  We haven’t ruled out counseling – something that my ex would never agree to.  My DH is as dedicated to the issue as I am, thank God.  We’re both very aware of what we have. We are doing what you’re suggesting.  He knows I’m searching the internet and newsgroups in search of answers.  I’ve done some research on some good books (still open to suggestions though!) and I plan on buying a few tomorrow.  I’m the type that will research something to death.  :-/ Suzanne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > **Geri** > "Remember, never take no cutoffs and hurry along as fast as you can." > Virginia Reed, Donner Party

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - Suzanne wrote: >>> My husband is a wonderful man in every way.  I know that sounds >>> impossible, if I’m complaining about him, but it’s not so much >>> *him*, as the issue of us needing to find out how we need to be >>> handling the issue of discipline – as in who does it – and how to >>> handle damage that has already been caused. > <snip original post > >> I don’t think there is a general consensus on this.  There seems to >> be many different ways of approaching this, and different approaches >> can be successful, depending on the people.  No one size fitting >> all, here. >> I think your biggest problem is going to be that you and you DH >> aren’t starting off on the same page.  I can understand your DH’s >> point of view.  I couldn’t live in a house where I wasn’t an >> authority figure for the children in the house (of course, I also >> wouldn’t marry if I knew that I wouldn’t be that authority figure, >> so maybe he and I are different in that way!).  The problem, as I >> see it, is going to be in the one of you who is doing it "the other >> way" feeling resentful on a day to day basis.  If you "give in" and >> let him be an authority figure before you think he should, it is >> likely to grate on you whenever you hear him doing something you >> think is wrong.  If he gives in, he’s likely to feel angry and >> resentful when he’s expected to keep his mouth shut. > Well, I’ll admit that when we met, child rearing wasn’t discussed as > far as discipline goes.  Seems so basic, but it never came up.  I > have full custody of my two, one of which moves out for college on > Friday.  My other daughter is 14 1/2.  His daughter is only with us > every other weekend and she’s only six.

This ought to be a required discussion (and resolution) before any marriages with children take place.  It would save an amazing amount of trouble. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The problem is, that when he disciplines, his words come out sounding > harsher than he intends.  I never say anything to him in front of the > kids, because I don’t want to undermine him.  I do however, bring it > up in private.  Never in an accusatory way – just maybe a "Honey, > that sounded a little rough".  Nine times out of ten, he’ll tell me > that he could have handled it better.  He knows he a hard person; > he’s admitted it to my girls. The tenth time, he won’t back down and > that’s when we have to get down to the nitty gritty. > Now, bear in mind, these are just the times I think he’s wrong. > There are times when he handles it wonderfully and I always tell him > so.  I am not always 100% right.  I parent using more of a positive > reinforcement method and he does the opposite – he’s more of the type > that does it by putting them in their place.  I figure I raised two > daughters that turned out very well this way – maybe it’ll work for > this problem too.  Luckily my daughters are older, and don’t get in > much trouble.  It’s mainly for them being, what he calls > "disrespectful to me".  To me, it’s them pushing the boundaries and > being a bratty teenager.  Trust me, I’ll have my mouth open to say > something to them, and he’ll insert his words, before I get a chance. > I am not a softie and can be hard myself.  Just ask my daughters! > > I’m as much worried about the issue itself, as the problem that you > mentioned above.  I want him to be comfortable in our marriage and in > his role as the stepfather.  Step-parenting is far more difficult > than I ever imagined that it would be!  Having an ex-wife in the > picture ain’t too fun either, but that’s for another newsgroup.  Is > there an alt.exwife.needs.to.butt.out newsgroup around??  Just > teasing… sort of.

No, that is for this newsgroup, too! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I don’t know how you can work out this problem successfully.  How >> important is it to him that he be able to discipline?  If it is VERY >> important to him, could you get behind that — fully — if that was >> what the two of you decided? Alternatively, what does he say about >> the times he’s remained quiet… how is that impacting on your >> relationship, and his relationship with your kids? I know myself >> well enough to know that, if I felt that I was an adult with no >> authority over the kids, I’d resent the kids, and my spouse. > He wants to do what’s right.  If it means stepping aside and letting > me handle 100% of the discipline, then that’s what he wants to do. > But – I do worry about how it’ll make him feel.  I don’t want to > emasculate him.  I want him to be their stepfather, along with all > the responsibilities that come along with it.  I just don’t want any > of it at my daughters expense. It’s worth it to me, to fight for the > answers. > Thanks for your perspective.  I really appreciate it.

