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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] Hello Group. I’ve started running just recently and have done 3-4 training sessions (90sec walk / 30 sec run / 9 reps). My weight is 104 kg / age 34 / have moderare overpronation / running in good cusioned asics 2090. Never had any probs with my knees but wasnt into any activity for several years ( Recently I’ve noticed that my knees are painfull. Its bearable when I walk but much more painfull when I run ( Should I stop training ( I do every 2 days ) OR just stop running but continue walking to get my joints working? Thanks in advance. Happy running ) Some previous posts that might be of help in your thinking about your knee, which most often than not is caused by the quads or the hamstrings being too tight. Post #1 Hi,         I am looking for a bit of advice, I have recently started to increase my mileage (outdoors, mostly on road) and in the last month or so my right knee has started to give me grief after running. Its a generally feeling of stiffness, slight discomfort not localized in any particular place but across the whole knee. It is particularly noticeable when going down stairs. It doesn’t give me any problems when running but a couple of hours after/next day it seems to stiffen up. From what i’ve read it seems to be "runners knee", I think I roll my right foot more than the left but whether that is the root cause I am not sure. I have read some of Ozzie’s posts on this or similar, (Sept 1st on rolling pins and facia release) and that is a long term cure/relief, what I was wonder is what I should do now? Stop running for a couple of weeks. Cut down on my running. Only run on soft surfaces or treadmills. Wear a (neoprene) knee support. Seek medical advice.  or none of the above. Any advice or help would be gratefully received. Neil Riddoch Neil, The rolling of the quads or massaging them is extremely helpful in loosening the quad muscle so that it can relax and release.  Once that happens, the muscles relaxes and takes the pressure off the tendon which then takes the pressure off the knee. As I’ve mentioned in other posts,  during a training run, I may stop 6 to 10 times to keep loosening the quads or hamstrings. Freeing the quads and working on the hamstring by using the edge of a chair on them or sitting on a tennis ball or later a baseball as a way to accupressure the hamstrings will do more for the release of tendons around the knee. Remember muscles relax and contract.  If they only partially relax, then the tendon has to take up that tension.  Tendons can stretch but they’re not suppose to.  It’s the muscles that relax and contract. Loosen that which is suppose to relax and unnecessary tension to the tendon disappears. If you are hitting on the back of the heel of the shoe as you run, as in heel striker, then you are giving your joints a beating.  We’re back to lifting the knees and marching in place to see what running is about.  If you are lifting your center of gravity with each step more than is needed, then you are coming back down to earth with a rather hard jar to the knees.  If you are landing on the back of the heel of the shoe, they your running is a deceleration with each step because of the overstride.  Overstride defined as your foot is landing in front of your center of gravity. Don’t know how much running you’re doing so don’t know if it’s about cutting down.  Practice lifting the knees as in marching in place and lean from the ankle.  Land softly ball then heel.  As soon as the heel touches that triggers the lifting of the other knee.  The transition means you don’t have to jump up and down with each step. I’m for running on uneven ground so as to get the foot/ankle and leg able to do what they’re suppose to do, adjust.  I have an article somewhere that talks about FSOS (Flat Surface Overuse Syndrome) We’ll be watching as you play with finding out what works for you.  As mentioned many times.  My stuff is folklore.  If it works for you, use it.  If it doesn’t don’t give it any (read: ZERO) energy and find someone that does make sense and whose folklore works for you.  And when you find that, come back and share it with me and the others so that we can educate ourselves better.  And finally when you can’t find any good folklore, create what works for you and then share it back here at rec.running for all of us to play with and test and experiment with. Post #2 I wrote here a few weeks ago. I had just started running and had a bad cramp in on calf(soleus) and achilles tendinitis in the other. Ozzie replied (thanks again)along with others who pointed me to Ozzie’s stuff. I took a few weeks off, did all the stretches, the marching exercises, the "stirrup" squat and started back running (quietly). The good news is that my calf problems are gone. Even with the running my AT gets better everyday. The question I have is about my quads. To run quietly ( as recommended) with a ball heel strike I find I have to maintain a sort of crouch. This is very hard on my quads. I am doing 2 minutes run/1 minute walk for 20 minutes and my quads can barely take it. Is this something I work through? Is it a technique problem? I already lift weights including squats and deadlifts.. Jerry Freedman Jerry, The second picture at http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp where the people are on hands and feet with the quads across the lower railing of a hand rail would be a way to massage out the quads.  You can use a rolling pin on the ground or a piece of PVC, inch and a half or two inch.  Most of the weight is on the forearms and toes and knees. Gradually you allow the railing/rolling pin/PVC to sink into the quads as you relax and allow the quads to let go but taking weight off the forearms and toes and knees.  Do it lovingly and gradually. Then you can begin to roll forward or backward to work the quads loose always keeping most of the weight on the feet, knees and forearms/hands.  Also continue to breathe and keep the face and shoulders relaxed otherwise you’re transferring the tension from one part of your body to another.  The various techniques of breathing used in helping women prepare for the birthing process follow the same  idea of keeping the body relaxed completely. Regarding loosening up the hamstrings to release the quads more, here’s a piece from a previous post: When sprinting, the quads(antagonists) get overstretched by the hamstrings  and gluts (agonists).  I think I read in John Jesse that hams and/or gluts account for 55% of the forward thrust when sprinting. As they contract to catapult the body forward, the quads and the illiopsoas are suppose to be relaxing and stretching to their max.  But if one’s posture is  prone to slouching, then the psoas is shortened and when overstretched as happens in sprinting, it contracts  or tightens to protect itself.  That tightening when joined by the Illiacus is deep and often one feels it in the origin of the illiacus at the top of the illiac crest of the pelvis.  It may be the symptom of the hamstrings having also tightened because they were strained because the quads only partially relaxed when they quads were to have been totally relaxed. So.  Get two baseballs.   Or more gently start with two tennis balls. Sit on a chair and let the tennis balls rest in the middle of the hamstring.  Or you can go up toward the sitz bones of the pelvis and roll across the tennis balls  by moving your body side to side over the tennis balls.  Up toward the sitz bones you’ll feel yourself going over tendons, feels like going over pieces of rope.  Just sitting on the tennis balls can act almost like an accupressure which can let the muscle’s tight spot or trigger point relax. If you want to see how tight one of the hams is, sit on the EDGE of the chair.  One leg has the foot on the ground with the foot under the knee, as most of of sit anyway.  The other leg is out straight resting on the heel.  Close to a 45 degree angle between the ground and the leg.  Stay slouched and lift up that straightened leg.   Now sit up straight so that you are sitting on your sitz bones and the body is erect.  Now lift up your leg and you’ll see that it’s harder to lift up the leg because the lifting muscle illiopsoas has to now work against your hamstring which has been stretched by you sitting up straight. So work on the hamstrings and loosen them by massage with the tennis balls and them gradually go to the baseballs. Also practice sitting up a quarter of an inch straighter during your day.  Remind yourself to do it ten times a day and know that it will only last 20 to 30 seconds each time.  This way you’re not straining the hams or the psoas and gradually you’ll elongate those muscles.  But they’re much easier to elongate if you’re doing the rolling with the tennis and/or baseballs when you’re sitting at your desk at your computer.  Sit in a chair which has no back and no arms, so that you are practicing the erect posture of a good runner.  Gradually as you stretch the hams, and psoas by good posture, it will effect your running so that the tone of the quads, hams and gluts will be such that their range of motion doesn’t restrict the range of motion of the agonist

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thanks )

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[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] Hello Group. I’ve started running just recently and have done 3-4 training sessions (90sec walk / 30 sec run / 9 reps). My weight is 104 kg / age 34 / have moderare overpronation / running in good cusioned asics 2090. Never had any probs with my knees but wasnt into any activity for several years ( Recently I’ve noticed that my knees are painfull. Its bearable when I walk but much more painfull when I run ( Should I stop training ( I do every 2 days ) OR just stop running but continue walking to get my joints working? Thanks in advance. Happy running )

Some previous posts that might be of help in your thinking about your knee, which most often than not is caused by the quads or the hamstrings being too tight. Post #1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,         I am looking for a bit of advice, I have recently started to increase my mileage (outdoors, mostly on road) and in the last month or so my right knee has started to give me grief after running. Its a generally feeling of stiffness, slight discomfort not localized in any particular place but across the whole knee. It is particularly noticeable when going down stairs. It doesn’t give me any problems when running but a couple of hours after/next day it seems to stiffen up. From what i’ve read it seems to be "runners knee", I think I roll my right foot more than the left but whether that is the root cause I am not sure. I have read some of Ozzie’s posts on this or similar, (Sept 1st on rolling pins and facia release) and that is a long term cure/relief, what I was wonder is what I should do now? Stop running for a couple of weeks. Cut down on my running. Only run on soft surfaces or treadmills. Wear a (neoprene) knee support. Seek medical advice.  or none of the above. Any advice or help would be gratefully received. Neil Riddoch

Neil, The rolling of the quads or massaging them is extremely helpful in loosening the quad muscle so that it can relax and release.  Once that happens, the muscles relaxes and takes the pressure off the tendon which then takes the pressure off the knee. As I’ve mentioned in other posts,  during a training run, I may stop 6 to 10 times to keep loosening the quads or hamstrings. Freeing the quads and working on the hamstring by using the edge of a chair on them or sitting on a tennis ball or later a baseball as a way to accupressure the hamstrings will do more for the release of tendons around the knee. Remember muscles relax and contract.  If they only partially relax, then the tendon has to take up that tension.  Tendons can stretch but they’re not suppose to.  It’s the muscles that relax and contract. Loosen that which is suppose to relax and unnecessary tension to the tendon disappears. If you are hitting on the back of the heel of the shoe as you run, as in heel striker, then you are giving your joints a beating.  We’re back to lifting the knees and marching in place to see what running is about.  If you are lifting your center of gravity with each step more than is needed, then you are coming back down to earth with a rather hard jar to the knees.  If you are landing on the back of the heel of the shoe, they your running is a deceleration with each step because of the overstride.  Overstride defined as your foot is landing in front of your center of gravity. Don’t know how much running you’re doing so don’t know if it’s about cutting down.  Practice lifting the knees as in marching in place and lean from the ankle.  Land softly ball then heel.  As soon as the heel touches that triggers the lifting of the other knee.  The transition means you don’t have to jump up and down with each step. I’m for running on uneven ground so as to get the foot/ankle and leg able to do what they’re suppose to do, adjust.  I have an article somewhere that talks about FSOS (Flat Surface Overuse Syndrome) We’ll be watching as you play with finding out what works for you.  As mentioned many times.  My stuff is folklore.  If it works for you, use it.  If it doesn’t don’t give it any (read: ZERO) energy and find someone that does make sense and whose folklore works for you.  And when you find that, come back and share it with me and the others so that we can educate ourselves better.  And finally when you can’t find any good folklore, create what works for you and then share it back here at rec.running for all of us to play with and test and experiment with.   Post #2 I wrote here a few weeks ago. I had just started running and had a bad cramp in on calf(soleus) and achilles tendinitis in the other. Ozzie replied (thanks again)along with others who pointed me to Ozzie’s stuff. I took a few weeks off, did all the stretches, the marching exercises, the "stirrup" squat and started back running (quietly). The good news is that my calf problems are gone. Even with the running my AT gets better everyday. The question I have is about my quads. To run quietly ( as recommended) with a ball heel strike I find I have to maintain a sort of crouch. This is very hard on my quads. I am doing 2 minutes run/1 minute walk for 20 minutes and my quads can barely take it. Is this something I work through? Is it a technique problem? I already lift weights including squats and deadlifts.. Jerry Freedman

Jerry, The second picture at http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp where the people are on hands and feet with the quads across the lower railing of a hand rail would be a way to massage out the quads.  You can use a rolling pin on the ground or a piece of PVC, inch and a half or two inch.  Most of the weight is on the forearms and toes and knees. Gradually you allow the railing/rolling pin/PVC to sink into the quads as you relax and allow the quads to let go but taking weight off the forearms and toes and knees.  Do it lovingly and gradually. Then you can begin to roll forward or backward to work the quads loose always keeping most of the weight on the feet, knees and forearms/hands.  Also continue to breathe and keep the face and shoulders relaxed otherwise you’re transferring the tension from one part of your body to another.  The various techniques of breathing used in helping women prepare for the birthing process follow the same  idea of keeping the body relaxed completely. Regarding loosening up the hamstrings to release the quads more, here’s a piece from a previous post: When sprinting, the quads(antagonists) get overstretched by the hamstrings  and gluts (agonists).  I think I read in John Jesse that hams and/or gluts account for 55% of the forward thrust when sprinting. As they contract to catapult the body forward, the quads and the illiopsoas are suppose to be relaxing and stretching to their max.  But if one’s posture is  prone to slouching, then the psoas is shortened and when overstretched as happens in sprinting, it contracts  or tightens to protect itself.  That tightening when joined by the Illiacus is deep and often one feels it in the origin of the illiacus at the top of the illiac crest of the pelvis.  It may be the symptom of the hamstrings having also tightened because they were strained because the quads only partially relaxed when they quads were to have been totally relaxed.   So.  Get two baseballs.   Or more gently start with two tennis balls. Sit on a chair and let the tennis balls rest in the middle of the hamstring.  Or you can go up toward the sitz bones of the pelvis and roll across the tennis balls  by moving your body side to side over the tennis balls.  Up toward the sitz bones you’ll feel yourself going over tendons, feels like going over pieces of rope.  Just sitting on the tennis balls can act almost like an accupressure which can let the muscle’s tight spot or trigger point relax. If you want to see how tight one of the hams is, sit on the EDGE of the chair.  One leg has the foot on the ground with the foot under the knee, as most of of sit anyway.  The other leg is out straight resting on the heel.  Close to a 45 degree angle between the ground and the leg.  Stay slouched and lift up that straightened leg.   Now sit up straight so that you are sitting on your sitz bones and the body is erect.  Now lift up your leg and you’ll see that it’s harder to lift up the leg because the lifting muscle illiopsoas has to now work against your hamstring which has been stretched by you sitting up straight. So work on the hamstrings and loosen them by massage with the tennis balls and them gradually go to the baseballs. Also practice sitting up a quarter of an inch straighter during your day.  Remind yourself to do it ten times a day and know that it will only last 20 to 30 seconds each time.  This way you’re not straining the hams or the psoas and gradually you’ll elongate those muscles.  But they’re much easier to elongate if you’re doing the rolling with the tennis and/or baseballs when you’re sitting at your desk at your computer.  Sit in a chair which has no back and no arms, so that you are practicing the erect posture of a good runner.  Gradually as you stretch the hams, and psoas by good posture, it will effect your running so that the tone of the quads, hams and gluts will be such that their range of motion doesn’t restrict the range of motion of the agonist muscle group(s). Let us know how you continue to progress. Ozzie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My problem is that after about

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Response:

Hello Group. I’ve started running just recently and have done 3-4 training sessions (90sec walk / 30 sec run / 9 reps). My weight is 104 kg / age 34 / have moderare overpronation / running in good cusioned asics 2090. Never had any probs with my knees but wasnt into any activity for several years ( Recently I’ve noticed that my knees are painfull. Its bearable when I walk but much more painfull when I run ( Should I stop training ( I do every 2 days ) OR just stop running but continue walking to get my joints working? Thanks in advance. Happy running )

Response:

"[dvg]" <dvg_at_dsl.pipex.com wrote I’ve started running just recently and have done 3-4 training sessions (90sec walk / 30 sec run / 9 reps). My weight is 104 kg / age 34 / have moderare overpronation / running in good cusioned asics 2090. Never had any probs with my knees but wasnt into any activity for several years ( Recently I’ve noticed that my knees are painfull. Its bearable when I walk but much more painfull when I run (

1.  Stop running.  Never run with hurting knees.  On the rare occasions i’ve had knee problems, I’ve either slowed it waaaay down, or stopped and walked. 2.  See a sports podiatriast.  Often knee pain is caused by uncontrolled motion of the foot, which causes the lower leg to twist, which throws the knee out of it’s natural position. Could be that good, strong orthotics can solve the problem. 3.  I don’t know how tall you are, but if you are 1.78 m or so, you’re weight is putting way too much stress on your joints.  Continue the run/jog thing (provided your knee problem is solved), and if you keep it up and can increase the length of time your weight will come down.  Resist the urge to pig out after your workouts! If you can lose 15 – 20 kgs, everything will get easier. I’m a small-framed guy, but the difference between 70kg and 65kg is Huge. — Dan

Response: