Run Run Away

Question:

Nike announced Thursday that its fiscal 2004 first-quarter profits ran past analysts’ forecasts as the athletic shoe giant scored big overseas and showed signs of reversing a skid in U.S. sneaker sales.  <snip The average price paid for Nike sneakers has begun to rise after about a year and a half of declines, <snip Swift sales of Nike’s Shox and Air Zoom Spiridon running shoes, both priced at $100 or more, helped fuel the increase, Blair said… _______ OK, the Shox are inexcusable & have no place on this ng.   Their flats were always legit, but I am sensing Nike has a winner for the real runner with this Spiridon.  At my races I am starting to see this shoe popping up on the feet of serious runners and they seem to rave over it.   I’m not strong enough or talented enough to ball/toe & midsole strike over 10K and I inevitably migrate to heel striking for a good portion of LD races and thus generally wear a 12 oz stability shoe (for over 10Ks).   Unlike a lightweight trainer which really is for midsole striking…. this Spiridon is made for heel strikers yet offers the forefront flexibility like a flat.  I think it’s the only under 10 .oz shoe (Sz 9-10) designed for heel strikers…it’s really in a class of it’s own w/it’s weight, design, and materials.   Anyone out there using the shoe?  I’ve never bought a current model shoe as I generally refuse to pay retail….(I buy last year’s at half price today)….however I am curious about this shoe.   Can we get past the Nike bashing and consider the shoe free of ant-Nike sentiment?  It’s an intriguing shoe in my opinion and I am seeing spreading acceptance of it from serious runners.  Anyone else seeing this at their races?   I think Nike might have a winner here… C’mon…most be some running folks out there in this ng w/the shoe?

Response:

No, you need to be smart enough to read to be on here, that disqualifies most nike runners (except for a few webtv users…)

Please… This Nikehate thing just too intense ont his ng. Ok, Nikes are overprized, overcommercialized, overhyped and understabilized. Ok, agreed. But so many posters treat Nikes as a shoeversion of The Black Plague, and that is just ridiculous. If you have the right foot, and a few extra dollars in your pocket, Nikes can be allright.

Response:

I agree, but WHY buy them when there are so very many far superior shoes for much less money? ___ I’ll answer that.  Because the Spiridon is the only under 10 oz. shoe designed for heel strikers, plus it’s every bit as flexible in the forefront to allow ball/toe striking as Gel Racer V flats.  It’s like a "hybrid" between a flat and stability shoe, leaping over/arching lightweight trainer class shoes.  It’s the only shoe made like this.  That’s the answer to your question. The next option (on a technical level) away from a shoe like a Spiridon is the stability class of shoes which means a 12 oz shoe. Look, I just started this thread because the gaining adoption of this specific shoe w/real runners has caught my attention and was curious if other frequent racers were seeing the same thing.   I’m not going to dismiss the technical or engineering merits of the shoe and perhaps the void is fills due to the image of the company.   Put any of these shoe companies under a microscope and we’d all be running barefoot. Andrew…

Response:

I agree, but WHY buy them when there are so very many far superior shoes for much less money? ___ I’ll answer that.  Because the Spiridon is the only under 10 oz. shoe designed for heel strikers, plus it’s every bit as flexible in the forefront to allow ball/toe striking as Gel Racer V flats.  It’s like a "hybrid" between a flat and stability shoe, leaping over/arching lightweight trainer class shoes.  It’s the only shoe made like this.  That’s the answer to your question.

Andrew, Bill has such blind hatred concerning Nike that he has no mental capacity to listen to facts.  He will continue to piss into the front of the fan and wonder why he gets wet. Some people hate all blacks, others all Muslims, etc. etc. I think Willie should voice his concerns directly to Nike and request they let him be a wear tester. — Doug Freese

Response:

This is not true. I dislike nikes because they are overpriced garbage, that cause more injuries than any other shoe on the market. Wassa matter for you Doug, you got sand in your KY jelly last night? Check his facts. Nike is the THIRD shoe on the market that meets the criteria he says only nike has.  They weren’t even first to copy it, nevermind invent it.

My experience with high-end Nike’s also has only been bad, including painful knee and ankle problems.  I think they are just too light and cushy.  I solved the problem by initially trying out $40 Asics gel.  I moved on to high-end Asics, but I could hardly tell the difference from the cheaper model. I also heard NB’s are very good, but I felt my running style needed some extra absorption like the Asics’ gel sole. What might also be telling is that the Army makes recruits purchase Asics or NB’s for boot camp.

Response:

The myth-man proports: This is not true. I dislike nikes because they are overpriced garbage, that cause more injuries than any other shoe on the market.

You can say this as many times as you want, and as loudly as you feel necessary, but you have shown NO proof. Your anecdotal experience does not extrapolate across the running population. If you spent a few minutes in thought you might discover it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to contrive a study that could conclude that the shoe alone was the source of an injury.  By the way, I thoroughly dislike Nike but for not shoe injury reasons. — Doug Freese

Response:

___ Whoever you are….I ask the open and at large question, name the under 10 oz. shoe designed for heel strikers?   That’s the question you avoid and do not directly respond to.  Again, name the shoe, the model.  The light weight trainer class of shoe is designed for a midsole striker, not a heel striker. Have you handled a pair of Spiridons?   Again the shoe feels as flexible as Ascics Gel Racer V shoes.   Yet provides/accomodates the needs/interest of heel striking while running. The issue of the thread is not Nike in general (though all of us over 35 grew up on Pegs), the issue is singularly the merits or lack there of……of this specific shoe, the Spiridon.     I think it’s stupid, flat out dumb for you to dismiss consideration of the potential merits of this shoe based on the image of the company.   There is simply not another shoe like it.   If I am wrong, name the shoe.   You can slam the company, you speak around the issue, but you cannot name the under 10 oz. shoe designed for heel strikers that’s as flexible as a flat.   The shoe very much seems like a hybrid Flat-Stability Shoe, leaping/arching over lightweight trainers.    There’s no other shoe w/similar engineering/technical design/materials.  If I’m wrong name the shoe. Andrew….

Response:

The myth man opines: Look you fat-assed chimpanzee, I do not have to prove jak to you, or anyone else. My advice is based on sound experiences, if you don’t like it TS!  

Well my precious querulous sycophant, you are using merely parading emotional claptrap as the bible. In this case you have offered nothing, zip, nil, to back your position. Then we both dislike them but for different reasons, so why razz me?

Come on Willie, can’t you see the forest for the trees? If you can’t separate quality from moral issues then you must live in a very black and white world. Let’s see, you’re also a conservative Republican that drinks Bud! Your turn? (yes, i know all about it)

Nah, you’re way to immature to continue this discussion. Stick to running where you are at least correct 50% of the time. Pass the banana please! — Doug Freese

Response:

The myth man opines: Come on Willie, can’t you see the forest for the trees? If you can’t separate quality from moral issues then you must live in a very black and white world. Let’s see, you’re also a conservative Republican that drinks Bud!

Could be worse.  He could be a liberal Democrat that cashes his welfare check to buy lottery tickets and Coors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your turn? (yes, i know all about it) Nah, you’re way to immature to continue this discussion. Stick to running where you are at least correct 50% of the time. Pass the banana please! — Doug Freese

Response:

The myth man opines:

Doug, Why don’t you shut the hell up? Nobody wants to hear from your fat ass. Donovan Rebbichi

Response:

 DANIEL McCABE | Steve Robbins is the researcher Nike loves to hate. The feeling is pretty much mutual. Robbins, an adjunct professor in the McGill Centre for Studies in Aging, has published studies indicating that high-priced running shoes account for 123 per cent more foot injuries than cheaper sneakers.

  123% wow, impressive number. I guess these shoes must behave like the bubonic plague, if I walk into a room of high priced running shoes my feet will start to hurt from the closeness? also aims to persuade the elderly, who enjoy the comfort of sneakers, that running shoes aren’t the best choice of footwear for them.

This in not a study but an opinion paper. There are a set of people and Robins is only one, that feel all running shoes with cushions, high heels, etc. are harmful and/or not necessary. The fact that Robins was a Nike shill at one time only begs the issue. This guy is against all shoes, not just Nike. He has probably taken some cheap shots at his old boss. You get this type of disagreement in every branch of science. Hell, we have a shit load of people buying those pills that make your dick inches bigger and those that believe the earth is flat. A recent paper by Robbins, published in The Journal of the American Geriatric Society, looked at the question of seniors and sneakers. Older people, who often have to contend with arthritic feet, appreciate shoes with thick, soft soles made of highly compressible materials. That’s why sneakers feel comfy on older feet. What the elderly don’t realize, says Robbins, is that running shoes also render them far more unsteady on their feet.

Show me the study and how he came to this conclusion and the Metric used. Hmm, elderly with weak pieces and parts extrapolates to everyone?  And some drugs work in animals and therefore fine for people. "For example, a running shoe impairs measures of stability by approximately 200 to 300 per cent as compared to a hard leather shoe.

Measured how??? "Some of them may even be worried from a legal perspective. Some of [the shoes] impair balance to such a degree they might be concerned about liability."

LOL. Bite that Freese!

You have merely cited an opinion paper – where’s the beef? There are people, even on r.r that believe a minimal shoe is best. For those that can get by with with less is just fine but to generalize is smoky BS. At this time I’m not buying Robin’s and there ilk that there is a conspiracy by all the shoe companies to do harm to the running population. Robin’s et al. are claiming the shoe companies are like the tobacco industry and know shoes are too something-or-other and they are covering it up. How do we justify all the folks that run every day in these evil incarnates, that have no problems? Please something better than this National Enquirier prose. — Doug Freese

Response:

I agree, but WHY buy them when there are so very many far superior shoes for much less money? ___ I’ll answer that.  Because the Spiridon is the only under 10 oz. shoe designed for heel strikers, plus it’s every bit as flexible in the forefront to allow ball/toe striking as Gel Racer V flats.  It’s like a "hybrid" between a flat and stability shoe, leaping over/arching lightweight trainer class shoes.  It’s

At the risk of asking a serious question in the middle of a poop-tossing contest, why do you feel that the Spiridon is better than something like the Asics Gel Verdict DS?  It’s a lightweight (10oz – upper end of your range) trainer that works really well as a clydesdale’s racing shoe for me. I train in gel cumulus III and Vs, but have no problems racing 5ks in the verdict DS.  To this point, I’ve stuck with the cumulus for longer races, but I think I’d be pretty happy using the verdict in a 10k.  I heel strike a bit more in longer races, but I’ve still got some decent heel impact in a 5k.   -Dave (bounce bounce, new 5k pr today) — work: dga – at – lcs.mit.edu                   me:  angio – at – pobox.com       MIT Laboratory for Computer Science           http://www.angio.net/       (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed…)       bulk emailers:  I do not accept unsolicited email.  Do not mail me.

Response:

Well Fred, here’s where I cum clean and apologize to the ol’ thebillrodgers for being such a dickhead. I just found out I had half a banana still wedged up my ass, but my BF Donovan was able to pull it out with his tongue for me, and now I’m fine. I owe thebillrodgers a huge apology for harassing him when I knew he was right all along. It was just good fun while my Donny was away for the weekend on a business trip to Provincetown, Mass. I love you Bill, you are my idol, my hero, and the very reason I run. Your pal, Doug Freese – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The myth man opines: Come on Willie, can’t you see the forest for the trees? If you can’t separate quality from moral issues then you must live in a very black and white world. Let’s see, you’re also a conservative Republican that drinks Bud! Could be worse.  He could be a liberal Democrat that cashes his welfare check to buy lottery tickets and Coors. Your turn? (yes, i know all about it) Nah, you’re way to immature to continue this discussion. Stick to running where you are at least correct 50% of the time. Pass the banana please! — Doug Freese

Response:

Well Fred, here’s where I cum clean and apologize to the ol’ thebillrodgers for being such a dickhead. I just found out I had half a banana still wedged up my ass, but my BF Donovan was able to pull it out with his tongue for me, and now I’m fine. I owe thebillrodgers a huge apology for harassing him when I knew he was right all along. It was just good fun while my Donny was away for the weekend on a business trip to Provincetown, Mass. I love you Bill, you are my idol, my hero, and the very reason I run. Your pal, Doug Freese

Sorry, the real Doug Freese knows my name and doesn’t use hotmail.

Response:

Sorry, the real Doug Freese knows my name and doesn’t use hotmail.

At times his smashmouth cockalorum, sans ratiocination, makes me laugh at him. A popinjay comes to mind. — Doug Freese

Response:

What the heck did he say? Translation anbyone?

You’re full of shit! akes me laugh at him. Then I did my job.

That you did. A little like Andrew Dice Clay – funny for a second or two but got old real fast. A popinjay comes to mind. Some kind of homo-eroticism?

Almost. — Doug Freese

Response:

Don’t give the dummy hints, let him do his own web research. I lost 1.5 hours outta my life to prove him wrong, so he should too. Anybody dumb enough to believe the junk he is spewing about nike deserves to spend some time getting better educated. He’s trying to defend a whole company with a long history of producing garbage shoes at inflated prices, based on one shoe that’s designed to cater to 5,000 people in the whole USA. Laughable really.

Eh, whatever.  I’m moderately company agnostic – if Nike started producing good shoes at reasonable prices, I’d consider them.  I figure after the media bloodbath they had, their 3rd world work practices are about as (good,bad) as most other shoe companies, so there’s no reason to turn a blind eye _if_ they’re actually making a good product.  I’m not impressed with their products in general, but – as one example – the SDM watch + pod is a pretty cool toy. I’ll let someone else do the research and the $100 to figure out if Nike’s shoes are any good, though. On the other hand, my racing will probably always benefit more and more cheaply from a 10oz less ice cream than from 2oz less shoe. Maybe once I start dipping down under 5 minute miles I’ll appreciate shoe weight a bit more.  At 0.5oz lighter than my DS Verdicts (and $30 more), there’d have to be something pretty impressively better about them to sell me. Their flash-only website is a wee bit (!) annoying, though. Style over content… hmm.   -Dave — work: dga – at – lcs.mit.edu                   me:  angio – at – pobox.com       MIT Laboratory for Computer Science           http://www.angio.net/       (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed…)       bulk emailers:  I do not accept unsolicited email.  Do not mail me.

Response:

if Nike started producing good shoes at reasonable prices, I’d consider them. ____ I was at the USA Men’s 8K Championships this year and 7 of the first 10 places went to guys wearing stock off the shelf Nike Air Streak shoes.  Yup…the green ones.   In fact the awards winners were all Nike runners. 1   Mebrahtom Keflezighi/Nike             2   Chad Johnson/Nike                 3   Abdi Abdirahman/Nike               Hummm…Nike "Sweeps" again.  OK, Nike can pay more for the best talent, agreed, no dispute.   However to say Nike does not produce a good shoe for middle distance running is simply ignorant (Sorry Dave, gotta call it for what it is). The Air Streaks are "good shoes".   Accept that, deal with that as much as it pains you.   Guess what…you can get them for a bit over $50/pair at rrs w/15% off coupons.    That’s a great price for this class of shoe.  In addition, the Air Streak II is a "good shoe".   And furthermore, Nike makes some models of XC running shoes that are "good shoes". So just for real world context to the discussion/thread….as you Dave assert Nike does not make any good shoes and they’re overpriced anyway…..the exact shoe that the leading middle distance runners in the USA wear and train in (Yes, I spoke with them) can be purchased for a little over $50 at rrs.    In sum, 1) Nike makes a good shoe, 2) You can’t beat the price for the class of shoe. …and Dave…FWIW….in the 8K Men’s Championships….the first Asics guy came in 19th place.  (heee heee).   OK ok ok…just kidding here and having some sporting fun w/Dave…..chill…it’s Monday and we all need to have some fun.   Andrew….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if Nike started producing good shoes at reasonable prices, I’d consider them. ____ I was at the USA Men’s 8K Championships this year and 7 of the first 10 places went to guys wearing stock off the shelf Nike Air Streak shoes.  Yup…the green ones.   In fact the awards winners were all Nike runners. 1   Mebrahtom Keflezighi/Nike             2   Chad Johnson/Nike                 3   Abdi Abdirahman/Nike               Hummm…Nike "Sweeps" again.  OK, Nike can pay more for the best talent, agreed, no dispute.   However to say Nike does not produce a good shoe for middle distance running is simply ignorant (Sorry Dave, gotta call it for what it is).

  Silly me – I thought we were talking about shoe quality, not which company has the cash to sponsor some seriously good runners.  I’m not too convinced by celebrity Nike spottings.  An amazingly biomechanically efficient runner like Meb Keflezighi can probably go sub-23 for the 8k wearing high heels.   (And I’d pay to watch it).   I won’t deny at all that Nike sponsors some really good people, and I think that in that regard they’re doing a good thing.   The Air Streaks are "good shoes".   Accept that, deal with that as much as it pains you.   Guess what…you can get them for a bit over $50/pair at rrs w/15% off coupons.    That’s a great price for this class of shoe.  In addition, the Air Streak II is a "good shoe".   And furthermore, Nike makes some models of XC running shoes that are "good shoes".

If you’re asserting from personal experience that they’re good shoes, then I concede.  I haven’t used them.  They list at $90, which isn’t as silly as the Spiridons, but the rrs price is better than what i sometimes pay for my asics.  I was unimpressed with their shoes the last time I tried them, but that was over 5 years ago. in 19th place.  (heee heee).   OK ok ok…just kidding here and having some sporting fun w/Dave…..chill…it’s Monday and we all need to have some fun.  

  ick, don’t remind me.  way too early, legs sore, want to take a nap, not sit in my office.   -dave — work: dga – at – lcs.mit.edu                   me:  angio – at – pobox.com       MIT Laboratory for Computer Science           http://www.angio.net/       (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed…)       bulk emailers:  I do not accept unsolicited email.  Do not mail me.

Response:

I like and run in Nike shoes (Span and Streak) and also have shoes from other manufacturers. But there is nothing special about the Spiridon, in fact the reviews I’ve read have slammed it pretty hard. There are tons of shoes in the 10 oz range with good rearfoot cushioning and stability. Here are a few: Asics DS-Trainer, Mizuno Maverick, Adidas Rotterdam. These are proven shoes that have gotten good reviews. These shoes have been advertised heavily and I think people are getting sucked up in the Nike marketing hype. For what it’s worth I have cut and pasted some of the Runners World UK review. Runners World: "There’s also no forefoot Air, so the toe-off area doesn’t feel well cushioned. The contrast between the cushioned rearfoot and the hard forefoot doesn’t make for a smooth ride. Wear-testers also found the midsole narrow in the forefoot, which further limits the appeal. In short The caged Zoom Air concept shows promise, but the Spiridon doesn’t really deliver. Only efficient, narrow-footed runners, who aren’t too bothered about forefoot cushioning will favour it. There are plenty of better shoes around for