Every household its own comfort level for these things.  You have not been married that long, right?  It may iron out.  Brian and I ironed out this issue before we were married, so I we had less than a handfull of discussions about it maybe the first year we were married and after that, basically never. We are on the same page.  Would it be helpful for the two of you to sit down and try to work out a plan when there is not an actual disciplinary infraction taking place – in a calm moment, IOW? — **Geri** "Remember, never take no cutoffs and hurry along as fast as you can." Virginia Reed, Donner Party

Response:

I’ve studied the Polar watches and they only have a few models on their website, I don’t see all the models people talk about.  For running there are only 3, and the Polar S210 is the middle one.  Seems to be good for me.  Not much more expensive than the S120.  Is this a good watch for a beginner? Thanks

Response:

Is this a good watch for a beginner?

It’s OK, though I’d buy the base model that merely displayed HR until I knew what I was doing.  Then I’d donate it to a local youth running group and buy a nice complex one that I could play with for hours. And, by golly, that’s what I did!

Response:

Then I’d donate it to a local youth running group

Anything you can do to get near young ones eh Roger?

Response:

I’ve studied the Polar watches and they only have a few models on their website, I don’t see all the models people talk about.  For running there are only 3, and the Polar S210 is the middle one.  Seems to be good for me.  Not much more expensive than the S120.  Is this a good watch for a beginner? Thanks

http://www.polarusa.com/consumer/productfinder/productfinder.asp Hmm, it lists S120 as $120, S210 as $200, and S410 as $230, and a ton of other models. http://www.polar4less.com/heart_rate_monitors.htm has cheaper prices with S120 $90, S210 $137, and S410 $165 (I’ve not dealt with this company and have NFI in either) Short version: If you just want something to start with, the more basic model like the S120 (and they have some lower cost models but not familiar with that series) would probably be fine. If you even think you want to download stuff, I’d get the 410 rather than the 210 for the extra $30. The 210 is a fair amt more than the 120 in these lists, and if you’re going to spend that much money, I’d get the download capabilities. Just my $.02. Long version: What you get depends on how you want to use it, in particular if you want to download your data to a computer – or if you even need a hrm (can take pulse manually or run by feel or breathing effort). If you’re not sure, then you might start out with a low-end model and after you get a better feeling for what you want to do (type of running, duration of runs, frequency of recording, multisport, etc), get something better. If you know you definitely want to download stuff, I think the S410 is the lowend, but has some limitations (single exercise set, frequency of recording decreases with longer workouts). I’m a beginner and have used an S410 for about 3 years, but have been planning on upgrading for at least a year (waiting for batteries to die, which they did recently) because of some of its limitations (some of which are artifact of early version, but some of which are inherent in it). I got it thinking it was the upper end of what I’d be interested in. Wrong. My interests expanded substantially about 6 months after I started using it. But I don’t look at it much while running (go by feel now) and depend heavily on the download capability – but that’s me, what I like, and my personality. In contrast, the runners in my cross-training class (mostly much more experienced) couldn’t understand why anyone would want to download data or even if it was worthwhile to get a hrm. YMMV. Dot waiting for S625x to upgrade

Response:

  If you know you definitely want to download stuff, I think the S410 is the lowend, but has some limitations (single exercise set, frequency of recording decreases with longer workouts).

Also uses sonic link rather than infrared port for transfer and probably a couple other things I didn’t care for but can’t remember at the moment. I think the 610 gets rid of those issues.

Response:

I’ve studied the Polar watches and they only have a few models on their website, I don’t see all the models people talk about.  For running there are only 3, and the Polar S210 is the middle one.  Seems to be good for me.  Not much more expensive than the S120.  Is this a good watch for a beginner?

Here’s a nice comparison tool to help you sort things out: http://tinyurl.com/4nqxj They list these models as being for running: S120   $90 S210  $137 S410  $165 S610i $189 S810i $291 S625X $??? I have the S610i, which I purchased from Polar4Less.com at a substantial savings. I’ve listed their prices above. The 610 has infrared data communication. The 410 uses a sonic link. I’ve found infrared communication to be flawless. Since I have an infrared port on my laptop, it is very convinenient to transmit the data from the watch to the laptop using the software application. You can also download data to the watch. This makes it easy (using the Polar Precision Performance software) to create your exercises, HR zones, etc., then download it to your watch. The 610 and the 410 come with the Polar software. The 610i can store up to 99 exercise files. Since I pull the data frequently, I never even get close to using up the memory on the watch. The 410 and the 210 can store 1 exercise file. There are a few other differences, but they aren’t that important. As Dot has already mentioned, it really depends on what you want to do with it. Are you really in to analyzing your exercise data? If so, you have to at least go with the 410 (or the 610 for $25 more) for uploading and software included. Since you are just starting out and just want something to measure your HR and motivate you, then maybe the 120 is good enough. That way you won’t be spending too much money, and can justify getting a better one, once you realize what you actually want or need. Or you may realize that you don’t need an HRM at all. So at least you won’t have wasted too much money in the process. Phil M.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve studied the Polar watches and they only have a few models on their website, I don’t see all the models people talk about.  For running there are only 3, and the Polar S210 is the middle one.  Seems to be good for me.  Not much more expensive than the S120.  Is this a good watch for a beginner? Thanks http://www.polarusa.com/consumer/productfinder/productfinder.asp Hmm, it lists S120 as $120, S210 as $200, and S410 as $230, and a ton of other models. http://www.polar4less.com/heart_rate_monitors.htm has cheaper prices with S120 $90, S210 $137, and S410 $165 (I’ve not dealt with this company and have NFI in either)

I purchased the S610i from them. Great price, quick delivery, no problems. If you know you definitely want to download stuff, I think the S410 is the lowend, but has some limitations (single exercise set, frequency of recording decreases with longer workouts).

That’s one reason why I got the S610. The 2-way infrared communication works great. I like being able to setup my exercises on the laptop and upload them to the watch. I’ve never really made use of the 99 file limit, since I’m always pulling the data off the watch. I’m a beginner and have used an S410 for about 3 years

You can stop calling yourself a beginner now. Dot waiting for S625x to upgrade

I’m on a spouse-mandated spending freeze on running paraphernalia. Hopefully the freeze will be lifted when the S625x comes out. Phil M.

Response:

  They list these models as being for running: S120   $90 S210  $137 S410  $165 S610i $189

At that price difference, I wouldn’t even consider the 410. Advantages of 610 are worth waaay more than $24 IMHO. S810i $291 S625X $???

$234 according to http://www.polar4less.com/heart_rate_monitors.htm Dot

Response:

I’ve never really made use of the 99 file limit, since I’m always pulling the data off the watch.

I’ve wanted it for different phases of a workout. I sometimes bike and run in one workout. Our xt class has a "warmup" (yea, right, I end up well above LT, sometimes above 95% of my estimated max hr), stretch (don’t need data), then a circuit of some sort which I’d like to record separately from the warmup. I’m a beginner and have used an S410 for about 3 years You can stop calling yourself a beginner now.

Thanks , *but* I’ve only done one normal running race (no multisport, no snowshoes) – although I’ve had a bunch of fun / challenge training for races that got cancelled or just plain creating my own goals and working toward them. In my mind, I’m always beginning to learn – hopefully, until the day I die. Dot waiting for S625x to upgrade I’m on a spouse-mandated spending freeze on running paraphernalia. Hopefully the freeze will be lifted when the S625x comes out.

LOL. Didn’t you just get your 610? She may be justified My 4.5 yr old computer started heading south about a month ago, and I decided buying a new one was easier / cheaper than figuring out problems with old one. So getting the new one configured plus some field trips and other hassles have kept me from thinking about 625 too much. BTW, I did see your pic of Hard Rock and was going to post a couple pics for comparison, but haven’t had time to sort pics or get FTP setup on new machine. After I got the new machine, then I remembered why I’d been avoiding getting a new machine for so long. Dot

Response:

I’ve studied the Polar watches and they only have a few models on their website, I don’t see all the models people talk about.  For running there are only 3, and the Polar S210 is the middle one.  Seems to be good for me.  Not much more expensive than the S120.  Is this a good watch for a beginner?

I ordered the S210.  I ruled out the S410 because of the soniclink problems.  The S610i requires irda which I don’t have, and is another $40.  So the S210 is $100 cheaper than the S610i, which I don’t really need anyway. I can’t wait to get it and try it out.  Thanks everyone for your help.   I’m glad I followed the advice here.  Especially by going with the Polar instead of the Nike Triax C6.  Only $30 difference in price and the Polar is much better. -Michael

Response:

I’ve studied the Polar watches and they only have a few models on their website, I don’t see all the models people talk about.  For running there are only 3, and the Polar S210 is the middle one.  Seems to be good for me.  Not much more expensive than the S120.  Is this a good watch for a beginner? Thanks

