Run Run Away

Question:

How true, how true.  As one of those older runners, I was initially afraid of running too hard.  I still don’t do enough really hard interval work, but am convinced that to run fast at any distance you have to spend a very high percentage of your training time at a pace substantially faster than your proposed race pace.  So for me, with an 8:00 pace for a Boston qualifying time, most of my miles have to be 15-45 seconds faster.  I wish I had the confidence in myself to handle 70+ weeks.  Maybe by next year.  It takes longer for us older guys to get up there. [snip] I’ve seen the "slow trap" close on many runners.  As a generalisation, they are older runners, running for fitness.  They trundle down to the track and jog 1 lap, then 4, then more — all at a consistently slow pace.  They enter a race and surprise! They race at the same slow pace. snip good stuff Jennifer

– Regards, Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – << Isn’t the "slow trap" exactly what a continuation of LT* workouts is supposed to avoid? You say you keep some LT workouts in the schedule, but the poster specifically asked about weekly LT workouts.   Not sure if I exactly follow your post, (e.g. difference between "some" and "weekly") but during the base building, I suppose I consider "some" to be once or often twice per week.

Then we agree it is desirable to have at least weekly tempo runs or similar workout (LT) even during base building. I’d rather spend other quality days, if any, on other types of training. The increasing milage has to be included as a source of stress during this phase, so something else has to give. For me it is the VO2 max type workouts, which I find to be the most stressful type. <<  I believe JD would recommend weekly workouts for experienced competitors who never get far out of shape during the off seasons. (Such runners really have no need to rebuild base in the classical sense.) I’m not sure.   Looking to his schedules, base building is pretty much done in an EASY mode.  I didn’t realise he distinguished between "experienced" or "non-experienced" runners.  I briefly discussed this "build-up" period with your wife.  I still don’t know if the Daniels Theory sticks to EASY only.

We are close to Cortland State University, where Jack Daniels coaches, and we have met a number of his former collegiate runners. My comment above is just an impression of what he would recommend for collegiate runners in their off seasons. I’ve never heard him say any of this, nor is it likely to be in his book, which addresses a different audience. — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

Response:

Jennifer and Terry,     Thanks for responding.  I was primarily interested during this time in being able to handle the longer running comfortably and without injury.  I have not run consistently over 40 per week before, and because of a fragile sciatic problem, wanted to be sure I was tolerating the higher mileage before I even thought  of speed.  I do believe the key to my continued improvement at this point will have to involve higher mileage. I have based, LTed and intervaled seriously for a year and a half at the 30-35 range and seem to have maxed out on improvements.       I know what you mean about the "slow trap."  I was running the runs at brisk aerobic, but studiously avoiding anything that was actually uncomfortable.  I did keep fartlek in two of the workouts a week.  (Only enough for the fun of the speed, without the real work). Unfortunately I don’t think they were long enough pickups (at most .5 mile, but usually just 100-200 yards) to allow me to handle sustained fast running.  I guess you get what you pay for.  If I am not going to pay the "speed dues" in training, what can I expect on race day?      I would like to hope that Jen was right and that it was a fluke.  I did have some breathing problems (I have slight exercise asthma in damp conditions, but have never sucked quite this bad in a race before–pardon the pun).  However, my Puritan work ethic says it must be my fault.       Well, I have put the LT workouts back in.  Hopefully they will have a little effect by the 15k.  If nothing else, it will be psychological.        Jennifer, I like the Las Vegas course a lot.  I have run the half there, but not the full.  The course is pretty, if you like desert scenery (many find it boring).  The half course has about 7-8 miles of steady downhill then flat.  It is not super steep in most spots, but is a definite downgrade.  I have heard from friends that the first half of the course is more flat, with some gradual uphill grade, although I can’t personally vouch for that. If you handle downhills without getting too beat up, this is a good, fast course.  The course is straight, with only one section where we go through a series of turns to get from the one long straight street to the next.  The course was well marked and well supported.  The weather is almost always perfect.  The start is cool, sometimes in the 40s, but as soon as the sun comes up warms to the 60s to low 70s.  If you decide to come, let me know.  I’d love to meet you.  I share many of your views. Lori

Response:

[snip] I know what you mean about the "slow trap."  I was running the runs at brisk aerobic, but studiously avoiding anything that was actually uncomfortable.

