Run Run Away

Question:

Here’s what I observe: –My legs are slightly bowed. –I seem to run on the outside of my feet, like the heel strikes on the outside, then I follow through with the outside of the middle of my foot and little toe –My feet are not at all splayed in running or walking, and they are not flat –I have a sharp pain on the outside of one foot, and also on the same side in my knee and pelvis/hip I don’t know if this all amounts to being a supinator, under pronator, or what (there seems to be some disagreement with the interaction of the kind of thing I describe, but Bob S.’s post seems to have disappeared on me), but I hope the doc can help me figure it out!!

First, I’m a bit out of my depth here, and Bob certainly seems to be considerably more familiar with this topic than I am. The above sounds like underpronation to me — your feet touch down on the outer heel (normal), but then they don’t roll inward, so instead of absorbing the impact on the middle of the ball of the foot (most people touch in the middle of the ball, then to their big toe), you put a lot of stress on the outside of your forefoot, hence the foot pain (and problems further up) I agree that this needs to be looked at closely by someone who knows what they’re doing, and may require treatment (for example, Bob recommended orthotics). I’d recommend going to see a podiatrist if you haven’t already. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Seems logical for someone with splayed feet. Supinators are very rare. There are very few (maybe none ?) true "supinators".  If your feet go straight ahead, I doubt you’re a supinator (almost impossible unless you’re pigeon-toed — opposite of splayed feet)

Huh? Donovan, supinating has nothing to do with being "pigeon-toed"! cheers, — David (in Hamilton ON) www.absolutelyaccurate.com www.allfalldown.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have splayed feet ? Cheers, Splayed? No, not at all they go straight ahead. What effect would splayed feet have? They cause the outside of your shoes to wear. Another thing is that my legs are kind of bowed, which seems logical for a supinator, right? Seems logical for someone with splayed feet. Supinators are very rare. There are very few (maybe none ?) true "supinators".  If your feet go straight ahead, I doubt you’re a supinator (almost impossible unless you’re pigeon-toed — opposite of splayed feet) Cheers,

Here’s what I observe: –My legs are slightly bowed. –I seem to run on the outside of my feet, like the heel strikes on the outside, then I follow through with the outside of the middle of my foot and little toe –My feet are not at all splayed in running or walking, and they are not flat –I have a sharp pain on the outside of one foot, and also on the same side in my knee and pelvis/hip I don’t know if this all amounts to being a supinator, under pronator, or what (there seems to be some disagreement with the interaction of the kind of thing I describe, but Bob S.’s post seems to have disappeared on me), but I hope the doc can help me figure it out!!

Response:

You may be well served to seek professional help to increase midtarsal mobility and improve the load distribution profile in your feet, especially given your dimensions and requirements. A manual therapist can be of service to this end. Additionally, a running coach schooled in training efficiency of movement may also be valuable. Ozzie may be of help in tracking down these poeple. Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When the dude set my shoes up on the counter, they definitely seemed to lean out. They damn sure weren’t neutral and didn’t lean in. My feet are a little splayed, but they’re not like a ballerina at first position or whatever they call it. I do have high, rigid arches. On the bulkier, squishier shoe deal…I forgot to mention in my previous posts that I’m 6′2" and 200 lbs., so they always love to put me in the mondo cushioning shoes which generally is fine by me. I also have a pair of Landreths that I use for short runs (under 5 miles), but the pain occurs equally with either shoe. I have only slightly splayed feet. I too, thought this was my problem in the beginning. I went to the running store today and was told by the dudes there that my shoes are fine, but I am definitely a mild supinator. I was further told the Nimbus has a curved last. I have never seen a "supinator".  You may be an "under pronator" with rigid arches, but I doubt you’re a "supinator", unless you have splayed feet. The nimbus is a cushion shoe, should be OK for you, though it’s one of the bulkier squishier shoes out there. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Seems logical for someone with splayed feet. Supinators are very rare. There are very few (maybe none ?) true "supinators".  If your feet go straight ahead, I doubt you’re a supinator (almost impossible unless you’re pigeon-toed — opposite of splayed feet)