For truly "recreational" running, almost any HRM is good enough. You might get a little  more fun from playing with the features on a higher-end model.  But none of those features have much to do with just running for recreation.  They have a lot to do with training for competition. For myself, I chose the S210 over the S1xx models, mainly because I prefer the black over the yellow colors.  Any of them will show the heart rate and elapsed time on one screen, and will make noise when the heart rate is out of your preset range. Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t tell you anything about the C6.  But my experience with the Nike Triax 100, Nike’s first speed and distance monitor, was horrible.  The For what it is worth, this is my experience with Nike electronics.  I personally will never buy one of their products again.  The C6 could be a much better product, I don’t know.  I suggest that you do your home work. Google a little bit about Nike and Polar heart rate monitors and see what other users have to say. Then make your decision.  I believe it is clear what I would do. I agree that Nike sells their name.  But you would think that they’d only do it with quality products to avoid ruining their name.  The fact that Nike sells MP3 players is pretty funny!  Anyway, I want to thank you very much for your post.  You’ve got me seriously reconsidering the Nike Triax C6.  Basically if someone in this group can’t say something good about it then I’m very suspicious. I’ve been looking at the Polar S210.  There are a few things I don’t like about Polar: – Must send watch to Polar for battery replacement (expensive and should be unecessary for a properly designed watch) – They don’t honor warranties from watches sold new on ebay, which I think is not good This means I have to buy it from a dealer at a higher price.  All that said, I’m convinced the Polar watches are of good quality and I prefer to spend $60 more and get Polar than the Nike.  In the past I’ve bought cheap and bought twice. Thanks again Michael

You can’t beat Polar for quality. I had one for almost 8 years, hoping it would die so I could justify getting a new one. It finally did die in a hard rain. I then bought an S-610i from http://www.polar4less.com. I’ve been very pleased with this model. Phil M. — If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you. -Chuang Tzu

Response:

I agree that Nike sells their name.  But you would think that they’d only do it with quality products to avoid ruining their name.

They are money whores, the put their name on the cheapest junk possible. Nike sucks.

Response:

I can’t tell you anything about the C6.  But my experience with the Nike Triax 100, Nike’s first speed and distance monitor, was horrible.  The For what it is worth, this is my experience with Nike electronics.  I personally will never buy one of their products again.  The C6 could be a much better product, I don’t know.  I suggest that you do your home work. Google a little bit about Nike and Polar heart rate monitors and see what other users have to say.  Then make your decision.  I believe it is clear what I would do.

I agree that Nike sells their name.  But you would think that they’d only do it with quality products to avoid ruining their name.  The fact that Nike sells MP3 players is pretty funny!  Anyway, I want to thank you very much for your post.  You’ve got me seriously reconsidering the Nike Triax C6.  Basically if someone in this group can’t say something good about it then I’m very suspicious. I’ve been looking at the Polar S210.  There are a few things I don’t like about Polar: – Must send watch to Polar for battery replacement (expensive and should be unecessary for a properly designed watch) – They don’t honor warranties from watches sold new on ebay, which I think is not good This means I have to buy it from a dealer at a higher price.  All that said, I’m convinced the Polar watches are of good quality and I prefer to spend $60 more and get Polar than the Nike.  In the past I’ve bought cheap and bought twice. Thanks again Michael

Response:

I can’t tell you anything about the C6.  But my experience with the Nike Triax 100, Nike’s first speed and distance monitor, was horrible.  The product concept was very appealing (and I still believe it is), but the actual execution was a disaster.  Out of the box it had a wide range of problems.  My local running store was very helpful, they replaced the system (watch and/or sensor) about 4 or 5 times.  During the two years of warranty I returned the product also to the service center (its a contractor for Nike) for repair at least 5 times, which cost me roughly $100 on shipping fees, not to talk about the time I was without my monitor.  Two months before the warranty expired, my dealer gave me a new watch, the warranty service replaced the sensor again with a brand new one.  About one week after the warranty expired, the two months old sensor failed again.  I called Nike (Nike apparently doesn’t want to receive customer calls, they don’t provide phone numbers, but the helpful techie at the warranty service center gave me a phone number).  I talked to a "product manager" (he appeared to be very much bothered by my call), explained the situation, and asked what Nike would be willing to do to help me.  He tried to get rid of me, referred me back to the repair service.  I stood my course, saying that this would be a Nike decision, not a repair contractor decision.  The answer was finally a very clear "nothing".  I got no apology, no explanation, no "we are sorry for the problems you had with our product",  just one word: "nothing"). I said thank you, hung up, went online and ordered the Garmin Forerunner 201.  I now own a $250 wrist watch with the Nike logo on it.  By the way, my experience with the Triax 100 is not unique.  Several runners in my training group had very similar problems. For what it is worth, this is my experience with Nike electronics.  I personally will never buy one of their products again.  The C6 could be a much better product, I don’t know.  I suggest that you do your home work. Google a little bit about Nike and Polar heart rate monitors and see what other users have to say.  Then make your decision.  I believe it is clear what I would do. Manfred

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I run 2-3x a week for about 30 minutes, to relieve stress, stay in shape, and keep the pounds off.  I’d like to buy a HRM, and from what I’ve seen Nike and Polar seem to be the best.  I think Polar seems to be better but they’re more expensive and the battery change can be a problem.  I have read up on the Nike watches and I think the Triax C6 seems to be the best match for me and my wife (we’ll be sharing the watch, she does cardio and weights at the gym).  I like the multiple heart rate zones and the calorie counter features.  I was suprised that when I search google there are only 3 posts mentioning this watch.  It doesn’t seem to be very popular.  I’m curious if someone can give me some advice here, is the Triax C6 ok?  Or should I spend some more money for a Polar (if so which model)? Thanks Michael

Response:

BVuy the Polar, the nike watches and HRM’s are junk.

Response:

I run 2-3x a week for about 30 minutes, to relieve stress, stay in shape, and keep the pounds off.  I’d like to buy a HRM, and from what I’ve seen Nike and Polar seem to be the best.  I think Polar seems to be better but they’re more expensive and the battery change can be a problem.  I have read up on the Nike watches and I think the Triax C6 seems to be the best match for me and my wife (we’ll be sharing the watch, she does cardio and weights at the gym).  I like the multiple heart rate zones and the calorie counter features.  I was suprised that when I search google there are only 3 posts mentioning this watch.  It doesn’t seem to be very popular.  I’m curious if someone can give me some advice here, is the Triax C6 ok?  Or should I spend some more money for a Polar (if so which model)? Thanks Michael

Response:

which of the following might be helpful… mp3 player?

For you maybe, I prefer no music. cool watch with gps and HR monitor?

If you want to part with upwards of $200. padded socks, or maybe coolmax socks?

I prefer the coolmax socks. I like the Ironman socks and the DeFeet socks. coolmax shorts and/or t-shirt?

Synthetic shorts are a must. I am fine in a cotton t shirt most of the time. When it gets really hot I’ll wear a singlet either cotton or synthetic. if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time, I probably don’t need any powerbars or gel, do I?

No. do you guys run in a jock, or just briefs?

Briefs that are in the shorts. I’ve already got oakleys, so I’m covered there.  I’m so pumped to get out and start jogging.

Whatcha waitin fer? Andy

Response:

Hi I recommend an MP3 player. I recently bought the Rio Cali – great little device that keeps you entertained while you run. Check it my review of it at: http://www.digital-music-guide.com/rio-cali-mp3-player-review.html Best Regards Gary Hendricks www.digital-music-guide.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – which of the following might be helpful… mp3 player? cool watch with gps and HR monitor? padded socks, or maybe coolmax socks? coolmax shorts and/or t-shirt? if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time, I probably don’t need any powerbars or gel, do I? do you guys run in a jock, or just briefs? I’ve already got oakleys, so I’m covered there.  I’m so pumped to get out and start jogging.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I recommend an MP3 player. I recently bought the Rio Cali – great little device that keeps you entertained while you run. Check it my review of it at: http://www.digital-music-guide.com/rio-cali-mp3-player-review.html Best Regards Gary Hendricks www.digital-music-guide.com which of the following might be helpful… mp3 player? cool watch with gps and HR monitor? padded socks, or maybe coolmax socks? coolmax shorts and/or t-shirt? if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time, I probably don’t need any powerbars or gel, do I? do you guys run in a jock, or just briefs? I’ve already got oakleys, so I’m covered there.  I’m so pumped to get out and start jogging.

Don’t buy anything new for yourself until you can catch Pier-14’s six year old son (posted elsewhere). If you’re only running 30" at a time you almost don’t have to change clothes. It was smart to buy the Oakleys first though. You’ll want to hide your face when some grandma goes buy you on a 15K training run as you’re greasing your crotch at the 2K mark in your big run.

Response:

as you’re greasing your crotch

I bet you grease up that area frequently too…

Response:

which of the following might be helpful… mp3 player? cool watch with gps and HR monitor? padded socks, or maybe coolmax socks? coolmax shorts and/or t-shirt? if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time, I probably don’t need any powerbars or gel, do I? do you guys run in a jock, or just briefs? I’ve already got oakleys, so I’m covered there.  I’m so pumped to get out and start jogging.

All you need is a good pair of shoes. Now stop procrastinating and just get out there! Bjorn

Response:

All you need is a good pair of shoes. Now stop procrastinating and just get out there!

Who let the dickhead in?

Response:

if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time,

You can get by with almost anything if you’re running for 30 min. I ran my short distances (30 min) in cutoffs or sweats and t-shirt or sweatshirt for about 20+ yrs. If you’re going to run longer, then you can get some synthetic gear. The longer you run or the more you carry with you, the more attention you need to pay to using synthetics (cotton is bad for longer runs) and weight. I’m still using Wal-mart polyester shorts since they’re the only ones that work reasonably well for me. (I’ve looked for something different but can’t find what I’m looking for.) Unless you’re going to run barefoot, the only thing really needed for running is an appropriate pair of shoes and enough clothes to keep from getting arrested, unless of course, you’re doing a bare buns race. But you can make running as techie as you want. Dot

Response:

It looks as if we’ve lost one….to the boring side.

Response:

Though I know others will disagree, MP3 player definitely. It really helped me get going in the beginning.

You’d BETTER be REAL good looking if you’re this dumb.

Response:

Running shorts are lined.

Donovans have a pad there for days when he’s on his period.

Response:

Where would you be without rec.running? I don’t know where you live, but if it’s hot and humid there, you should definitely buy coolmax (or something like it) shorts and shirts/singlets. Do NOT wear cotton, unless you like being drenched in cold sweat. A powerbar can never hurt, but you certainly don’t need it. You’re going to have to figure out the jock strap question on your own. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – which of the following might be helpful… mp3 player? cool watch with gps and HR monitor? padded socks, or maybe coolmax socks? coolmax shorts and/or t-shirt? if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time, I probably don’t need any powerbars or gel, do I? do you guys run in a jock, or just briefs? I’ve already got oakleys, so I’m covered there.  I’m so pumped to get out and start jogging.

Response:

which of the following might be helpful… mp3 player?

Maybe, if you like music. I’d recommend a solid state model. e.g. Nike PSA, Rio Cali. cool watch with gps and HR monitor?

Not unless you know why you need it. padded socks, or maybe coolmax socks?

Yes. coolmax shorts and/or t-shirt?

Yes. Get them from a running place. You only need one of each to start with — you can hand-wash and they dry overnight. if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time, I probably don’t need any powerbars or gel, do I?

No. do you guys run in a jock, or just briefs?

Running shorts are lined. You don’t need underwear. Wind briefs are useful in the winter, but no need to worry about that yet. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

which of the following might be helpful… mp3 player? cool watch with gps and HR monitor? padded socks, or maybe coolmax socks? coolmax shorts and/or t-shirt? if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time, I probably don’t need any powerbars or gel, do I? do you guys run in a jock, or just briefs? I’ve already got oakleys, so I’m covered there.  I’m so pumped to get out and start jogging.

Response:

Though I know others will disagree, MP3 player definitely. It really helped me get going in the beginning. The cool watch (accelerometer, not GPS) with HRM sure does help out too, but I would put it second on the list. The socks…I always bought really thick Thor-lo’s until I discovered the thinner ones. Much better… I have Coolmax shirts, but T-Shirts will work just as well for 30 minutes. Ixnay on the bars and gels for now. Just my 2 cents.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – which of the following might be helpful… mp3 player? cool watch with gps and HR monitor? padded socks, or maybe coolmax socks? coolmax shorts and/or t-shirt? if I’m only running like 30 minutes at a time, I probably don’t need any powerbars or gel, do I? do you guys run in a jock, or just briefs? I’ve already got oakleys, so I’m covered there.  I’m so pumped to get out and start jogging.

Response:

I’ve used a Fitsense for about a year now and I am getting reasonably accurate & consistent speed/mileage readings (less than 2% variance measured against known distances).  However, it took me months to figure out that I need to place the foot pod at EXACTLY the same spot on the SAME shoes in order to get the same reading(s) for a particular route.  I don’t know why the manufacturer doesn’t make this clear (or maybe I missed it?) on the instruction booklet. Bert Houston

Response:

Any thoughts on how the Nike SDM would do on recording distances accurately over choppy singletrack which causes a great variation in stride length and style?  For example, when going down difficult sections (especially on snow) I often do a type of gallop instead of a regular stride.  In this type of running, one foot does not pass the other foot much if at all.  Using this downhill style you don’t fall, even on ice.  Also I’m assuming the GPSs don’t work very well with a great deal of tree cover found on many trails. Any trail runners have experience with the SDM (or other unit) or have found a good way to get distances on trails, or even off-trail?

A unit like the SDM will probably not give you very good results on uneven trail surfaces. Your best bet would be to get some sort of GPS unit that allows you to upload the tracks. You can then use computer software to "retouch" the tracklog.  This will work fine for logging milage, as long as you just have sporadic dropouts (as opposed to not being able to get a lock at all). Keep in mind that people do use GPS units for hiking all the time, so they shouldn’t be completely useless on trails.  Neither type of unit is good enough to use as a "speedometer" IMO. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Out of all the people on the group I would never expect our resident type-A detail freak to post this! Hmmm…I thought that was Doug.

Innocent! INNOCENT! -DF

Response:

Does anyone have advice or reviews on speed and distance devices?  I think that I would prefer one with GPS rather than the pedometer versions from Nike or Polar.  I would assume they are more accurate.  The issue is the size of the GPS receiver. Thoughts?

Any thoughts on how the Nike SDM would do on recording distances accurately over choppy singletrack which causes a great variation in stride length and style?  For example, when going down difficult sections (especially on snow) I often do a type of gallop instead of a regular stride.  In this type of running, one foot does not pass the other foot much if at all.  Using this downhill style you don’t fall, even on ice.  Also I’m assuming the GPSs don’t work very well with a great deal of tree cover found on many trails. Any trail runners have experience with the SDM (or other unit) or have found a good way to get distances on trails, or even off-trail? – Tony

Response:

Does anyone have advice or reviews on speed and distance devices?  I think that I would prefer one with GPS rather than the pedometer versions from Nike or Polar.  I would assume they are more accurate.  The issue is the size of the GPS receiver. Thoughts?

I have a Garmin Forerunner 201.  It is big, but hardly bulky.  I have found it very useful.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Exactly. Both are accurate enough for recording training milage Neither is accurate enough to meet the same standards as a certified course. I’m not sure why one would want better than 1% error anyway. Out of all the people on the group I would never expect our resident type-A detail freak to post this! (joking aside, it wouldn’t bother me, either – but I am sure many people would want/expect perfection  for whatever reason). Because they’re obsessive-compulsive. Seems to be a common trait among runners.  This could be more generally a trait of certain types of athletes. I’ve noticed that several of the people on the weightlifting newsgroups have this obsessive-compulsive thing too. Maybe this sort of attention to detail is associated with consistency, which is assocaited with long term success (success in this context just means sticking to it)

     Weightlifting is very easy to measure one’s workload.  RepxSetsxWeight – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Roger is unique in his lack of obsessive-compulsiveness. But I wonder if he was like this when he was in his prime, or if he was just like every other obsessive-compulsive runner. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Out of all the people on the group I would never expect our resident type-A detail freak to post this! Hmmm…I thought that was Doug.

When it comes to the ladies, perhaps!  hehe cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Exactly. Both are accurate enough for recording training milage Neither is accurate enough to meet the same standards as a certified course. I’m not sure why one would want better than 1% error anyway. Out of all the people on the group I would never expect our resident type-A detail freak to post this! (joking aside, it wouldn’t bother me, either – but I am sure many people would want/expect perfection  for whatever reason). Because they’re obsessive-compulsive. Seems to be a common trait among runners.

Agreed – perhaps moreso with very competitive runners, though. It’s probable that the competitive urge is linked to type-A personality, judging from what I’ve experienced. Obviously there are exceptions, but it seems clear that it takes a certain mindset to work as hard as some do to achieve their goals. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

but who cares? – Linda

Indeed.

Response:

Exactly. Both are accurate enough for recording training milage Neither is accurate enough to meet the same standards as a certified course. I’m not sure why one would want better than 1% error anyway. Out of all the people on the group I would never expect our resident type-A detail freak to post this! (joking aside, it wouldn’t bother me, either – but I am sure many people would want/expect perfection  for whatever reason).

Because they’re obsessive-compulsive. Seems to be a common trait among runners.  This could be more generally a trait of certain types of athletes. I’ve noticed that several of the people on the weightlifting newsgroups have this obsessive-compulsive thing too. Maybe this sort of attention to detail is associated with consistency, which is assocaited with long term success (success in this context just means sticking to it) Roger is unique in his lack of obsessive-compulsiveness. But I wonder if he was like this when he was in his prime, or if he was just like every other obsessive-compulsive runner. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Roger is unique in his lack of obsessive-compulsiveness. But I wonder if he was like this when he was in his prime, or if he was just like every other obsessive-compulsive runner.

