Run Run Away

Question:

Drum Roll Please….. And label in the shoe says: M2000GR  12 D Made in USA Jay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-No-Archive: yes I called New Balance Corporate again, this time indicating that Road Runner said it was "USA-Made" and the person looked (maybe further at new information) and found it WAS "Made in USA". (Yes, I just bought some ($180), I hope they work well for me, I’ll  contrast them with my Nike Shox) When they arrive, could look at the label inside the shoe and tell us if it does say "made in the usa" ?

Response:

Ooo! Ooo! Even the outside of the tongue says "Made in USA" and the back of the shoe says "USA". Jay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Drum Roll Please….. And label in the shoe says: M2000GR  12 D Made in USA Jay X-No-Archive: yes I called New Balance Corporate again, this time indicating that Road Runner said it was "USA-Made" and the person looked (maybe further at new information) and found it WAS "Made in USA". (Yes, I just bought some ($180), I hope they work well for me, I’ll  contrast them with my Nike Shox) When they arrive, could look at the label inside the shoe and tell us if it does say "made in the usa" ?

Response:

The rub is that despite our basic humanitarian stance, neither the government nor businesses are in any hurry to push for such standards. Businesses are in no hurry because it will drive up costs.  

Not drive up costs–cut back on their profits. I don’t mind corporations making a buck, I mind it when they are cruel doing it. AG

Response:

I called New Balance Corporate again, this time indicating that Road Runner said it was "USA-Made" and the person looked (maybe further at new information) and found it WAS "Made in USA". To quote Gilda Radner: "Never Mind". (Yes, I just bought some ($180), I hope they work well for me, I’ll  contrast them with my Nike Shox) Jay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] … I think many companies are understanding why people are angry at their business practices (i.e. sweatshops) and have the power to change the conditions. I think the US being a very economically powerful country can instigate change. (and I am not even American!) Actually, I do think it is good that the whistle was blown.  The problem is that when there are more workers than jobs, minimum employment standards have to be set by governments to prevent business enterprises from becoming exploitative.  I’m hoping that businessmen are people too and don’t want to exploit workers, but the economics will force them into a sweatshop position if their competition is allowed to do it. The rub is that despite our basic humanitarian stance, neither the government nor businesses are in any hurry to push for such standards. Businesses are in no hurry because it will drive up costs.  The US government is in no hurry because it will adversely affect our balance of trade, and besides, these are sovereign countries and so there is a limit to what it can do.  It would take a swell of public opinion to make the US government take anything but token action.  This is the final rub, because the target market for many of Nike, Adidas, New Balance, etc. products is too young to understand (in the case of teenagers) or too kooky to be taken seriously (in the case of runners). And with the present administration, forget it.

Response:

 [big snip] the target market for many of Nike, Adidas, New Balance, etc.

Are there places where New Balance is marketed to the public writ large? In in Canada and I’ve never seen an NB ad anywhere but in running magazines, and of course NB shoes in stores. Here, Nike is by far the most obvious, with Adidas way behind. When I was in high school (14 years ago), Reebok was promoting heavily its "Energy Return System". Then there’s Asics, Saucony, Puma, etc. that you wouldn’t know about if you weren’t in the sports world (or a runner). How’s the situation elsewhere? Daniel products is too young to understand (in the case of teenagers) or too kooky to be taken seriously (in the case of runners). And with the present administration, forget it.

– Daniel Pierre-Antoine Dept. of Political Science Carleton University 1125 Colonel By Drive Ottawa, ON  K1L 5B6

Response:

[snip] … I think many companies are understanding why people are angry at their business practices (i.e. sweatshops) and have the power to change the conditions. I think the US being a very economically powerful country can instigate change. (and I am not even American!)

Actually, I do think it is good that the whistle was blown.  The problem is that when there are more workers than jobs, minimum employment standards have to be set by governments to prevent business enterprises from becoming exploitative.  I’m hoping that businessmen are people too and don’t want to exploit workers, but the economics will force them into a sweatshop position if their competition is allowed to do it. The rub is that despite our basic humanitarian stance, neither the government nor businesses are in any hurry to push for such standards. Businesses are in no hurry because it will drive up costs.  The US government is in no hurry because it will adversely affect our balance of trade, and besides, these are sovereign countries and so there is a limit to what it can do.  It would take a swell of public opinion to make the US government take anything but token action.  This is the final rub, because the target market for many of Nike, Adidas, New Balance, etc. products is too young to understand (in the case of teenagers) or too kooky to be taken seriously (in the case of runners). And with the present administration, forget it.

Response:

Well said.

Response:

Yup- well said.. You make some good points. I think it is very important to know both sides of the issues (before making any judgements), and that there are some very uninformed activists who protest just because it is ‘cool’ or the ‘thing to do at that moment’. I am not a protester What shoes do you wear, Jenn?  Where were they produced?