I’ve seen the "slow trap" close on many runners.  As a generalisation, they are older runners, running for fitness.  They trundle down to the track and jog 1 lap, then 4, then more — all at a consistently slow pace.  They enter a race and surprise! They race at the same slow pace. However, I once saw the "slow trap" close on a very promising college runner. He was a 4:16 miler who decided to run the marathon.  He temporarily ‘resigned’ from the team and began to train for a marathon, running between 110 and 140 miles per weeks with no LT or anerobic miles whatsoever.  He claimed the speed was there and he "periodized" his training to add endurance. His first marathon was low 3s when his potential was probably low 2:30s.  The mistake seemed to be that he was trained to run 1) low 4s in the mile 2) low 7s over a great distance but NOT 3) sub 6 over 26.2 miles. He forgot the LT part of the training. In The Running Formula,  Jack Daniels’s Phase I emphasizes and encourages the slow base building. As Prof. Mc pointed out, perhaps the book is directed toward a difference audience.  Because, I can’t quite imagine Coach Daniels advocating his top college runners to ignore fast running for almost 6-8 weeks! So where am I going with this?  Oh yeah. In a word and in my opinion, periodization TO THE EXTREME sucks.  Periodization per Daniels is (simplified): 1) 6 weeks base 2) 6 weeks tempo 3) 6 weeks tempo + intervals 4) 6 weeks sharpening with tempo + varying intervals. To reiterate earlier comments, if you do nothing but easy running for 6 weeks, you’ve forgotten how to run fast, forgotten how high the heart can beat, forgotten turnover…. But don’t worry (says Daniels) you’ll learn it again in the next 12 weeks.  Hmmm…why forget it in the first place? Better, I think is to follow the original principals of Lydiard: 1:  VARIATION!!  Base build a mix of fast and easy miles building to Lydiard’s optimum 100 mile weeks; Take a look at Peter Snell’s (Lydiard’s student) base building period.  He was doing long, fast, 100m x 30, marathon races at 6 minute pace.  All sorts of stuff. 2:  Strides often and fast! to keep the speed; 3:  Add the hills both up and down (again, fast down to keep the speed) 4:  Add anerobic drills specific to the upcoming race; 5:  Race; 6:  Repeat. Don’t get me wrong.  The Running Formula is a great book and the periodization scheme is very good.  I tried it, but in hindsight, felt that the base building was simply wrong to ignore fast running. As a result, my scheduling is now a simple procedure:  7 days in a week with each day deserving of a purpose.  Two days emphasize AT/LT; one emphasizes endurance; one speed and three is easy paced jogging with strides. [snip] I like the Las Vegas course a lot.  

Alas, it may be too soon.  With my current schedule the likely marathoning will be somewhere between April and June. That is, somewhere between Boston and Grandma’s. Jennifer

Response:

Hi,     I have a question that hopefully someone with a bit more experience might be able to give me some insight on.     Late this summer, coming off a month or so of spotty running, I decided to rebuild my base to prepare for the Las Vegas marathon in February. To that end, I began running longer aerobic runs and building mileage up to 45-50 mpw.  The runs were brisk aerobic, not slow.  I had about 12 weeks of that. During that time I did not do any LT running, which had always been a staple of my training, with one or two LT workouts a week.  I am just moving out of the base phase and into strenghtening now, reintroducing LT and hill repeats.      Last weekend my training partner talked me into doing the Long Beach half.  I knew I was not race-ready but thought that since I had been doing so much longer running (10mi+ runs/3xweek) and felt pretty fit, it would be no problem (yes, I am prone to self-delusion).  I started around my previous hm pace (yes I know — huge mistake), died about 5 miles out, walk/ran the rest of the way in maintaing about a 7:50 pace (slightly faster than aerobic training pace), finishing in 1:42 (previous hm times, 1:36 and 1:34).          I have our annual club race coming up in three weeks, a 15k, in which I normally place in the top 5 for the women, with about a 1:09. Since it is our club run, I like to make a good showing (ego, you know). The question is, how long will it take for the LT to start to improve again.  If I do, one or two LT runs a week, for the next three weeks, will it make a difference by the race (12/9).  I do not want a repeat of the Long Beach fiasco.         A related question:  when you are in your base-building phase, do most of you keep an LT workout in the schedule each week?       Thanks for reading the kind of long post. Lori

