Hi paul:

Hi Dan, I’m planning to do a marathon in March next year, with a small possibility of doing another one exactly 5 weeks later. What are my chances of being able to run the second roughly as well as the first? I run 50k mountain races about 5-6 weeks apart often.  I find that I can run the second one just as well, sometimes better, than the first one.  My base is about 75/week.  The bigger the base, the quicker the recovery, I’ve found. The trick is to go easy for 10 days.  I’ve found that I can jump right into speedwork after that without problems. Here’s what I did after the first 50k race mentioned above:

[snip] This is starting to sound like a good idea. I hope I get through the ballot for the second marathon now. Thanks for the advice. Paul

Response:

Hi paul: I’m planning to do a marathon in March next year, with a small possibility of doing another one exactly 5 weeks later. What are my chances of being able to run the second roughly as well as the first?

I run 50k mountain races about 5-6 weeks apart often.  I find that I can run the second one just as well, sometimes better, than the first one.  My base is about 75/week.  The bigger the base, the quicker the recovery, I’ve found. Here’s what I did after a recent 50k — the next one was 5 weeks away, and I was notably stronger on the next 50k.  Twelve days after the race, I ran a speed workout faster than my last one before the first race. The trick is to go easy for 10 days.  I’ve found that I can jump right into speedwork after that without problems. I’m 52;  if you’re young, you may be able to accelerate it a bit, but don’t be afraid to take it easy for at least 7 days.  When I was in my 30’s I raced a PR marathon, then did nothing but easy running for 3 weeks, no speedwork.  Then ran a very strong 20 miler and beat several Athletics West (Nike sponsored) runners. Here’s what I did after the first 50k race mentioned above: Sat: 50k race Sun:  6.5 mile hike up 2,000

||| |||   I also read the ||||| "Going Against the Grain" book. |||| |||| |||| Is it worth reading also? ||| ||| Yeah it’s good, but you may not learn anything you don’t already ||| know or suspect ||| ||| Are you the Ignoramus from rec.running? There is such a hatred from ||| some people there for low-carb. I eat this way out of necessity, ||| now, and I feel so much better. I also run better but I am not ||| going to defend myself against the close-minded wheat-eaters. || || Yes, I am Ignoramus from rec.running. Some people there are so || emotionally attached to wheat etc, any time I mention that I run and || am on low carb, those people become practically berserk. It is || ridiculous to watch. Kinda the same thing over in the biking newsgroups. Don’t really need to make a big deal out of it though….unless someone starts knocking LC while not having a clue….

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  I also read the "Going Against the Grain" book. Is it worth reading also?

Yeah it’s good, but you may not learn anything you don’t already know or suspect Are you the Ignoramus from rec.running? There is such a hatred from some people there for low-carb. I eat this way out of necessity, now, and I feel so much better. I also run better but I am not going to defend myself against the close-minded wheat-eaters. Donna

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I would take some electrolyte pills with me, or some such. Gatorade is a sugary drink with some electrolytes added.

Of course I ran without using Gatorade and can certainly vouch that its not necessary.  However, one of the main goals of training for marathons is to learn want you can ingest before and during the run (what your stomach can handle) and how much (water, fuel, etc.) you need to finish strong. One of the best pieces of advice I got before my marathon was from the medical advice flyer the NYRR gave out to the runners in their goodie bag.  It suggested taking one of the small salt packets you get from "take-out" and downing it with water after the halfway mark.  So I took a risk and downed most of one at around mile 15-16 — it made a world of difference.  I felt amazingly better within 3-5 minutes and made the rest of the run much more enjoyable. I’d suggest that when you get further into your training and start doing the 15-20 mile runs you give the salt pack a try.  I think that if I had my long runs prior to the marathon would have been better. Also, I’ve also been a volunteer for the NY marathon a few times.   This year I was responsible for helping sequester the elite women runners at the start on Staten Island.  So when you get closer to a marathon there’s a few other bits of info to pass along. — Rudy – Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"   -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

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Have you read "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman? He is an ultra-long distance    runner who believes in a low-carb diet. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062716123/102-9038329-… I am a runner who has never been overweight, except when I gained 50 lbs twice when pregnant. I developed mysterious hip pain last year and when I gave up gluten, and most grains, I lost the hip pain. I also read the "Going Against the Grain" book. Donna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please accept my most heartfelt congratulations. Life is so much better this way. I have a similarly fascinating story. I had knee pain for the last several years, up to when I was obese. I really like to run, but could not do it more often than 1-2 times per week. After that, I lost weight by eating less and exercising (moderate carb), became slim (at normal weight), but knee pain stayed with me, unfortunately, although it became slightly better. Because I was hungry all the time maintaining my weight, I decided to try LC to control hunger. So I gave up all bread, pasta, grains potatoes etc. My knee pain is now GONE, without any additional weight loss. I run literally every day and am very happy. I ran a 1/2 marathon and experienced ZERO knee pain afterwards. By the way, I ran a low carb half marathon, no gatorade etc. i Durng a brief station stop, I ran fromthebus to go to the John, and ran back. Not far….. but NO KNEE PAIN. Over 50  pounds lighter, no wonder. I kept telling myself that when I was lighter "Someday" I might run. I even bought running shoes and tucked them safely away. Beginning to look like it is time to actually do it. Unless I can invent a reason not to. Maybe if someone can breakthis weight stall for me, then I’ll have a reason not to run YET. Jim

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::::: Please accept my most heartfelt congratulations. Life is so much ::::: better this way. ::::: ::::: I have a similarly fascinating story. ::::: ::::: I had knee pain for the last several years, up to when I was ::::: obese. I really like to run, but could not do it more often than ::::: 1-2 times per week. After that, I lost weight by eating less and ::::: exercising (moderate carb), became slim (at normal weight), but ::::: knee pain stayed with me, unfortunately, although it became ::::: slightly better. ::::: ::::: Because I was hungry all the time maintaining my weight, I ::::: decided to try LC to control hunger. So I gave up all bread, ::::: pasta, grains potatoes etc. ::::: ::::: My knee pain is now GONE, without any additional weight loss. I ::::: run literally every day and am very happy. I ran a 1/2 marathon ::::: and experienced ZERO knee pain afterwards. By the way, I ran a ::::: low carb half marathon, no gatorade etc. ::: ::: Interesting that the knee pain is gone.  Maybe that does have ::: something to do with cutting out grains and potatos. I don’t think ::: the marathon on LC w/ no gatorade is significant beyond the ::: accomplishment of the marathon itself. If you run at a slow pace ::: then there should be no issues with your body relying mostly on fat ::: for fuel. :: :: You are completely right. My objective, though, is to attempt to run :: it in under 4 hours. A lot of people think that one cannot run a :: marathon without "gatorade" etc. I would like my experience to be one :: datapoint to prove them wrong (or, perhaps, I am wrong and they are :: right!) :: :: A time just under 4 hours is not exactly slow, although it is nowhere :: close to a stellar result. The merit of time will in all likelihood depend on your overall conditioning for running. If you’re a natural at it, and very fit for running, you can do more than someone who is not, without taxing your glycogen stores.  Consider doing your running while measuring heart rate.  What you’ll likely find is that if you keep your HR below a certain level, the fact that you are LC will not matter much.  But once you start going over a certain level in terms of HR, the absence of those carbs will begin to have an impact, because your body will need to rely more and more on them for fuel. The thing is, driving your time down while driving your HR up is sort of counter to the notion of running a marathon.  I mean, you want longer time in general, but you also want to be able to get that lower time without actually sprinting (or driving your HR very high).  So I would guess that if you train correctly and long enough it would be possible to turn in very respectable times running on LC. Even so, it will depend on conditioning. Peak performance will very likely require carbs. The gatorade thing is just about being deficient of electrolytes, right?  If you can have enough of them from other sources (some say bananas are best) then the use of gatorade is not required. Do you ever practice sprinting?  I can tell you from my biking riding experience that once you start driving your HR up toward max, carbs or the absence of them will be felt.  And it won’t feel good.

