Chicago Fatality: Followup

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Question:

And to continue on your thread…..people who do *epic* events or activities in search of that *self-fulfillment* are not necessarily better people than those who do not.

Very true and I don’t think this was really suggested. As an "epic" person(wow, sounds like a real chest thumper but not my choice of word <g), it’s very difficult to articulate why I do them. Very simply, I prefer to test myself. Ask a 100 people why they do these and you’ll get 100 different answers. *Self fulfillment* always carries with it an element of *self indulgence*. This is not inherently bad. But it is also not inherently more valuable that standing *on the sidelines*.

IMHO "self indulgence" has a pejorative flair and I don’t understand what the sideline statement was in reference to. There aren’t many runners that don’t hold the folks on the sidelines with respect. It’s very possible I missed your point. — These Opinions Are Mine!

Response:

So what are we supposed to do? Sit on a barstool for the rest of our lives? There are risks in everyday life. If I bit the bullet on a run or in a race, so what? At least I was doing something I loved! blah,blah

I recall the Neil Young lyrics from Rust Never Sleeps, "Better to burn out than fade away" I know which way I would rather go. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

And to continue on your thread…..people who do *epic* events or activities in search of that *self-fulfillment* are not necessarily better people than those who do not. *Self fulfillment* always carries with it an element of *self indulgence*. This is not inherently bad. But it is also not inherently more valuable that standing *on the sidelines*. Rick Gerwin

Absolutely. To each his/her own. Mike "Just don’t call me crazy" Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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| *anti-exercisers* who say "see, I told you so", and the other is the runners They should really be paying attention to the numbers. It’s so rare that marathoners die that those who do make the news. Meanwhile, thousands of couch potatoes expire every day. Part of the problem is in people’s risk assessment. Choosing to run a marathon is different from sitting back and letting things happen, and people believe that the risks are much higher (as is the "fault") for something untoward’s happening in a chosen activity. There is a good article on this in this month’s Skeptical Inquirer.

Response:

t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marathon running cannot be rationalized on the basis of health. That is not to say that it is unhealthy per se, but the amount of training involved and the effort itself far exceeds that which is needed for optimum health benefits. Marathon running is an exercise in self-fulfillment. It is not the only physical activity that is both self-fulfilling *and* that contains an element of physical risk. There are a lot more, and really no need to list them. Testing oneself in physical endeavors is part of human nature, IMO. The person who decides to run a marathon accepts those risks–and, really, the risk is fairly low. Testing oneself in this way is not *ridiculous* or *irrational*. Good summation, Rick. Doing a marathon is not a matter of physical health, but of accomplishment. And it’s not even the riskiest of the "fulfilling" things people do. <I would not jump out of a perfectly good airplane, but I understand why others do. We have to accept those risks when we compete. Those on the sideline who ask why folks do something like a marathon/Ironman/mountain climbing/sky diving/cave diving never understand the reasons given. They can’t fathom why we choose to live outside the cocoon offered by modern society or risk our health <or even life in recreational endeavors. But some of us have to find the answer to "How far can I go, how fast can I go?" or simply, "Can I do it?"

Response:

I heard that the woman who died had a personal trainer and "ran 3 to 5 miles every day". Does anybody know if this is correct? Did anybody see her hometown newspaper from Littleton Colorado?

Some of your questions have already been answered on this thread. If your reader doesn’t have access to recent posts, then maybe you can get them via Deja News. Luck, Bob

Response:

I’d much rather die doing something I love than dying while laying on the couch. Who is saying to lay on your couch for the rest of your life? I think the point of the article is that only those people should run the marathon who have trained long enough for it. Those who run the marathon only for the sake of completing an "ultimate test of endurance", should rethink their priorities.

Why? Who are you to tell someone that their dream is wrong? That there is something wrong with their priorities? There are many reasons for running. Health is one of them. Self-fullfilment is another. There is nothing wrong with just running moderately for health. But don’t presume to pass judgement on other’s dreams. I’m one of the first to advise moderation in training and try to show folks how to achieve goals safely and without injury. And I try to point them toward reasonable goals that are achievable for their level. But I would never, ever presume to tell someone not to go for their dream race. I’ll add a dose of reality – but not a bucket of cold water. Mike "Dreamer" Tennent

Response:

Marathon running cannot be rationalized on the basis of health. That is not to say that it is unhealthy per se, but the amount of training involved and the effort itself far exceeds that which is needed for optimum health benefits. Marathon running is an exercise in self-fulfillment. It is not the only physical activity that is both self-fulfilling *and* that contains an element of physical risk. There are a lot more, and really no need to list them. Testing oneself in physical endeavors is part of human nature, IMO. The person who decides to run a marathon accepts those risks–and, really, the risk is fairly low. Testing oneself in this way is not *ridiculous* or *irrational*.