A couple of biomechanical details need to be cleared up here. I disagree with the statement that "supinators are very rare…unless you’re pigeon-toed." Supination is a NATURAL motion of the subtalar joint, which in a closed chain environment involves calcaneal inversion, talar dorsiflexion and abduction, midfoot adduction and plantarflexion, and TIBIAL EXTERNAL ROTATION. Supinators, as a label, are people who spend more time in supination than normal during stance phase of gait, thus creating an unfavorable environment for load distribution throughout the foot. Supination is undertaken in the NORMAL biomechanics of gait during Preswing and prior to Toe Off. An "under pronator" will spend less time pronating and more time supinating during this phase. One would have to embody severe, pathological mechanics to avoid any supination time at all. For these populations, orthotic devices are not only recommended but a requisite for any weight bearing activities. It then begs the question can a person be an "under pronator" and an under supinator at the same time? The consequences of such dysfunction on weight bearing movement are disastrous in the long term, and THAT I would qualify as being a more rare trait. It appears that the initial poster of this thread does not fall into this category. Secondly, "bow-leggedness" or, technically, genu varus is accompanied by TIBIAL INTERNAL ROTATION, and "knock knees" or genu valgus is accompanied by TIBIAL EXTERNAL ROTATION. Given the previous description of supination being a complex motion incorporating tibial external rotation, it then follows on principle and in practice that genu varus is actually coupled with pronation NOT supination. It seems intuitively opposite, but that’s the way it goes.

Response:

When the dude set my shoes up on the counter, they definitely seemed to lean out. They damn sure weren’t neutral and didn’t lean in. My feet are a little splayed, but they’re not like a ballerina at first position or whatever they call it. I do have high, rigid arches. On the bulkier, squishier shoe deal…I forgot to mention in my previous posts that I’m 6′2" and 200 lbs., so they always love to put me in the mondo cushioning shoes which generally is fine by me. I also have a pair of Landreths that I use for short runs (under 5 miles), but the pain occurs equally with either shoe.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have only slightly splayed feet. I too, thought this was my problem in the beginning. I went to the running store today and was told by the dudes there that my shoes are fine, but I am definitely a mild supinator. I was further told the Nimbus has a curved last. I have never seen a "supinator".  You may be an "under pronator" with rigid arches, but I doubt you’re a "supinator", unless you have splayed feet. The nimbus is a cushion shoe, should be OK for you, though it’s one of the bulkier squishier shoes out there. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Ah, I see what you mean about our posts being similar–my pain has occurred on both sides now (at different times), so my hopes (like yours) about being crooked don’t seem right…I also feel the fact that I am running on the outside of my feet, but on both sides, and I can’t figure out how to fix it…maybe the doc will fix me up Do you have splayed feet ? Cheers, Splayed? No, not at all they go straight ahead. What effect would splayed feet have?

They cause the outside of your shoes to wear. Another thing is that my legs are kind of bowed, which seems logical for a supinator, right?

Seems logical for someone with splayed feet. Supinators are very rare. There are very few (maybe none ?) true "supinators".  If your feet go straight ahead, I doubt you’re a supinator (almost impossible unless you’re pigeon-toed — opposite of splayed feet) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I have only slightly splayed feet. I too, thought this was my problem in the beginning. I went to the running store today and was told by the dudes there that my shoes are fine, but I am definitely a mild supinator. I was further told the Nimbus has a curved last.

I have never seen a "supinator".  You may be an "under pronator" with rigid arches, but I doubt you’re a "supinator", unless you have splayed feet. The nimbus is a cushion shoe, should be OK for you, though it’s one of the bulkier squishier shoes out there. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Quite sure

That’s not what I heard…

Response:

In your particular case Bill might I recommend a chainsaw?

Actually I used to use one, it cut well, but it made jagged cuts on the torsos. Just too messy.

Response:

Splayed? No, not at all they go straight ahead. What effect would splayed feet have?

It would tell us how often you have sex, and this indicates you aren’t "gettin’ enough". Call me. Another thing is that my legs are kind of bowed,

Oh? Maybe you are gettin’ enough. Someone did make a comment about the angle that my legs made in relation to my knees (lower legs) once, but I forget what it was.

It’s called "kickin". email me and I’ll explain it.

Response:

Self-massage tools here,

LMFAO! Trust me on this, runners are experts on "self-massage" LOLOLOL

Response:

I spoke to a physio recently who recommendedsmothering the area between hip and knee (on top of the band) with sorbolene and going for it with your knuckles in a motion from top to bottom.

You sure he didn’t mean KY jelly in your arse?