Saucony- made in USA from parts assembled in other places.. I don’t have a particular brand loyalty- I just buy stability shoes that fit me. Not much choice- I don’t really want to pay $200 for runners. Some comments on your points, which, by the way, I do think have some validity: C)  There are many things in the world I have a problem with, economic exploitation being one of them.  I like starvation even less, which, by the way, I have witnessed.  In this regard, $4.79 per day is infinitely better than $0.00 per day, which is what they’d be making if the shoes were produced in the US.  If the workers had better opportunities available, they wouldn’t be working in sweatshops.  The problem runs much deeper than Nike, Adidas, and New Balance.  Until labor laws are put in place by the countries in which the shoes and apparel are produced, simple economics will force all manufacturers to adopt similar practices.

RIGHT!! D)  For most of my single life, my single income enabled me to do no better than share a rental with others.  Even now, most American families need to have both parents working.  As it is in _____ (you name the country: Mexico, China, Indonesia,…), so it is here.

Oh yes- there are many problems at home as well. Try living on a 24 hour/week minimum wage salary (working full time at Walmart). I can relate to you on the 1st satement- I worked retail after graduating from university. Couldn’t even afford to change my mind.. E)  Every developed country whose economic history I know anything about has gone through a similar phase.  In the US, slavery was legal until 1863, and child labor was an accepted practice well into the 20th century. Union-busting common, violent, and had the support of the authorities.  In England and France, the sweatshops were notorious.  I’m hoping that what we’re seeing here is a transitional phase, but if our own history is any indication, it can be a long and bitter struggle, and one that must be fuelled from within.

This is a point that was brought up in another discussion- developping countries are just that- developping. I hope also that this is just a transistion. I think many companies are understanding why people are angry at their business practices (i.e. sweatshops) and have the power to change the conditions. I think the US being a very economically powerful country can instigate change. (and I am not even American!) F)  I have no idea what the profit on a pair of shoes is.  I imagine it’s in the same ball park percentage-wise as the "profit" on a gallon of milk from an American farmer’s point of view.  I do know that profit on sports equipment and apparel is what supports elite athletes, though.  No profit, no Gebrselassie.  I’m hoping that he spreads some of his prize money around to his family and countrymen.

Good point! Anyway- good debating with you! Jenn

Response:

Jennifer – "Buy American Made" only if you’re stupid because it has nothing to do with patriotism or quality

It does have to do with working conditions and pay. I try to avoid buying products produced under sweatshop conditions; in the garment industry my impression is that that’s nearly impossible, but I do what I can. Blanket statements rarely apply across product categories. Foreign-made cars might be cheap junk (remember the Yugo?) or of higher quality than domestic models (Toyota). I suspect that most cars made in Japan or Europe are made by well-paid workers in good factory conditions. I’d have no problem buying China-made shoes if they were put together by well-paid workers. Somehow I suspect they are not. But that’s just me. YMMV. — Brian P. Baresch Lawrence, Kansas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

Response:

agree. plus, doesn’t everyone else need to eat also?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well also, Made in USA may also mean ‘made in US protectorates using the same cheap sweatshop labour as they use in China’ My Saucony shoes are assembled in the USA with imported components. Yuk.. Why oh Why can’t anyone make runners in North America?? I try to buy locally made goods (Canada, US, Europe) but running shoes are impossible. It irks me, but I want to run, and I want good shoes. Why, oh Why does a shoe have to be made in the USA?  American labor is expensive due to the high cost of living in the USA, and not particularly meticulous in a factory setting requiring extensive hand labor.  This is a formula for disaster for a shoe maker.  There is absolutely no way that a shoe of comparable quality can be produced for the same price in the USA as it can be in Asia. I’m not so sure that "Buying American" is all that great an idea anyway. We each have things that we’re good at and not so good at, and the same thing applies to countries and cultures.  It is simply more economical in some cases to buy products from countries that are better equipped to produce them.  You get a better product for a better price, and you do some small part to spread the wealth.

Response:

NB slowly moved (and continues to move) low margin, high labour manufacturing abroad while keeping only  the lower labour models in the US. Jennifer – "Buy American Made" only if you’re stupid because it has nothing to do with patriotism or quality

While I agree with the general sentiments, it is industry specific.  For example, Moonstone sleeping bags (very high-end, goosedown bags, $600-$800) were made in Northern CA. but were bought out by Espirit (about 2 years ago) and operations were moved to the Far East.  The word on the street is that quality went down as many important steps in the process were done by hand but are now done by machine.  I understand the same thing happened when Dana Backpacks moved from Montana to Mexico about three years ago.  The labor costs in the US were too high but hardcore outdoorsman complain that the new products have higher failure rates.  At some point, one would think the processes could get duplicated, but it seems they haven’t yet.  I haven’t noticed a difference at all in running shoes. David Olsen

Response:

Yes, but when the workers are being paid wages that do not allow even a minimum standard of living.. being forced to live in zoned compounds, working unpaid overtime in buildings that are firetraps at best.. Nike for example, produces nothing on thier own. Everything is subcontracted, and subcontracted again. Their profits are out of this world, and most of thier budget goes towards advertising, not producing (or buying) the finished product. How much profit do you think they make on a pair of $80 shoes? $70? Anyway- if you read the reports and the other literature, perhaps you will understand why these companies use overseas contractors, and why some people have a problem with it.. Jenn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – agree. plus, doesn’t everyone else need to eat also?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, but when the workers are being paid wages that do not allow even a minimum standard of living.. being forced to live in zoned compounds, working unpaid overtime in buildings that are firetraps at best.. Nike for example, produces nothing on thier own. Everything is subcontracted, and subcontracted again. Their profits are out of this world, and most of thier budget goes towards advertising, not producing (or buying) the finished product. How much profit do you think they make on a pair of $80 shoes? $70? Anyway- if you read the reports and the other literature, perhaps you will understand why these companies use overseas contractors, and why some people have a problem with it.. Jenn

What shoes do you wear, Jenn?  Where were they produced? Some comments on your points, which, by the way, I do think have some validity: A)  I have read the reports.  I’m not convinced. B)  I don’t believe everything I read.  Especially stuff that labels people and organizations.  It reminds me of the ’60s, where one side was "pointy-headed intellectuals" and "bleeding-heart liberals" and the other side was "pigs" and the "greedy military-industrial complex." C)  There are many things in the world I have a problem with, economic exploitation being one of them.  I like starvation even less, which, by the way, I have witnessed.  In this regard, $4.79 per day is infinitely better than $0.00 per day, which is what they’d be making if the shoes were produced in the US.  If the workers had better opportunities available, they wouldn’t be working in sweatshops.  The problem runs much deeper than Nike, Adidas, and New Balance.  Until labor laws are put in place by the countries in which the shoes and apparel are produced, simple economics will force all manufacturers to adopt similar practices. D)  For most of my single life, my single income enabled me to do no better than share a rental with others.  Even now, most American families need to have both parents working.  As it is in _____ (you name the country: Mexico, China, Indonesia,…), so it is here. E)  Every developed country whose economic history I know anything about has gone through a similar phase.  In the US, slavery was legal until 1863, and child labor was an accepted practice well into the 20th century. Union-busting common, violent, and had the support of the authorities.  In England and France, the sweatshops were notorious.  I’m hoping that what we’re seeing here is a transitional phase, but if our own history is any indication, it can be a long and bitter struggle, and one that must be fuelled from within. F)  I have no idea what the profit on a pair of shoes is.  I imagine it’s in the same ball park percentage-wise as the "profit" on a gallon of milk from an American farmer’s point of view.  I do know that profit on sports equipment and apparel is what supports elite athletes, though.  No profit, no Gebrselassie.  I’m hoping that he spreads some of his prize money around to his family and countrymen.

Response:

Well also, Made in USA may also mean ‘made in US protectorates using the same cheap sweatshop labour as they use in China’ My Saucony shoes are assembled in the USA with imported components. Yuk.. Why oh Why can’t anyone make runners in North America?? I try to buy locally made goods (Canada, US, Europe) but running shoes are impossible. It irks me, but I want to run, and I want good shoes.

Why, oh Why does a shoe have to be made in the USA?  American labor is expensive due to the high cost of living in the USA, and not particularly meticulous in a factory setting requiring extensive hand labor.  This is a formula for disaster for a shoe maker.  There is absolutely no way that a shoe of comparable quality can be produced for the same price in the USA as it can be in Asia. I’m not so sure that "Buying American" is all that great an idea anyway.  We each have things that we’re good at and not so good at, and the same thing applies to countries and cultures.  It is simply more economical in some cases to buy products from countries that are better equipped to produce them.  You get a better product for a better price, and you do some small part to spread the wealth.

Response:

Here I am ready to try another running shoe other than those from the evil Nike (which, by the way, work great for me (Air Max’s). So I heard some New Balance shoes are "Made in USA". I am willing to pay extra for a shoe made in the USA instead of China where they have lately been executing people  at a clip even at rate (per citizen) higher than Texas!  So you would think they could produce a flipping $200 shoe in the USA!! Is their management on crack? Jay

Response:

So I heard some New Balance shoes are "Made in USA".

You heard correctly. Many are.  So you would think they could produce a flipping $200 shoe in the USA!!

They do. The Riviera. Their "top-of-the-line" shoe. Do they have any $200 running shoes NOT made in the USA?

Response:

So I heard some New Balance shoes are "Made in USA". You heard correctly. Many are.  So you would think they could produce a flipping $200 shoe in the USA!! They do. The Riviera. Their "top-of-the-line" shoe. Do they have any $200 running shoes NOT made in the USA?

I had just called them I asked them if the M2000 (Riviera) was "Made in the USA" and they said nope!!!! Okay the lady at New Balance may have been clueless. Whats the real deal??? (1) Foreign Made (2) US Made with Foreign Components (3) "Made in USA". Jay

Response:

I had just called them I asked them if the M2000 (Riviera) was "Made in the USA" and they said nope!!!! Okay the lady at New Balance may have been clueless. Whats the real deal??? (1) Foreign Made (2) US Made with Foreign Components (3) "Made in USA".

from Road Runner Sports: Men’s New Balance