Good summation, Rick. Doing a marathon is not a matter of physical health, but of accomplishment. And it’s not even the riskiest of the "fulfilling" things people do. <I would not jump out of a perfectly good airplane, but I understand why others do. We have to accept those risks when we compete. Those on the sideline who ask why folks do something like a marathon/Ironman/mountain climbing/sky diving/cave diving never understand the reasons given. They can’t fathom why we choose to live outside the cocoon offered by modern society or risk our health <or even life in recreational endeavors. But some of us have to find the answer to "How far can I go, how fast can I go?" or simply, "Can I do it?" Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

Response:

I heard that the woman who died had a personal trainer and "ran 3 to 5 miles every day". Does anybody know if this is correct? Did anybody see her hometown newspaper from Littleton Colorado? It would seem to me that if she ran 4 or 5 times per week instead of every day, and if she had long runs of 18, 19 and 20 miles, and if she drank water in large enough quantities to flush all the sodium and potassium out of her system on her training runs, she would have noticed a problem at that time. Is it possible she did something different on Marathon day than she did during training? -Dan Ashley Web site for 11 minute pace group: www.welcome.to.ElevenMinuteGroup The thing that sticks in my mind is the 5 fold increase of a heart event by marathon runner as stated in one of the posted articles. On the other hand, those endorphins and the feeling of accomplishment are powerful attractors. Bob

Response:

The simple term over drinking comes up short. It’s not just a volume issue but lack of nutrient. Just a small excerpt from Dr J’s web, who is a favorite of mine. Hyponatremia — what is it? Hyponatremia means a low concentration of sodium in the blood. When it occurs in triathletes, it usually happens during long or ultra-distance races in the heat but may occur anytime. It is estimated that approximately 30% of the finishers of the Hawaii Ironman are both hyponatremic and dehydrated. The longer the race, the greater the risk of hyponatremia. What causes it? The exact mechanisms are not fully understood and I won’t go into the complex physiologic pathways of sodium and water balance. The simplest answer is that lost sweat (salt and water) is replaced by ingested water (no salt). This dilutes the sodium in the bloodstream, and hyponatremia results. Longer races carry a greater risk of hyponatremia because of the total amount of sweat lost. During exercise in the heat, more salt is lost in sweat per hour than is usually replaced by food and fluids, including sports drinks. Your body can tolerate a degree of imbalance for a short period of time, but it may decompensate if this continues for too long. Sweat contains between 2.25 – 3.4 grams of salt per liter, and the rate of perspiration in a long, hot race can easily average 1 liter per hour. So, for a 12 hour race, one could lose approximately 27 to 41 grams of salt. If the athlete replaces only the lost water and has minimal salt intake, hyponatremia can result. Visit http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenky/ For Sports Med Tent information. You can also visit Ultrafit a company that sells Karls caps and

http://www.ultrafit-endurance.com./ As an experiment of one I used the caps this year for a 50 mile race. It wasn’t a particularly hot day but the Sport drink that was served was one that made my stomach wretch at sight. To supplement the plain water and the potatoes dipped in salt, I used the caps. Never so much as a twinge of dehydration or upset stomach. Also used the SUCCEED" ULtra every 16 miles from my wife – I prefer a maltodextrin based fluid then the fructose, sucrose based yuckta, i.e. gatorade, et al. Succeed. This site was given to me by Akabill (age 54), who recently

– These Opinions Are Mine!

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Would you mind posting the exact place in this extensive site that speaks to this? I’m not having any luck. Thank you. — GK FrodoJRR at Interaccess dot

Response:

The thing that sticks in my mind is the 5 fold increase of a heart event by marathon runner as stated in one of the posted articles. On the other hand, those endorphins and the feeling of accomplishment are powerful attractors. Bob

Response:

I’d much rather die doing something I love than dying while laying on the couch.

Who is saying to lay on your couch for the rest of your life? I think the point of the article is that only those people should run the marathon who have trained long enough for it. Those who run the marathon only for the sake of completing an "ultimate test of endurance", should rethink their priorities. I think running done in moderation is good for you, but if it comes to the point where you feel it is killing you, then you should stop. Faraz.