Response:

You sure he didn’t mean KY jelly in your arse?

Quite sure Bill but hey, whatever you do in the privacy of your own dojo is fine by me.

Response:

Bummer! But orthotics aren’t the answer, getting the legs to equal length is. A chiro can do that in most cases.

In your particular case Bill might I recommend a chainsaw?

Response:

Ah, I see what you mean about our posts being similar–my pain has occurred on both sides now (at different times), so my hopes (like yours) about being crooked don’t seem right…I also feel the fact that I am running on the outside of my feet, but on both sides, and I can’t figure out how to fix it…maybe the doc will fix me up Do you have splayed feet ? Cheers,

Splayed? No, not at all they go straight ahead. What effect would splayed feet have? Another thing is that my legs are kind of bowed, which seems logical for a supinator, right? Someone did make a comment about the angle that my legs made in relation to my knees (lower legs) once, but I forget what it was. Mandy

Response:

I have only slightly splayed feet. I too, thought this was my problem in the beginning. I went to the running store today and was told by the dudes there that my shoes are fine, but I am definitely a mild supinator. I was further told the Nimbus has a curved last.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, I see what you mean about our posts being similar–my pain has occurred on both sides now (at different times), so my hopes (like yours) about being crooked don’t seem right…I also feel the fact that I am running on the outside of my feet, but on both sides, and I can’t figure out how to fix it…maybe the doc will fix me up Do you have splayed feet ? Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I have no problem *stopping* stretching, thanks for the tip…:)

Some say stretching saves them, some like myself it just causes injurys. So whichever works for you, but it seems obvious you are doing WAY too much stretching. Personally, I was kinda hoping it was because orthotics would have solved everything, no? But it ain’t that.

Bummer! But orthotics aren’t the answer, getting the legs to equal length is. A chiro can do that in most cases. By the by, my doctor has a Chiro in his office that I’m going to see, but in the meantime, who makes a curved last shoe?

I imagine they all do, except of course for nikes, which suck.

Response:

Ah, I see what you mean about our posts being similar–my pain has occurred on both sides now (at different times), so my hopes (like yours) about being crooked don’t seem right…I also feel the fact that I am running on the outside of my feet, but on both sides, and I can’t figure out how to fix it…maybe the doc will fix me up

Do you have splayed feet ? Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started running again about 3 months ago after a very long hiatus (10+ years). Everytime I go to buy running shoes, the salesperson almost always assumes that I am some type of overpronator until they see me walk, when they always come back to admitting I am a neutral runner with high arches. Most recently, I have been running in the Asics Nimbus VI for longer runs and the Asics Landreth for shorter runs. I clearly have some touch of ITBS. Stretching generally improves it a great deal (before, during and after runs) but after running a 10-miler on Saturday, I am convinced that I supinate on my right foot which is the knee where the ITBS occurs. I don’t really know how to explain it, but I can *feel* my foot rolling outward and the related stress on the knee. In fact, when I *try* to "pull" the knee in, it actually feels better…I just can’t run for miles like that. So I’m beginning to think my problem is, in part, my shoes. I’ve seen a Sports Medicine doctor and he has told me I am not doing any structural damage. My ITBS is not horrible, but it is there. The key to managing it, I have found is a) stetching beforehand, b) not stopping during a run and/or c)stretching it in lieu of stopping. Still, the pain remains. (Strangely, it seems to be really bad past 3 miles, then dissipates to a degree after 5 miles.) But back to the shoes. So let’s say I really am a mild supinator. I did a search of what kinds of shoes to look at, and I didn’t find a lot of specific information as far as models to look for. But I did find a couple of resources that said I should look for a highly cushioned shoe with a curved last and a single-density or very soft midsole and the heel counter should be very soft (according to Cool Running, "essetially useless"). Does such a shoe exist? TIA for any help.

