Run Run Away

Question:

Hmmmmmmm, how about that newt’s excrement mixed with a virgin trutle’s blood that I’ve heard about? Bob in Kalamazoo Where would you find a virgin trutle? Jennifer

I guess that’s what’s holding me back.  I haven’t figured out the difference between a virgin trutle and a promiscuous one.  Ah!  There’s my problem, I should have been looking for a turtle not a trutle.  I know what turtles look like, but I’m not up on my trutle identification. Bob in Kalamazoo

Response:

But what basis do you have for attributing your gains to creatine? Did you continue to train, eat, sleep, etc, exactly as you did before taking it?  If not,  there is no more evidence that creatine did it than moon pies. This isn’t a flame, but too many times folks change several of things in thier regimen and then attribute gains to one. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03

As Sam has pointed out, creatine is HEAVILY studied in the scientific community, and there is quite a bit of scientific evidence for some performance gains at 400 meters and less, possibly 800, some of which can be found in Kreider’s paper listed in my previous post. I started using it in the middle of track training last year.  My training did not change (basically 1 hard track session every 3 days, track repeats of 100, 300, or 600-800 meters with long rest, and weightlifting on the "rest" days). In the gym I found results in the first week, but results on the track took longer (many weeks), and then I got a couple tenths in 100 meter speed (a big deal for 800 and shorter racing).  In the offseason, I got about a 25% gain in squat weight (2 sets of 5 from "Sportspeed") between pre-creatine (last year) and with creatine (this off-season), and I seem to be getting more pure speed on the track this year. My experience is just as Sam said: Creatine does not make you faster directly, but you get faster as you are able to get stronger in the gym, so it takes time to show up on the track (you need a LARGE gain in actual strength before it shows up in sprint speed). But I serious doubt that more than about 3 people (all basically sprinter types) on this NG are likely to get any benefit from creatine. People here would probably be better off looking into HMB (which I understand that a large number of Ironman pros have been using). Lyndon Herzberg

Response:

My bet – FIFA is gonna ban it before the next World Cup, and IAF and others will probably follow their steps…

        How will you test for it?  Set some arbitrary urine creatinine level like IAAF did for T/E in women?  Yeah that is a sound idea.  

Response:

Come on, I know we all want to believe there’s that miracle drug that will really help you run faster and longer,

  Actually, I don’t.  I’m quite happy with the apparent fact that there’s darn little you can do other than train harder and/or smarter in order to run faster and longer. If a distance runner takes 10% off a PR, then we all know to credit the effort/training.   Those areas in which drugs really can be significantly beneficial to performance seem to turn in to running arguments about who was on the drugs vs. who merely got caught.   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

Come on, I know we all want to believe there’s that miracle drug that will really help you run faster and longer, but let’s admit it – no such substance exist…

Good stuff snipped  But for folks here on "rec".running, where 90% are recreational runners who don’t even try to push for better times, use of some drug that allegedly might have serious health damage is just plain stupid… The fact that pharmacy industry is trying to sell it as "nutrition supplement" doesn’t make it right either… We all might as well use steroids to improve those 30-minute 5k’s into 29-minute 5k’s Let’s admit it – we are just looking for ways to improve ourselves as athletes by "paying our way" through it, instead of earning it old-fashioned way – by actually TRAINING!!! And that is even more troublesome…  Oleg

Well, I sat here and I read Oleg’s post and thought, "No way, most of the people on this news group would never take the chance with anything like that.  We aren’t stupid enought to take something unproven like creatine, just because it ‘might’ improve our times a little bit."  But then I thought about it and I have to admit, I do read about any new gimmick that comes along, and I do consider buying into it.  Faster shoes, better nutrition supplements, whatever.  And I’m not that competitive.  Like I’ve said here before, I do speedwork "occasionally", but not seriously.  My running and racing are for fun.  So if I’m not willing to do the extra speedwork (something that we all know helps) that it would take to get faster, why would I even consider taking something that only might help?   Well, at least I’ve never taken anything like this, but it does seem strange that I would even consider it.  I guess Oleg’s right, we want it the easy way.  So, I guess I should end by saying something like, "Well, out to the track now to do that speedwork." But I think I’ll just go for a nice easy run after I get out of here.  Hmmmmmmm, how about that newt’s excrement mixed with a virgin trutle’s blood that I’ve heard about? Bob in Kalamazoo

Response:

I’ve been using both Creatine (25g/day for 5 days 3-5g/day thereafter) for about 1 year.  It has resulted in significant strength gains in the gym and faster times on the track, but I’m mostly a sprinter (200-800).

Lyndon: But what basis do you have for attributing your gains to creatine? Did you continue to train, eat, sleep, etc, exactly as you did before taking it?  If not,  there is no more evidence that creatine did it than moon pies. This isn’t a flame, but too many times folks change several of things in thier regimen and then attribute gains to one. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03

Response:

Mike, I always like to read your posts and learn from your experience and knowledge. But before I started running for more than just warm-up before weight lifting, I used Creatine.  It seemed to bulk me up and help in my leg presses, etc.  Air wrote about sprinting and weight lifting, both dependent on fast twitch muscles.  I would tend to agree with him. However, most of us here on rec.running are runners and endurance athletes not sprinters.  IMHO runners would not benefit from Creatine or probably any other bulking agent available for consumption at Gold’s or World gyms. Happy running, Johnny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been using both Creatine (25g/day for 5 days 3-5g/day thereafter) for about 1 year.  It has resulted in significant strength gains in the gym and faster times on the track, but I’m mostly a sprinter (200-800). Lyndon: But what basis do you have for attributing your gains to creatine? Did you continue to train, eat, sleep, etc, exactly as you did before taking it?  If not,  there is no more evidence that creatine did it than moon pies. This isn’t a flame, but too many times folks change several of things in thier regimen and then attribute gains to one. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03

Response:

Hmmmmmmm, how about that newt’s excrement mixed with a virgin trutle’s blood that I’ve heard about? Bob in Kalamazoo

Where would you find a virgin trutle? Jennifer

Response:

Come on, I know we all want to believe there’s that miracle drug that will really help you run faster and longer, but let’s admit it – no such substance exist…

Believe it, Agent Scully.  There is such a substance and it’s called coenzyme Q10.  Without it, my 5K PR was 19:06 and my 10K PR was 43:13. With 60 mg/day, I got them down to 17:10 and 36:07, respectively.  It also got rid of my gingivitis and gave me a week-long buzz whenever I increased the dose. [snip]

Response:

Come on, I know we all want to believe there’s that miracle drug that will really help you run faster and longer, but it’s not even clear if it’s benefitial for sprinters… health damage is just plain stupid… The fact that pharmacy industry is trying to sell it as "nutrition supplement" doesn’t make it right either… We all might as well use steroids to improve those 30-minute 5k’s into 29-minute 5k’s Let’s admit it – we are just looking for ways to improve ourselves as athletes by "paying our way" through it, instead of earning it old-fashioned way – by actually TRAINING!!! And that is even more troublesome…

Creatine is not a drug, it is an amino acid derivative, it is a nutritional supplement and could in no way be compared to steroids. If you want to ban it, how are you going to test for it?? Creatine is present at high levels in red-meat, do you want to ban excessive eating of red meat? Whilst although i wouldn’t take it myself – i don’t want the weight-gain associated with it’s use, i don’t believe it has harmful effects if taken at the correct dosages ( more doesn’t equal better). And it would also have a great effect on vegetarians, whose natural creatine intake would not be as high as meat-eaters. Also it’s effects are negligible for long-distance running, the greatest results are seen in power-athletes and sprinters. Dave Archer — | Homeless Unemployed Ex-Mathematician                     |

Response:

Oh boy, Never assume that "the lady at the health food store" has the slightest idea of what she is talking about.  Most of these employees (not all) have no formal training in nutrition, biology, or chemistry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I asked the lady at the health store where i purchase my supplements from about creatine and she said it was a really good product for weight lifters or any athletes that require quick energy or explosive energy but she said it’s bad for your liver if you’re a long distance runner or marathon runner Well HTH Fahad

Response:

see:  http://www.raysahelian.com/creatine.html for some objective info on creatine. This FAQ (of sorts) makes reference to my earlier point that there are studies out there that indicate that creatine either does not help or may actually hurt marathon running or long-distance bicycling. All in all, it looks like a supplement that might help bulking up for weight lifting but as far as giving a marathon runner that *explosive* start….well…do you really care how fast you can run that 1st 50 yards? I’d be wary of the potential risk of kidney damage. Jennifer

Response:

balanced diet, plenty of sleep and training training training… any supplement that will make you run faster overnight is a myth… ask yourself this – are you at the point when the only thing that can help you run faster is taking creatine/whatever? creatin causes muscle cramps, btw…

        Would you like to cite the proof that creatine CAUSES cramps? There is a lot of anecdotal evidence and some physiological reasons why it might be true, but that does not make it so.

Response:

balanced diet, plenty of sleep and training training training… any supplement that will make you run faster overnight is a myth… ask yourself this – are you at the point when the only thing that can help you run faster is taking creatine/whatever? creatin causes muscle cramps, btw… :Some friends at work recommended it to me to try.  Is it only a :weightlifters thing or do any of you runners like using it? : :Thx : I’ve seen a study somewhere (can’t recall where)  that seems to indicate that : Creatine actually diminished performance requiring muscular endurance. (really! :  This is no just a myth; I just can’t recall the source of my reading) : Jennifer —  Oleg

Response:

Some friends at work recommended it to me to try.  Is it only a weightlifters thing or do any of you runners like using it? Thx

If you want the straight scientific info on Creatine (and a bunch of other supplements) from someone who actually knows what he’s talking about (compared to the media stories), look here:     http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html I’ve been using both Creatine (25g/day for 5 days 3-5g/day thereafter) for about 1 year.  It has resulted in significant strength gains in the gym and faster times on the track, but I’m mostly a sprinter (200-800). There is NO scientific evidence (in a controlled study) of liver or kidney damage, cramping, or muscle strains caused by creatine used properly.  However, there is also no evidence of use for distance runners in  races beyond 800-1500 meters, and there is also considerable evidence of creating being abused (20 g/day for long term use). There is one scientific study of creatine in 5K running, where the runners got slightly slower, probably because a minor weight gain resulted in slightly lower relative VO2 max. The one area where it is useful to distance runners is for those who also want to gain strength/muscle mass in the gym.  Endurance training makes strength gains (at the same time) more difficult, and creatine can make up for that. Lyndon

Response:

Hi, I asked the lady at the health store where i purchase my supplements from about creatine and she said it was a really good product for weight lifters or any athletes that require quick energy or explosive energy but she said it’s bad for your liver if you’re a long distance runner or marathon runner Well HTH Fahad

Response:

 Otherwise, your adding dead weight and you’ll slow yourself down something fierce.

How is muscle dead weight?  Of course, this is all anecdotal, as is much of what is posted so take it for what it’s worth…get professional advice and then decide for yourself.

Yeah, thats the problem, some people may read this post and accept it as fact. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Some friends at work recommended it to me to try.  Is it only a weightlifters thing or do any of you runners like using it? Thx

I’ve seen a study somewhere (can’t recall where)  that seems to indicate that Creatine actually diminished performance requiring muscular endurance. (really!  This is no just a myth; I just can’t recall the source of my reading) Jennifer

Response:

    I had a slight tear in my left hamstring while taking creatine.  It probably wasn’t from taking creatine ,since I was doing 400 meter repeats on a cold rainy day!  It still scared me enough to never try creatine again.  I’ve also heard creatine can be associated with muscle tears. I did gain about 10 pounds taking creatine, so I guess it does what it claims to do.  I didn’t need the extra weight for running distance!   Troy  

Response:

From all that I’ve seen about creatine, if you want to be a distance runner and a fast runner, creatine probably is not your best bet unless you lift alot to strengthen the new mass you’ll put on.  Otherwise, your adding dead weight and you’ll slow yourself down something fierce.  I knew a few people while I was in the military who were great runners but then started taking creatine.  They bulked up and SLOWED down.  They didn’t lift weights to offset the extra mass they had to move.  Me, I’m stuck at 160 lbs.. and am slim and I run like a rabbit.  No interest in creatine for this guy.  Of course, this is all anecdotal, as is much of what is posted so take it for what it’s worth…get professional advice and then decide for yourself. Best of luck to you! Mike

Response:

Some friends at work recommended it to me to try.  Is it only a weightlifters thing or do any of you runners like using it? Thx

I was recently corresponding with a lady I know- a biochemist who manages a GNC store.  She has been enlighening people on sci.med.nutrition about creatine.  Her explanation was very well-researched and clear.  I’ll write to her and ask for permission to post what she said here.  (or, see if she will answer herself.) Mostly, of course, bodybuilders use it, cause it *does* make muscles appear larger, as well as providing an energy source.  I asked her if creatine would be useful for runner-types and she said it definetly would be.  I plan to try it soon… as soon as I have an extra $50 for the stuff, and a free 4 days to load up and feel like crud.  I will let you know the results. I sure hope it doesn’t increase muscle size too much; I already have more than I’d like. -Laurel

Response:

        I was so excited until the part about liver damage.  There are no documented cases. One subject in a study developed some kidney problems, but they could not be attributed to the creatine definitively.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I asked the lady at the health store where i purchase my supplements from about creatine and she said it was a really good product for weight lifters or any athletes that require quick energy or explosive energy but she said it’s bad for your liver if you’re a long distance runner or marathon runner Well HTH Fahad

Response:

I was recently corresponding with a lady I know- a biochemist who manages a GNC store.  She has been enlighening people on sci.med.nutrition about creatine.  Her explanation was very well-researched and clear.  I’ll write to her and ask for permission to post what she said here.  (or, see if she will answer herself.)

        Creatine is fast becoming one of the most researched substances in the world (tobacco is #1 I think).  There are tons of publications in the scientific literature on creatine.  The upshot is that it has mixed results. Mostly, of course, bodybuilders use it, cause it *does* make muscles appear larger, as well as providing an energy source.  I asked her if creatine would be useful for runner-types and she said it definetly would be.  I plan to try it soon… as soon as I have an extra $50 for the stuff, and a free 4 days to load up and feel like crud.  I will let you know the results.

        Okay, the woman works for a store from which she profits by having you buy the product.  That seems like a conflict of interest. I sure hope it doesn’t increase muscle size too much; I already have more than I’d like.

        You say that it does increase the appearance of the muscle size, but you say you are not interested in that and yet you are going to buy it.  That seems a bit contradictory.         The energy source might be useful for sprints, but the research does not bear this out.  Taking creatine before a sprint has not been shown to effective.  Creatine seems to work best during training (especially strength training) which results in the improved performance (if there is one). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –Laurel

Response:

 Otherwise, your adding dead weight and you’ll slow yourself down something fierce. How is muscle dead weight?

        The weight may be water weight.  The water is not available for thermoregulation so it is of no use.         You can be overally muscular from a distance running standpoint.

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