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I have to agree with running in moderation. I had some strange health problems after becoming obsessed with running and doing two 20-milers in a week. I was forced to stop running completely after that week because I was so dizzy I couldn’t run. I had never had problems running in the past until I overdid it. Please be careful!! Tracy

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Good advice. I would never attempt 2 20-milers in a week. Good thing you slowed down! Still, a good Marathon after a Higdon or Galloway training program once or twice a year is very refreshing. — GK FrodoJRR at Interaccess dot

Response:

The loss of electrolytes from overdrinking is a more common sympton than one might think. Usually we cramp out before something serious happens, leading us to think we needed more water when the opposite may be true. Visit http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenky/ For Sports Med Tent information. You can also visit Ultrafit a company that sells Karls caps and Succeed. This site was given to me by Akabill (age 54), who recently won the Run to the Sun a 33 mile race from sea level to 10,000 ft. As for me I rather live like a lion than die like a lamb. Happy trail running from MPRRC in Hawaii. Vic

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know what I have to say to this post? It’s is informative and I was interested in reading it, but I do not agree with some of the words in it. The lady (Ruth) who was earlier upset about a similar posting I had thought jumped the gun in getting upset and anxious. I was told once that EVERY TIME a person TAKES A STEP they risk breaking their back. Is this going to stop us from walking every day? No. When we started to walk, we were careful and learned how to do it well over time. That is what running is. It must be dangerous to run 26.2 miles if you are not trained for it (I agree with the two year base and the need for consistant mileage). I face my running as something that I want to do wisely, because I want to do it when I’m 60+. Running is not something to be scared of, but it is also not something to do wrecklessly. Have fun, enjoy and work up the miles. Running is *GREAT* for you! The following appears in today’s Chicago Tribune. I post it here to give us all something to think about but not to scare anyone. It’s rather long, but it’s dealing with a serious subject matter and It’s one of the better pieces I’ve ever seen in the popular press. I guess everything we do has some risks.

Incidents like this tend to polarize people. One pole is the *anti-exercisers* who say "see, I told you so", and the other is the runners who jump to rationize and mimimize the event as though any discussion at all of the potential hazards of running is sacriligious. Marathon running cannot be rationalized on the basis of health. That is not to say that it is unhealthy per se, but the amount of training involved and the effort itself far exceeds that which is needed for optimum health benefits. Marathon running is an exercise in self-fulfillment. It is not the only physical activity that is both self-fulfilling *and* that contains an element of physical risk. There are a lot more, and really no need to list them. Testing oneself in physical endeavors is part of human nature, IMO. The person who decides to run a marathon accepts those risks–and, really, the risk is fairly low. Testing oneself in this way is not *ridiculous* or *irrational*. Rick Gerwin

Response:

You know what I have to say to this post? It’s is informative and I was interested in reading it, but I do not agree with some of the words in it. The lady (Ruth) who was earlier upset about a similar posting I had thought jumped the gun in getting upset and anxious. I was told once that EVERY TIME a person TAKES A STEP they risk breaking their back. Is this going to stop us from walking every day? No. When we started to walk, we were careful and learned how to do it well over time. That is what running is. It must be dangerous to run 26.2 miles if you are not trained for it (I agree with the two year base and the need for consistant mileage). I face my running as something that I want to do wisely, because I want to do it when I’m 60+. Running is not something to be scared of, but it is also not something to do wrecklessly. Have fun, enjoy and work up the miles. Running is *GREAT* for you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The following appears in today’s Chicago Tribune. I post it here to give us all something to think about but not to scare anyone. It’s rather long, but it’s dealing with a serious subject matter and It’s one of the better pieces I’ve ever seen in the popular press. I guess everything we do has some risks.

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Although fitness experts point out that only 4 or 5 road-race runners die a year out of an estimated 6.3 million finishers, many physicians wonder if the grueling trial of a 26-mile marathon is worth the risk.

It is. You have 1:4000 of dieing in a auto accident per year. You have 1:25000 of dieing in a marathon (two per year). I’d rather run or climb and die than not run or climb at all.

Response:

The following appears in today’s Chicago Tribune. I post it here to give us all something to think about but not to scare anyone. It’s rather long, but it’s dealing with a serious subject matter and It’s one of the better pieces I’ve ever seen in the popular press. I guess everything we do has some risks. Marathon death stirs questions Chicago race victim dies of heart attack By Jeremy Manier and Julie Deardorff Tribune Staff Writers October 16, 1998 Kelly Barrett entered the Chicago Marathon last Sunday better prepared than many weekend joggers who try on a lark to run the distance. The 43-year-old Chicago Heights native and mother of three saw a personal trainer, ran 3 to 5 miles every morning and had already completed one marathon. But 24 miles into the race, Barrett was found sitting on a curb with her hands on her head, partially disoriented. She was taken to a medical tent where, soon after, she went into cardiac arrest. Barrett never recovered. She died Wednesday afternoon at Northwestern Memorial Hospital, the first fatality in the Chicago Marathon’s 21-year history. An autopsy performed Thursday by the Cook County medical examiner’s office determined that Barrett, of Littleton, Colo., died from an irregular heartbeat caused by a combination of unusually small coronary arteries and an imbalance of sodium and potassium in her bloodstream. Barrett’s heart condition would have been unnoticeable during everyday activities but became dangerous in the course of a marathon, said a spokesman for the medical examiner’s office. Doctors also speculated that she drank too much water in preparation for the race, throwing off the balance of critical minerals in her body. Barrett’s death raises questions that have attended the sudden deaths of famous athletes ranging from marathoner Jim Fixx in 1984 to Olympic sprinter Florence Griffith Joyner in September. Although fitness experts point out that only 4 or 5 road-race runners die a year out of an estimated 6.3 million finishers, many physicians wonder if the grueling trial of a 26-mile marathon is worth the risk. "Moderate exercise is good for you, but intense, severe exercise has never been shown to benefit you in any way," said Dr. Brian Olshansky, a cardiologist and director of the heart rhythm section at Loyola University Medical Center in Maywood. "If someone were to ask me if they should run a marathon for their health, I would say no." Barrett’s brother said he hoped his sister’s tragedy would spur other runners to get a full medical examination before doing any marathon, or possibly to abandon the idea altogether. "Just because some bozo in ancient Greece did it, I don’t see why people (are so hot about it)," said the brother, who asked that his name not be used. "I don’t think people are designed to run that far. And for what? To say you did it? It seems so senseless." While still very rare, such fatalities have marred many of the major marathons, including races in New York, Philadelphia, Columbus, Honolulu, Minneapolis, Houston, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, Los Angeles, New Zealand and Spain. The London Marathon has had four deaths in 18 years. The Marine Corps Marathon has had at least three since 1986. Even runners who make it through a marathon in relatively good shape describe the experience as a minor form of torture. The injuries suffered in Sunday’s race were typical: blisters, cramps, muscle strain, knee pain, hip pain, back pain, foot pain, headaches, dizziness, nausea, bleeding nipples (on both men and women) and chafing. About 300 of the more than 20,000 competitors stopped at one of the aid stations or sought help at the medical tent after the race, according to the marathon’s medical director, Dr. Greg Ewert, a physician at Northwestern. Over the weekend, the Chicago Marathon used 21 ambulances and 16 were assigned to the marathon route. There were 225 to 250 medical personnel on hand, including paramedics, podiatrists and physical therapists. Heat exhaustion, dehydration and hypothermia affected dozens of runners, but the weather conditions this year were relatively good, a far cry from the days when the marathon was held in August at 11 a.m. Ewert said a few other runners complained of chest pains and were sent to the hospital. One person was hospitalized for several days because of heat stroke. "We sent a number of other people to the emergency room because they needed X-rays or were not getting better in the medical tent," Ewert said. "We’ve got a great system in place here and the key thing this year was more (medical staff)." It isn’t just marathons that tax the body. In 1997, a man who hoped to raise research money as a memorial to his 14-year-old daughter who died of cancer, collapsed and died 10 yards before the finish line of a 13-mile race in Hollis, N.H. The San Francisco Examiner Bay to Breakers, a 7.5-mile race has had at least five deaths since 1988. Three years in a row, runners collapsed in the home stretch. In 1994 in the Mrs. T’s Chicago Triathlon, Mike Lanham, 42, collapsed after the 350-yard swim and died of a heart attack. Yet Hal Higdon, a senior writer at Runner’s World and author of numerous books on marathoning, said many people get undeniable health benefits from the preparation they undertake for a marathon. "(Marathons) motivate you to do other things, such as lose weight or stop smoking," Higdon said. "Runners actually change their lifestyles. Even with all the risk factors, it probably does more good than harm." Statistics bear out Higdon’s argument. Dr. Paul Thompson, president of the American College of Sports Medicine, said well-trained marathoners are much less likely to die while running than are more casual joggers. "If you asked me what’s the safest thing to do in the next half-hour, I’d say go to bed alone," Thompson said. "The most dangerous? Running wind sprints on a track. But over the course of your life, those wind sprints will help you live longer." Figures also suggest that races that weed out more vulnerable runners through competitive trials experience fewer fatalities. In Boston, where runners have to qualify, only one person has died in 102 years, in 1996. There were 38,708 competitors that year. The Chicago Area Runners Association now holds training clinics to teach people the smart way to get through the 26.2 mile race. This year CARA had 962 people in its marathon-training program, almost doubling the number from two years ago. But two weeks before the Chicago Marathon, CARA director David Patt said people were calling his office and asking if they had enough training in to do the marathon. One 30-year-old woman called and said her longest run had been 10 miles. Patt discouraged her from running, but she persisted and wanted to know how to

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