Run Run Away

Question:

  THe woman’s result was even more spectacular. Uta (cant remember last name) won. It was a course record, if not a new world record. I watched it one Prime Network today. Supposedly, the strong tailwind in the second half of the course was very helpful.

Uta Pippig.  Yes, a new course record.  Third fastest marathon ever. 2:21:45 I think it was.  And I believe that the winning man’s time was also a course record (Cosmas Ndeti?, 2:07:14?) — Milt Epstein Department of Computer Science University of Illinois

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   THe woman’s result was even more spectacular. Uta (cant remember last name) won. It was a course record, if not a new world record. I watched it one Prime Network today. Supposedly, the strong tailwind in the second half of the course was very helpful.

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Here is a request for comments on the differences with heel stikers and toe strikers, that’s landing on the heel first then rolling thru the mid-foot and pushing off the toes, verses landing on the fore-foot and pushing off of the fore-foot. Is this a condition determined by the biomechanics of an individual? Can a heel striker "learn" to becomne a toe striker, and vice versa? Are there benefits or drawbacks to being one over the other?

Yeah, I did a research paper on such a thing  last winter.. lemme pull it up and type it in and send it here.. hope it will help .. hey i did get a 97 on it.. so maybe it has some good info <g chuck.. will be up soon —    |-,/  |  | | |        |–<  |  |<  |-    |    |__| |  | o o o  |__/  |  | |__ o o o . . .

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Nope, a mid-pack finisher is one of those people who did the race at a jog and not a run.  For further information, look into who jogging differs from running.

AAAAAARRRRGH!  NO! NO! NO!!!  NOT THE RUNNING VS. JOGGING DEBATES AGAIN!!! Oh, very well, I’ll start it off. Runners wear running shoes.  Joggers wear sneakers… #include <disclaimer.h                |____|

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a 46 year old, mid-pack, runner into his 14th year and have been content So, I’ve heard this term a lot, what does it mean?  Who/what is a "mid-pack" runner? The official definition of mid-pack runner is "someone who finishes behind me." Tom Carminati Yeah, but that puts about 95% of us as mid-pack!!!  8-)  8-)  8-) KAC Opinions? Can anyone actually _have_ opinions, or are they no more than dust motes floating in the sunlight of collective intellect. Kenny A. Chaffin                            {…boulder}!uswat!ken 4001 Discovery Drive   Boulder, CO 80303          (303) 541-6355

Well, "me" is subjective.  It’s all of matter of perspective.  The same applies to the definitions of old and young. Tom Carminati U S WEST Advanced Technologies Disclaimer???… I didn’t say it.  You can’t prove I said it…

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I am a 46 year old, mid-pack, runner into his 14th year and have been content So, I’ve heard this term a lot, what does it mean?  Who/what is a "mid-pack" runner? The official definition of mid-pack runner is "someone who finishes behind me." Tom Carminati

Yeah, but that puts about 95% of us as mid-pack!!!  8-)  8-)  8-) KAC Opinions? Can anyone actually _have_ opinions, or are they no more than dust motes floating in the sunlight of collective intellect. Kenny A. Chaffin                            {…boulder}!uswat!ken 4001 Discovery Drive   Boulder, CO 80303          (303) 541-6355

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 [lotso stuff deleted] 3. Ball striking leads to injuries, especially in the knees. The explanation is simple.  The knee joint can not take as much pressure if it is bend versus straight. Look in any book about anatomy and you will understand why. Two runner friends of me, who are ball strikers had a knee surgery already.

        I really think you have to do what is natural for you. I mean you can smooth out your stride maby shorten it or lenthin it, go up on your toes for a sprint. I’m a fore foot striker. when I tried to switch to a heal strike I was in hell I couldn’t run for over 10 miniutes with out excrutiating pain in my knee.         I did every thing iced it took time off. came back slowly running only on dirt. nothing helped, only when I  went back to a fore foot strike did it get better.(no problems for three weeks). john matthew guris  +   Is he dreaming?  Yes, perhaps.  But if he does not CS WPI 1994         +   reality.        - Peter N. Coe

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: : The official definition of mid-pack runner is "someone who finishes behind : me." Nope, a mid-pack finisher is one of those people who did the race at a jog and not a run.  For further information, look into who jogging differs from running. Dave.

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: Is this a condition determined by the biomechanics of an individual? : Can a heel striker "learn" to becomne a toe striker, and vice versa? : Are there benefits or drawbacks to being one over the other? On the (admittedly questionable) advice of my coach, I began forefoot striking last spring. I have grown used to it to the point where it feels as weird to run on my heels as it once did to run on my toes, but the complications go deeper than that. You are working muscles and joints more (I think) to take the force you once put on your bones. I have been doin this for six months and have yet to have a real good race; I’ve either been injured, or not peaking. I haven’t peaked, in fact, since then. I’ve been injured twice, both due to the changes in my form. I still think I can do this, but the strains and changes may not be worth the trouble for you. — "Only came outside to watch the night fall with the rain" -DD

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[ some stuff deleted]    They later go on to say that you shouldn’t use ball-heel until you are able    to run at a quick pace (about a 6:00-7:00 mile).  At that pace you can run    with a lighter foot strike.  It is difficult to run a 6:00 mile pace on    your heels.  I find myself automatically switching from heel-ball to    ball-heel as I pick up the pace to about 6:20 miles.  I do it without even    realizing it.  I think you should do the same and not worry about it until    it begins to make the difference of winning that marathon.  At that point    you’ll probably already be running ball-heel naturally and be in shape enough    to handle it.    – I want to add some notes from my personal experience. 1. The above threshold pace is definitly not true. As a natural heel striker- I am running my races down to 5k and 3k this way; eg. 5k PR = 15:15, this means a 4:55 per mile pace. 2. Heel striking does NOT slow you down if you use the right technique, which you  will learn automatically. The key is not to break while landing on the heel but immedialtly roll on. 3. Ball striking leads to injuries, especially in the knees. The explanation is simple.  The knee joint can not take as much pressure if it is bend versus straight. Look in any book about anatomy and you will understand why. Two runner friends of me, who are ball strikers had a knee surgery already. wolf —     … always look on the bright side of life … (Monty Python) GMD-FIRST an der TU Berlin              German National Research Centre Tel. (Berlin 030) 6392-1908                 for Computer Science

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| : | : The official definition of mid-pack runner is "someone who finishes behind | : me." | | Nope, a mid-pack finisher is one of those people who did the race at a jog | and not a run.  For further information, look into who jogging differs from | running. Nope.  A mid-pack runner is one who finishes the race between the 10th and 11th cigarette. — Ray Charbonneau              | The IBM compatible sector has not yet recognized Disclaimer?  Why?            | styles in documents. – Ron Reiner

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| | Is this a condition determined by the biomechanics of an individual? | Can a heel striker "learn" to becomne a toe striker, and vice versa?

Most world class athletes are forefoot strikers.  It’s the most effcient way to run fast.  When a runners heel hits the ground, it hits the ground in front of the runner, and a braking action happens.  Sticking your heel out in front of yourself slows you down.   Running on the balls of your feet with your foot landing underneath your body does not slow you down — its more of a circular motion as you simply push yourself along.  When you land on your heel you must pull your body over your foot which landed in front of you before you can push off. Now, is changing your running style for everyone ??  Not likely, as most folks run for the fun of it to stay fit.  If you are serious about getting faster you might want to think about it. Gerry Thome (A former 4:06 miler, 29:47 10K runner…) — Gerry Thome                           IBM – Austin I don’t speak for IBM…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a 46 year old, mid-pack, runner into his 14th year and have been content with the fact that I am a heel striker.  On my runs recently, I have observed some folks that are toe strikers.  I attempted to alter my running and … So, I’ve heard this term a lot, what does it mean?  Who/what is a "mid-pack" runner? Is this someone totally non-competitive, that is they cannot finish in the top 5% of the runners at a race?  I define it literally, a mid-pack runner is someone who finishes faster than the slowest 25% but slower than the fastest 25% of all runners of same sex as the runner in question. They may be "mid-pack" but are probably competitive in their own right, be it a Clydesdale, age-factor, injury/illness recovery, whatever. So, the top 5% to 25% are the aspiring wanna-be’s searching for improvement and trying to balance a full-time job and their running/training schedules. Regardless, mid-packers and faster, everyone seems to have a pretty good social & fun time at the races. Road racing and running totally fascinate me.  My goal in life is to take those last damn 2 minutes from my 10K’s and break that 40 minute Barrier! — Ken Papai, Sunnyvale, Calif.

The official definition of mid-pack runner is "someone who finishes behind me." Tom Carminati U S WEST Advanced Technologies Disclaimer???… I didn’t say it.  You can’t prove I said it…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | Is this a condition determined by the biomechanics of an individual? | Can a heel striker "learn" to becomne a toe striker, and vice versa?      DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN’TTTTTTTTTTTTT. Some will claim you can alter your stride until it becomes second nature. Running is first nature. Go to a playground and watch kids running. | Are there benefits or drawbacks to being one over the other? | I am a 46 year old, mid-pack, runner into his 14th year and have been content | with the fact that I am a heel striker.  On my runs recently, I have observed | some folks that are toe strikers.  I attempted to alter my running and am amble | to land on the for-foot. It feels odd.   And you will likely injure yourself. The nice thing about distance running is that the more you do it, the more efficient you become, based on *your* naturally biomechanics. I believe that most people think *far* too much about this simple act, and end up thinking their way to poor performance and/or injury. Forget the heart monitor, forget the pedometer, forget it all. Lace up the shoes and head out the door. (Don’t forget your shorts.) If you need to spend toys, become a bicyclist. Richard Barrett A recovering 10×400m intervaller. A practicing 6 x 800m intervaller.

I agree with Richard 100%.  If you read Bob Glover’s book, "The New Competetive Runner’s Handbook" he says, "Coaches, elite runners, sports doctors, exercise physiologists, and even the authors of this book disagree on what method is best.  Most track coaches promote ball-heel foot strike in order to achieve maximum speed.  Generally, doctors and fitness experts prefer the heel-ball method, which minimizes injury.  Pete Schuder spent most of his life running ball-heel; he had to use this method as a national class quarter-miler.  As a track coach, he mostly trained runners in distances under 10K — events that require more speed.  Bob Glover, on the other hand, spent most of his life running heel-ball as a marathoner.  As a fitness teacher, he promotes heel-ball for safety reasons.  But as Glover got much faster as a runner, he started naturally running more ball-heel in races and then in training runs.  He still uses heel-ball when he isn’t in top shape, but learned from Pete how to perfect ball-heel form to help improve his race times.  In turn, Pete learned from Bob that the average runner cannot handle the stress of the ball-heel foot strike." They later go on to say that you shouldn’t use ball-heel until you are able to run at a quick pace (about a 6:00-7:00 mile).  At that pace you can run with a lighter foot strike.  It is difficult to run a 6:00 mile pace on your heels.  I find myself automatically switching from heel-ball to ball-heel as I pick up the pace to about 6:20 miles.  I do it without even realizing it.  I think you should do the same and not worry about it until it begins to make the difference of winning that marathon.  At that point you’ll probably already be running ball-heel naturally and be in shape enough to handle it. — *  Cory Schofield                       * *  (801) 776-9186                       *

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| | Is this a condition determined by the biomechanics of an individual? | Can a heel striker "learn" to becomne a toe striker, and vice versa?      DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN’TTTTTTTTTTTTT. Some will claim you can alter your stride until it becomes second nature. Running is first nature. Go to a playground and watch kids running. | Are there benefits or drawbacks to being one over the other? No doubt others will claim heel striking "the marathoner" stride. I think this originated with Alberto Salazar (yet if you look closely, he is *not* landing on his heels). It is odd that so many people picked up on this alleged heel striking, seeing as Bill Rodgers, the (ok, a ) god of marathoning is the most pronounced forefoot striker I have ever seen. Also Frank Shorter is a forefoot striker.    I am a forefoot striker. You are a heel striker. As Stuart Smally would say, "and that’s…ok." | I am a 46 year old, mid-pack, runner into his 14th year and have been content | with the fact that I am a heel striker.  On my runs recently, I have observed | some folks that are toe strikers.  I attempted to alter my running and am amble | to land on the for-foot. It feels odd.   And you will likely injure yourself. | | I’d be interest to hear from those of you out there on the net.  If the | comments warrant I can post them for others to read. | The nice thing about distance running is that the more you do it, the more efficient you become, based on *your* naturally biomechanics. I believe that most people think *far* too much about this simple act, and end up thinking their way to poor performance and/or injury. Forget the heart monitor, forget the pedometer, forget it all. Lace up the shoes and head out the door. (Don’t forget your shorts.) If you need to spend toys, become a bicyclist. Richard Barrett A recovering 10×400m intervaller. A practicing 6 x 800m intervaller.

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I am a 46 year old, mid-pack, runner into his 14th year and have been content

with the fact that I am a heel striker.  On my runs recently, I have observed some folks that are toe strikers.  I attempted to alter my running and …

So, I’ve heard this term a lot, what does it mean?  Who/what is a "mid-pack" runner? Is this someone totally non-competitive, that is they cannot finish in the top 5% of the runners at a race?  I define it literally, a mid-pack runner is someone who finishes faster than the slowest 25% but slower than the fastest 25% of all runners of same sex as the runner in question. They may be "mid-pack" but are probably competitive in their own right, be it a Clydesdale, age-factor, injury/illness recovery, whatever. So, the top 5% to 25% are the aspiring wanna-be’s searching for improvement and trying to balance a full-time job and their running/training schedules. Regardless, mid-packers and faster, everyone seems to have a pretty good social & fun time at the races. Road racing and running totally fascinate me.  My goal in life is to take those last damn 2 minutes from my 10K’s and break that 40 minute Barrier! — Ken Papai, Sunnyvale, Calif.

Response:

Here is a request for comments on the differences with heel stikers and toe strikers, that’s landing on the heel first then rolling thru the mid-foot and pushing off the toes, verses landing on the fore-foot and pushing off of the fore-foot. Is this a condition determined by the biomechanics of an individual? Can a heel striker "learn" to becomne a toe striker, and vice versa? Are there benefits or drawbacks to being one over the other? I am a 46 year old, mid-pack, runner into his 14th year and have been content with the fact that I am a heel striker.  On my runs recently, I have observed some folks that are toe strikers.  I attempted to alter my running and am amble to land on the for-foot. It feels odd. I’d be interest to hear from those of you out there on the net.  If the comments warrant I can post them for others to read. Thanks Frank Mock Inland Steel Company

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Any suggestions to healing pulled groin muscle. Have tried stretching and can walk, bike, skate ski but not run without tightness,.

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From my experience, Tigers are worthless.  They do nothing but cause injuries. Unless you have perfect running form, I would strongly suggest that you choose another brand. Runner’s World is an excellent magazine to order from, however, unless you want Nikes.  They have always been courteous and quick to inform me of any specials and very often will wave any shipping costs. I personally run in the Nike Air Structures.  I used to run in the Air Max but am going to give the new ones a try.  If you want to try a lower priced yet very good running shoe, try the Nike Air Pegasus.  It usually runs around $45-$50. I’ve found an excellent place that sells Nikes for very cheap.  It’s called Holabird Sports Discounters and it is in Baltimore MD.  If you want the address, I can look it up for you. Jason

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From my experience, Tigers are worthless.  They do nothing but cause injuries.

I can remember several days when my Asics has done something than cause injuries I think that which shoes are the better depends more on the model than on the brand but most of all on the person who run in them. At least in Norway the Asics are a bit more expensive than Nikes so I guess that for a certain price group Nikes are better than Asics, but my opinion is that the most expensive Asics are far better than any of the Nikes. In a test done by the largest newspaper in Norway rated a few Asics models as the best. Asics had the best cushioning of the models tested. — Oystein Groevlen Division of Computer Systems and Telematics The Norwegian Institute of Technology The University of Trondheim

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From my experience, Tigers are worthless.  They do nothing but cause injuries. I think that which shoes are the better depends more on the model than on the brand but most of all on the person who run in them.

- I would second this wise piece of advice. I personally have found in twenty years of running that NIKE just doesn’t make shoes that work for me. MY feet/ankles/knee/hips work best in Asics of the various brands that I’ve tried. No one can tell you what shoe will work best for you without taking a good long look at your feet/legs/mileage and knowing your particular injury history. Sometimes you can find knowledgable people in shoe stores to help you, but that is extremely rare ( Ask them what their 10k P.R. is %-)!!). Since shoe companies tend to use the same set of lasts (models of the foot ) one way to explore different brands is to buy a cheap pair( but not too cheap) of a given brand and test them. Also , learn a little about the various methods of shoe construction, slip, Half-slip and board lasted. I run best on half-slip shoes and this allows me to eliminate alot of brands/models. Some general rules %-)!                feet best for         slip lasted       ——-     High Arches – flexible shoes                                         best for those who run on toes                                         not heels         Board Lasted      ——-     Flat Feet -Need really stable                                         shoes, best for heel pounders         Half lasted       ——-     Compromise of the above stable                                         heel and good toe flexiblity – Booker C. Bense

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From my experience, Tigers are worthless.  They do nothing but cause injuries. Unless you have perfect running form, I would strongly suggest that you choose another brand.

What absolute nonsense!  Tigers may not be right for you, but may be perfect for others (me, for instance).  Every time I’ve run in shoes that *aren’t* Tigers, I’ve gotten injured.  That doesn’t mean that the other shoes are junk, just that they don’t fit right or aren’t exactly what my running form requires. The ONLY way to find out what shoe is right for you is to experiment.  It gets expensive, but once you find a good pair of shoes, it’s worth it. Also, go to a store that understands runners, one where the salesmen won’t look surprised when you insist on going out for a 5 minute jog in the new shoes before buying them.  Once you’ve found your perfect shoe, then you can order from a discount place.   – marty disclaimer: ‘Salesmen’ are people of either sex.  I’m not sexist, just             snobbish about the language. —

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I also have run with the Air Pegasus for several years, but I can’t find them for less than $60 (retail).  Since Nike doesn’t allow mail order sales, can this Maryland discounter sell to me in California? I would like to know the address of this company if you can post it. Thanks, Dan Clavin

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[ included article deleted for brevity ] The ONLY way to find out what shoe is right for you is to experiment.  It gets expensive, but once you find a good pair of shoes, it’s worth it. Also, go to a store that understands runners, one where the salesmen won’t look surprised when you insist on going out for a 5 minute jog in the new shoes before buying them.  Once you’ve found your perfect shoe, then you can order from a discount place.

[ disclaimer deleted for brevity ] —

No, No, No. It is impolite at best to take up a salesman’s time and then take your business elsewhere. It is hard for small local businesses to survive and you’re not doing them any favors by wasting their time and then buying mail order. What you should do is go to your local running shoe store ( take your old shoes if you think you’re having a problem ), ask their advice, try some on and run in them if you feel like it, and then BUY the pair that suits you from the store. Sorry if I seem a little ticked off, but this kind of thing just bothers me. BTW, I have no connection with any store, running or otherwise. P.S. In Rochester, NY, try Jim Dalberth’s, 926 Genesee St. ( near Brooks ). —                 {rit,tropix,ur-valhalla}!moscom!tcm *** Watch this space for new uucp address – my home machine! ***

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