Response:

<< I have a question that hopefully someone with a bit more experience might be able to give me some insight on.     Late this summer, coming off a month or so of spotty running, I decided to rebuild my base to prepare for the Las Vegas marathon in February.   I too am considering that marathon, but it seems a bit early. [snip] << The question is, how long will it take for the LT to start to improve again.  If I do, one or two LT runs a week, for the next three weeks, will it make a difference by the race (12/9).  I do not want a repeat of the Long Beach fiasco.   The Long Beach fiasco that you reference, may have been the exception rather than the rule.  Seems odd that you died so early in the race, particularly with 40-50 mile weeks preceeding the race. I doubt, tempo (LT) runs now will affect the 12/9 performance.  It’s too close.  However, they can’t hurt.  My favorites: 3 warm-up; 2 @ 10K pace; 4 cool-down eventually building over several months to 3 warm-up; 5 @ 10K pace; 1 cool-down OR, <<  A related question:  when you are in your base-building phase, do most of you keep an LT workout in the schedule each week?       Thanks for reading the kind of long post. After trying the Jack Daniels periodization method, I’ve rejected it.  It’s too easy to fall in the "SLOW TRAP" during the base building phase.  I think the base building is really an effort to increase weekly mileage, BUT with a continuation of some LT, some long and some Anerobic. Jennifer

Response:

[...] <<  A related question:  when you are in your base-building phase, do most of you keep an LT workout in the schedule each week?      Thanks for reading the kind of long post. After trying the Jack Daniels periodization method, I’ve rejected it.  It’s too easy to fall in the "SLOW TRAP" during the base building phase.  I think the base building is really an effort to increase weekly mileage, BUT with a continuation of some LT, some long and some Anerobic.

Isn’t the "slow trap" exactly what a continuation of LT* workouts is supposed to avoid? You say you keep some LT workouts in the schedule, but the poster specifically asked about weekly LT workouts. I believe JD would recommend weekly workouts for experienced competitors who never get far out of shape during the off seasons. (Such runners really have no need to rebuild base in the classical sense.) Marathon runners may be different, in that a period of markedly decreased milage after an event is recommended. (Would you recommend that?) I also keep weekly rep workouts in the schedule during the off and maintenance seasons. These are low key "fun speed" sessions to keep up some leg speed. 6-8×400 with full 400m jog recovery at mile-3k pace is a favorite. I don’t know how that would scale up to someone who specializes in the marathon. (I mainly race 5k and down, though I have completed 5 marathons kicking and screaming.) I lay off interval (race pace with limited recovery) workouts during off seasons. * (Glossary) LT workout: An LT (Lactate Threshold) workout is run at approximately 15K pace for at least 20 minutes, though variants may run multiple shorter distances. — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

Response:

<< Isn’t the "slow trap" exactly what a continuation of LT* workouts is supposed to avoid? You say you keep some LT workouts in the schedule, but the poster specifically asked about weekly LT workouts.   Not sure if I exactly follow your post, (e.g. difference between "some" and "weekly") but during the base building, I suppose I consider "some" to be once or often twice per week. <<  I believe JD would recommend weekly workouts for experienced competitors who never get far out of shape during the off seasons. (Such runners really have no need to rebuild base in the classical sense.) I’m not sure.   Looking to his schedules, base building is pretty much done in an EASY mode.  I didn’t realise he distinguished between "experienced" or "non-experienced" runners.  I briefly discussed this "build-up" period with your wife.  I still don’t know if the Daniels Theory sticks to EASY only. << Marathon runners may be different,   …in many ways. << in that a period of markedly decreased milage after an event is recommended. (Would you recommend that?) In theory, but then that darn OCD thing kicks in again. [remainder snipped] Jennifer

Response: