Question:
In my tri club we operate a periodised training approach and do monthly time trials over fixed distances (and routes on the bike). Ideally these should be competitive to ensure 100% effort. Here’s where a club environment helps. Also the time trials should come at the end of each easy week.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use? A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… i
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An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect. I am not "experienced" in what I am trying to accomplish, namely, run a marathon under 4 hours. I have a lot of experience running recreationally, that’s all.
Man, my IQ must have dropped fifty points when I wrote that thing, I’m as bad as Bush with my malapropisms. (Regardless of your political affilitation you have to admit that he says the strangest things.) It was my earlier run, yeah that was it. The blood had rushed from my head. Obviously I meant _in_experienced runner. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race. Would I not want to run faster, during training?
Over time you’ll naturally run faster. But you want to keep most(?) of your training runs LSD to develop your aerobic capacity for endurance events. If you run faster you’ll use different metabolic pathways and you’ll get far less aerobic benefit. Speed and tempo work is different since it’s training the muscles to work faster/harder, not for longer periods at higher loads. I remember somebody mentioning that LSD develops capillaries and mitochondria and stuff, but they may have been thinking about _Star Wars: the Horrid Prequels_.
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You can use it for some things, but predicting race times isn’t one of them. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race. Would I not want to run faster, during training?
No. You want to run faster during racing. It doesn’t matter a whole lot if you run slowly during training runs, and increasing the pace of your aerobic training runs won’t necessarily make you go faster. The systems you are trying to train with easy distance runs respond well at low intensities. Push the pace and the anaerobic system picks up the difference — so you don’t get an increase in training effect, because the extra work does not place load on the fitness components that you are trying to train (and it is not intense enough to load the components that get trained with speedwork). You should do your speed work at a good pace, but day to day training runs should be at a comfortable pace. Speed work is a better predictor of race performance than training runs. On of the posters in this forum, Dan Stumpus, used to run very fast marathons (close to 6 minutes per mile) and use aerobic training runs of 8 minutes per mile. That’s like you doing your training runs at 12 minutes per mile. Even my relatively fast 7:15-7:30 minute per mile training pace is more than a minute per mile slower than my half marathon race pace. Also, if I just don’t feel like running fast on a given day, I might run with a friend at a much slower pace — 8, 9, or whatever. As long as the miles go into the diary, it’s all the same to me. Likewise, Steve Common used to run comparable times to me, yet often trained much slower (as slowly as 10 minutes per mile) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
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<< Donovan, this does sound counterintuitive to me. My objective is to run my races faster that my last race.
Counterintuitive, Indeed. For speedy pace, Rapid race across the finish line, Well, that’s an age-old story. Counter, it may be, But alas, indeed, Wisdom abounds, surrounds ~ Burried deep in the interstices of time, Reflected ryhme, deflected Soul and soundings Triangulated Back through time. Baffling, yes. And sure, what a mess! Nevertheless, the key Will be found and told. Hark! What’s that I hear? Ear to ground, Turning round, Seeing some strange Shape… _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A
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Or you could maintain a database of all runs
that’s what I do (Access, described in earlier, but fairly recent, post). but how do you compare a 4 mile run in the morning with a 6 mile run in the afternoon?
that’s what I don’t do As Lyndon pointed out, it’s not day-to-day progress that you monitor, but over time. Also, you probably are doing different workouts on different days – working different systems – so there’s no real reason why they should be directly comparable. Having a fixed routine that you "test" every so often, like Sam described, would be a good way to go if you have fairly constant conditions. I usually measure progress by either how much more of a regular route I can run, how few walk breaks I have to take up a hill or on a route, or how I feel after a particularly hilly or long run – or whether I can add more hills or distance to the route. I may notice that on my relatively easy hills, I can go in multiple speeds now (almost springing up the easiest) and still be below LT (used to be just *doing* the hill was barely below LT). (Actually, the fact that I can run all the hills on that one system without messing up my Achilles is *substantial* progress compared with 2 yr ago.) In prior years, I was running mostly in winter and the snow or mud conditions just varied so much from one run to the next that it was hard to judge anything. This year, we had a hot, dry summer (less field work so I could run), so the paces (as calculated later; I run by effort) are *somewhat* similar (within a few min/mile) for different types of runs. But I envision them as a scatterplot, not specific numbers. I’ve considered trying to do 6 or 12 min or similar tests, but my conditions just vary too much from one week to next to make it meaningless in most years. The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here 
Dot — "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." – Cave Dog
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<< Having a fixed routine that you "test" every so often, like Sam described, would be a good way to go if you have fairly constant conditions. What’s a good test? For personal best? For ALL systems. Many, many thanks. My appreciation in your bank. Systems? Now a scattershot approach for me. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A
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snip< The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here Dot
I use my log to keep a basic record of volume, time in my case, and to stay motivated. When I started keeping exercise logs 4 years ago my consistency went way up. Similarly, I keep a food log with my own kind of short hand for foods and portion sizes. The food log isn’t an accurate food count in any way, but over time it helps me make better food choices. – Tony
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip< The primary purpose of my log is to track volume for injury prevention, but I also use it for clothing, food/fluid issues as well as "performance" (very loosely used here Dot I use my log to keep a basic record of volume, time in my case, and to stay motivated. When I started keeping exercise logs 4 years ago my consistency went way up. Similarly, I keep a food log with my own kind of short hand for foods and portion sizes. The food log isn’t an accurate food count in any way, but over time it helps me make better food choices. – Tony
I keep a very basic log of running, walking, and biking (one program) that I mainly use to keep track of miles on my equipment, though it’s nice to see mpm times decline over time. I have a different log for my weightlifting and a separate record for my golfing (handicapping, etc.). Last but not least, I keep a pretty decent food log. Even though it seems like a lot of logging, it’s only a few minutes out of my day. Each of my logs has come in handy in various situations. BTW, the runner’s log I use is Palm based and a cool little $5 program. Jenn
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pencil and paper work great.
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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use? A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…
I use my own Excel spreadsheet, Mine starts as a periodization plan for the entire year, with training cycles, races, and every running workout figured out. Planned rest is also included. Then, as I go through the season, I replace what I planned with what I actually did, adjusting planned training as needed. One thing that I think hasn’t been brought out is that you shouldn’t get too caught up in day-to-day fitness changes. Many experienced runners can tell lactate threshold, MLSS, recovery pace by feel, and if you do these on consistent courses, yes, these can tell you something, as can time trials. For example, I have a standard warmup that includes a jog, drills, and buildups/ strides, and if something is significantly slower, it tells me to cut back the planned workload (maybe I’m getting sick, and I haven’t quite figured it out yet). But you shouldn’t obsess about these things. Even a time trial can vary week to week due to a lot of things, such as stress, illness/health, sleep, how fast you ran your last recovery run, maybe even what you had for lunch. If you ran your 400 session 1 second/400 slower than you ran last week, it might mean that you didn’t work as hard or didn’t get enough recovery…but it might mean that it was 5 degrees warmer than last week. Don’t worry about such things. Also, performance improvement is not necessarily a straight line: there can be plateaus and even dips (because you increased your training load) along the way. It’s long term improvement (over a training cycle, season, or year) that matters. Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!" –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson
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It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year. If Temperature changes throughout the year.
Sorry, I was thinking "month" and typed "year". It depends on where you live, of course, but you might see a change of 10-15F at the same time of day over the course of a month but see a change of 30F over the course of a single day.
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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use? A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…
You could take a look at this: http://www.zdap.com/running/article.htm Paul
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<< For the purposes of this discussion, fitness means race performance. Something that doesn’t translate into race performance doesn’t count. indeed, contextual definition of terms. (Aristotle! that you?) _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A
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<< Because that will cause you to train your "carb oxidation system", which will make Og the low carb caveman god unhappy, and he’ll hurl rocks at you from above. Don’t try to run it fast. wise, rocks hurt. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A
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2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time. A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity.
The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example). 3) compare your times. If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two.
This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve. But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch. And that’s it. It’s simple, easily incorporated in your workout schedule, and provides positive reinforcement that you’re making progress. Or early warning if there’s a problem. Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs.
It might or might not. As Donovan points out you can use races to measure improvement in specific events, but you may go months between races and
I think it would be desirable to race more frequently. Unless you’re living in a place where races are unavailable, I don’t see much reason for a competitive runner not to race quite often. I also pointed out that you can use speed workouts, and because the intensity is higher, these are not subject to the same amount of variability as training runs. conditions will inevitably be different.
This is also true of training runs. An interval workout on a track minimises the variation (because it’s less affected by heat than a race or steady run) Or you could maintain a database of all runs but
that would be really silly. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
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2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time. A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity. The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example).
This is the first that I’ve heard it could change so quickly. I thought change was on the order of one point/year. BTW, an experienced runner can go by feel. An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect. 3) compare your times. If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two. This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve. But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch.
I thought her program was for collegiate level runners. But that doesn’t mean much since she could have easily dumbed it down for her audience. Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. It might or might not.
When would it go the other way? N.B., I’m not refering to a change of a few seconds over a run of many miles, but perhaps something like a 5 to 10 second/mile change. I also pointed out that you can use speed workouts, and because the intensity is higher, these are not subject to the same amount of variability as training runs.
I actually found more variability in my speed workouts but that’s almost certainly because of the unfamilarity. conditions will inevitably be different. This is also true of training runs.
It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year. If it’s unusually warm or cold or rainy or whatever some run you don’t use it for comparison.
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2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time. A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity. The problem is that it is not a precise measure of intensity. Over a period of a few months, your maximum heart rate could change (for example). This is the first that I’ve heard it could change so quickly. I thought change was on the order of one point/year.
It can change depending on how heavy your training is. My max heart rate has varied by as much as 10 points or so, depending on how heavy my training is at the time. BTW, an experienced runner can go by feel.
True to some extent, but it’s not really predictive of race performance. Usually if your training runs get slower, it’s a sign that you’re struggling with the training load, and if they get faster, it either means that you’re reducing the training load, or adapting to it. They are too far from maximal to mean a whole lot. An experienced runner like Ig and me can use the extra information even if it’s not perfect.
You can use it for some things, but predicting race times isn’t one of them. The point I was trying to make to Igor, is that increasing the pace of training runs should not be a training goal. 3) compare your times. If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two. This will only happen if you’re riding the beginner gains curve. But when this is the case, the most you’ll need to know that you’re making progress is a stopwatch. I thought her program was for collegiate level runners. But that
Then I disagree that aerobic training runs will get faster over such a short interval of time. This has not been my experience. Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. It might or might not. When would it go the other way?
When you increase training load. N.B., I’m not refering to a change of a few seconds over a run of many miles, but perhaps something like a 5 to 10 second/mile change.
I don’t believe a 5 to 10 second per mile improvement in race times will be as easy to detect in training runs as it would in a race or an interval workout. I actually found more variability in my speed workouts but that’s almost certainly because of the unfamilarity.
If you perform the same workout twice on a track, and you do the workout correctly, they shouldn’t vary much at all. The average times for my last 4×1200m workouts vary from about 4:07 to 4:10 and most of that variation is accounted for by a monotonic downward trend. It’s only one of many training runs, not all of them, and conditions don’t change that much over the course of a year. If
Temperature changes throughout the year. it’s unusually warm or cold or rainy or whatever some run you don’t use it for comparison.
The problem is that any day of summer is unusually hot compared to any day of winter. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
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I am confused. Let’s say I run a 5.6 mile run on a routine basis. Let’s say that I ran it at 56 minutes before, and after some training, I can run it at 48 minutes. Would that not be an improvement?
If you get faster by over a minute per mile, even you will be able to work out that you’re getting fitter without using a spreadsheet. Why can’t I try to run as fast as to not be too uncomfortable?
Because that will cause you to train your "carb oxidation system", which will make Og the low carb caveman god unhappy, and he’ll hurl rocks at you from above. Don’t try to run it fast. Races are the best measure of progress. The next best is a particular speed workout. For example, I can use my 4×1200 track workout, because this is a workout I often come back to. Training runs are not very useful as a measure of fitness though. I agree that races are the best measure of progress, but would performance on a known run not be a decent measure of progress?
If you’re getting faster by minutes per mile, it will be plainly obvious. You won’t need a spreadsheet to work it out. To detect progress on the order of seconds per mile, you will need a maximal effort on an accurately measured course. A favourite speed workout on a track is ideal for this, as is a race. My fast speed if 7:52 mpm, measured over one mile. I thought, perhaps foolishly, that I would run at about 10% slower speed for much longer.
Depends. Mile times don’t reliably predict longer distances. My bests: 1 mile: 4:51 5 mile: 28:27 (5:41 per mile) I think I could at best do about 5:20 per mile in a good 2 mile race. (I attempted this year it and couldn’t quite do it, but it wasn’t a great race. the 5 mile and 1 mile races were.) So 10% slowdown only gets me as far as 2 miles. But there is a lot of variability in 1 mile time for a fixed 5k performance. This is less true of distances 5k through half marathon, which relaibly predict each other, because they largely depend on the same thing (aerobic fitness) Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
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<< Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi Cheers! Indeed. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A
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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof).
I’ve been using an idea Lorraine Moller said she uses with the people she coaches. She calls it a "benchmark" run. 1) find some reasonable distance and course. I decided on 6 miles since it’s about half of a typical long run and I had a dirt course with only one street crossing. (Well twice when you count out and back.) 2) run it at the same aerobic intensity every week or every other week at roughly the same time. A HRM is very useful to ensure you remained at the right intensity. (You don’t need to check it during the run, just make sure the average HR was within a point of your target.) 3) compare your times. If your training program is working you should see a drop every week or two. Sometimes you’ll have bad weeks but the overall tendency should be down. And that’s it. It’s simple, easily incorporated in your workout schedule, and provides positive reinforcement that you’re making progress. Or early warning if there’s a problem. Improved aerobic conditioning seen in one run (these benchmarks) should indicate improvement in all runs. As Donovan points out you can use races to measure improvement in specific events, but you may go months between races and conditions will inevitably be different. Their benefit is that they make it easy to compare yourself to others. Or you could maintain a database of all runs but how do you compare a 4 mile run in the morning with a 6 mile run in the afternoon?
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You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness.
Isn’t this the very definition of fitness – amount of work that can be done with the same effort? N.B. I’m not saying the improvement can be translated to meaningful units, just that improvements in your training run pace on an identical course indicates an improvement in fitness.
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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use? A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… i
I use Excel sheet I made myself. Aside from races (the ultimate measure of performance), I do frequent "field" tests. For instance, I do a 6 minute all out run. The farther I go, the faster I am getting. I also use this data to set training intensities. I also use my regular lactate threshold runs as a good check on fitness. There are numerous websites that allow free logging of training. I just found them to be more trouble for me than they were worth.
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You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness. Isn’t this the very definition of fitness – amount of work that can be done with the same effort?
There are many problems with using training runs as a measure of performance: (1) it’s difficult to verify that "effort" is indeed constant. If the level of effort is 100%, as in a race, then there is no guesswork. And no, a heart rate monitor isn’t in my opinion good enough to reliably and actively measure "effort". (2) performance on submaximal exercise may not reliably predict performance in a race. I’ve had good race performances even when I wasn’t doing my training runs at a very fast pace. (3) If the progress metric is training pace, then it follows that performing the training runs as quickly as possible is a training goal. There is an obvious problem with this. N.B. I’m not saying the improvement can be translated to meaningful units, just that improvements in your training run pace on an identical course indicates an improvement in fitness.
For the purposes of this discussion, fitness means race performance. Something that doesn’t translate into race performance doesn’t count. Of course if you can do the same training run a 30 seconds per mile faster and you’re more or less aerobic, that indicates an improvement in fitness. But you don’t need a spreadsheet to work that out, do you ? The big improvements in fitness will be plainly obvious, and the more incremental gains cannot be reliably measured by training runs. Therefore, using a spreadsheet to track "progress" in training runs serves little purpose other than to provide idiots with hours of amusement. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use? A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks… Spreadsheet. I use it mostly to track milage across different shoes, and keep a diary. Makes sense, thanks. Do you have pre-measured mileage for your runs also?
Yep. There are a number of high and low tech ways to do this — measure it either with a GPS, SDM like the Fitsense or Nike, bike meter, mapping software (e.g. Microsoft streets and trips), or just estimate it. Tracking performance is simple enough — enter some races, and keep track of WAVA scores or some other performance index. Well, I would like to see if I can run my distances faster than before.
This subverts the purpose of your training, because you’re not supposed to be pushing the pace on your training runs. You will probably notice that your training runs gradually get slightly faster, but this is not a reliable way to measure improvements in fitness. Races are the best measure of progress. The next best is a particular speed workout. For example, I can use my 4×1200 track workout, because this is a workout I often come back to. Training runs are not very useful as a measure of fitness though. Since I run different routes, it would be good to use a spreadsheet to compare and keep track of various routes.
Yep. I don’t think it’s useful to try to set a PR on every single workout, or to do exactly the same speed work each time. I agree. I want to get very used to running with a higher speed than I did at the half marathon. I will try to run as far as I can at about 8.5 minutes per mile, for some time.
Before you do that, pick up a book … any book. I think you mentioned you’d picked up the Glover book. 5k pace is not appropriate for day-to-day training runs. You can’t run fast and long. You can run fast and short (speed work, heavily carb dependent!!! trains vo2 max and running economy) or slow and long (more fat utilisation, because it’s partly metabolic cellular level training). Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
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I as I trying to modestly ramp up my running, to run for higher speeds and longer distances, I would like to know if any of you use any free methods of tracking performance and progress (or lack thereof). Any suggestions for spreadsheet type solutions? Maybe there is some freeware or some such that I could use? A linux based programwould be preferred. Thanks…
Spreadsheet. I use it mostly to track milage across different shoes, and keep a diary. Tracking performance is simple enough — enter some races, and keep track of WAVA scores or some other performance index. I don’t think it’s useful to try to set a PR on every single workout, or to do exactly the same speed work each time. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
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||| ||| Are you the Ignoramus from rec.running? There is such a hatred from ||| some people there for low-carb. I eat this way out of necessity, ||| now, and I feel so much better. I also run better but I am not ||| going to defend myself against the close-minded wheat-eaters. || || Yes, I am Ignoramus from rec.running. Some people there are so || emotionally attached to wheat etc, any time I mention that I run and || am on low carb, those people become practically berserk. It is || ridiculous to watch. Kinda the same thing over in the biking newsgroups. Don’t really need to make a big deal out of it though….unless someone starts knocking LC while not having a clue….