You have to ask?   I was just like you.   And what’s worse, you’ll end up just like me.

Response:

Out of all the people on the group I would never expect our resident type-A detail freak to post this!

Hmmm…I thought that was Doug. Phil M. — If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you. -Chuang Tzu

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This has been answered a lot but I have to add my $.02 because I LOVE my Nike SDM – my hubby has the Timex Garmin and by the time he adds that GPS unit and his radio – he might as well but running with weights in each hand. He started out with the SDM  and then went to the GPS.  I love the SDM and it is really accurate – assuming that the tracks I"ve measured it on are accurate.  I mean, we might be talking a small variance of .05 +/- but who cares? Exactly. Both are accurate enough for recording training milage Neither is accurate enough to meet the same standards as a certified course. I’m not sure why one would want better than 1% error anyway.

Out of all the people on the group I would never expect our resident type-A detail freak to post this! (joking aside, it wouldn’t bother me, either – but I am sure many people would want/expect perfection  for whatever reason). cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

This has been answered a lot but I have to add my $.02 because I LOVE my Nike SDM – my hubby has the Timex Garmin and by the time he adds that GPS unit and his radio – he might as well but running with weights in each hand. He started out with the SDM  and then went to the GPS.  I love the SDM and it is really accurate – assuming that the tracks I"ve measured it on are accurate.  I mean, we might be talking a small variance of .05 +/- but who cares?

Exactly. Both are accurate enough for recording training milage Neither is accurate enough to meet the same standards as a certified course. I’m not sure why one would want better than 1% error anyway. Might come in handy for measuring courses for intervals I suppose — but unless you do these on a track, factors like incline and terrain can easily have more effect on your times than the 1% measuring error. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Does anyone have advice or reviews on speed and distance devices?  I think that I would prefer one with GPS rather than the pedometer versions from Nike or Polar.  I would assume they are more accurate.  The issue is the size of the GPS receiver.

Both are quite accurate. I wouldn’t say that GPS is any more accurate. I have a "proper" GPS unit, and I think my fitsense is more accurate than it. I suggest using google. THere has already been a lot of discussion in this forum. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

This has been answered a lot but I have to add my $.02 because I LOVE my Nike SDM – my hubby has the Timex Garmin and by the time he adds that GPS unit and his radio – he might as well but running with weights in each hand. He started out with the SDM  and then went to the GPS.  I love the SDM and it is really accurate – assuming that the tracks I"ve measured it on are accurate.  I mean, we might be talking a small variance of .05 +/- but who cares? – Linda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have advice or reviews on speed and distance devices?  I think that I would prefer one with GPS rather than the pedometer versions from Nike or Polar.  I would assume they are more accurate.  The issue is the size of the GPS receiver. Thoughts?

Response:

I love the SDM and it is really accurate – assuming that the tracks I"ve measured it on are accurate.  I mean, we might be talking a small variance of .05 +/- but who cares?

Not to play devil’s advocate, but I’m sure lots of people do. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

I’ve used the Garmin Forerunner 201. It is a good alternative to the Timex GPS, for instance, where you have to strap a pod the size of a hockey puck to your arm. The Forerunner is a little bigger (wider) than a watch. I’ve also used the Nike Elite. Both of them are pretty accurate. The thing to note is that the Garmin can be affected by trees and, in general, not having a clear view of the sky. I would have thought GPS would be more accurate, but a couple of times I ran the same course and the Garmin came up with different mileage (not by a lot, but still…). The Garmin also has the Virtual Partner feature which is very cool. The Nike needs to be calibrated, but right out of the box it is really accurate. You won’t even know the pod is on your foot and you get the benefit of having a HRM too (although Nike sells one with only S+D, I think it is the V10). Ultimately, I think I will be getting the Nike. The Polar s625x is out or will be out very soon as well, which is like the Nike but with altimeter too.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have advice or reviews on speed and distance devices?  I think that I would prefer one with GPS rather than the pedometer versions from Nike or Polar.  I would assume they are more accurate.  The issue is the size of the GPS receiver. Thoughts?

Response:

Does anyone have advice or reviews on speed and distance devices?  I think that I would prefer one with GPS rather than the pedometer versions from Nike or Polar.  I would assume they are more accurate.  The issue is the size of the GPS receiver. Thoughts?

Response:

Last night Allen Webb (High School record holder in the Mile and 1500m, and current Nike runner) won the 1500m in the Olympic Trials, sending him to the Athens Olympics next month.   Anyone watch the race? Webb made a move with about 300m left and pulled away from the field