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:: Please accept my most heartfelt congratulations. Life is so much :: better this way. :: :: I have a similarly fascinating story. :: :: I had knee pain for the last several years, up to when I was obese. I :: really like to run, but could not do it more often than 1-2 times per :: week. After that, I lost weight by eating less and exercising :: (moderate carb), became slim (at normal weight), but knee pain stayed :: with me, unfortunately, although it became slightly better. :: :: Because I was hungry all the time maintaining my weight, I decided to :: try LC to control hunger. So I gave up all bread, pasta, grains :: potatoes etc. :: :: My knee pain is now GONE, without any additional weight loss. I run :: literally every day and am very happy. I ran a 1/2 marathon and :: experienced ZERO knee pain afterwards. By the way, I ran a low carb :: half marathon, no gatorade etc. Interesting that the knee pain is gone.  Maybe that does have something to do with cutting out grains and potatos. I don’t think the marathon on LC w/ no gatorade is significant beyond the accomplishment of the marathon itself. If you run at a slow pace then there should be no issues with your body relying mostly on fat for fuel. :: :: i ::

::: ::: Durng a brief station stop, I ran fromthebus to go to the John, and ::: ran back. Not far….. but NO KNEE PAIN. ::: ::: Over 50  pounds lighter, no wonder. ::: ::: I kept telling myself that when I was lighter "Someday" I might run. ::: ::: I even bought running shoes and tucked them safely away. ::: ::: Beginning to look like it is time to actually do it. Unless I can ::: invent a reason not to. ::: ::: Maybe if someone can breakthis weight stall for me, then I’ll have a ::: reason not to run YET. ::: ::: Jim ::: :: :: :: — :: 223/172.8/180

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I’m happy for both of you.  You have found a new approach to life. Your lives will be longer and more full of energy because you had the courage to change your lifestyle, and I congratuate both of you! Now, like JC says, eat less and exercise more!

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:: I’m happy for both of you.  You have found a new approach to life. :: :: Your lives will be longer and more full of energy because you had the :: courage to change your lifestyle, and I congratuate both of you! :: :: Now, like JC says, eat less and exercise more! And don’t eat bread, pasta, grains, and potatoes, etc.  That’s more than just eat less and exercise.

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Durng a brief station stop, I ran fromthebus to go to the John, and ran back. Not far….. but NO KNEE PAIN. Over 50  pounds lighter, no wonder. I kept telling myself that when I was lighter "Someday" I might run. I even bought running shoes and tucked them safely away. Beginning to look like it is time to actually do it. Unless I can invent a reason not to. Maybe if someone can breakthis weight stall for me, then I’ll have a reason not to run YET. Jim

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I read somewhere that for every pound lost is like 4 pounds on the knee……must be that new math. Great job on the weight loss.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Durng a brief station stop, I ran fromthebus to go to the John, and ran back. Not far….. but NO KNEE PAIN. Over 50  pounds lighter, no wonder. I kept telling myself that when I was lighter "Someday" I might run. I even bought running shoes and tucked them safely away. Beginning to look like it is time to actually do it. Unless I can invent a reason not to. Maybe if someone can breakthis weight stall for me, then I’ll have a reason not to run YET. Jim

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To get people out of the 5/10K rut our  running club hosts  a Grand Prix series of races that start at 1 mile, 4 mile 5 mile, 15k, 20k,10 miles and up to and including a 1/2 marathon. In order to score points and get the brass ring you need to do both sprints and endure.  Obviously constructed to minimize any biasness. This forced sharing  has opened a few eyes.

Our annual team comp includes 4 and 5 mile races, as well as some half marathons and the marathon. I wish they’d include the mile, but they don’t. We have more of a 4/5 mile rut here (though there are also several decent half marathons during the year too), because those are the distances that best suit the geography of central park. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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 To get people out of the 5/10K rut our  running club hosts  a Grand Prix

series of races that start at 1 mile, 4 mile 5 mile, 15k, 20k,10 miles and up to and including a 1/2 marathon. In order to score points and get the brass ring you need to do both sprints and endure.  Obviously constructed to minimize any biasness. This forced sharing  has opened a few eyes.  <<       Running clubs tend to be a little different around here, too.  Both the Cross Country Club of Dallas and the Ft. Worth Runners Club have monthly races that go through a variety of distances.  Of course, they are targeted towards people who will identify themselves more as runners, as opposed to casual runners.  But what I’m referring to is this: Oct 30  0800  RUN FOR THE HILLS 5K, Eagle Mountain Country Club, Fort Worth Oct 30  0900  TCOM DO DASH 5K / KIDS’ 1K, TCOM Campus, 3500 W. Camp Bowie at Montgomery, Fort Worth Oct 30  0900  FOUR SEASONS COOL  5K / 1 MILE, Four Seasons Resort & Club, 4150 N. MacArthur, Las Colinas, Irving Oct 30  0800  LIVIN’ IT LOUD 5K / 1 MILE, Shops At Legacy, Legacy & The Tollway, Plano Oct 30  0900  HUBBARD ROCK’N'RUN  5K / 1 MILE,  Harry Myers Park, downtown Rockwall Oct 30  0800  PLANO PACERS 5K / JR .7 MILE SPRINT, Bob Woodruff Park, Plano      Those are the DFW-area races for this Saturday.  I’ll probably do one of them although right now I haven’t a clue as to which one.  Of there were a four- or five-miler in the pack, though, chances are that my decision would be much easier.      Last Saturday would be an even better example – there were nine races, all 5Ks. Mike

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 We have more of a 4/5 mile rut here (though there are also several decent

half marathons during the year too), because those are the distances that best suit the geography of central park.  <<      Coincidentally, I’ve run two races in Central Park and one was a four-mile, the other a five-mile.  Also, I should have looked at the local calendar a little closer – there’s a four-mile in Ft. Worth on November 6. That’s the same weekend as the Dallas Half Marathon or CCCD The Half or whatever the hell its official name is. Mike

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   It’s an interesting distance to race at. I bet the organizers wanted *something* to set it apart from the plethora of other runs in the area (last weekend, for instance, there were 10 5Ks on Saturday and a few other races on Sunday).  <<     I don’t know why one of these races that are scheduled for the same day as a jillion other races doesn’t try altering the distance slightly – say a four-miler or a five-miler – to separate themselves from the crowd. Mike —

I think 8K, 5 milers and 10 milers are excellent distances as is the 15K (a person favorite of mine).  <<      I like 10 milers and 15Ks, too, but I can understand why these are less common as they’re not going to appeal to the numbers that the shorter distances will.  Four- and five-milers wouldn’t be as intimidating so the race will still attract some casual runners as well as race-addicted people who were tired of weekly 5Ks. Mike

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I think 8K, 5 milers and 10 milers are excellent distances as is the 15K (a person favorite of mine).  <<     I like 10 milers and 15Ks, too, but I can understand why these are less common as they’re not going to appeal to the numbers that the shorter distances will.  Four- and five-milers wouldn’t be as intimidating so the race will still attract some casual runners as well as race-addicted people who were tired of weekly 5Ks.

To get people out of the 5/10K rut our  running club hosts  a Grand Prix series of races that start at 1 mile, 4 mile 5 mile, 15k, 20k,10 miles and up to and including a 1/2 marathon. In order to score points and get the brass ring you need to do both sprints and endure.  Obviously constructed to minimize any biasness. This forced sharing  has opened a few eyes. -Doug

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How would a "metric" half marathon be 8.1 miles when a marathon in metric terms is 21.1 km?  That is 13.1 miles.  I am confused. In cycling, a century is 100 miles and a metric century is 100 k. In running, they’re saying that a half-Marathon is 13.1 miles so a "metric" half marathon is 13.1 k. Get it? No, I do not get it.  I think it is ridiculous.  A metric century makes perfect sense as being 100km.

(Top-posting corrected) I’m not saying it makes a whole lot of sense. I’m just showing you where they got the idea: they changed "miles" to "km" and called it metric. Everyone was shouting about how they couldn’t see where they came up with the distance, and that’s how they did it. –Harold Buck "I used to rock and roll all night,  and party every day.  Then it was every other day. . . ."       -Homer J. Simpson

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No, I do not get it.  I think it is ridiculous.  A metric century makes perfect sense as being 100km.

Sam, I think it’s the same concept as "lite" beer. LOL Mike Tennent "IronPenguin"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  That’s an interesting term, a metric half marathon that is 8.1 miles. It’s 13.1K. I have the race flier in front of me. (Assuming it’s the same one, in Flower Mound, north of Fort Worth — I don’t know where nospam is, but I can’t imagine *two* of these oddball events in different cities on the same day.)  <<     I ran it last year.  I think they had to do some weird doubling back to get the proper distance.  I would have been just as happy if they had made it a 12K or something.  It’s an interesting distance to race at. I bet the organizers wanted *something* to set it apart from the plethora of other runs in the area (last weekend, for instance, there were 10 5Ks on Saturday and a few other races on Sunday).  <<     I don’t know why one of these races that are scheduled for the same day as a jillion other races doesn’t try altering the distance slightly – say a four-miler or a five-miler – to separate themselves from the crowd. Mike —

I think 8K, 5 milers and 10 milers are excellent distances as is the 15K (a person favorite of mine).

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No, I do not get it.  I think it is ridiculous.  A metric century makes perfect sense as being 100km.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How would a "metric" half marathon be 8.1 miles when a marathon in metric terms is 21.1 km?  That is 13.1 miles.  I am confused. In cycling, a century is 100 miles and a metric century is 100 k. In running, they’re saying that a half-Marathon is 13.1 miles so a "metric" half marathon is 13.1 k. Get it? –Harold Buck "I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."      -Homer J. Simpson

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How would a "metric" half marathon be 8.1 miles when a marathon in metric terms is 21.1 km?  That is 13.1 miles.  I am confused.

In cycling, a century is 100 miles and a metric century is 100 k. In running, they’re saying that a half-Marathon is 13.1 miles so a "metric" half marathon is 13.1 k. Get it? –Harold Buck "I used to rock and roll all night,  and party every day.  Then it was every other day. . . ."       -Homer J. Simpson

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 That’s an interesting term, a metric half marathon that is 8.1 miles.

It’s 13.1K. I have the race flier in front of me. (Assuming it’s the same one, in Flower Mound, north of Fort Worth — I don’t know where nospam is, but I can’t imagine *two* of these oddball events in different cities on the same day.)  <<      I ran it last year.  I think they had to do some weird doubling back to get the proper distance.  I would have been just as happy if they had made it a 12K or something.  It’s an interesting distance to race at. I bet the organizers wanted

*something* to set it apart from the plethora of other runs in the area (last weekend, for instance, there were 10 5Ks on Saturday and a few other races on Sunday).  <<      I don’t know why one of these races that are scheduled for the same day as a jillion other races doesn’t try altering the distance slightly – say a four-miler or a five-miler – to separate themselves from the crowd. Mike —

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Eventually it has to happen:  I agree with Ig on this one.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – << Yep, that’s it.  Sorry, I didn’t know that a "Metric Half-Marathon" was not a common race. What is a "Metric Half-Marathon"? Thanks for explaining! Since a marathon is 26.2 miles, a half-marathon is 13.1 miles (obviously).  Instead of saying miles, however, they substitute KM, but (conveniently for us newbies), don’t convert the distance.  So, it becomes 13.1 KM, or, roughly, 8.1 miles. I’m sure there is an easier explanation, but that’s all I’ve got. This is not directed at you, but I cannot resist. I am a little bit irked by how some race officials use the term "metric" to perform shenanigans and promote innumeracy, and denigrate the metric system by association. A metric marathon is 42,195 meters. Same as 26.2 miles. A metric half marathon is 21,097 meters, same as 13.1 miles. 13,200 meters is not "metric half marathon". What you are describing sounds more properly as "1/3 marathon". — Running Log: http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/exercise.txt

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Great, just what running needs is more confusing names for race distances.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s an interesting term, a metric half marathon that is 8.1 miles. It’s 13.1K. I have the race flier in front of me. (Assuming it’s the same one, in Flower Mound, north of Fort Worth — I don’t know where nospam is, but I can’t imagine *two* of these oddball events in different cities on the same day.) It’s an interesting distance to race at. I bet the organizers wanted *something* to set it apart from the plethora of other runs in the area (last weekend, for instance, there were 10 5Ks on Saturday and a few other races on Sunday). — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

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Leafing through rec.running, I read Ignoramus6961’s message of 25 Oct 2004: 8.1 miles is not a very long distance…

It depends on how you cover it. At an easy pace, it’s not very long. However, covering it as fast as you can will make it seem painfully long. Ever run a mile as fast as you can? This is extreme toruture. Phil M. — "What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John Short, South African coach.

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I have been running consistently for about 2 months and did a six mile run this morning with no problems (though my shins are a bit sore right now).  During the week I try to run 2-3 times, usually a 2-3 miler each time. In about 4 weeks (Nov. 20) there is a metric half-marathon in my town that I would like to run, which equates to about 8.1 miles.  Is this a reasonable to goal if I increase my distance by a half-mile or so for each run runing the week up to the week of the race?

Sure. I started running in late June or early July and did a half-marathon in early October. I completed the half-marathon in just under 2 hours, and managed without any walking. It actually felt pretty easy. My longest run before the half-marathon was 14K, i.e. two-thirds of the distance, which I did about 1.5 weeks before race day. It was mainly for psychological reasons, since I figured if I could do two-thirds of the distance, I’d manage with the remaning third one way or another on race day. Apart from the 14K run the week before, I did 4 or 5 10K runs in the preceding weeks, otherwise only shorter distances of 3-7 K, about 3-4 times per week. Since you’ve just done a 6 mile run without problems, I reckon you are pretty much prepared for the 8.1 miles already, so I’m not sure you relly need to increase your training dose. Just keeping your current level up for the next 3-4 weeks should be sufficient (if all you want to do is to complete the race). Bjorn

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How would a "metric" half marathon be 8.1 miles when a marathon in metric terms is 21.1 km?  That is 13.1 miles.  I am confused. If the race is 8 miles, I see now reason you could not finish it as long as you take it easy.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been running consistently for about 2 months and did a six mile run this morning with no problems (though my shins are a bit sore right now).  During the week I try to run 2-3 times, usually a 2-3 miler each time. In about 4 weeks (Nov. 20) there is a metric half-marathon in my town that I would like to run, which equates to about 8.1 miles.  Is this a reasonable to goal if I increase my distance by a half-mile or so for each run runing the week up to the week of the race? Thanks.

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That’s an interesting term, a metric half marathon that is 8.1 miles.

It’s 13.1K. I have the race flier in front of me. (Assuming it’s the same one, in Flower Mound, north of Fort Worth — I don’t know where nospam is, but I can’t imagine *two* of these oddball events in different cities on the same day.) It’s an interesting distance to race at. I bet the organizers wanted *something* to set it apart from the plethora of other runs in the area (last weekend, for instance, there were 10 5Ks on Saturday and a few other races on Sunday). — Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you’re going through hell, keep going. –Winston Churchill

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Yep, that’s it.  Sorry, I didn’t know that a "Metric Half-Marathon" was not a common race. Thanks for all of the advice.  Given my slow pace, trying to win didn’t even enter my mind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -That’s an interesting term, a metric half marathon that is 8.1 miles. It’s 13.1K. I have the race flier in front of me. (Assuming it’s the same one, in Flower Mound, north of Fort Worth — I don’t know where nospam is, but I can’t imagine *two* of these oddball events in different cities on the same day.) It’s an interesting distance to race at. I bet the organizers wanted *something* to set it apart from the plethora of other runs in the area (last weekend, for instance, there were 10 5Ks on Saturday and a few other races on Sunday).

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<< Yep, that’s it.  Sorry, I didn’t know that a "Metric Half-Marathon" was not a common race. What is a "Metric Half-Marathon"? Thanks for explaining! [By the way, it's not raining, this moment ~ Later, yes, forecasted showers, Stormy weather, all laced With a bunch of heather ~ Oops, forgot my sweater!] _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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I have been running consistently for about 2 months and did a six mile run this morning with no problems (though my shins are a bit sore right now).  During the week I try to run 2-3 times, usually a 2-3 miler each time. In about 4 weeks (Nov. 20) there is a metric half-marathon in my town that I would like to run, which equates to about 8.1 miles.  Is this a reasonable to goal if I increase my distance by a half-mile or so for each run runing the week up to the week of the race?

Sure, I’d do it. Sounds like a bold plan for a complete beginner and I would be careful; having a plan of simply finishing on my feet without injury and being happy for the experience. Don’t change your running plan much now. At your level, simply getting out there on a regular basis is making you improve at a relatively fast pace. Your half-mile increase plan sounds okay. The shin pain is common among new runners – avoid hills and rub them with a rolling pin at night. Let us know how it went! I love reading about first races. Don’t get caught up in the excitement and go out at too fast a pace. Pretend it’s one of your training runs for the first half, pick it up a tiny bit at halfway if you feel good, and finish smiling! cheers, — David (in Hamilton ON) www.absolutelyaccurate.com www.allfalldown.org

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<< fast a pace. Pretend it’s one of your training runs for the first half, pick it up a tiny bit at halfway if you feel good, and finish smiling! cheers, — David (in Hamilton ON) Great Counsel! Wise advice ~ An ounce of prevention, Just a once upon A time Tale… _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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<< Great Counsel! Wise advice ~ An ounce of prevention, Just a once upon A time Tale… Told twice. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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<< Yep, that’s it.  Sorry, I didn’t know that a "Metric Half-Marathon" was not a common race. What is a "Metric Half-Marathon"? Thanks for explaining!

Since a marathon is 26.2 miles, a half-marathon is 13.1 miles (obviously).  Instead of saying miles, however, they substitute KM, but (conveniently for us newbies), don’t convert the distance.  So, it becomes 13.1 KM, or, roughly, 8.1 miles. I’m sure there is an easier explanation, but that’s all I’ve got.

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I run about 6 miles a day for 6 days a week and sometime 3 miles on my "bad" days.  I’m running a half-marathon this coming saturday.  I think it’s about knowing  what you "can" do.  If you feel your ready, then yea.  No magical equations here.  But don’t hurt yourself by trying to set a PR or go at it the wrong way.  Just relaz and have a good time.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been running consistently for about 2 months and did a six mile run this morning with no problems (though my shins are a bit sore right now).  During the week I try to run 2-3 times, usually a 2-3 miler each time. In about 4 weeks (Nov. 20) there is a metric half-marathon in my town that I would like to run, which equates to about 8.1 miles.  Is this a reasonable to goal if I increase my distance by a half-mile or so for each run runing the week up to the week of the race? Thanks.

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I have been running consistently for about 2 months and did a six mile run this morning with no problems (though my shins are a bit sore right now).  During the week I try to run 2-3 times, usually a 2-3 miler each time. In about 4 weeks (Nov. 20) there is a metric half-marathon in my town that I would like to run, which equates to about 8.1 miles.  Is this a reasonable to goal if I increase my distance by a half-mile or so for each run runing the week up to the week of the race? Thanks.

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I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight?

ZOOM : ) 100 POUNDS

Wow! Congratulations! Nicky. — HbA1c 10.5/6.4/<6  Weight 95/81/72 1g Metformin, 75ug Thyroxine T2 DX 05/2004

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

Congrats – great work!!

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Good for you!  Great work!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

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good.

|| I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip || along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be || like when I reach my goal weight? || || 100 POUNDS || || My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in || November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare || the century mark achieved. || || Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in || 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale || reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. || || Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif || || Cubit || 311/211/165 || LC since 12/01/2003

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CONGRATULATIONS !!!     I’m sure you’ll be doing marathons soon ! Keep it up ronda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

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Excellent, Cubit!  You’ve made wonderful progress!  Keep it up! — Linda 296/191.4/160 LC since Oct. 13, 2003 Now a happy member of the ‘100lbs. Gone Club’! http://home.att.net/~lewis_linda/index.html http://community.webshots.com/user/mslewtoo "Are you telling me there are dead people in my living room watching videos?"–Nina (Truly, Madly, Deeply)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

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Way to go Cubit. Fantastic. — Bear- Grrrrrrrrrrrr  :o)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

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I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

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Congratulations. That’s a lot of weight. Keep up the good work.    Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

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I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight?

You’ll be running.  :-)  Way to go.

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100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!  AWESOME achievement! — Saffire 205/147/125  -  5′1.5" Atkins since 6/14/03 Progress photo:  http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

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Sounds good. I hope NOT to loose 100 pounds, because that would put me at 140 lbs and 5′ 6" tall. When I DID weigh that, I was really skinny…. my face was sort of boney. One of these days, I will keep my promise to take up running/jogging as part of my exercise. Keep on with it. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

– Keepsake gift for young girls. Unique and personal one-of-a-kind. Builds strong minds 12 ways. Guaranteed satisfaction – courteous money back – keep bonus gifts   http://www.alicebook.com

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100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved.

All right, Cubit!  That’s a fabulous milestone.  Congratulations! Carol — "Years ago my mother used to say to me… She’d say, ‘In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.’ Well, for years I was smart…. I recommend pleasant.  You may quote me." *James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

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Congratulations on reaching an amazing milestone!! Lybbe Started Bernstein Diet October 2, 2004 – 243.0 Today’s weight – 233.2 Goal – 150 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I walked to the movie theater today.  It took 7 minutes.  I zip along like I used to do in high school.  Good god, what will it be like when I reach my goal weight? 100 POUNDS My scale didn’t read in tenths, when I weighed in at 311 back in November 2003.  I figure today’s 211.6 is close enough to declare the century mark achieved. Truth be told, I weighed 328 on a friend’s bathroom scale back in 2001. That weight was with my clothes on, and his bathroom scale reads about 2 or 3 pounds high, so I figure I was about 320. Fitday Graph: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart50.gif Cubit 311/211/165 LC since 12/01/2003

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100 POUNDS

Sweet! Congratulations! I’m surprised you’re not flying! Keep up the good work, Cubit. HG

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<< Honestly, I would go with the more comfortable shoe.  If the 704’s are tight then that will play a major role in a longer race.  Although a little heavier, I would go with the more comfortable shoes. . Me too. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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Ok I have a 10 mile race tomorrow morning, and I’m pondering which shoes to wear.  I have 5 pairs of running shoes I’m using right now, 3 of which I could wear for the race: NB 704 trail shoe 11EE ~13oz per shoe NB 781 trail shoe 12EEEE ~15oz per shoe NB 855 road shoe 12EEEE ~17oz per shoe I’m leaning toward wearing the 704’s because of their weight.  They are last year’s and still in good shape, but a bit tight, as my feet have expanded and I’ve gotten used to running in a larger shoe size.  Normally I wear the

Go with the 704. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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Honestly, I would go with the more comfortable shoe.  If the 704’s are tight then that will play a major role in a longer race.  Although a little heavier, I would go with the more comfortable shoes.

If they’re tight enough to be uncomfortable, I’d recommend just throwing them away. On the other hand, if they’re merely a snug fit as opposed to the typical loose fit for running shoes, that should be fine. My racing flats are somewhat snug (about a half size too small by normal sizing conventions), but I wear them up to half-marathon distance with no problems. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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Ok I have a 10 mile race tomorrow morning, and I’m pondering which shoes to wear.  I have 5 pairs of running shoes I’m using right now, 3 of which I could wear for the race: NB 704 trail shoe 11EE ~13oz per shoe NB 781 trail shoe 12EEEE ~15oz per shoe NB 855 road shoe 12EEEE ~17oz per shoe I’m leaning toward wearing the 704’s because of their weight.  They are last year’s and still in good shape, but a bit tight, as my feet have expanded and I’ve gotten used to running in a larger shoe size.  Normally I wear the 855’s or some 990’s I have on the road.  The 990’s are out because they don’t feel good going fast.  I wore the 781’s in my 50k trail race.  I can tell the 855’s are heavier when I run, though not by a lot.  Just how much difference does it make to wear a heavier shoe in a race?  Thanks. -Tony

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Honestly, I would go with the more comfortable shoe.  If the 704’s are tight then that will play a major role in a longer race.  Although a little heavier, I would go with the more comfortable shoes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok I have a 10 mile race tomorrow morning, and I’m pondering which shoes to wear.  I have 5 pairs of running shoes I’m using right now, 3 of which I could wear for the race: NB 704 trail shoe 11EE ~13oz per shoe NB 781 trail shoe 12EEEE ~15oz per shoe NB 855 road shoe 12EEEE ~17oz per shoe I’m leaning toward wearing the 704’s because of their weight.  They are last year’s and still in good shape, but a bit tight, as my feet have expanded and I’ve gotten used to running in a larger shoe size.  Normally I wear the 855’s or some 990’s I have on the road.  The 990’s are out because they don’t feel good going fast.  I wore the 781’s in my 50k trail race.  I can tell the 855’s are heavier when I run, though not by a lot.  Just how much difference does it make to wear a heavier shoe in a race?  Thanks. -Tony

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In my tri club we operate a periodised training approach and do monthly time trials over fixed distances (and routes on the bike). Ideally these should be competitive to ensure 100% effort. Here’s where a club environment helps. Also the time trials should come at the end of each easy week.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… i

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An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect. I am not "experienced" in what I am trying to accomplish, namely, run a marathon under 4 hours. I have a lot of experience running recreationally, that’s all.

Man, my IQ must have dropped fifty points when I wrote that thing, I’m as bad as Bush with my malapropisms.  (Regardless of your political affilitation you have to admit that he says the strangest things.)  It was my earlier run, yeah that was it.  The blood had rushed from my head. Obviously I meant _in_experienced runner. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race. Would I not want to run faster, during training?

Over time you’ll naturally run faster.  But you want to keep most(?) of your training runs LSD to develop your aerobic capacity for endurance events.  If you run faster you’ll use different metabolic pathways and you’ll get far less aerobic benefit.  Speed and tempo work is different since it’s training the muscles to work faster/harder, not for longer periods at higher loads. I remember somebody mentioning that LSD develops capillaries and mitochondria and stuff, but they may have been thinking about _Star Wars: the Horrid Prequels_.

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You can use it for some things, but predicting race times isn’t one of them. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race. Would I not want to run faster, during training?

No. You want to run faster during racing. It doesn’t matter a whole lot if you run slowly during training runs, and increasing the pace of your aerobic training runs won’t necessarily make you go faster. The systems you are trying to train with easy distance runs respond well at low intensities. Push the pace and the anaerobic system picks up the difference — so you don’t get an increase in training effect, because the extra work does not place load on the fitness components that you are trying to train (and it is not intense enough to load the components that get trained with speedwork). You should do your speed work at a good pace, but day to day training runs should be at a comfortable pace. Speed work is a better predictor of race performance than training runs. On of the posters in this forum, Dan Stumpus, used to run very fast marathons (close to 6 minutes per mile) and use aerobic training runs of 8 minutes per mile. That’s like you doing your training runs at 12 minutes per mile. Even my relatively fast 7:15-7:30 minute per mile training pace is more than a minute per mile slower than my half marathon race pace. Also, if I just don’t feel like running fast on a given day, I might run with a friend at a much slower pace — 8, 9, or whatever. As long as the miles go into the diary, it’s all the same to me. Likewise, Steve Common used to run comparable times to me, yet often trained much slower (as slowly as 10 minutes per mile) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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<< Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race.  

Counterintuitive, Indeed. For speedy pace, Rapid race across the finish line, Well, that’s an age-old story. Counter, it may be, But alas, indeed, Wisdom abounds, surrounds ~ Burried deep in the interstices of time, Reflected ryhme, deflected Soul and soundings Triangulated Back through time. Baffling, yes. And sure, what a mess! Nevertheless, the key Will be found and told. Hark! What’s that I hear? Ear to ground, Turning round, Seeing some strange Shape… _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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Or you could maintain a database of all runs

that’s what I do (Access, described in earlier, but fairly recent, post).   but how do you compare a 4 mile run in the morning with a 6 mile run in the afternoon?

that’s what I don’t do As Lyndon pointed out, it’s not day-to-day progress that you monitor, but over time. Also, you probably are doing different workouts on different days – working different systems – so there’s no real reason why they should be directly comparable. Having a fixed routine that you "test" every so often, like Sam described, would be a good way to go if you have fairly constant conditions. I usually measure progress by either how much more of a regular route I can run, how few walk breaks I have to take up a hill or on a route, or how I feel after a particularly hilly or long run – or whether I can add more hills or distance to the route. I may notice that on my relatively easy hills, I can go in multiple speeds now (almost springing up the easiest) and still be below LT (used to be just *doing* the hill was barely below LT). (Actually, the fact that I can run all the hills on that one system without messing up my Achilles is *substantial* progress compared with 2 yr ago.) In prior years, I was running mostly in winter and the snow or mud conditions just varied so much from one run to the next that it was hard to judge anything. This year, we had a hot, dry summer (less field work so I could run), so the paces (as calculated later; I run by effort) are *somewhat* similar (within a few min/mile) for different types of runs. But I envision them as a scatterplot, not specific numbers. I’ve considered trying to do 6 or 12 min or similar tests, but my conditions just vary too much from one week to next to make it meaningless in most years. The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here Dot — "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." – Cave Dog

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<< Having a fixed routine that you "test" every so often, like Sam described, would be a good way to go if you have fairly constant conditions. What’s a good test? For personal best? For ALL systems. Many, many thanks. My appreciation in your bank. Systems? Now a scattershot approach for me. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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snip< The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here Dot

I use my log to keep a basic record of volume, time in my case, and to stay motivated.  When I started keeping exercise logs 4 years ago my consistency went way up.  Similarly, I keep a food log with my own kind of short hand for foods and portion sizes.  The food log isn’t an accurate food count in any way, but over time it helps me make better food choices. – Tony

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip< The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here Dot I use my log to keep a basic record of volume, time in my case, and to stay motivated.  When I started keeping exercise logs 4 years ago my consistency went way up.  Similarly, I keep a food log with my own kind of short hand for foods and portion sizes.  The food log isn’t an accurate food count in any way, but over time it helps me make better food choices. – Tony

I keep a very basic log of running, walking, and biking (one program) that I mainly use to keep track of miles on my equipment, though it’s nice to see mpm times decline over time.  I have a different log for my weightlifting and a separate record for my golfing (handicapping, etc.).  Last but not least, I keep a pretty decent food log.  Even though it seems like a lot of logging, it’s only a few minutes out of my day.  Each of my logs has come in handy in various situations. BTW, the runner’s log I use is Palm based and a cool little $5 program. Jenn

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pencil and paper work great.

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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…

I use my own Excel spreadsheet,  Mine starts as a periodization plan for the entire year, with training cycles, races, and every running workout figured out.  Planned rest is also included.  Then, as I go through the season, I replace what I planned with what I actually did, adjusting planned training as needed. One thing that I think hasn’t been brought out is that you shouldn’t get too caught up in day-to-day fitness changes.  Many experienced runners can tell lactate threshold, MLSS, recovery pace by feel, and if you do these on consistent courses, yes, these can tell you something, as can time trials.  For example, I have a standard warmup that includes a jog, drills, and buildups/ strides, and if something is significantly slower, it tells me to cut back the planned workload (maybe I’m getting sick, and I haven’t quite figured it out yet). But you shouldn’t obsess about these things.  Even a time trial can vary week to week due to a lot of things, such as stress, illness/health, sleep, how fast you ran your last recovery run, maybe even what you had for lunch.  If you ran your 400 session 1 second/400 slower than you ran last week, it might mean that you didn’t work as hard or didn’t get enough recovery…but it might mean that it was 5 degrees warmer than last week.  Don’t worry about such things.  Also, performance improvement is not necessarily a straight line: there can be plateaus and even dips (because you increased your training load) along the way. It’s long term improvement (over a training cycle, season, or year) that matters. Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!"  –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

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It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year.  If Temperature changes throughout the year.

Sorry, I was thinking "month" and typed "year".  It depends on where you live, of course, but you might see a change of 10-15F at the same time of day over the course of a month but see a change of 30F over the course of a single day.

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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…

You could take a look at this: http://www.zdap.com/running/article.htm Paul

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<< For the purposes of this discussion, fitness means race performance. Something that doesn’t translate into race performance doesn’t count. indeed, contextual definition of terms. (Aristotle! that you?) _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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<< Because that will cause you to train your "carb oxidation system", which will make Og the low carb caveman god unhappy, and he’ll hurl rocks at you from above. Don’t try to run it fast. wise, rocks hurt. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time.  A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.  

The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example).   3) compare your times.  If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.  

This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve.  But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch. And that’s it.  It’s simple, easily incorporated in your workout schedule, and provides positive reinforcement that you’re making progress.  Or early warning if there’s a problem.  Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs.

It might or might not. As Donovan points out you can use races to measure improvement in specific events, but you may go months between races and

I think it would be desirable to race more frequently. Unless you’re living in a place where races are unavailable, I don’t see much reason for a competitive runner not to race quite often. I also pointed out that you can use speed workouts, and because the intensity is higher, these are not subject to the same amount of variability as training runs. conditions will inevitably be different.  

This is also true of training runs. An interval workout on a track minimises the variation (because it’s less affected by heat than a race or steady run) Or you could maintain a database of all runs but

that would be really silly. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time.  A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.   The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example).  

This is the first that I’ve heard it could change so quickly.  I thought change was on the order of one point/year. BTW, an experienced runner can go by feel.  An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect. 3) compare your times.  If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.   This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve.  But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch.

I thought her program was for collegiate level runners.  But that doesn’t mean much since she could have easily dumbed it down for her audience. Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. It might or might not.

When would it go the other way?  N.B., I’m not refering to a change of a few seconds over a run of many miles, but perhaps something like a 5 to 10 second/mile change. I also pointed out that you can use speed workouts, and because the intensity is higher, these are not subject to the same amount of variability as training runs.

I actually found more variability in my speed workouts but that’s almost certainly because of the unfamilarity. conditions will inevitably be different.   This is also true of training runs.

It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year.  If it’s unusually warm or cold or rainy or whatever some run you don’t use it for comparison.

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2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time.  A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.   The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example).   This is the first that I’ve heard it could change so quickly.  I thought change was on the order of one point/year.

It can change depending on how heavy your training is. My max heart rate has varied by as much as 10 points or so, depending on how heavy my training is at the time. BTW, an experienced runner can go by feel.  

True to some extent, but it’s not really predictive of race performance. Usually if your training runs get slower, it’s a sign that you’re struggling with the training load, and if they get faster, it either means that you’re reducing the training load, or adapting to it. They are too far from maximal to mean a whole lot. An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect.

You can use it for some things, but predicting race times isn’t one of them. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. 3) compare your times.  If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.   This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve.  But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch. I thought her program was for collegiate level runners.  But that

Then I disagree that aerobic training runs will get faster over such a short interval of time. This has not been my experience. Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. It might or might not. When would it go the other way?  

When you increase training load. N.B., I’m not refering to a change of a few seconds over a run of many miles, but perhaps something like a 5 to 10 second/mile change.

I don’t believe a 5 to 10 second per mile improvement in race times will be as easy to detect in training runs as it would in a race or an interval workout. I actually found more variability in my speed workouts but that’s almost certainly because of the unfamilarity.

If you perform the same workout twice on a track, and you do the workout correctly, they shouldn’t vary much at all. The average times for my last 4×1200m workouts vary from about 4:07 to 4:10 and most of that variation is accounted for by a monotonic downward trend. It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year.  If

Temperature changes throughout the year. it’s unusually warm or cold or rainy or whatever some run you don’t use it for comparison.

The problem is that any day of summer is unusually hot compared to any day of winter. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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I am confused. Let’s say I run a 5.6 mile run on a routine basis. Let’s say that I ran it at 56 minutes before, and after some training, I can run it at 48 minutes. Would that not be an improvement?

If you get faster by over a minute per mile, even you will be able to work out that you’re getting fitter without using a spreadsheet. Why can’t I try to run as fast as to not be too uncomfortable?

Because that will cause you to train your "carb oxidation system", which will make Og the low carb caveman god unhappy, and he’ll hurl rocks at you from above. Don’t try to run it fast. Races are the best measure of progress. The next best is a particular speed workout. For example, I can use my 4×1200 track workout, because this is a workout I often come back to. Training runs are not very useful as a measure of fitness though. I agree that races are the best measure of progress, but would performance on a known run not be a decent measure of progress?

If you’re getting faster by minutes per mile, it will be plainly obvious. You won’t need a spreadsheet to work it out. To detect progress on the order of seconds per mile, you will need a maximal effort on an accurately measured course. A favourite speed workout on a track is ideal for this, as is a race. My fast speed if 7:52 mpm, measured over one mile. I thought, perhaps foolishly, that I would run at about 10% slower speed for much longer.

Depends. Mile times don’t reliably predict longer distances. My bests: 1 mile: 4:51 5 mile: 28:27 (5:41 per mile) I think I could at best do about 5:20 per mile in a good 2 mile race. (I attempted this year it and couldn’t quite do it, but it wasn’t a great race. the 5 mile and 1 mile races were.) So 10% slowdown only gets me as far as 2 miles. But there is a lot of variability in 1 mile time for a fixed 5k performance. This is less true of distances 5k through half marathon, which relaibly predict each other, because they largely depend on the same thing (aerobic fitness) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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<< Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi Cheers! Indeed. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof).

I’ve been using an idea Lorraine Moller said she uses with the people she coaches.  She calls it a "benchmark" run. 1) find some reasonable distance and course.  I decided on 6 miles since it’s about half of a typical long run and I had a dirt course with only one street crossing.  (Well twice when you count out and back.) 2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time.  A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.  (You don’t need to check it during the run, just make sure the average HR was within a point of your target.) 3) compare your times.  If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.  Sometimes you’ll have bad weeks but the overall tendency should be down. And that’s it.  It’s simple, easily incorporated in your workout schedule, and provides positive reinforcement that you’re making progress.  Or early warning if there’s a problem.  Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. As Donovan points out you can use races to measure improvement in specific events, but you may go months between races and conditions will inevitably be different.  Their benefit is that they make it easy to compare yourself to others. Or you could maintain a database of all runs but how do you compare a 4 mile run in the morning with a 6 mile run in the afternoon?

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 You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness.

Isn’t this the very definition of fitness – amount of work that can be done with the same effort? N.B. I’m not saying the improvement can be translated to meaningful units, just that improvements in your training run pace    on an identical course indicates an improvement in fitness.

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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… i

I use Excel sheet I made myself. Aside from races (the ultimate measure of performance), I do frequent "field" tests.  For instance, I do a 6 minute all out run.  The farther I go, the faster I am getting.  I also use this data to set training intensities.  I also use my regular lactate threshold runs as a good check on fitness. There are numerous websites that allow free logging of training.  I just found them to be more trouble for me than they were worth.

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 You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness. Isn’t this the very definition of fitness – amount of work that can be done with the same effort?

There are many problems with using training runs as a measure of performance: (1) it’s difficult to verify that "effort" is indeed constant.  If the level of effort is 100%, as in a race, then there is no guesswork. And no, a heart rate monitor isn’t in my opinion good enough to reliably and actively measure "effort". (2) performance on submaximal exercise may not reliably predict performance in a race. I’ve had good race performances even when I wasn’t doing my training runs at a very fast pace. (3) If the progress metric is training pace, then it follows that performing the training runs as quickly as possible is a training goal. There is an obvious problem with this. N.B. I’m not saying the improvement can be translated to meaningful units, just that improvements in your training run pace on an identical course indicates an improvement in fitness.

For the purposes of this discussion, fitness means race performance. Something that doesn’t translate into race performance doesn’t count. Of course if you can do the same training run a 30 seconds per mile faster and you’re more or less aerobic, that indicates an improvement in fitness. But you don’t need a spreadsheet to work that out, do you ? The big improvements in fitness will be plainly obvious, and the more incremental gains cannot be reliably measured by training runs. Therefore, using a spreadsheet to track "progress" in training runs serves little purpose other than to provide idiots with hours of amusement. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… Spreadsheet. I use it mostly to track milage across different shoes, and keep a diary. Makes sense, thanks. Do you have pre-measured mileage for your runs also?

Yep. There are a number of high and low tech ways to do this — measure it either with a GPS, SDM like the Fitsense or Nike, bike meter, mapping software (e.g. Microsoft streets and trips), or just estimate it. Tracking performance is simple enough — enter some races, and keep track of WAVA scores or some other performance index. Well, I would like to see if I can run my distances faster than before.

This subverts the purpose of your training, because you’re not supposed to be pushing the pace on your training runs. You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness. Races are the best measure of progress. The next best is a particular speed workout. For example, I can use my 4×1200 track workout, because this is a workout I often come back to. Training runs are not very useful as a measure of fitness though. Since I run different routes, it would be good to use a spreadsheet to compare and keep track of various routes.

Yep. I don’t think it’s useful to try to set a PR on every single workout, or to do exactly the same speed work each time. I agree. I want to get very used to running with a higher speed than I did at the half marathon. I will try to run as far as I can at about 8.5 minutes per mile, for some time.

Before you do that, pick up a book … any book. I think you mentioned you’d picked up the Glover book. 5k pace is not appropriate for day-to-day training runs. You can’t run fast and long. You can run fast and short (speed work, heavily carb dependent!!! trains vo2 max and running economy) or slow and long (more fat utilisation, because it’s partly metabolic cellular level training). Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use?  A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…

Spreadsheet. I use it mostly to track milage across different shoes, and keep a diary. Tracking performance is simple enough — enter some races, and keep track of WAVA scores or some other performance index. I don’t think it’s useful to try to set a PR on every single workout, or to do exactly the same speed work each time. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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You’ll have to run until you injure yourself to find out.

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don’t listen to barf bag, he rarely has anything positive to say.

Next the arsehole will accuse me of being insulting… dickhead.

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don’t listen to barf bag, he rarely has anything positive to say.

How can I be positive when the end of the world is upon us, and everything sucks?

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Hi everyone, I am nearly 13years old and want to start running. I can manage a mile non – stop, and want to know, how far I can safely run without risk of injuring myself. Thanks, Natalie

My daughter is also 13 and just joined her high school’s cross country running team.  They race 3 miles nearly every week.  She’s gone from being able to run a mile to being able to run three miles in about three weeks just by going out after school every day and running.  She’s mostly been running as long as she can until she has to stop and then walking the rest of the way.  Personally, I run as long as I can without having to stop then walk for a brief interval and then run again when I feel like I can.  I’ve gotten much better very quickly with this method… PROVIDED that I go out running at least three times a week, preferably four times.  As in so many other things, practice makes a big difference. You should also learn how to stretch and make warming up and cooling down part of your workout.  I’m an old fogey so a warm-up for me might be a brisk walk around the block (a quarter mile) and then start jogging slowly.  After about half a mile of jogging I stop and stretch my calves and quads and hamstrings and THEN I start any timed runs.  I do pretty much the same in reverse when I’m done with my run.  I’ve noticed my daughter’s coach has them doing pretty much the same thing. You can get more complex than this: run intervals, run acceleration strides, run hills, etc… but for now just start with running interspersed with walking.  Warm-up and then do half an hour of run/walking and see where you are. Good luck!  It’s a great sport.  I was 13 when I started cross country running, too.  One reason I chose it was that it was an activity that I could continue into adulthood.  I mean, you don’t see a pickup game of Field Hockey happening before work when you’re a grown-up!  But you can   get in a nice run before your morning shower.  It works for me. An added advantage to starting when you’re thirteen is you do some great bone building.  When you’re 90 and you’ve got strong hips it’ll literally save your life.  (Most really old people who break their hips are dead soon after in a downward spiral that starts with the hip break.)  I know that’s too far for you to imagine, but looking back now I’m glad I was a runner during my "bone building" years.  Just make sure you get lots of calcium.  In fact, learn how to feed your body and you’ll be miles ahead of your peers! By the way, it’s spelled "beginner".  :-) Dally

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don’t listen to barf bag, he rarely has anything positive to say. the web is full of advice on how to get started, one such site is http://www.halhigdon.com/ it all boils down to starting slow and building up your mileage over time…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone, I am nearly 13years old and want to start running. I can manage a mile non – stop, and want to know, how far I can safely run without risk of injuring myself. Thanks, Natalie

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Hi everyone, I am nearly 13years old and want to start running. I can manage a mile non – stop, and want to know, how far I can safely run without risk of injuring myself. Thanks, Natalie

You’re too young, never run before 30YO.

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Hi everyone, I am nearly 13years old and want to start running. I can manage a mile non – stop, and want to know, how far I can safely run without risk of injuring myself. Thanks, Natalie

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I want to have a sinus endoscopic procedure to see if it helps me with chronic sinus congestion. doc says it will be a half hour outpatient procedure. so my question is i have a long distance running race coming up in mid-october.. should i wait till after the race ? how long will I be decommissioned after the procedure (ie how long will I not be able to do strenuous excercise afterwards or go to work) ? will i necessarily need to wear the pernicious packing everybody talks about ? and for how long ?

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On 15 Aug 2005 15:03:32 -0700, example2…@hotmail.com wrote: >I want to have a sinus endoscopic procedure to see if it helps me with >chronic sinus congestion. doc says it will be a half hour outpatient >procedure.

That is enough time only for an extremely minor procedure (or, I hate to mention the possibility,  a too-rushed attempt at a major procedure) However, without even knowing what precedure it is (and many are possible) it is impossible to say much.   Please find out the exact medical names of all procedures that will be performed (you can say that you need them for the insurance form of a secondary insurer if you want). Most of the serious procedures really are usually done under general anesthetic in a hospital for safety.  So I am wondering exactly what this doctor is planning…. >so my question is i have a long distance running race coming up in >mid-october.. should i wait till after the race ?

Maybe maybe not (see above)….. >how long will I be decommissioned after the procedure (ie how long will >I not be able to do strenuous excercise afterwards or go to work) ?

It depends on the procedure and the way it is done so you will have to ask the doctor.   Just call and ask his nurse. >will i necessarily need to wear the pernicious packing everybody talks >about ? and for how long ?

It varies – mine was only for 16 hours.  Some leave it in longer.  A very few do not use packing……

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example2…@hotmail.com wrote: > I want to have a sinus endoscopic procedure to see if it helps me with > chronic sinus congestion. doc says it will be a half hour outpatient > procedure. > so my question is i have a long distance running race coming up in > mid-october.. should i wait till after the race ? > how long will I be decommissioned after the procedure (ie how long will > I not be able to do strenuous excercise afterwards or go to work) ?

Ask your surgeon. In my case, I was out of action for quite a while, because I developed a post-operative infection (which happens all too often with sinus surgery).  If I hadn’t gotten an infection, I probably could have started doing exercise in a few weeks or so. > will i necessarily need to wear the pernicious packing everybody talks > about ? and for how long ?

Again, you should ask your surgeon. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Email:  sdlit…@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

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i’ve been walking twice a day, almost 30 minutes each time.  it’s very healthy. now i just need to stop smoking. i’ve been trying to read more, but it’s slow going.  my mind is pretty strange. i want to play golf, but we don’t have flags in all the holes.  i can’t remember where the holes are. m.

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> i’ve been walking twice a day, almost 30 minutes each time.  it’s very > healthy.

walking is good for you gravity. I just got some snazzy white New Balance running shoes, though I no longer run.  They are emblazened with a big bold "N", which goes over well in Nebraska.  The shoe is model "608" which is the test code for the EPA procedure I used to perform, EPA Method 608.  I am wearing levis "505" jeans and I used to perform in the laboratory EPA Method 505.

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>> i’ve been walking twice a day, almost 30 minutes each time.  it’s very >> healthy. > walking is good for you gravity. > I just got some snazzy white New Balance running shoes, though I no longer > run.  They are emblazened with a big bold "N", which goes over well in > Nebraska.  The shoe is model "608" which is the test code for the EPA > procedure I used to perform, EPA Method 608.  I am wearing levis "505" > jeans and I used to perform in the laboratory EPA Method 505.

Maybe I’ll try to get some walking in.  But the only walking I have been doing is behind a lawnmower.  I have already mowed three times this season and it isn’t even May yet. Jim

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hi michael That’s good that you are walking.  I used to walk everyday when I was on a haldol and seroquel combo.  Now I am on geodon and haven’t gone for a walk in two years though sometimes I will walk to the store. penguin

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michael Do you think you have problems reading because of olanzapine?  I couldn’t read at all when I was on olanzapine.  Other medications like haldol slowed my mind down too much to read.  Have you thought of trying a different medication? penguin

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"lazy dog" <arf…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:1Scae.28$Bb.27@okepread06… > Maybe I’ll try to get some walking in.  But the only walking I have been > doing is behind a lawnmower.  I have already mowed three times this season > and it isn’t even May yet.

Is it some kind of super-fast-growing grass, or do you just enjoy mowing the lawn? Miki

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>> Maybe I’ll try to get some walking in.  But the only walking I have been >> doing is behind a lawnmower.  I have already mowed three times this >> season and it isn’t even May yet. > Is it some kind of super-fast-growing grass, or do you just enjoy mowing > the lawn? > Miki

I HATE mowing, but spring is early here.  I mow once a week and have already mowed three times in April.

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I have a very wide (D, maybe E) instep, and a very narrow heel.

I have very long, narrow feet both in the heel and toes 8.5AA. Asics running shoes fit very nicely.  But I’m 5′5". If I was built like my feet, I’d be tall and thin….sigh… Martha

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I wear D’s as well.  Try Maryland Square.  I’ve been buying from them for years, they have tons of styles of boots, shoes, sandals, and exercise shoes and they ship reliably.  I find the trick with exercise shoes is run the laces through ALL the holes to snug the heel up properly.  NO I don’t work for Maryland Square. http://www.marylandsquare.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a very wide (D, maybe E) instep, and a very narrow heel. I have to seek very flexible shoes, or else my heel constantly slides in and out of the shoe while walking.  The around-the-heel inserts they used to put in my shoes when I was a child never seemed to work in adulthood, they just caused even more rubbing as my heel slid in and out. For 20 some-odd years, I wore old-fashioned canvas Keds as a casual shoe, white ones at home, and the all-black including black rubber and grommets at work — until a few years ago, when they altered the "last" (form) when they added the terrycloth lining and called it "classic".  Suddenly their WW was only as wide as the W used to be and half a size longer, and they didn’t fit right any more. With much searching in several shoes stores, trying to find a sneaker that was both wide enough and flexible enough,  I finally found one, a leather Easy Spirit model, that fit the bill.  They didn’t have as much arch support as the Keds had had, so I added a Dr Scholl’s arch support insert (men’s, women’s is too narrow for a wide shoe) for my flat duck-feet, and wore them very comfortably for the past 2 1/2 years, and they are pretty worn out. I’ve had difficulty finding this model again, as neither the model number nor name was on the tag in the tongue of the shoe, and this particular model was not shown on the Easy Spirit Website.  I wasn’t able to find anything else in 3 or 4 shoe stores that was both wide enough and flexible enough for my foot to stay in it. Somebody suggested the Famous Footwear chain for wide shoes, and I went there last week.  Much to my surprise, they had the exact model Easy Spirit that I was looking to replace  – it’s the Strand. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize until I got home that the ones I was wearing were 2W width, and the two pair I brought home were just W. When I brought them back to the store for an exchange, they didn’t stock the 2W in the store, *but* they offered to send the two pair of 2W Strand from the warehouse to my home for no charge.  I’m very happy, and now I know the model name in case I want to stock up on more pairs, just in case this one is discontinued. (The store said I’d be able to order them online in the future, but unfortunately, Easy Spirit brand doesn’t seem to be listed on the Famous Footwear website.  But google turns up plenty of online shoe stores selling the Easy Spirit Strand model in the 2W width.) —  "There’s a seeker born every minute."

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I have a very wide (D, maybe E) instep, and a very narrow heel. I have to seek very flexible shoes, or else my heel constantly slides in and out of the shoe while walking.  The around-the-heel inserts they used to put in my shoes when I was a child never seemed to work in adulthood, they just caused even more rubbing as my heel slid in and out. For 20 some-odd years, I wore old-fashioned canvas Keds as a casual shoe, white ones at home, and the all-black including black rubber and grommets at work — until a few years ago, when they altered the "last" (form) when they added the terrycloth lining and called it "classic".  Suddenly their WW was only as wide as the W used to be and half a size longer, and they didn’t fit right any more. With much searching in several shoes stores, trying to find a sneaker that was both wide enough and flexible enough,  I finally found one, a leather Easy Spirit model, that fit the bill.  They didn’t have as much arch support as the Keds had had, so I added a Dr Scholl’s arch support insert (men’s, women’s is too narrow for a wide shoe) for my flat duck-feet, and wore them very comfortably for the past 2 1/2 years, and they are pretty worn out. I’ve had difficulty finding this model again, as neither the model number nor name was on the tag in the tongue of the shoe, and this particular model was not shown on the Easy Spirit Website.  I wasn’t able to find anything else in 3 or 4 shoe stores that was both wide enough and flexible enough for my foot to stay in it. Somebody suggested the Famous Footwear chain for wide shoes, and I went there last week.  Much to my surprise, they had the exact model Easy Spirit that I was looking to replace  – it’s the Strand. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize until I got home that the ones I was wearing were 2W width, and the two pair I brought home were just W. When I brought them back to the store for an exchange, they didn’t stock the 2W in the store, *but* they offered to send the two pair of 2W Strand from the warehouse to my home for no charge.  I’m very happy, and now I know the model name in case I want to stock up on more pairs, just in case this one is discontinued. (The store said I’d be able to order them online in the future, but unfortunately, Easy Spirit brand doesn’t seem to be listed on the Famous Footwear website.  But google turns up plenty of online shoe stores selling the Easy Spirit Strand model in the 2W width.) —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

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