Ah, I see what you mean about our posts being similar–my pain has occurred on both sides now (at different times), so my hopes (like yours) about being crooked don’t seem right…I also feel the fact that I am running on the outside of my feet, but on both sides, and I can’t figure out how to fix it…maybe the doc will fix me up

Response:

Self-massage tools here, including ITB http://www.tpmassageball.com/ They overstate the mechanism by which direct pressure relieves myofascial tension, saying that it pushes oxygen into the muscle, however, there is phenomenological evidence that ischemic compression over trigger points provides a neuroinhibitory stimulus/response. You may also want to check out: http://www.yamunabodyrolling.com/ Same principles, better package.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I clearly have some touch of ITBS. Stretching generally improves it a great deal (before, during and after runs) but after running a 10-miler on Saturday, I am convinced that I supinate on my right foot which is the knee where the ITBS occurs. I don’t really know how to explain it, but I can *feel* my foot rolling outward and the related stress on the knee. In fact, when I *try* to "pull" the knee in, it actually feels better…I just can’t run for miles like that. I spoke to a physio recently who recommendedsmothering the area between hip and knee (on top of the band) with sorbolene and going for it with your knuckles in a motion from top to bottom. Haven’t tried it ’cause I don’t have ITBS, just thought it might be worth a shot. Cheers, Brad

Response:

I clearly have some touch of ITBS. Stretching generally improves it a great deal (before, during and after runs) but after running a 10-miler on Saturday, I am convinced that I supinate on my right foot which is the knee where the ITBS occurs. I don’t really know how to explain it, but I can *feel* my foot rolling outward and the related stress on the knee. In fact, when I *try* to "pull" the knee in, it actually feels better…I just can’t run for miles like that.

I spoke to a physio recently who recommendedsmothering the area between hip and knee (on top of the band) with sorbolene and going for it with your knuckles in a motion from top to bottom. Haven’t tried it ’cause I don’t have ITBS, just thought it might be worth a shot. Cheers, Brad

Response:

I have no problem *stopping* stretching, thanks for the tip…:) I too, thought I had one leg longer than the other, but the Doc who checked me out measured and such is not the case. Personally, I was kinda hoping it was because orthotics would have solved everything, no? But it ain’t that. By the by, my doctor has a Chiro in his office that I’m going to see, but in the meantime, who makes a curved last shoe?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I clearly have some touch of ITBS. Stretching generally improves it a great deal (before, during and after runs) Cut the before, you are over stretching. but after running a 10-miler on Saturday, I am convinced that I supinate on my right foot which is the knee where the ITBS occurs. I don’t really know how to explain it, but I can *feel* my foot rolling outward and the related stress on the knee. One leg is longer than the other. Go to a chiro. a) stetching beforehand, OBVIOUSLY THIS IS NOT WORKING! STOP IT.

Response:

I clearly have some touch of ITBS. Stretching generally improves it a great deal (before, during and after runs)

Cut the before, you are over stretching. but after running a 10-miler on Saturday, I am convinced that I supinate on my right foot which is the knee where the ITBS occurs. I don’t really know how to explain it, but I can *feel* my foot rolling outward and the related stress on the knee.

One leg is longer than the other. Go to a chiro. a) stetching beforehand,

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS NOT WORKING! STOP IT.

Response:

I started running again about 3 months ago after a very long hiatus (10+ years). Everytime I go to buy running shoes, the salesperson almost always assumes that I am some type of overpronator until they see me walk, when they always come back to admitting I am a neutral runner with high arches. Most recently, I have been running in the Asics Nimbus VI for longer runs and the Asics Landreth for shorter runs. I clearly have some touch of ITBS. Stretching generally improves it a great deal (before, during and after runs) but after running a 10-miler on Saturday, I am convinced that I supinate on my right foot which is the knee where the ITBS occurs. I don’t really know how to explain it, but I can *feel* my foot rolling outward and the related stress on the knee. In fact, when I *try* to "pull" the knee in, it actually feels better…I just can’t run for miles like that. So I’m beginning to think my problem is, in part, my shoes. I’ve seen a Sports Medicine doctor and he has told me I am not doing any structural damage. My ITBS is not horrible, but it is there. The key to managing it, I have found is a) stetching beforehand, b) not stopping during a run and/or c)stretching it in lieu of stopping. Still, the pain remains. (Strangely, it seems to be really bad past 3 miles, then dissipates to a degree after 5 miles.) But back to the shoes. So let’s say I really am a mild supinator. I did a search of what kinds of shoes to look at, and I didn’t find a lot of specific information as far as models to look for. But I did find a couple of resources that said I should look for a highly cushioned shoe with a curved last and a single-density or very soft midsole and the heel counter should be very soft (according to Cool Running, "essetially useless"). Does such a shoe exist? TIA for any help.

Response: